Rock Bottom For The Nats | Sports Junkies

Rock Bottom For The Nats | Sports Junkies

It’s Barry’s Veruga from the Washington Post. Hey Barry. Hey guys. How are you buddy? What a what a what a day yesterday was, right? Head spinning. Yeah. I mean, you guys know how long Mike Rizzo has run that baseball department and and you know, we can talk about whether it was deserved or not, but you just that news come pops in and you take a deep breath and say, “Wow, they they really did it.” and and um you know his life is different and Davey’s life is different and and the franchise is different. So pretty monumental day for for that team. Hey, as a reporter, sorry EB. So as a reporter, what’s a standard Sunday night like you like yours after, you know, a Nats game that ends at fourish and then when something comes out like that, I mean it just becomes an allnighter. Yeah. So, you know, you put down the fish tacos that you were making for dinner and y could wash your hands and and uh and head to the laptop. Um, and yeah, you know, I was texting and and talking with some execs, you know, from across the game after filing a a column um about, you know, kind of assessing the job and and what kind of person would be good, who’s out there that would be good, and and what has to be done to to turn around not just, you know, yeah, they got swept by the Red Sox and they had an 11game losing streak, but kind of the underlying ing problems that have gotten them to this position, which I know we’ve talked about had a lot to do with drafting and developing um which they really haven’t done for the better part of a decade. So, um really really important decision going forward. Obviously, I really think that the the general manager or the president of baseball operations that they put in place should be able to hire his manager. Um, and it really will be kind of revealing how the learners handle the the GM search. Um, they have had a slew of execs from different areas in in their business leave for other jobs over the past couple years and in almost every case they’ve they’ve just bumped up whoever was behind them and not, you know, gone out and tried to figure out who the best and the brightest out there are. I don’t think they can do that in baseball ops. And that’s not to say Mike Dearalo isn’t deserving of a shot. He’s a really thoughtful executive and has been there a long time and and knows uh the good and the bad that’s under the hood there, but he has to be put up against a list of qualified candidates who are allowed to come in and make their own presentations. And really, they should be seeking opinions from all across the sport. Um because this is a a major major hire and they haven’t done that for whatever it is 17 years since they put Rizzo in charge. Barry, I remember when we had you on a few weeks ago and we talked about the Nats a little bit and Rizzo and I think you referred to Mike is like like he’s kind of like the furniture over there, right? He’s been around for so long and you alluded in his column, this column that you wrote last night that you kind of got the sense when you met with him in spring training that maybe people were a little too comfortable. You you you know didn’t feel that comfortable writing about it, but that was the sense you had. I know we had Chelsea on earlier and she talked about this the lack of urgency she felt maybe that was there when you compare a team like the Tigers. uh talk about that kind of instinct that you had in spring training, why you didn’t write it, why you thought that, and just how we got to this point. So yeah, and I, you know, in some ways I feel bad not writing that at the time because it sounds like kind of retrofitting the the situation, but you know, I was I as a columnist now with the team where it is in its development, like I’m not going down to spring training twice for like 10 days at a time. It’s only worth I went down there once. I was there for I think six days of reporting and I just even though I sensed that I felt like man like the everybody and I don’t even just mean Rizzo and Davey in terms of feeling comfortable. I I thought the players took that cue and like you’re CJ Abrams and you’re coming off getting banished at the end of last year. Like you’re James Wood and you’re about to be a star, but no one it didn’t feel like a a competition and I meant that kind of throughout the um up and down the organization. But again, I I held back because you know what I’m going to get that sense over six days they hadn’t even I left and they they were just starting to play games. like I could have been wrong, but in in retrospect, I I do feel like I was right. And that’s some of a reflection on Rizzo and Davey, but I I also think it’s more a reflection on ownership because, you know, they’ve had this kind of halfin halfout thing for a while. And even though Mark Learner sat down with me at spring training and said, you know, we we feel like we’re going to run this for the foreseeable future, um it it didn’t feel and it doesn’t feel until last night aggressive like how can we make this better? What are we doing that’s good? What are we doing that needs improvement? what people do we have in place and positions that we don’t have in place should we be thinking about um should we be thinking about so it it just was like it felt like kind of a malaise and this move is a chance to change that and and not just shuffle the deck but really dive in and and think about um what have we not committed to that would help um that kind of undercut Rizzo and and his his operation because he’d tell you that he didn’t have all the stuff not just major league payroll but you know bodies and technology and that kind of thing. Um that’s what they have to kind of explore