LIVE Garden Report: Celtics Trade Kristaps Porzingis to Hawks in 3-Team Deal
hard hat’s all about showing up to play hard doing what it takes to win if you want to cement legacy win another he’s your third center you don’t want to pump him up too much but it’s hard not to this is maybe the most I’ve ever agreed with you it continues Bobby the madness continues it’s our second breaking news garden report in the last 24 hours the show as always is brought to you by our friends over at Prize Pick download the app use the code clsplay5 get 50 instantly in your account when you use prize pics prize picks pick more pick less prize picks run your game uh but we’re here to talk about uh another blockbuster trade for Brad Stevens and the Boston Celtics in their quest to shed payroll and Chris Porzingis and look Bobby it was rumored expected reported that Holiday and Porzingis would be the ones to go and bang bang within 24 hours of one another they go the Porzingis deal for those who don’t fully uh know the details porzingis to Atlanta in a three-team deal terrence Mannon the 22 pick going to Brooklyn and um the Celtics get and this is the part that’s going to hurt a little bit uh it’s uh George Zyang and a second round pick in a three-team deal so coming off of yesterday Bobby and I’m curious because you guys did the show without me um and you know the reaction I think generally was positive to the uh to the hall that they got for Drew Holiday um the second round picks and a talented basketball player that you can choose what to do with resign trade at the deadline um you know uh you know trade now for for for other pieces or play them can play um this one is totally different uh this is a straight salary dump the Celtics are now officially under the second apron uh which is a big deal for them uh but they did it all in one fell swoop and if anyone questioned whether or not money was motivating everything that was going to happen this off season I think this deal kind of seals it you’re muted right out of the gate for sure and they could go even further here they’re within $15 million of that tax line now i think that’s a pretty easy target to get to if they want to here and they’ve just done an incredible job if you want to say that money movement was the goal here this summer of doing so without massively damaging their asset base they still have two picks in the draft tomorrow and Thursday which is pretty amazing and they moved off the two guys that it felt like were priorities to move off here when it came to that money uh dumping so I like the holiday trade this one it’s creative and they got another team to incentivize the Nets taking on significant money here but you’re obviously not getting much back here the second rounder is a Cavs second rounder in 2031 uh George Niang I don’t know if that guy is going to even be part of what you’re doing here this year i I suspect that there could be much more that happens here beyond all this because looking at this roster right now especially and we’ll get to the Horford and Cornet stuff later now that Porzingis is out the door it’s a pretty incomplete roster it’s definitely a roster that’s not pushing deep into the playoffs at the moment and so does that inspire you to do more here are there some ways that you could utilize the salaries you have now because the big news with this trade is that you’re no longer a second apron team so you can do multiple guys going out you can do more trade flexibility so you can do more work here feasibly after this that makes you better now or takes that step back and that’s the thing that we’ve debated here John is whether they’re going to take a big step back now after a couple moves like this or whether they’ll try to alter the roster to build a team that can be competitive around Brown and then eventually when Tatum gets back it’s hard to judge it’s almost like a draft it’s incomplete you can’t judge it until the whole piece comes together because uh saving money one place you look at the trade on its own and it looks like you just traded a fringe allar and your one true center uh on the roster uh for uh a guy who’s probably not going to play a minute for you and a second round pick which is a straight salary dump that single move gets you completely under the second apron because Nyang is slated to make and that’s the beauty of those three team deals the money’s moving in different directions nyang is making 85 I think next year porzingis was making 30 and then boom there comes 20 something off the books and you’re on second.5 yeah 22.5 in one shot so look it’s incomplete because you never know what that flexibility uh gives you um to be able to do stuff down the road so I’m not going to say this is horrible however if you look at the types of trades you can do Bobby there’s a holiday trade and a porzingis trade and I do find it odd that people seem to be celebrating Brad for both because they’re two totally different trades uh holiday trade maximized value you got a really good player in return and assets you didn’t have to give up any of your own um and you got off a contract that was a long-term contract right uh that you were really worried what that’s going to be paying out in a couple years from now and Porzingis was the opposite it was a oneanddone deal you could have just kept him and let him walk and taken the savings at the end of the year i’m not sure what you gain by trading him now for nothing because you could have traded him at the deadline or you could have just held on to him made other moves to get under the second apron and let let KP play the year out and then let him walk what did you gain here nothing george Nyang in a walk year and a second round pick nothing you gained nothing so this is to me at first glance clear that Brad Stevens was given a mandate you must get under this second apron to start the season we’ve heard a lot of flexibility about they don’t need to they can wait they can get to the deadline they could go nope this to me reeks of ownership saying we’re going to shave a lot of tax dollars before we take the court next year yeah and they saved about 200 million already here and they’ve saved $200 million which is important but let’s not pretend this is Brad playing 4D chess this is Brad being given orders and then Brad executing these orders in a very very good way so far because again the holiday deal some value in return and the Porzingis was watch me move all of this money in one fell swoop but it’s a massive step back in terms of where they’re going to be on the court it was there a Porzingis deal you could have done that saved you a little money made you a little more competitive and got you more return probably but that’s not the one they did they did the let’s save as much money as we can deal and that that is harder for fans to stomach yeah for sure and the Nets thing you cashed in on that there was only going to be a couple opportunities for any team around the league to use some of the Nets cap space and they did that here so I think that could be part of the timing as well uh so again you know where I was at John i was in favor generally of starting the year with Porzingis until you could get value back for him and they clearly did not here in this that’s what I thought yeah they favored the money coming back and who knows listen they know about his health and what he’s been to them on and off the court and all that stuff and maybe they just didn’t feel good about moving on with Porzingis as part of this picture here particularly when he could get injured or have anything else go on to start the year and have the value get hurt even worse and less opportunities to move that contract in full and all of that so yeah there’s definitely things that could have happened later there’s definitely things that could have happened in the near term that were possible all the trades I was looking at were bringing back guys who were making 20 million or so and having those guys be stop gap players or trying to move on from those later so if you’re looking at guys that would come back and you’re just trying to flip again that’s not a better option than this like a Smart or a Veovich even or guys that just aren’t going to do much for you i don’t think there were guys like a Simons that could come back and maybe play for you and be part of this thing into the future potentially so this is where you’re at you were trying to move off money in different places now the question I have is does this allow you to retain Hower does this allow you to retain Cornet if you can keep three players on this roster potentially here including Horford who are part of this thing going forward for a couple more years here I think you feel much better about this what are you keeping what if next year if you’re punting on next year what are you even talking about keeping Horford for what benefit is there cuz he could potentially play multiple more seasons how many more seasons he’s 100 years old i love Al Horford but like we’re looking at we’re looking at early it’d be a minimum we’re looking at earliest two years away hi Noah yeah for sure and so I’ll tell you who was happiest happiest about this trade and that was Noah um the reaction muted muted muted muted noah muted it’s for the best can you hear me now yeah yeah yeah no i said I wasn’t happy i was actually bummed at the timing because I was like I’m finally going to walk away from my house for the first time in 24 hours and then the trade breaks so So what’s your reaction um I think it was probably I mean for them to be able to take on so little money in one move and not give up any assets was probably the best they could have done at this point i mean we knew he wasn’t seen favorably around the league after the playoffs the question was do you bring him on heading into next season i think the fact that they’re below the second apron right now gives them a lot of flexibility as far as future trades now you can aggregate salaries which I don’t even know what that means because none of the trade scenarios that I’ve been looking at have involved aggregating players right we we know that that’s like the big change with the second apron um I’m not I’m not a Nang fan so it’s not like I’m excited about the return but you effectively got Drew Holidayiday and Christoph Porzingis off the books which you kind of knew was going to happen without giving anything up and getting a a player back who may or may not be a part of the future i’m really only thinking about Simons because I don’t think Yang is necessarily relevant here so I I don’t I don’t mind the first few transactions here it’s It’s all gonna be about what happens next if this is it and this is all they have here and they don’t change much it’s definitely not great if it allows them to keep some other pieces I think it’s probably for the best because listen we’ve talked about Howard that’s a valuable player that’s a guy who signed longterm at minuscule money who’s can continue to help you for years to come here if you can have him be a $10 million a year 40% three-point shooter if you can sign Cornet to a deal that keeps him attached to this thing for you know three four years here and when Tatum gets back he’s part of the center dynamic there as you start to reshape that into the future that’s a positive here if you’re not keeping those pieces and the salary shedding just continues here then you’re in a tough spot and you’re probably looking at more of a reset at the very least here and there’s definitely some further scenarios you could go here John where this is actually a rebuild so that’s the thing right now you can look at it straight up and say very plainly they’re worse today than they were yesterday that’s a fact um and we we knew there would be a step back the question was how much of a step back i know we talked about it a lot um in the leadup here and you know Noah I know you’d said a few times that like they’re going to be looking for value um and in the Simon’s case you can argue there was some value there you get a younger player with an offensive skill set a couple second round picks and you’re looking more ahead to the future because you’re not going