RED WINGS PROJECTIONS & LINES ft. Max Bultman – Winged Wheel Podcast – July 9th, 2025
[Music] Welcome to the Wing Wheel Podcast, the number one source for news, analysis, and discussion on the Detroit Red Wings, the NHL, and all things hockey. Here are your hosts, Ryan Hannah, Brad Krisco, and Evan Lopsinger. [Music] I know we have Max Boltman of the Athletic Detroit Wing Wheel podcast contributor here for this episode. It’s another Good in the Room episode and we have a lot to go with, but my intro isn’t a question directed at you, Max. This one’s for Brad. Brad, I have a number for you. I want you to tell me what you think it is. 1,394. What do you think that number is, Brad? 1,394. I could be a lot of I like this is a stat of some kind. Yeah, in a way. Yeah, you could say that. I got I got nothing on this one. 1,394 miles between the great state of Oklahoma and Bakersfield, California. I heard that last episode and I was like, am I wrong? I got to tell you, my knowledge of western US geography, uh, not near the top of my priority list, I don’t think it’s the the geography. I think it’s the Well, I guess, yeah, you just hear the affiliate cities and you have you make connections in your head. That was a rough episode for us, man. The the YouTube viewers quickly pointed out that we had the Winged Wheel podcast pillow upside down. They’re like, “All three of you sounded dead.” About 10 people messaged me, Bakersfield is in California. I’m like, this was that’s what we get for recording at 6 a.m. I I think the bigger flaw is thinking Oklahoma would have a hockey team. Hey man, once you get into like I mean, not not that the AHL is a junior league, but once you get into the lower leagues, you find teams in some interesting places. There’s definitely going to be like a Oklahoma, you know, ECHL or whatever team, and I’m going to be I’m going to be cancelled very fast. Yeah. May I introduce you to the Oklahoma NHL team? Counts. Oh, no way. Who are they? Oklahoma Warriors is the first thing that comes up on Google when I type that. What league? Hold on. What league? The null. No. North American hockey league. What does that counts? It’s the league below the USHL. Cancel Max Baltman. If you’re from Probably has a null team and they used to Hold on. Is this why I This is why I got screwed up. Oklahoma City Barons, former AHL affiliate of the Edmonton Oilers. Oh no. You know, I thought it was weird. That’s like an Evan Ryan mistake. The way Brad’s brain works. I’m like, I’m surprised he got that wrong. Like I was just too late. That’s all it was. Sergey Zub off. Brad, what about him? Left to right shot. Righty. Yeah. See, it’s automatic for this guy. Welcome to the Winged Wheel Podcast, folks. Remote episode because we have our good friend Max Boltman on the show. It’s the off season, but we have a lot to talk about still. I’m one of your hosts, Ryan Hannah. I’m Brad Krisco. I’m Max Boltman. And I’m Evan. On this episode of the Wind Wheel podcast, we are going to revisit Max’s thoughts on everything that’s happened since the last time we spoke. So, the Detroit Red Wings draft class, free agency trades, what’s left out there, line projections, targets to add to the roster for Steve Eisman, rumors of what’s going around. Max has a lot in terms of that’s actually going to drop on the Athletic Detroit soon in terms of internal improvement, all of that and more. There’s a really interesting conversation to be had about the length of a rebuild based on a great piece that just came out recently, some NHL news, and whatever else we can get to before overtime. Before all that, this podcast is primarily supported by our Patreon supporters. patreon.com/wingodcast if you want to join the Dubdub Club. Get access to benefits like our bonus overtime episodes which record right after these main ones. You also get access to our Patreon exclusive Discord, which is a fantastic community. Additionally, you’re automatically entered into all of our giveaways. In season, we give away two tickets to every Detroit Red Wings home game. And in the offseason, we have a lot planned. We actually just put in an order for a really cool item that will be given away to some patrons as well. Also, if you’re from the great state of Oklahoma, I’ll give you Max’s personal address. It’s on site with him. So, again, patreon.com/wingedwheel podcast. Max, for your remaining days, we have to make the most of you. You’re off to vacation soon. Very welld deserved. Not to Oklahoma. I I would be walking into my demise. What’s going to be the bigger rivalry? Max versus the state of Oklahoma or Charles Barkley versus Galveastston, Texas? I’ve actually never been to Oklahoma and I would like to go. I I’ve heard good things about Still Water. Never been to OKC. Never know anyone who’s lived in OKC, but I a good friend of mine lived in Still Water. Went to college at Oklahoma State and uh says good things. So, I I do want to see Still Water. Well, you won’t be going to any hockey games. I can promise you that barred from the arena. So, we’ll start with the draft. I know the the focus for folks is going to be free agency and roster building, but the last time we spoke, Max, was just before the draft. Let us know what you think about the way the Red Wings approached the draft, their overall draft class, and that’s all headlined by the fact that they got Carter Bear with the 13th overall pick. So, your thoughts on adding Bear, you know, how things played out and and the overall hockey town kind of cohort that’s coming in. Yeah, I’ll give you my thoughts on that just as soon as I’m