now a fullcale look at what they do well and what they don’t do well and who would help them and what them help what would help them improve in all areas. Barry, do you get a sense that the learners understand where they stand with the fan base right now? They’re not Dan Snyder because Dan had so many awful things associated with him, but they’re the next closest thing right now. They’re kind of like enemy number one. Like people might say, “Okay, yeah, I could get Rizzo. I mean, you know, haven’t won in years and Davey and whatever and okay, I can understand it.” But man, most of the fan venom is pointed towards the learners and it has been for several years now. And I think it should be and that’s, you know, I think a lot of that is easy for fans to do in terms of um major league payroll. Like that’s what you look at. They haven’t, you know, since since the World Series in 2020, they tried to run it back and they spent and um you know, it it didn’t work in the pandemic shortened season, but since then they they haven’t done that. they haven’t been able to do multiple year deals and um and would tell you that uh that hamstrings a rebuild because when they did it the first time, you know, you had young controllable players in place in in Ryan Zimmerman and Ian Desmond, in Jordan Zimmerman in in the core that that came up and became um the centerpieces in uh in a winning team, but you not only surrounded them with Jason Worth who would be there for seven years and it was invested in the product not only that season but in the seasons going forward but in smaller deals for Adam Lar Ro people like that that that made it so the clubhouse was allin and that hasn’t in this rebuild that’s the major difference. Do they have high-end talent in James Wood and CJ Abrams and Mackenzie Gore and maybe Dylan Cruz? Yeah, they they do, but they don’t have veterans in there who can say, “Hey guys, this is how you’re a big leager. This is how we develop into a winning team. I’m going to be here not just past this trade deadline, but for years and years to come.” And not doing that is on the the learners. And I think um pulling the plug on Rizzo and Davey was I think it was the right time, but if they think that’s going to take the heat off them, I I think it turns the heat up on them more because now they’ve got to make a decision uh about who’s going to do this and they’ve got to show that they’re committed um both in major league payroll and in in building up the the front office staff appropriately. talking to Barry Veruga from the Washington Post. We talked to your colleague Chelsea James earlier in the show and I was trying to get at this and may maybe you have a little more insight. You know, when we talk about the learners being the owners, how are what does it look like? How are they involved in like the day-to-day operations? If they are, who’s at the office? Is it just Mark Learner? How does this all go down? So, it’s a really interesting question, JP, and I think it’s um important that you kind of you get under the hood here and and see how different they are from most major league organizations. So, Mark Learner is is the point person for ownership. He’s the person who’s technically in charge, but they do almost everything by consensus with um the two Ted Learner sons-in-laws, Ed Cohen and Bob Tannen Bomb, as well as Mark’s sisters, um Deborah Cohen and Mara Tannenbomb. Like, that’s how they It’s one of the reasons it’s been difficult to make decisions since Ted’s death in February 2023 is because there’s no north star anymore. like they they took his word and his guidance and that was the most important thing and he he almost created consensus by default because he was such a powerful figure that they they almost all revered. Um and so the other aspect is they had Stan Casten as a team president when they took the ownership group when they took over ownership in 2006. And since Castton left in I think it was 2011, he’s been with the Dodgers since then. They have not had a forward-f facing kind of point person to oversee all of baseball operations and the the business side of things. Um, and so that’s another way that they’re half in. There’s a a COO of Learner Sports. His name is Alan Gotautle. He’s never um forward- facing. He’s not somebody you go to to say, “How is this decision made? What are you going to do next?” Um, and he has a pretty significant role with learner enterprises. Um, which means he’s not at the ballpark all the time. He’s not 100% leading the nationals. And if you’re a department head at the Nationals, you kind of don’t know um, you know, when are you going to have Allen’s attention? Does he have authority to approve stuff? it’s a lot easier for him to say no than yes. Um, so it’s just it’s not a normal operation and that’s their prerogative. If they think they have a better way to do it, um, that’s fine. I I do think it’s yielded the results that have led them to fire their field manager and their general manager. Um, because there there’s it just feels like they’re half in in a lot of ways. Right. So that leads into my next question. Is it your opinion, Barry, that whoever takes over as GM, whether it’s the Bardlo or someone else outside, that they will be dealing with the same restrictions that Mike has been dealing with since the co year? Well, and that’s that’s the question. Um, Eric, I mean, I’m sorry. Uh, that was me, Jason. Sorry. Sorry. It’s okay. It’s a big You had a long night. Yeah, exactly. I think it’s a big question for anybody that comes in for an interview. Like I think these conversations if you’re a potential candidate have to be hard questions both ways because um you know in some level if the the learners are going to use this opportunity to up their com