to be uh stuck with Holiday’s contract as he kind of ages out you can’t say that about Porzingis this is clearly and this is what I said right before you jumped on this is the first indication that Brad was told in my estimation uh we got to we got to get this tax bill down so do do what you got to do but we’re coming under that second apron and we’re doing it to start the year and that’s what he’s doing um I mean is there a world in which they all of a sudden start making trades and go back up over it sure possibly but I I think highly unlikely so I think that this to me indicates that Brad was given orders and Brad is trying to execute them as best he can but I think we can move past the idea that they’re trying to either remain competitive for right now uh versus just flat out save money which it appears is what they’re trying to do my compass this entire off season has been they are going to get below the second apron it’s a question of what is going to get them there there was no world where they were going to get above the second apron starting next season with Jason Tatum sidelined and having been in the second apron for multiple seasons so now they are there the question is what is happening next year if this is it to me this was like they do want to stay as competitive as possible and they salary dumped Porzingis and Drew Holiday got back a player that can help them win next year in theory and kept Jail Derrick White and Jaylen Brown right like those are the two guys that’s the big question i don’t know if that’s the case they might they might now in two hours maybe another trade will be announced or tomorrow morning or whatever so I don’t think that any of these moves indicate anything new as far as the front office’s approach like we knew they wanted to get the below the second apron they’ve done that in a faster sequence than I expected i thought it was going to require like four or five trades of getting a player back trading with another team getting a player back trading with another team yeah the Porzingis thing i never thought that they could take that little money in return i expected it to be a little bit more challenging but they didn’t really get value in return so I guess that was the trade-off there so I don’t think this was a direct so that’s my question Noah that’s what I’d asked earlier let me ask your opinion on this because I asked Bobby there’s two types of trades you can make in this scenario right you know that you have you’re trying to shed salary you can make the trade where you take on salary but get something valuable in return like Simons and picks but you took on a $27 million salary albeit an expiring one expiring contract but you had to take money back versus a deal where you take no money back you could have traded Porzingis there’s definitely a Porzingis trade out there that saves you less money and where you’re getting more return because someone else is sending sending salary over San Antonio yeah we’ve So there was a trade there that makes that keeps you closer to competitive but you chose not to do that you chose simply to just get to just dump the money so and that that could be that that could be though because they don’t want to make have to make another move to get below the second apron it could be it could allow you to keep could allow you to keep Hower sign uh Luke or or or Al and then have a little bit more flexibility go into the trade deadline see what you want to do there depending on your standing and then head into next season not resigning Simons with actually all of a sudden completely under uh you know you know the tax completely forget the first apron clear of any restrictions and gives you the ability to wheel and deal more freely and then you can go do to other teams what they’re doing to you right now which is go get the players they can’t afford you can absolutely build it back so that might be the case i wonder how low can they go and if they want to keep going and if they are really looking if they have an eye on a year from now I think you got to keep going because right now this feels like you’re one foot in one foot out yeah i’m not as worried about the tax thing that’s an ownership thing if they want to keep paying some amount of it yeah right so get all the way under yeah you you can wiggle a little further below the first apron line i think you have some more trade flexibility there and you can start adjusting the roster more once you get to that point so there’s some things you can do lower on the roster here right like wave JD save 2 million there uh you can do something with Tilman if you want like there’s a lot of different wiggle room you can take advantage of at the bottom of the roster to probably shake below the first apron line the tax thing which is 15 million is probably where you’re moving off Hower when you’re moving off of some of the other stuff further down the roster and you’re still considering Jaylen White offers at that point and like you said John seeing how far you could go in that scenario i don’t think this is necessarily a sign that you’re going to go down those roads but I still think like it’s been from the start you’re in the process of considering everything here and to me Noah did you have better options than this with Porzingis like you mentioned if if you’re bringing back something for Porzingis that’s sizable moneywise you’re moving off multiple other things just to get below the second apron line now you can stop here and stay with what you have and see how the season goes or you can go down that road if you really want to of offloading more stuff here and obviously Simons is part of this discussion now as well so the alternative John to me I I can’t think of that’s the reason I wanted to keep Porzingis here is I didn’t think there’d be any good deals for Porzingis so it was a matter of did you want him clearly they didn’t do you want to get off as much money possible or bring back a player that you could flip later and they chose to get off as much money as possible there and again like I said earlier you really only had one shot at the Brooklyn cap space and they used it here and they got another team that incentivized Brooklyn to take on that money so to me it’s a fine deal i’m not doing back flips down the street if they were getting back Okongu or something here I would be doing back flips down the street but this is just a moneymoving deal we knew they were going to happen and there weren’t really any great options here john we could be sitting here and saying “Oop the Celtics have no picks this week because they moved off a couple picks to get off these two contracts and they didn’t do that so it’s fine it’s not great they didn’t they didn’t.” But you know anything short of acquiring something in the middle of the in the middle of the first round you don’t really have picks to speak of you’ve got flyers you know late round second round i mean that is what it is they need those they look they need them because they are bankrupt but those you do not you have to you have to hit a home run um you know which you know there’s one of these every couple of years one or two players that absolutely hit at this point in the draft but the the the odds are stacked against them that they’re getting anybody who’s making them better or even really making an impact on the roster in the next five years from where they’re picking right now so unless they’re able to move up or into a different spot even then who knows but I mean realistically just playing the percentages and I don’t want to hear outliers and oh Jokic and Dort and blah blah blah chances are they’re not going to get better in the draft they’re not not until they go not until they amass enough talent to trade into you know enough assets to trade up into a place where they can pick a better player or they go rock bottom and they’re drafting higher in the draft or a lottery team or they trade someone like Brown or White and soar into the top of the draft other than that the draft’s not making you better you need it because you got to fill out the roster but the picks they’re picking is basically like the new modern NBA of like we need a bunch of second round picks so we can fill out players 12 through 15 on our roster cheaply rather than have to pay veterans and that’s kind of where they’re at right now with their picks um is roster filler because they can’t afford to pay real people so here’s the thing i think it’s really hard that we’re evaluating uh this move in the middle of the you know in the middle of the all the action because you have to see it all a lot of these yeah a lot of these second round picks could very well be flipped it’s possible now you can aggregate multiple players guys assets like the Jordan Walshes of the world like those guys that at the end of the bench that were never going to get traded now you have a conversation around like who do you package up here right it’s not super subsizable but to me I just saw this tweet by Adam Kaufman i’ll read it because this kind of captures where my thought process is at and again I hate this i hate these trades i hate the fact that you have to shed money but we knew all this coming into it we knew that it wasn’t going to be fun he says “Can’t imagine anyone thought that the Celtics would be able to shed salaries for Christoff Porzingis and Drew Holiday without including any assets instead they acquire a 20 point per game score a bet with multiple playoff runs and three second round picks like it doesn’t feel great but that’s that’s kind of like exactly what happened they they didn’t include any assets as they showed those players and they got back one player that’s pretty promising and another guy that’s like kind of harmless on a very low you know salary well I never liked him to be honest like he’s not he’s one of my role players in NBA that I’ve never really liked but like that that’s we knew this was going to happen right like I would be bummed if they were sitting here they just traded two second round picks alongside Porzingis because so desperate to get off that contract or they you know got rid of Drew with I mean that that’s where we were a month ago though like we knew this was going to be the situation well sort of it’s funny because when that did come when I read that Kaufman tweet I thought of you Noah because when when we did talk about the first time a report came out I can’t remember if it was against the validity of it was Fiser yes exactly yes and you were like that’s not true you know that sounds like noise so but it’s very possible that it was noise so I’m not going to you know uh you know celebrate uh savings you know like yay we did it we saved like there was no celebrating this week though that’s the reality like what what could we be celebrating this week uh nothing but you know it sucks but I I still think there’s quite a few people who are not I remember Noah the first show we did when we’re like I was like “Okay guys do you now recognize how bad it is and how bad it’s going to be?” And you were like “No.” And I was like “Wait what?” I was like “Everything’s bad they’re going to get rid of people they’re not going to get good stuff back it’s going to hell this team’s going to be brutal like they’re taking a massive step back and you guys were like I think they’ll be okay and I was like wait what like I So where do you think they are right now we We either saw this coming or we didn’t i I I I still think they’re going to be okay you cannot You can say why is that an impossible stance i can say that these first few moves are not like they’re they were good moves while still having faith in where the team’s going to be next year and moving forward like I I don’t get why those things are at odds they’re not at odds but it’s for like next year so when we’ve talked about the the the the idea of like going into the toilet for next year I I honestly have always thought the hard reset is the best thing because I think they can get back up in one year but they got to they got to they have to scrap next year 100% there’s this this maybe competitive maybe we’re a playin team maybe not that we’re that we’re looking at for next year