done familiarizing myself with the rest of the null, which does include a team from Louisiana and several in Texas and even one in New Mexico. I think that’s the one that would have surprised me the most. No, I I think you said like thoughts on how they approach the draft. Like I think we we got probably tape we could play back somewhere from from another year cuz it’s it’s pretty consistent, right? That this is the way they’ve been doing it. I think they’ve mostly been pretty successful in doing it this way. They have a profile. They hammer it. They take a couple shots. They they like to take a couple guys out of non-traditional like leagues or situations. It’s a couple prep guys. Sometimes they’ve gone the overager route. And I think they found a lot of guys who fit what they want to do. You know, in the pre-draft episode, we did the the mock and everyone went around and said who we would take if the board fell that way. Four out of the five. I was unfortunately the fifth. The four of the five said Carter Bear. And I’ve liked Carter Bear the whole way. I I I don’t think it’s any secret. I also really like Kan Herson. He ends up slipping a little bit later than I would have ever thought. But through the whole process, Bear has been one of those inner circle two or three names that just screamed Red Wings, right? I mean, it’s it’s a lot of traits. It’s the compete, it’s the hockey sense, it’s the motor, it’s the aggressiveness. Like, I mean, pick whatever you wanted. He’s a highly skilled player, 40 goal scorer in the Western Hockey League who also happens to meet their criteria. I think it’s a very good pick. I think the only question anyone really has here is a like with the skating, like is he going to especially after an Achilles injury, like is he going to be a explosive player? I don’t really know that he needs to be to be very impactful and then b is just what does it look like after the Achilles. So to me, I think he he fits. He’s always been one of their top targets. And I think having seen him just a little bit, I didn’t get to watch him extensively at Dev Camp, just the way the availabilities were structured, but especially a couple videos I was able to see and the little I was able to see of him, encouraging that he’s able to do even this much already. So very excited to see kind of where his next step goes. But I think he he fits a real need in the pipeline and he fits their MO. I don’t think you could ask for more than that in the draft. I it’s really arbitrary at this point and I actually want to get your opinions on dev camp as well in a second but where does Carter Bayer fit into you know any kind of Red Wings prospect ranking? People are going to tie him to MBN a lot cuz a lot of the similarities and the profile of the player is that about where he is or is it kind of too early to tell? I think slightly above just because I think he’s more skilled. I think MBN maybe more projectable little bigger body. I think the physicality is a differentiator for Brans Negard, but I think the skill and and even some of the kind of I don’t know what you’d necessarily call it. It’s not I think MBN’s a very smart player, but I do think Bears’s like eye for offense, I guess, is how I would put it, is a higher end. Is that fair, Brad? Higher level of creativity, too. Creativity. Thank you. Yes. And so, I think that’s that’s a need, right? like they needed a player who was going to be able to fit in their top six and be that kind of skilled creator while also being able to retrieve pucks to forche. Like that’s bare to a tea. Like he’s a very smart player who is willing to finish a check, whose feet don’t stop moving. You’re going to trust him in any place you put him in the lineup. I’ve already started thinking down the line like where does this guy be best fit the Red Wings in two or three years? And there’s a couple different looks I think that are both exciting. one is he kind of that answer next to Dylan Larkin and Lucas Raymond where he’s got plenty of offense similar to what Marco Casper was, but he can also do some of that dirty work. He can create hard offense for you, all that. You’re certainly going to feel good about him two or three years from now in in the effort level and knowing that you can trust him against good matchups. I also think it could be an absolutely miserable line to play against if you put him with Casper and Brans Negard and that would be kind of the the closest Red Wings equivalent to what the Panthers have going on their second line, right? And obviously there’s a little higher end offense than what they have. They’re the Stanley Cup champs for a reason. But I think both of those options are very realistic for Carter Bear and I think they’re both very exciting. Were you at all surprised that they went with Bear considering who’s on the board? I mean, obviously we said on the show that if if Hawin Anderson decided that he wanted to pass over Ecklund, then that was as good of an indicator of trust in the pick as it was if they did pick a sweet or or someone who came out of the European Leagues in general. Did it shock you at all, even a small bit that they didn’t go the Eklland route? No. I mean, I like I think I projected Ekkund, but I I think the whole way you would have called that close to a coin flip in terms of what they would do because they are so similar. They’re they’re very similar profile. If you’re going to parse hairs, Ekkan better skater, little better shot. Bear bigger and a little more playmaking. Even though I don’t think playmaking would be like my number one attribute