commitment into building a proper front office and a proper bas operations department. Well that’s too bad for Mike Rizzo who didn’t have that since the um co years for sure. Sure. I mean, he should have been afforded that opportunity with those resources. That being said, if you’re coming in for an interview, and this includes if if you’re Mike Debardalo, you have to ask them what is your commitment um to to building this up to what it needs to be. Here’s what I need in terms of data analysis, in terms of positions that are um you know, responsible for really nittygritty stuff. And we’re talking about like uh guys right out of college who would make 60 $70,000 a year but are responsible for analyzing defensive catching across the major leagues. Like there are other organizations that do exactly that. There are other organizations that at the major league level say um you are not taking a proper lead off of first base. You were at 11 ft. we need you at 13 feet. If you’re going first to third, here’s the angle that you need to go in at second. Like those things aren’t happening. And that kind of nitty-gritty stuff takes people and process and resources. So if you’re a candidate for this job, I I don’t think you want to take the job if you know you’re going to be hamstrung before you get into the seat. like you want to know you’re going to be properly funded and have a chance to compete with the the best in in the sport. Well, we we had Rizzo on last week and your colleague wrote about this in the Washington Post. They’re one of a few teams in Major League Baseball that doesn’t have that tragic uh trajecto technology. We asked him about that, too. Yeah, correct. And and Mike, you know what Mike did for so many years in having to answer questions for ownership? Like he he protected them because he did a really good job of managing up. I I once had another GM say who has the hardest job in baseball in managing up. I would go with this GM was saying I would go with Brian Kman dealing with the Steinbrunners and then I would go with Mike Rizzo dealing with the learners. Like that’s the kind of dysfunction that people across the game thought this this was. So to to bring it back to your point JP that the about the technology like on the Junkies on Wednesday morning, Mike Rizzo is not going to throw the learners under the bus and say he never did. They don’t fund that kind of thing. It’s a half a million dollars that would be really really helpful. He’s going to say we have technology. It’s not for everybody, but for some people it can and can really help. Like it’s a tough There’s a reason that when Spencer Nosam are our our uh one of our beat writers did that story that um Rizzo didn’t comment because the the comments are not going to reflect well on on what ownership is allowing him to uh explore. Now, I’m not saying that Mike Rizzo was like, you know, we need that technology. I’m not sure he was. Um, but it’s it’s true that they don’t spend like other people spend on things that are helping other franchises excel, and that just puts you be behind. You’re this this franchise is behind in in a lot of ways. Some of that has to do with Mike Rizzo and his baseball operations departments drafting and developing, but not all of it does. Um the the bigger arrow points to ownership here. So how attractive is the position if if they’re going to be dealing with that same nonsense that Mike dealt with? Well, unless unless ownership is able to sit down and say, “Hey, we know we haven’t done our jobs very well since the pandemic.” And because we’re committed to keeping this team, um we know it takes a different commitment from from us, not just in Major League Poll, but in uh all the elements that we’ve talked about um up to this point. and and you know, if they’re not saying that to incoming um candidates and and those candidates are are being told um you know, we’re not going to increase spending in personnel and technology and all the stuff you need to compete, then it’s not a very attractive job. Um but in talking to and texting with some other execs who might be interested last last night um in the right circumstances with the right level of commitment like it’s an extremely attractive job. Like you you could um this this market has shown it can compete when it’s funded properly. They’ve won not just the World Series in 2019 but from 2012 to 19 only the Dodgers won more regular season games than than this place. So um you know it really depends the attractiveness of the job really depends on how the art the learners can articulate and commit to what they’re going to do differently than they have been over the last several years. Hey Mike in 10 or or Barry I’m sorry in in 20 seconds or less like do we have any indication that this there was an ultimatum given to Mike where they were like we need you to get the let go of Davey and he just refused to do it. No, I don’t I don’t have that at all. And I really think Eric that if you if you pull the string and say, “Hey, we’re going to fire Davey.” Like the arrow goes pretty quickly to Mike, but like why? Well, the onfield performance stinks, but so does the drafting and developing. So I I think they were a package a package deal. Yeah, they kind of became one for sure. Yeah. Yeah. All right, Barry. Good stuff. Thanks, guys. Thank you, Barry. Barry’s from the Washington Post again. We have a poll up. Did the Nationals make the right move by firing both Dave Martinez and Mike Rizzo? You can vote at Junks Radio. Coming up next, we’ll open up EB’s entertainment page here on the Junkies.

Barry Svrluga joins The Sports Junkies to break down the Washington Nationals decision to fire Mike Rizzo and Davey Martinez.

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