i don’t know what that gains you at all the worst place you could be is stuck in the middle if you want to if you want to do it I would say go for a hard reset i’m not saying trade Jaylen i do think you need massive value to trade a player like Brown because you have to feel really good that the pieces coming back are going to make you better soon and not just a bunch of lottery you know lottery tickets and see if one of them hits you have to get value in both the younger players coming back and future picks and you’re hoping to get your SGA Paul George situation out of that absolutely i would consider something like that but not dump for the sake of dumping but I would look at next season as a I want to win as few games as possible next year and then hope that I can come back up there i’m wondering what’s going to accomplish that because I don’t see I don’t know what it is that they’re going to be doing next year like I I I’d be on I like Simons the player i think I think move moving him creating more space creating more money getting more picks doing whatever you can to to stockpile assets to try to load up for a year from now is going to be save money and and and stockpile assets while leaving as much intact as you possibly can for a year from now I think I I think has always been the play but for next year I mean I I don’t know i mean you’re looking at let’s assume Horford doesn’t come back you’re starting next year with two of your six your six starters from last year you’re starting the year with two of them yeah and so you have to consider the ability to stay above water next year versus making those difficult moves and you can make some of those on the fly eventually there’s no rush to trade Jaylen he’s signed for many more years to come white’s even signed long term here so my problem with the strip it down tank approach and is just being an anti-tank guy in this sport in particular especially with where the lottery odds are is that it’s going to be extremely difficult to get into those positions and then you need luck once you get there because there’s still the Wizards of the World there’s still the Hornets all these teams that you can think of that are going to be in those positions that are going to be extremely hard even if you tried to get to yeah you’re going to keep some of this roster together here you’re not going to get rid of everything just to get into that position is like you know LeBron in the draft next year or you know it’s it’s just such a massive risk to take a tiny percentage chance at that you’ll get the next piece that’s going to pair with Tatum and then eventually build around that it just starts a massive process that could take years and years and years here so you can address some financial issues you have right now which is what they’ve done you can still make some moves here to try to remain competitive and in the mix in a conference that’s wide open here i think there’s a better path to getting to the top of this conference John than there is to get into the bottom the way it’s shaping up right now while having something there when Tatum gets back and if you don’t feel good about Tatum getting back to where he’s going to be eventually you’re screwed regardless at that point and the tanking scenario that you’re laying out is going to come eventually there’s always going to be time to tank right now I think you have to remain as competitive as you possibly can and have some infrastructure in place for Tatum to walk back into yeah uh so the season could go in a million different directions you can’t force it no going back to the trade itself did you expect anything better here were you holding out hope that the Porzingis trade would have yielded something better in return or would you have uh preferred they keep him yeah I I honestly didn’t think that he would have much value just because like I hate to say this because it feels like mean but his his playoff run was one of the worst we’ve we’ve seen for for a player of his caliber and the thing around the He’s gonna be amazing in Atlanta though i’m I’m behind this move for the Hawks i I still have faith in him as a player i think we’ve gotten way too low on Porzingis i’m not low on him at all i actually think you know he’s been so consistent in Boston during the regular season think that there are very legitimate like playoff concerns around his availability and his production because he hasn’t been able really once in his career string together like a productive and a healthy playoffs and that was going to be a question mark for any team that looked to trade for him that is planning on being in the playoffs next year the Hawks are in kind of a weird spot where I don’t I honestly can’t figure out what they’ve been doing over the last few years but they’re more of a regular season team and so I think that for him it’s a less you know for them it’s a less risky move after the seeing the return that Drew Holiday got last night I didn’t think that they were going to be able to get back picks and a player that has value that’s on I think it’s a positive asset i started thinking to myself maybe I’ve been undervaluing Porzingis as well and it turns out I wasn’t so I think Drew and Porzingis are in two very different situations while Drew is on the far more unfavorable contract and there’s the questions around him making $37 million at age 38 he is a winning player that has a proven track record and a lot of teams that want to elevate their winning i think we’re in the mix for him porzingis it’s a lot less of a certain thing just because of how things have played out over the last few years so you have to be in a very unique position to say we’re actually gonna you know take a flyer on him again he’s on an expiring deal so it’s a not a very risky move you’re just not going to give up a whole lot that’s why I thought that’s why I thought he had more value if you were willing to take salary back because he could be the thing that puts a team over the top he could be exactly the type of thing someone is looking for and if you can but the the problem was he was expiring which benefits the team that’s getting him more than the team that’s getting rid of him so I thought he would have some value but you would have to take salary back in order to happen i think you’re talking about Harrison Barnes Nicolovic Buddy Heield like guys like that it it it maybe would have been a little better than Yang but not by much and they would have just been more expensive guys who would had to move on we were talking about Marcus Smart look I I’m I’m okay with it i’m team tank you know meaning I’m team I don’t give a crap about not tank i’m I I’m team I don’t care about next year at all so the fact that they take a massive step back with Porzingis if they don’t fill that hole or fill out the roster with other moves coming later um then they’re going to be worse uh considerably worse next year and again you’re talking about I mean what are we talking about here no Holiday no Porzingis no Tatum next year uh and possibly no no Al um it’s going to be worse i I’m okay with that i’m okay with them riding out a not so great team for a year and building for the future that’s fine i I just I guess I was where you were Noah after the holiday thing too thinking in the same way that maybe there’s maybe we’ve undervalued these guys and maybe the rest of the league all of those reports were everybody trying to you know suppress the market a little bit and reality was that a lot of teams would like a Chris Sporzingis on there so you know I guess not but it from a fan perspective just seeing that return I think the initial vibe is like Yeah this is where we were the night they went down because it felt like Porzingis was gone that night you saw the way he went out it’s unfortunate how it happened and unfortunately this is going to be a big part of the story of his tenure in Boston is the fact that this was the last image you had of him playing in the uniform certainly you’re going to remember the championship and the game one and all that but this is the recency bias everybody’s going to have with him is that he was never available and that he was sick when they needed him most and I don’t know how you could control that if you’re him i thought he was amazing when he was available for the bulk of those two years and uh I wish they could have kept him i wish they could have had the Brown Porzingis combination continue into the season but even Noah was saying to me last night on our live like there’s some financial realities here that just aren’t going to make that possible and it would have taken some massive tearowns in other spots to probably keep them here i understand that now but so that’s what it comes down to is if we’re all in agreement that they were not going to be a second apron team next year which I know sucks for the fans and if I was a fan I’d be like why do I care about them being a second apron team but they weren’t going to do it right there are basketball penalties and you’re not a contender so it’s kind of just it’s it’s not logical to be there well to John’s point you had some time to get below but but here’s my thing so So do we like the fact that they’re already below and now they have the ability to offer Luke money potentially now they have the ability to retain like maybe they even you know maybe they even get you know keep Simons now i thought for sure they were going to trade him for less money so there’s I I think if we are if we are all in agreement that they had to get here which sucks i’m not excited i’m not like they got below the second apron like let’s throw a party but I knew they had to get there so the fact that it happened in two moves and that these were the moves feels to me like this is kind of a pretty optimal outcome and like it’s not a celebratory thing it’s not like this is probably the least fun trade you could have a trade to achieve a financial goal um and I know for a lot of people it’s going to be like well why do they need to reach that financial goal it’s just if you talk to people around the league everybody knew this was coming like this was not a surprise that they were not going to have basketball penalties and also not contend for a championship with Tatum sideline all year like that’s just not nobody no NBA team would have done that you have to reset the clock now the tax clock has to reset too at some point but we’ll see if that and and that is that is important to look at because it’s not if you didn’t make this trade or if you did but traded didn’t get rid of all the money so let’s say you did a trade similar to the holiday one where you took back twothirds of the salary or more in a trade and you only saved another 78 million and you still got another 10 million or whatever it was necessary to get under that second apron that means you probably lose Hower as well right now if your only goal was to get on in a second apron it’s possible that this trade in fact is uh Porzingis uh uh for for Fornyang Hower and Al and a second round pick that’s how you have to look at it if that’s all you do if there’s no other trades because those other three would have been gone if you don’t make a trade like that right you you wouldn’t be able to resign uh Luke or Al and you wouldn’t be able to keep Hower he would have been a straight salary dump trade uh you know into somebody’s mid you know midlevel or something like that so if they retain all of these people that’s essentially what this trade becomes it’s not just what you got it’s what you can keep so you have to look at it that way because otherwise those guys were gone and I think that that changes the perspective a little bit plus also there could be other moves and other things that you could do which frees up more money so who knows i also have to thank No and I’ve grown increasingly confident that I was going to keep playing in next year i’ve grown increasingly confident that he’ll be back on this team next year even especially given that he’s been at the facility pretty consistently in recent weeks so I think they have to feel good about him being back who knows where the Luke market’s going to go i don’t think you