for any of them. I I think he has more of it than Ekkan does. And if you were to say like which of these do the Red Wings lack more of, I think it is the size and the playmaking. So I I think again where he was ranked, it made it very obvious to kind of key in on him. But these two have always been of a type, similar guys. And I get what you’re saying about Anderson and like, you know, the Red Wings have clearly trusted him so much that if they love if if he loved Ekkund, like you got to think that would have gone a long way. But I think for almost everyone, like these guys are are of a type. They’re the same kind of profile and if one guy has a couple differentiating things that you like better, it’s totally fair game to pick it. I think that’s probably exactly what happened. So Genberg, Prale, Solomon, Verk, Turan, Murphy, and Robertson Palmer. Any of those picks stand out to you in terms of, you know, exciting value to be had where the Red Wings got him or or a prospect to really keep your eye on? Well, in terms of the value, I think is the one that a lot of people got excited by. I think he was a little higher on some public list. I saw him have a really great game against the US in the bronze game at U8s. He scored two goals and and really put a scare into the US. um not the strongest US crop in recent years, but you know, it’s Slovakia putting a big scare into the US. I think that says something. And the same is actually true of of their goalender Predell. I hope I’m pronouncing that right. Michael Prellell, but he was really good that whole medal round. So, I think those were really good picks with Genborg or I’m going to try to do it the way that I think it’s supposed to be. Yenbur, I thought he was excellent. Yeah, good luck, Evan. I I think he he was an excellent like bottom six projection and I don’t think he’s ever going to be higher than that. He is like a very clear role, but this is what you want out when when I start to like picture what the Red Wings future bottom six looks like. It’s guys like him. It’s Finny. It’s Kein and it’s it’s again I’m going to try it. Yen I I think the way he can bang bodies but also clean up pucks, skate pretty well. Like this is what you want a bottom six to look like. odds are one or two of those guys not going to hit, but I think he gives you a another really good iron in that fire. And if it turns out that, you know, a guy who again was playing goalie up until he was like 11 or 12 years old, to hearken back to Ryan’s uh joke that even the the skaters they draft are former goalies, if there’s more in there because he he’s been skating, you know, for a shorter period of time. If he’s been skating out for a shorter period of time, maybe there’s more to to tap into. Evan, any any commentary on the pronunciation there? You want to attempt it now or you going to save that? No. May, you know, that’s a Patreon exclusive thing. You know, we we bundle together a bunch of names and we’ll have a couple drinks and uh and and start naming. I don’t think it’s that complicated. Just swip swap the G’s for Y’s is what I’m kind of going with. Lars says there’s a J in there. I don’t hear it, so I’m I’m skipping it. Today’s Patreon exclusive is Evans commentary on Nick Tarnaski pummeling someone at the golf course, but in the future it’ll be the pronunciation of the next Red Wings bottom six Swedish prospect. Fun fact, a good friend knows the pro shop manager, the club pro at that club. So, good insight is available on that. We got some offseason content lined up. Okay, Max, you you mentioned development camp a couple times. Obviously, I think it was said that there was just too many guys carrying injuries either into camp or that were sustained in camp that they didn’t want to risk the development camp game, but you still got to watch these guys come in, the the Revings prospects and some extra bodies come in. Any big takeaways? And we’re going to link to all of Max’s work on the Athletic Detroit, which you should go and read for more detailed insights here, but what were your takeaways from Red Wings development camp this year? Kean, I mean, we just talked about kind of these projectable bottom six types. I think he’s the most fully realized. I mean, Finn’s obviously played some pro games, but but I think the offense level in Kein and I I knew he had a good shot. I don’t think I fully appreciated what his shot looked like until I saw him not just rip it, but rip it like on net and into the net over and over and over again. That I thought was a big takeaway is that this is not just he’s an energy guy. He’s a north south guy, good skater, hard worker, all of that. But I think the shot is good enough that it will actually it has a chance to be like a 15 goal depth player which again I know nobody’s over the moon about like oh great like a 15 goal bottom six guy go up and down like good rosters like you need a couple guys like that to win. Uh and the personality on the kid is amazing too. I think that’s important for a Red Wings locker room that you know we keep kind of hearing is a little quiet right I don’t think that’s going to be a problem with Keithkinn and and Bransard they seem to have a pretty good dynamic back and forth between the two of them. I think that could be good to add to a locker room. Those two arguing about the validity of a sauna was such good content. That was hysterical. I think mike him up every practice, right? May as well at this point. That’s just free content. All right, that’s the the Red Wings draft class. You mentioned, Evan, that you know, HSN went later and