know until free agency doors fly open whether he’s going to get blown away with something or not but I have to think with moving on from a Porzingis you have some confidence that there’s a starting caliber center on this team next year because we’ve talked about it now with this decision if you lose Porzingis Al and Luke which is possible here what is Kada Tilman a draft like I I can’t imagine how you move forward with that kind of front court again unless you’re tearing everything down yeah I definitely I I feel much better about their chances to retain Luke and or Al at this point than I did when the season ended um because of how quickly they were able to get you know in a better financial spot um and also just like you said Al being around I don’t think retirement’s on the table like it does seem plausible um is that enough or Luke and Al enough in your front court i don’t think so so you still need some solution there because we already saw Al you know at his age he’s not going to be able to play every night and I think Luke Alone doesn’t feel like the solution no and I think Luke’s going to have a bigger role if he does resign um but you’re probably you probably need something else so the thing that’s that’s tough it’s like we’re almost evaluating like there we’re so in the thick of things right now that I I like I don’t know what’s going to happen next i just I do know that I I like the first couple moves here in the sense that you still have your core intact and you achieved uh kind of undeniable financial so you could I want to ask you guys a question on it like so Bobby and Noah you guys have your head wrapped around this a little bit more than everybody else i want to explain to people exactly what they can do now just that they’re under the second apron that they couldn’t do before so I want to get into that u we’re going to read some of your super chats we’re going to talk about um whether this trade uh uh like increases or decreases the likelihood that they move off of either Jaylen Brown or Derek White so we do have a little bit more to discuss in this show we have a 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that second apron that could potentially uh get them players back or you know allow them to you know make type of trades that they couldn’t have made before so the big one’s the mid level they get that now which is what like five six million so they’re 7 million under the second apron line they could fit in a guy on a mid level which obviously doesn’t matter much for Horin and Cornet because you can pay those guys whatever you want anyway uh but if they did want to bring in a free agent from the outside who’s a salary under that space that they’re fitting into um under the second apron right now they can do that noah mentioned the other one sending out multiple players in a trade as part of salary matching now works so if it’s a couple minimums to add six million to a trade if it’s two salaries like White and Simon’s going out the door to bring back an even bigger contract if you’re trying to take a swing here or if you’re just trying to offload a couple different salaries together to do some of the financial stuff we’re talking about you have the ability to do that now you can sign a bio guy too if that matters like you do want Bradley PL i don’t think so but yeah there’s a couple things this opens up the only thing is there’s still 7 million I believe over the second apron I want to say so or the first apron rather so they still can’t take in more salary than they send out it still needs to be dollar for dollar salary matching here so that would be the benefit you get a little more wiggle room with trades if they could shed seven more million dollars here which you know if they can just dump the yang somehow they’d have that flexibility too here so a little more flexibility for sure and Noah did Bobby miss anything no I think that’s the main thing i mean there’s the long-term ramifications but as far as their off season flexibility like the fact that they can now aggregate salaries like it just it makes like there was like not viable everybody on the end of the bench was not going to get trained when they were second go get Giannis you couldn’t trade for Giannis before now you can go get Giannis go get And this is why I spent zero time in the trade machines this summer because I knew how volatile everything was going to be and now I’m back square one with everybody else because it’s really like it’s a completely clean slate it feels like um and I don’t know i mean there’s a possibility that they’re pretty much done with the major moves and there’s just going to be some moves around the margins now resigning key players um there’s also the possibility that these are two moves down and in two hours we’re going to get a Jaylen Brown notification like those are both viable options at this point and they’ll indicate completely different situations and scenarios for next season which is why it’s hard to evaluate so it it’s just it is kind of wild though because we knew this was coming we knew there were going to be massive moves but now you’re thinking about it like three out of your top six players are definitively not going to be on the roster next season including Tatum who’s going to be injured so it’s just going to continue to feel like less and less of a familiar group here and I’m viewing the core right now as Jaylen and Derek as far as like core players that view part of the future everybody else trade and Jason no in addition to Tatum like those are the core because Tatum’s not getting traded so it’s like those are the two guys that are I I want I want to hear what the offers are for Brown before we say you’re keeping Brown that’s all I want to see uh we’re going to get to some super chats as well uh and we’re going to talk about Jaylen also I want to I want to shout out Mo who who’s been who’s been just tagging along terrorizing people here on uh on the Garden Report Celtics fans ever since the Knicks series uh hanging out here saying uh Brunson took a pay cut and ego’s too big in Boston to make it work i do have to say that Derek White definitely took a hometown discount to remain here as well um so not entirely the case as far as that’s concerned um a couple other things worth noting that we didn’t talk about here the uh Celtics will generate a 22.2 2 million trade exception for Chris Porzingis and a 4.7 million trade exception for Drew Holiday that in a year you know those things expire in a year a year from now that could have some value uh you never know what that would be uh I know we made a huge deal about those things back in the Gordon Hayward you know era Bobby and uh ended up really not netting you anything of tremendous value but um when you’re looking at moving off money they’re probably not helping you that much because those are for teams trying to take in money exactly exactly so I don’t know what that’s going to be but it is there uh as well let’s get to a couple of super chats here no I had to dip out uh might join us again if we’re still going in a little bit uh here but I wanted to get to some of our uh super chats in the show uh chatter god I’d be the first to admit I’m effing scared that could apply to so many things going on in the world right now but yes uh with the Celtics right now I wouldn’t be scared i would be curious that’s so I don’t want to do the whole Stevens thing John right but don’t these two moves at least tell you that they’re operating with some competency here like between the posturing that we’re not giving up assets to move off these guys the creative way that they did end up moving money again that they had to move here to some degree it it gives me a little more confidence that they know what they’re doing here i was never worried that Brad doesn’t know what he’s doing i was I I wouldn’t even say worried i think I don’t think it’s these owners and this uh executive i think any owners and any executive would be in the same boat we got to find a way to get rid of some of this money and yeah there’s a lot of different ways to do that you have to be happy with Holiday and you have to recognize the value in getting under the second apron in one fell swoop which you did here with this Porzingis deal even if you got no value in return in terms of assets coming back the value is in the savings so yes they’re both very competent basketball moves just hard to get excited about them as a fan um by the way Chatter God also throwing out here i don’t want Nyang on our team i don’t even know if he plays a minute here um I would bet against it and he’s throwing another one out here i would respect JD uh and Walsh and picks to Mavs who knows about that what What were you saying Bobby a couple things i I definitely if you were picking between Yang and Hower those two are pretty redundant right their skill sets their roles you’re probably moving off to 8 million and it’s not as much as moving off 10 million like you would with Hower but you want to keep Hower right and Yang’s not necessarily a Hower replacement he’s a good shooter he’s a good player you heard about the playoff experience right but you want to keep Hower here i think that’s a objective they’re trying to accomplish with some of these moves that they’re making here because Well Hower has value because he has real value he’s a player who can have value because of his salary it’s a it’s a cheap contract and you need those types of contracts on your team you need Pritchard and Hower are the type of contracts you need to have competent players competent rotation players you’re not paying $30 million those were the guys it was easiest to say get well not Pritchard necessarily but Hower was so easy to say just get rid of him because he’s like the seventh eighth man and it was easier than some of these other names that we’re tossing around but it didn’t go as far and like you said those are guys that are critical now to having a sustainable competitive team so the fact again John I’m not doing back flips over the savings here and the second apron dodging and all that you’re excited about what this could potentially allow you to keep here and Hower was going to be a tough loss that is not a guy you could easily replace within the next few years it took three years effectively to develop him cornet same deal y couple years to develop that guy um I have a feeling Brad isn’t done here definitely we think that that’s happening as well thank you Croatian Kid uh Jace Mark we are only down three starters we got them right where we want them we’ll be fine uh X3 I think John’s assumption is wrong you get off KP’s money now because you need to be able to aggregate salaries to get an available target here’s another person on the Giannis train i don’t know about that uh but dare to dream right uh Nate me Noah and Bobby will make up the bench next year i like that we’ve been playing a little bit working on it yeah we’re getting there and then uh Dana Mills these changes will be good for the coach let’s see him develop coaching player development skills so before we get to Jaylen do you want to take a second on Simons cuz hold on hold on one second and I will say can KP resign for us next year chief this is Benjamin Inmar uh as well hey guys thank you for the super chats the uh money is disseminate is you know uh paid out to the hosts so uh thank you guys for contributing it it it it helps uh us continue to pump out the free content which of course we love to do um go ahead i got to say about Simons I don’t want to wait too long on him here but now that it does look like he could potentially be part of this roster next season talk about a guy Joe would love now the defense is scary and Joe is a defense guy i think he’s worried about playing a liability on that end but a guy that can generate an efficient eight nine 10 threes a game while Tatum’s out he was still in that role right i mean that’s captivating for Joe so I love Simons and you’ll remember I was among the people um you know who didn’t think the whole Jaylen for Scoot and Simons uh deal from a couple years ago was was was a bad one uh Scoot’s not lived up to his billing so that definitely doesn’t look