I think we’ve talked on the show plenty about how that draft played out. Let’s get into the conversation that Red Wings fans are having more often now, which is how did free agency go for Detroit? And not that there were no moves. There were some moves, but there was none of the big splashes. And it played out as was predicted on this show. I think you predicted in your writing, which is that it was all going to be dependent on who wanted to come. The Red Wings certainly had interest, you know, verifiably with Nikolai Eers, but you know, we know they were in on some of the other guys, but whoever was left essentially didn’t even hear Detroit’s offer, but most everyone was gone. So Detroit did make some moves to improve. They brought in Bernard Docker for, you know, maybe the the Jeff Petri, Justin Hall role. They brought in JVR to maybe play all over the the forward lines. They they signed Elmer Sodlam. They signed Patrick Kane. They they got Albert Johansson done. They brought in Mason Appleton. What do you make of how free agency went, any of those individual deals, and just overall how Eisermanman’s approach to free agency sits with you? Well, a couple things stood out to me. The first is they finally actually get Van Ree Dyke. I mean, it was a couple trade deadlines ago that that was reported that that was happening and never came to fruition and then it was just kind of like, oh well, moving on, right? And now here he is. I actually think he’s a pretty good fit. I I know he’s not the splash ad and nor is Mason Appleton. But both of them add size to this mix. Again, I don’t think either’s like an ideal topline winger and I think that the tough spot the Red Wings are in is somebody’s going to have to play topline wing. And maybe that’s Van Remdzike because he’s got some good net front offense. Maybe that is Elmer Soderblum. Again, similar kind of package. A little maybe a little more runway. Not as much proven. It could be Bergen for stretches. It could be Andrew Cop or JT Comfort for stretches. I don’t think there’s a great like lock it in answer there, but it’s a lot of options for it. And I think you guys even talked last episode about probably something that’s just going to have to be by committee. Hope someone gets hot. When that ends, try to kind of catch lightning in a bottle until as the year progresses. maybe you get some more options that present themselves. So that’s one takeaway. I think another takeaway is in the bigger picture like approach and Eerman took a lot of heat over the last two or three cycles for the term that he gave out to free agents. I think deservedly some of it’s from me, some of it’s from you guys. I don’t think that heat’s wrong. And so when we were going into our analysis, the four of us, like throughout the leadup to this offseason, one of the things we talked about was these are the needs. This is what you know what you’re watching for, top four D, top six winger, goalie, whatever. The other thing we said was nowhere to draw the line. And while I know it was not a splashy off season, I do not see someone out there who went somewhere that was getable that I say they should have had this guy. And so I have to give them credit for successfully drawing the line and not giving out a contract that was going to age really badly to someone just because they missed on everyone else. I think there’s probably people out there who are going to hear that and be upset that it’s like oh they didn’t get any better but because they didn’t get worse like or hand out term that’s like credit and honestly yes. Like I I I think they could have done more harm to themselves in the big picture by trying to get, you know, I don’t know, maybe it makes them one point better in the standings this year, but it really hinders them two or three years down the line. I think they did that a couple off seasons, and I think it’s good that they learned from that. You mentioned the size with Appleton and JVR. You know, Eisman said Appleton’s probably going to play on uh that that checking line and JVR, we’ll see how that goes, right? like he’s not the JVR of old, but maybe that’s part of your stop gap solution and finding lightning in a bottle. Does this kind of answer the question for Detroit where they’ve lacked a little bit of I know you like to call it that jam, that edge. Appleton plays, you know, a fast game, a hard game, maybe not like the world’s biggest tough guy, but at least brings a little bit more size. Does that have a big answer now in the Red Wings locker room? Do you still think this lineup does lack a little bit more of that size and that edge that they’re looking for? I still think they lack it. Right. And so like it is they did add size and I think you hope that with that there’s kind of some implied don’t mess with us kind of thing. Neither of those guys like you said is going to be putting up 150 hits for you next season. And like I’m not saying hits are the end all beall stat or anything like that. But I do think that edge is still going to have to be something you kind of coax out of a lot of your players. I think Casper brings a significant amount of it. That’s good. I think your decor has a few guys who bring a lot of that. I still don’t think anyone’s lining up across from the Red Wings on a given night, you know, afraid of of any of that. And and that’s okay. Like you I think you can be uh hard to play against without being physically dominant, violent, whatever a team. But I do think that maybe it’s just as simple as you’re getting pushed around a little bit less. Some of it I think is