as good now but I like Simons a lot because of the offense he could generate i never understand a player like this i know he’s not physically like a guy like you know like Drew Holiday you know he’s the opposite of Holiday stout you know right what I’m saying is I know he doesn’t have that physicality but like he’s 63 with insane athleticism uh and a good leaper and he’s quick i think his wingspan’s good too and he’s got a 67 wingspan or plus so he has every element you would expect from a decent defender which leads me to believe it’s either coaching or effort but not something that’s not fixable i feel like you could I mean this guy has a reputation of being you know out of college he was not considered a weak defender but this is something a reputation he’s developed as a pros of just a volume scorer and someone who doesn’t give you know care a lick about defense you do have to wonder about whether being on a bad team or being in a role where offense is really all that matters um affects how seriously you take things on the defensive side um and you do wonder if a change of scenery or a different you know uh coach or coaching philosophy or or different system could change it because it’s not like he’s got slow feet or he’s so undersized that he can get bullied like at his he doesn’t have great size but he should be able to be competitive even for a smaller guard um so he’s 6’3 he came into the league around 183 i think he’s at like 200 205 now 69 wingspan 83 standing reach and I’m looking at his draft report here when he was coming out and intriguing defensive potential with his combination of length and athleticism was a plus inconsistent effort and focus on defense needs to get stronger was a minus for him so So strength I understand it focus is stupid like focus and effort is like okay show effort and have focus yeah Sharon that’s easier said than done with a younger player who maybe developed some bad habits on a losing team i mean that’s why I don’t like tanking John again creating those environments for young players like that yeah it’s not great but I don’t think it’s a lost cause there i actually I like the player a lot and I actually think there’s more offensive upside um there that that that you could tap into i’m excited about this again not because I love him as a player i definitely think there’s some stuff he’s going to work on there but we talked all year long John and maybe this is part of the team building process that they’re working on right now is going from being a team that’s walking the ball up and falls to 30th in pace at one point and Joe’s saying “Oh you know pace that’s not how you calculate pace and blah blah blah.” We saw that they became a slow motion very stagnant team when it came to their speed this season so to get a guy athletically that’s a dunk contest winner right can really make some plays happen around the rim with his leaping ability and is a quick guard i mean when’s the last time they had a quick guard John like Isaiah I mean it’s been forever since they’ve had a guy with some speed and athleticism at that spot so he definitely brings a dynamic that they’ve been missing on this team and you need a couple other guys to get there it’s nice to have hopefully Jaylen’s back to that level after the surgery here and all that but they needed to get faster they need to get more athletic and to still have I mean this guy’s probably what a top 15 shooter in this league so you’re talking about an elite skill set with those shooting this is why like I wasn’t doing back flips last night John but when you saw a name like this coming back for Holiday what were we talking about like Daniel Gaffford uh Bogdan Bogdanovich like just salary filler coming back to you and this guy is still 26 no I coming from a bad team this is a real piece you got back it’s crazy i I like the player i always have um and I I I do wonder what he could do in a better system better environment around him uh so I I’m not I I was shocked that that was the caliber of player that they got back if I was on the show last night that would have been my you know my instant takeaway two seconds like solid here my instant takeaway would have been like I’m not sure this actually even makes them worse you know like you swap defense for offense here like it’s this wasn’t a bad basketball trade you know what I mean yeah it’s crazy so and you know there was some reporting last night that they like him and how he fits in it was just a money thing now so Back to the point we made at the beginning of the podcast here you didn’t get much back for Porzingis you might have allowed yourself to keep Simons if that’s a player you like here so that’s the benefit of making a move like this today there was always going to be one trade that was tough to swallow for them this summer and Porzingis was probably going to be the one just because of where he’s at and how it ended and the lack of suitors for him around the league now on the other side of this trade I do like Atlanta a lot right now as I look at them you got Okong Wel you can play some double big with Porzingis an inside guy and an outside guy jaylen Johnson I think emerged as the best player on the team for parts of last year and then you still have Trey Young and Dyson Daniels who became one of the best defensive guards in the league last year so I put I think this puts Atlanta in the conversation a little bit closer to actually contending here they’re probably better than you right then you Orlando made a move that makes them better than you and Indiana’s now the big wild card right John with the Hallebertton thing but they should stay above water and remain competitive so I think did you ask us earlier where do you see the Celtics being as it stands today you’re probably talking like seven eight right now right just off the top of my head New York’s up there Cleveland’s up there certainly so that’s already like five six teams above you so you’re in that playing territory some other stuff’s got to happen here you could sink lower if you lose some more stuff here um but I these are just crafty moves to me like again you’re not celebrating cap savings you’re not celebrating trade exceptions and all that different stuff but I just think they’ve allowed themselves to maintain more of this roster and again to your point the Portland thing was a great move when in comparison to some of the other stuff we were cooking up there possibilities so yep thank you Blazers again right they gave you holiday in the first place for a relatively manageable package right a couple first and Brogden and Rob now you’re sending them back out there when you really needed to dump them and they’re doing you that solid too so yeah this was uh this was yeah pretty good stuff from them the last couple days it’s incomplete but I’m happy with these moves yeah um yeah again I’m I’m not happy with the Porzingis but I understand I understand it as a necessary evil um the um what are we going to do without Porzingis’ quotes next year oh man this team got a lot more boring uh yeah here’s the thing though you lose Porzingis’ quotes but you also don’t have to sit through Tatum press conferences so it’s a bit of a wash uh there but um Celtics couple other things celtics trying to move into the lottery um as a report out there right now and that multiple teams have shown significant interest in Jaylen Brown and I think we’ll kind of bring it home here i’ll throw in a couple super chats because a couple of them asked that question as well here um uh who says no to Brown for Trey Murphy and Herb Jones i’ve seen Trey Murphy’s name come up a bit so yeah I love New Orleans and what did they do today they traded CJ for a column for that was part of the pool deal yep uh and then there’s the other one and this is from Turkish um uh would you do Brown for Castle plus number two pick and more i think you have to think about that no you do that but that’s not happening but it sounds like it’s not happening uh J Jimmy 3 uh in Brad I trust um in uh do you guys think it’s worth trying to get Coupe i don’t look and then 2026 draft loaded you’re 100% right this is why I want to tank there’s like three first there’s three number one picks um next year so I don’t want to get into that i’ll say it again though John can I tell you my conspiracy theory go ahead and Ben Benjamin wants to ask can KP resign for Chief here’s my wish ready they they do the San Antonio trade to get up to two and Cooper Flag pulls an Eli Manning and tells Dallas he’s not going to play for them because he’s dead he’s set on playing for the Celtics and he and he throws a tantrum and forces a trade to Boston and that’s what happens that’s my dream scenario i’m speaking it into existence so you just set out the year right that’s the threat you’re just not going to play in the NBA you’d go to like Australia or something i don’t know i don’t know you’ve seen college you’ve seen it in a couple of other sports happen where just said “Nah I’m not playing for you.” Um but that’s my that’s my I’m I’m I’m speaking it into existence cooper flag pulls an Eli Manning and says “I’m not playing for you.” Yeah I think it’s fun i I don’t think it’s likely right i think I don’t care it’s what I’m doing it’s It’s I like it i like it that hasn’t happened since when’s the last time that happened in basketball i’m trying to think relax we’re having Spencer Hayward days so yeah it definitely I mean there’s so much money on the line right and there’s a lot of money to go back to college now too and I know he considered that but it’s really the setting the clock on your second extension especially for a guy who’s a number one pick just going to be a massive number once you eventually get there so you have to start playing in the NBA to make you know the four years go by that gets you to that contract or three years effectively because you sign after the third so yeah it’s tough for guys to pass up on that no one’s done it we’ve talked about a million different 1B is going to be another one too with the rookie extension like would he actually pass that up and go into free agency after four years i don’t know but uh or five in that case if you take the qualifying offer so I think Cooper’s going to Dallas so So here’s the thing we’re talking Brown right what’s the report today that they’re getting significant by the way no Noah was going to jump back on and texted and I told her we were talking about Jaylen Brown trades and she’s like “I’m not coming on.” Not mad about that go ahead she’s dealt with enough of our wrath on this topic we’re almost there right we’re We’re almost home yeah we’re almost uh to a solution on this and I still think it’s going to be these days but what’s significant offers i’m going to say I don’t see Fuzzy jumping in here as much as he used to so I wanted to give a shout out here but this is kind of where I’m at here is I’m okay like I I don’t need I don’t I I’m fine kind of next chaptering this i don’t need to hold on to everything that had happened before which is why I’m open to everything i’m not saying trade everyone makes this makes the mistake like trade Jaylen as if I think that that’s a thing that they have to do because Jaylen Brown is holding them back no I’m just open to let’s see what the try a new thing we’ve done this for nine ten years okay it’s been pretty good but I’m saying it might be over so rather than ride it out into the into into h you know in into the beyond and just watch it sputter and you know end up with Brown and Tatum and nobody around them and a team that’s like “Oh one of these guys requests a trade because it’s bad.” Like I’m okay if it if you move you move it’s okay i personally I would rather the idea of the the be the best players on your team playing their whole careers here i think that that’s great also but I’m fine if they move into a different direction here and here’s Noah fresh off of her radio stint um jumping back on here just in time for her favorite conversation jaylen I should when you told me you were talking about Jay I should have just rejoined i know that’s what we thought was happening and that was talking Jaylen uh we’re not we’re not we’re not saying anything here we’re just simply saying the report of several teams showing interest in Jaylen Brown so I’ll just ask you Noah it’s not about I was qualifying my Jaylen stance here it’s not trade Jaylen because Jay you’ll be better without Jaylen but I I have always believed that if Brown’s perceived value is as high as Celtics fans think it is or another team out there thinks that this is my alpha and I’m going to get him and willing to do the Paul George deal do the Harden deal do the do that type of thing I think it’s insane to not not do it or at least listen to it i don’t understand the mentality of I well you can’t trade Jaylen Brown like I think that that’s I I think that’s insane um so is there anything that would entice you to move off here anything that’s been talked about um you know and right now what’s the most attractive the number two pick and castle which is neither of those things seem to be on the table but like is there anything out there where you’d be like for that i would consider it somebody had said something about I mean or if a team offered five first round picks you know are you thinking about it so I think the first thing I’ll say John just to your point about like people saying “I would never that’s insane to trade him.” I actually think if you’re a Celtics fan that’s like a very normal stance to have right now like you should feel that way about your franchise players and that’s why Brad Stevens is not a emotional fan but he’s the cutthroat general manager and he might have to make moves that you know are very unpopular with the fan base and I think it’s I think it’s okay hey like I see a lot of people online being like I you we shouldn’t even entertain this discussion and obviously every discussion is entertained right they they had a conversation I’m sure about whether they were going to trade Jason Tatum for God’s sake like Nicole Jokic today their general manager said you know Joic could get traded like there’s no such thing as being untouchable in the NBA that being said I think my biggest thing with Jaylen Brown why I’m I’m not excited about the prospect of trading him is that he is he’s a very proven star in the playoffs and there are actually not that many guys that fill that box and so if you have reason to think like we are never going to be able to field the competitive roster again with Tatum and Brown based off of how we feel Jaylen’s going to be post knee surgery how we feel Tatum is going to be post Achilles rupture financial restrictions that maybe we’re not aware maybe they’re not willing to spend as much luxury tax taxes as we would think they would then that’s why you would shop him i think if you think that there’s a world where you can get come back to this core and get back to where you were like I don’t think that door is closed and in fact that door that combination of players probably gives you the best chance to win just because we already know it works um and we already know those guys are a lead on both ends and that’s really hard to find so yes if they offer them seven first round draft picks like you know we’re rational here and we’re talking about things from a financial standpoint of the team building standpoint like it would make sense to make that move if these are good you know good picks like you’re talking about the Paul Jordan trade like that type of return of course you can’t say “Oh I love Jaylen Brown i don’t want to trade him.” But I think most likely you’re not going to get a return that’s going to warrant that but we we’ll see what it happens like if he gets traded we’ll all of a sudden see what what was the best they could get for him and that’ll answer this kind of long-standing question well the tax thing’s a big deal here right because if they’re not an ownership group that’s willing to pay tax that’s where you get forced into a move like this for non- basketball reasons and probably make a big mistake and how many teams around town John for money reasons have just made awful decisions to move up some of their best players you want to at least put yourself in position financially to be able to keep Brown and Tatum together here by paying a little tax like we talked about with them being like 15 million or so above that line if you’re going to make a mandate to get below that tax line that’s where you’re losing Hower that’s where you’re losing some of these other pieces on the periphery of the roster horford Cornet potentially so you can stay below that tax line and that’s where you end up in a spot that you’ve talked about John which is it’s Tatum it’s Brown and it’s nothing else and you’re just hoping some young players come through or you get lucky with some draft picks or a miracle happens that allow you to build a roster around those two because if you’re not paying tax if you’re keeping Brown and Tatum together you’re probably not going to have a great roster around them unless you get super fortunate so that’s the challenge of continuing forward with those two i’m optimistic that they’re going to pay a little bit of tax to try to keep enough of this roster around it as possible i think that’s been the signal from this front office so far is that they’ll allow the front office to do what they need to do to field a competitive team but we won’t know until we see it we won’t know until we see it so I mean if we’re we’re going to have a ugly show tomorrow Noah John if tonight they shed more salary and get below the tax line and the moves aren’t great that’s when we’re going to be like uhoh here comes Chisum but I have confidence that they’re going to be able to keep Hower keep Horford keep Cornet keep some of those guys just to have a team together around Brown and Tatum and specifically Brown for this year because obviously Tatum’s not going to be in the picture now as far as them being blown away Noah which is what we’ve heard right like if they’re going to move Brown it’s cuz they’re blown away what What does that mean because again everyone can say Cooper flag and castle in two and just these crazy things that are never going to happen but what’s like a realistic offer that would actually blow them away per se for Brown I think of a a better version of what the Desmond Bane return is like Desmond Bane was what five first round picks yep and they were and we’re talking Orlando first round picks which I don’t think are going to be worth that much uh because I think that team’s going to be good for a long time so to like if you’re talking about a team that there’s reason to believe that team will not be good during those years and you’re talking about a hall of first round pick that can reset a franchise in today’s NBA that’s that’s off the board now that that’s that’s antiquated thinking I think like windows are shorter now because of you know h how long you can remain competitive because of the CBA like it used to be like oh god they’ll be good for s if you get five first round picks you’re talking 10 years out you know or picks and pick swaps six seven eight years it’s impossible to gauge whether a team’s going to still be good a after that everyone’s going to we we’re seeing it in real time right now so I do think it doesn’t you have to be a team that’s good now to want to make a trade like that so you know who intrigues me so the only way a Warriors first rounder in three years are intriguing i feel a little bit better about that that team having valuable first rounders milwaukee Bucks like if your star players are 23 like I I still think you know you can’t perfectly predict how the first round pick I know but if if you know you can’t perfectly predict these things but there is a first round all first round picks are not made equal right some of them have a good chance of being a lot of picks others are going to be late first rounders so that is that’s the magic move right because they feel they’re going to be good and they can trade some of their current players to get picks back eventually so yeah the Warriors are an interesting one I don’t know if the money would even work there probably not um Toronto is a team I’m keeping an eye on just because they’re such a wild card in that no one wants to go there they’re pretty aggressive they have a decent team put together at this point that’s trying to point toward winning and they have all their picks intact they’re not a good team right now right they’re picking like number ninth tomorrow right so they could give you a top 10 pick they could give you a comparable player he’s not the athlete Jaylen is but he’s a comparable player in terms of the role he’s played during his career and I think his productivity to some degree and RJ Barrett who’s younger and then you have some other salaries that you could throw in there if you’re Toronto so that’s a team they did the Kawawaii thing right even though it was risky even though it was a guy they were probably going to lose this is a guy going over in Jaylen who would be there for the long term because of his contract and how good would they be immediately probably not great but then you at least have a foundation of players that you could add to to eventually win up there because again you can’t pick and choose when star players are available to come to Toronto if you have the opportunity so like would you take five first from Toronto including number nine tomorrow RJ Barrett Yaka Purle now that Porzingis is gone um what else do they get up there like Grady Dick they have a lot that they could potentially offer and I don’t know how fans would feel about something like that but that’s at least realistic like number two Castle that stuff’s not happening i’d rule New Orleans out now even though I like Murphy I don’t know what they’re doing and they’re really expensive now too i mean who are some other Houston is Houston still in play now yeah Houston still has the assets they didn’t really give up a whole lot for Kevin Durant so most of their young prospects like Reed Shepard and you know Cam Whitmore like all those young guys Jari Smith Jabari Smith like a lot of their first round picks they still have like Phoenix didn’t get much back so I assume that wherever Kevin Durant went that would be one less team that talk about Jaylen Brown but honestly like that is definitely not the case like they could still be in the mix and they honestly they they are certainly in win now mode any team that signs a 37y old Kevin Durant is trying to win in the next few years so it’s possible they put together a packet for Jaylen and Eay wants to kind of regroup with that with in that sense so it’s also possible that it’s going to be a team that we’ve quite literally not heard be connected to Jalen at all because that’s how it went with Drew Holiday and I think that’s kind of how this front office moves and it could be just a team like that just wants just really wants a star and like even if it’s not the most fiscally responsible move they just really want a star on their team and it’s been a long time yeah i mean that’s the thing is we we joke about it like we have no idea what’s going to shoe is going to drop next and it could drop like tomorrow um like a big one you have to assume though if you get through the draft would you assume Brown and White are no longer uh in play or you think that that’s they could still trade after the draft uh I don’t think it’s still trade after the draft but it will depend on like or if the Spurs make a big move tomorrow and it doesn’t have to do with the Celtics that’s like a team that was one last game that they’re also the Yiannis drop so yeah you’re still waiting on Giannis if if any team’s wanting to add a star Giannis is so far ahead of Jaylen on their priority list in terms of let’s keep our assets together here so we can make a move like that so that probably hurts the Brown market to some degree i don’t you know we do our media thing Noah where we try to assess these reports and why they what where is this thing about them getting significant offers and all these calls about you know white and brown about like where is that like helping the Celtics leverage here is like I I don’t I wonder where that’s coming from just all this hype around the Celtics getting blown away with brown and white offers and they don’t want to move them but you got to consider some of the stuff they’re getting here like I find that interesting that that’s out there today that’s pretty pretty consistently the line of reporting coming out of the Celtic situation is that there like I think there are moments in time where a team is clearly not willing to trade a player like teams are calling and the answer is no and I think that Ch’s reporting indicates that’s not the case right now with Jason Jaylen Brown and Derek White um it also indicates that they’re not trying to trade these guys and so I don’t I honestly think nothing has changed as the reporting has gone over the past few weeks the only thing that’s changed is that they were able to get below the second April without trading one of those guys so I never thought that that was going to be a financial move like you’re not going to get rid of a core player like that as a salary dump like I think that there were better candidates and we’ve seen that um so I don’t really make anything of it just it just confirms that it’s the conversations are ongoing and we may at one point get a report that’s different that the Celtics are no longer open to trading Derrick White and that’ll be the end of that but we are not at that point right now well that’s the thing after these couple moves here we haven’t gotten like Yeah no right those reports Noah will only come out after trades fall through and then you do the damage control of saying we have never had any interest or intention of trading this person but they’ll never Yeah remember that summer that he was in the Durant talks and we’re sitting here like why won’t they say something why won’t they because he was just getting hammered that summer because he was in the Durant talks and then eventually I think they said something down the line I forget but after it didn’t happen that’s how it works you know so you’re not making these uh declarations out here at you know but look and and if you do and it’s only to strengthen your hand the way the way the Spurs have done with the reporting of they’re not including Castle in any deal for Giannis and they’re not at all interested in the number two trading the number two pick they’re locked in on That’s all [ __ ] you know so it’s fine but like I’ll throw it at you though John because you are you’re you’re the Trey Jaylen guy are you What do you want back from him if you’re going to move him what are you looking for i am the wrong guy to ask because I’ve always thought his value isn’t as Noah Noah had mentioned the playoff performance stuff i’ve always thought um Jaylen’s value is slightly overhyped and that you could recreate him in the aggregate uh with pieces and set yourself up for greater success in the future it could also blow up in your face because anytime you trade for assets those picks have to hit so it’s either going to be you know you have the possibility for it to be the greatest move you made or a disaster the the reason I am more leaning towards it now is I I’m just playing the percentages that I think if you wait around for both Brown off of his surgery and again it’s not like he had the worst injury in the history of time but we’ve seen how these things can go in a couple different directions but between Tatum and Brown coming off injuries and surgeries the likelihood that both of them are the same version of themselves coming out I think is small and so I think you have to recognize that the Tatum and Brown era is over and that’s where I’m coming at it from is like you don’t want to you want to believe you know that mom and dad are going to live forever and Santa’s you know mom and dad go there right now santa but it it doesn’t look it doesn’t always work that way and that’s that’s Yeah I don’t know if you guys are reading the chat but the chat just did a controlled prank that totally worked on me did you guys see this everybody in the in the chat started saying that Jay and Brad got traded to Chicago and I just literally I completely thought it was real and I started pulling up Twitter and refreshing and being like “My notifications aren’t working.” So I don’t know how you guys all It was like 20 people at the same time so it was very believable so I just want to give a shout out to the chat for um I’m turning the chat off now but it was it was very successful i don’t even know where that came from it was like you guys have a group chat like I don’t understand so well done chat so yeah there was one other thing out there i guess it was from Bullp right one of the things was holidays P no but Bobby just to just to finish that that’s my thinking on it is I think that so and then my calculation is so you’re willing to take less than most people would be no no no it’s not willing to take less i think you have to be aggressive in your pursuit rather than I don’t think the philosophy of being overwhelmed is the correct one i actually think you have to aggressively look at doing it as a means to keep it going perhaps into the rest of Tatum’s prime with whatever else you’re able to keep around it with Derek or whomever as the last chance you can get to reload and have something going forward rather than ride those two off a cliff have everybody be 30 plus coming off of injury you know injuries and then just okay well then you’re selling them off for nothing just trying to get off of contracts and you enter five six seven years of darkness that’s the worst place to be so I’m okay to kind of like I said take a step back to take a step forward which I think you could do fairly quickly in today’s NBA but I think you do have to kind of do a hard reset which is I’m okay with um for next year imagine so my dream scenario you know and some people someone in the chat called it apocalyptic um but my dream scenario would be trade Jaylen for and and and and end up in the lottery next year uh and and have next year be a total wash and then reload with future assets a a lottery pick of your own for next year tatum coming back having preserved white and cap space to be able to go out and get other moves i think you could come out of this in a year back at the top of the mountain faster than you would be if you just kind of wait things out and hope that everything’s okay with your two stars coming off of injuries you know as they kind of get into years 10 and nine and 11 and 12 of their careers so that’s I’m it’s a calculus that’s that’s how I’m reading it but it’s not specific to the player i just think it’s your I think it’s the opportunity that you have and the only way that you could potentially do that i think the other uh method of holding on to those guys and hoping you could piece something together around it is less likely to hit so I’m not saying mine will work i but I think the other one is less likely to hit for you that’s all can I ask a crazy question yeah would you ever consider trading Jason Tatum yes right now well do you have to wait till next year because of the supermax this is year one of the super he’s eligible like July 6th that comes off next month i I would also I would because I mean I I wouldn’t honestly but I’m just just being devil’s advocate here if if the mindset is like this group is never going to work again this core can’t you get an even better return for Tatum back if you’re gonna hit the reset button and then you do a gap year like again this is not my stance but by by your thought process like I’m just curious if that appeals at all that’s the difficult part with that decision is what you know it’s the same question with Jaylen like what qualifies as a good return for Tatum it’s almost impossible to say like I’d love to get Giannis back for him but is is that a good move do the Bucks even want to do something like that call George Thunder vibes like yep young prospect million picks da da da like I’m It’s so different because George was ready to go like I don’t I don’t think you can get that while he’s hurt so yeah but no yeah you consider everything right i don’t think you’re opposed to any idea necessarily here and I I think at that point you’re probably building around Brown long term which I don’t know if that’s the move here like the Brown Tatum thing to me it’s it’s not that’s the other thing it’s their ability to do this together i’m not married to either player and it’s I don’t think they they they they’re doing it together per se i think you had to basically sell your soul to get the pieces to be able to get them over the top there i think just retaining that core of those two if you don’t have the flexibility to put talent around them we’ve seen it already we’ve seen this movie a long time ago though John they’re much better now bobby Bobby I will say I will say because someone brought this up on my Twitter and I’m gonna I’m gonna I’m gonna bring it to you now i was told last night on last night’s show you tell me true or false that you said Simons is 26 we pretty much know what he’s going to be right now yeah I think in terms of his development track he came in yet you still think 29 year old Jaylen Brown is improving like I am confused like I think Brown and Tatum have been pretty close to what they’ve been for a couple of years with some improvements i think Tatum’s overall game feel has gotten better uh you know and Brown I think in the earlier part of this year you could see more leaps across the way where each year he did acquire a skill set he didn’t have before they’ve been fully baked now for a couple of years with minor tweaks or adjustments there’s not another level necessarily where they’re going so you have a pretty good idea what these guys are i don’t know that you’re winning just with those two and a threadbear roster around them and I do think we’ve seen that they need a lot of help factor if they were both fine and you’ve got injuries yeah i don’t know you could project improvement because they’ve been improving prior the injuries if they were healthy now with these injuries you could project regression to Noah’s to answer Noah’s question t if you’re going to keep one it has to be Tatum because he’s the more complete player that who is more of a cornerstone i don’t think Brown can be your your alpha dog here so if you’re going to trade Tatum has the more devastating injury but Tatum has the injury that’s less likely to come back for probably still a lot higher probably still higher I would say so so my think my thing is again I’m not advocating for Jason Tatum to get traded i’m just saying that trading either of these guys is it’s not like you’re in a great spot with you you trade Jaylen for a bunch of young prospects draft picks and then you have Tatum coming back from an Achilles tear like like you said John like nothing is going to be a sure thing regardless so it’s just a question of do you like your core enough of Tatum Brown and White and Pritchard whoever else you believe in around them enough to say “Hey we can compete for a championship.” Because a lot of teams try to hit the reset button and it it doesn’t work right like that’s that’s the that’s the thing like you see teams all the time you know trade their aging star do the whole thing and like the Thunder one the Thunder did it properly and that can be very enticing but there are way more stories when it doesn’t work out like the way it does it did with Oklahoma City so I I just I I’m very cautious against that approach and it’s not I I know people think I’m like I defend Jaylen all the time and maybe that’s true but it’s really not personal to him i feel the same way about getting getting rid of Tatum like it’s like you have a you have a good thing with these couple of players and the pieces around them are going to change they already have several times throughout their career yeah but no it’s less it’s less the likelihood that you’re going to hit and it’s more the likelihood that you’re not going to go anywhere that’s I’m going I’m looking at that i think that you if you hold on to pieces as they get older especially coming off injury and you’ve and you’re hamstrung by the salary implications of two supermax players putting the roster around them for this to ever be a team that can compete for a championship again i think especially given the fact that you have very few assets right now you don’t have any upandcoming players that like you don’t have that guy who might be the star in a year or two you have nothing you have some decent players and role players you have Pritchard type players who are great to have on your roster but that’s not the next gem you don’t have anything coming up the pipeline and you don’t have any picks that look to be lottery picks or anything juicy for the next however many years in fact you have going out that that makes it extremely difficult to rebuild a roster so that I’m looking at how hard how challenging it’s going to be to be com to be championship level competitive again by holding versus a reset that absolutely could go horribly wrong no question about it um you know it’s almost like cosmetic surgery like your your face is going to get wrinkled and aged you could have the cosmetic surgery it’s going to it could it could go horribly wrong or you could look young again like like I think that’s where the Celtics are right now is like don’t have the surgery ride it out aging is okay i agree but that’s what I’m saying is we know it could go horribly wrong but you know you know what the results are going to be if you don’t um so everything’s a gamble i think it’s more of a gamble to ride it out when looking at the the scope of everything else that they have at their disposal that’s that’s where I come at and if we’re talking about the reality of how the thing works here this this path you’re talking about John where you identify a guy that you like you’ve talked about Hallebertton and Thompson and all these different guys that you maybe could have acquired at one point if you had some foresight and all that but when you could have acquired those guys there was no clear sign they were going to become what they’re becoming right now and some of those guys including Thompson are still somewhere along in their development track there and have to get where they’re going so you need to have an agreement as a front office that that’s going to be your cornerstone piece and front offices include multiple people with different opinions and all that and ultimately it’s going to be Brad’s say on something like this here but Brad eventually has to get to a decision where they feel good about doing something where he’s going to be moving off a guy that he coached that he believes in that he sees the impact of when he’s right and for some percentage chance of a pick if that’s the step back path or a player coming in who’s unproven or could project to go to a certain level like it’s a known commodity thing that no is talking about here where yes they’re diminished to some degree right now there’s questions about how you’re going to build around them but those questions are still less pressing than can you find Brown and Tatum again in some other path whether it’s drafting over the next couple years whether it’s a player coming in that you hope’s going to get to that point like you just hit the grand slam of all generational grand slams by drafting Tatum and Brown and then having those guys become what they became like that just doesn’t happen and so if you’re going to try to do that again while moving off one of those guys it’s extremely difficult but it’s also a one-star league more and more now too with the rules here so that goes back to Noah’s decision is it Tatum or Brown and it’s probably going to be Tatum here because I’m guessing they feel good about him getting back to form eventually so they have a really difficult decision on Brown here i favor keeping him i’m not going to act like it’s a slam dunk because of all the things you have to consider here um so it’s going to be very interesting over the next couple days here is this roster threadbear after all the moves they’re going to make here are they ressigning everybody and actually putting a pretty competitive roster together around Brown i hope that’s the case but that goes back to the ownership stuff we’re talking about here John and um whenever they approve that group and those guys are in command and they’re making the call on the money thing here we’re going to realize pretty quickly whether this is going to be a good error coming up and a reshape and reset where they’re moving on to the next Tamman Brown era or whether this is going to be a penny pinching difficult path forward where they’re really strung hamstrung by the finances here so we’re we’re going to find that out pretty quickly I think like are they diving below the tax over the next couple days i think that would say a lot are they keeping Hower and resigning Hford and Cornet early next week i think that would say a lot too noah is this the last big move of this off season what are we counting as big like is trading Sam Hower a big move um I think trading any any core player I think qualifies I’d say significant I don’t think so i think this I think Brad has one more up his sleeve for tax purposes i don’t know i just don’t think I don’t think they’re done is there any world I’ll ask this one again is there any roster is not complete like I feel like they’re going to make another move any world in which they go back up in salary no not too much higher than this there’s 68 million in tax right now that’s a lot they they might go more down and back up again but I I don’t think I never for one second thought that they might be in the second April to begin the year and I think that’s the only thing I pretty much feel good about right now predicting that all right all right we’re going to we’re going to wrap but we do want to let you all know that we are going to subscribe to the channel here but make sure you tune in tomorrow for our draft coverage we’re going to be live uh these these guys will be there uh at the Arbback Center prior we’re going to do a show prior to the NBA draft pick one is at what time Bobby eight yep and they don’t care 28 yeah uh we’re going to uh we’re going to uh jump on and do a pre-show and see what the buzz is right and we’re going to hang it here for a little bit I think at least through the first few picks where there is some chatter that the Celtics could potentially do something to move up into them we’ll probably take a break and then we’ll jump back on prior to the Celtics making their pick and talk you all the way through that uh as well this is typically what we do with our Patriots draft coverage what we’re going to do with the Celtics here as well and we will have coverage on night two as well so um look for notifications you can follow us all on Twitter here but subscribe to the YouTube channel as well uh we are looking to go live probably by 7:30 but perhaps sooner if there’s any news or things percolating that we want to talk about so join us for our draft coverage as well could be more news who knows should there be breaking news at any point in time between now and tomorrow we will jump right back on here and do that as well so if even Hower or you know goodness something bigger than that happens uh tonight at any point in time we will be back there noah doesn’t sleep so it doesn’t matter if it happens at 3:00 or 4 in the morning Noah’s going to be here no you might need a nap noah you should take a nap you should take a nap i have to start writing John i have to start writing it right after this all right it’s good i talked through my thoughts you know yeah yeah that’s good right um okay so that’s what we’ve got so again we thank you guys for joining us on the Garden Report uh here changes we all know what’s happening the Celtics have of course traded Chris Porzingis that’s why we jumped on to begin uh three team deal to the Atlanta Hawks they got there for Luke to start yeah George is this is what really matters most uh George Nyang second round pick three-team deal involving Chris Porzingis and the Celtics have generated TPEs which everybody loves their TPEs they never turn into anything but people love them and they got below the second a they got below the second apron so funny 4.7 million under the second apron uh it’s a that’s it we we love our savings here in Boston we love a good deal um and that’s early garden report talking point too yeah I the amount of time we spent on TPE holy crap my people are still h gez yeah that’s been a big one so thank you guys for hanging out we will see you well possibly later tonight but uh no matter what hopefully not yeah these guys need to rest and write but uh definitely tomorrow prior to the draft round one tomorrow night we will be live at 7:30 thank you guys for hanging out follow along with Noah uh for all of her reporting over on SP Nation Celtics blog uh great feature story on Drew Holiday who feels like that happened like a year ago uh but still a good story about Drew and his impact here and what he meant to the city of Boston and his impact on the court and off and of course Bobby Manning over at CLNS Media uh make sure to check that out as well we will see you all tomorrow take care everyone no one’s sneaking a vegan brownie by me i’ll tell you that okay you know what dog we’re going to do it you have to feel that way too Bobby i have to feel that way let’s fight over and and make Luke your first center bobby we gave you Luke hour earlier we are not going to end this on a damn conversation about Luke [Music]
Boston, Atlanta and Brooklyn are finalizing a three-team trade that sends Kristaps Porzingis and a second-round pick to the Hawks, Terance Mann and Atlanta’s No. 22 pick to the Nets, and Georges Niang and a second-rounder to the Celtics. The Garden Report’s Bobby Manning, John Zannis and Noa Dalzell discuss.
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30 comments
Say it aint so
George Niang hurt my heart coming here. Reminded me of having to trot Keith Bogans out there for half a season🤦🏾♂️ I hate Mini Van George
In Brad we trust 🙏
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They should just focus on centres in the draft that’s it
No banner without KP and Jrue! I get it but hate the business side of sports.
We have no first center, second center or thirrrd center
I’m the only Celtics fan who wants Sabonis in here???? He’ll make everything easier for them offensively and grab rebound that Celtics need.
It’s tough being consistent going to your job every day but honestly you guys do a good job. It’s a lot of shows but it’s a good show
The time to move brown would be when an expansion team comes in and you get their first round picks. Other than that, no. Also you CAN now aggregate trades. You can trade 27M Simons and 8M Niang for a 35M player and still be under the second apron.
Vegas: Boston 8th best odds to win championship
Bob Manning: They might sneak into the play-in game
Porzingis is always hurt so that's a risk waiting till the trade deadline too
Brad was probably like..as soon as KP can pass a physical he's gone
Celtics should make an offer to the Bucks. 👉 Trade J. Brown + Horford + Pritchard + 5 second round picks for Giannis.
Zannis you're nuts…..Why would you keep KP for $200 million in a year where we are probably better off losing games than winning?
Don’t feel bad for them
They can only blame themselves for playing like crap and losing to an inferior Knicks team
If I’m ownership I’m not paying to keep
a team like that together
DING DONG ZINGUS GONE!!!😊
Do they get back the money from all the games he missed while here???
Mann and Niang are better than everyone on the C's bench outside of PP.
Good riddance. We get better by dumping him.
AL gets to stay thats whats important and he can mentor Luke and Quetá
Cheap Code probably will get hurt clearing out his locker room.
This is no longer a playoff bound team even when Tatum comes back. Depth wins, and we don’t even have that now
Well, I guess that’s that. Be well, CLNS and Boston.
No benefit keeping Hauser, Kornet, and Horford. We been passes guys. Not top team at end of season. Nostalgia never won a CHP.
Mittal in action, what an ownership we got
I’m going t miss his DNP Box score
no2 and castle for brown
Celtics in 9!
The celtics would be crazy to trade brown or white and Tatum and Brown will absolutely be the same they young still.