mental, too. Like I think we’ve talked about mental resilience as much as anything with this group. I think you hope by adding two really good veterans that you’ve certainly added mental resilience. But yeah, I mean I think when you talk about those games against Ottawa that always seems to be the one that that go that direction. I don’t know that I look at the Red Wings all that differently in that regard, but you’re hoping that maybe you can make up for it in a couple of those other ways. I think the elephant in the room for everyone looking at this Red Wings lineup is that this this defense is largely unchanged, barring something fantastic happening with Bernard Docker, which I will say is not impossible. I’m not calling it a high percentage, but he has been a player that teams have looked at whether it’s Ottawa or Buffalo saying he can be more than this based on the tools that he has. But unless he is anything more than just a third pairing right D, this defense has a lot of the same issues. They they want to come in and add to the point where they could push Sherro down the order. And ideally, you push Sherro and Johansson down the order and you have a really great top four than a solid top six, but are the Red Wings running it back the exact same or do you think there’s enough change here that that it could look different? No, they’re obviously running it back. I mean, it Bernard Docker, if if you if he is really good and he turns out to be like a four or five defenseman, that’s a home run signing. I don’t even know if it’s fair to expect that, though. Like I think in all likelihood the top four you’re going to see for a lot of this season is Sherro Cider and Edvinson Johansson. And maybe you you try a look at Edinson Cider and Sherro Johansson, but I don’t even see how many other real possibilities there are. The way that you know Hall has been used suggests that they know he needs to be sheltered. I think that’s correct. And he can be okay. Like him and Guson were okay in in sheltered minutes together, but someone is gonna have to eat a role that is a little bit above their head. At least one someone is gonna have to do that. And I I think what I look at in the the case for hope in that regard has a lot to do with Trent Yanni. I wrote a story late in the season by the time that everything was already kind of going south. So I don’t know if anyone even read it cuz I don’t think they wanted to hear it. Oh yeah, the content dip. We’re familiar. It was early April. So right after March. I even held the story forever cuz I was like I’ll wait till they win a couple in a row and they just didn’t. But Yanni’s track record with young defenseman is remarkable. And and you can go stop by stop, but just go to his last stop in LA and you look at some of the young guys that they had. I don’t really think any of Mikey Anderson, Matt Roy, Shawn Walker, Shawn Dery were these like big time names. Oolie Ma was there for a little bit. I don’t think any of them Ma was a first- round pick, but I don’t think any of those guys were like huge names. All of them are playing top four roles for like solid to good to even very good teams now. And you go back through Trent Yanni’s resume that just pops up over and over and over again that that he was able to kind of do that. Anaheim like all those good young defenseman Anaheim had back when they had Fowler and Montour and Sha Theodore and I’m going to miss guys going through this because there were so many of them. Like you give a lot of the credit to the player like the player has to be the one to do it. The player has to have a certain level of talent, but Yanni’s found a way to get the most out of almost all those guys. And he pretty much does it by being very detailed and holding these guys accountable. And I look at Albert Johansson and Jacob Bernard Docker and Simon Edmonson and and Moider, frankly. And there’s a lot to work with with all of them. Like Johansson, not the biggest guy, excellent skater, very smart. That gives you, in my opinion, a good path to being like a legit contributing defenseman. I’ve always thought that the best comparison for Albert Johansson was Oolie Mata. And if he can blossom into that, that’ll play that’ll play as your number four defenseman for a while. Bernard Docker, if you can get a little bit more out of him and and maybe he can get to a similar level. And then if if he can if Yanni and Mlullen are able to get Edmonson and Cider to something approaching their ceilings, which are just enormous ceilings, that’s how the Red Wings get better. It’s a lot of ifs. And that’s the scary thing about these Red Wings is it everything feels like in the absence of that big splash ad or some surprise trade that we’re going to, you know, look back on in a week and be like, “Okay, we didn’t even need to to have that conversation yet.” But I don’t know that that’s coming. We’re at July 9th right now. Like what I see is a Red Wings team that can make the playoffs if a lot of things go right. And there’s a lot of teams that are in that exact same spot and I don’t see what separates the Red Wings from any of them. So it’s that’s where they’re at. that that’s it’s a frustrating place to be, but there is a path. It just requires a lot of things to break. Right. This is I’ll ask you first, Max, but this is for everyone here. Another if being thrown into the pile is is Buum and Winder and really anyone else who who can make noise out of camp, but those are the two names that people are looking at. Obviously, not, you know, Cider Edmonson level prospects coming up, but we are kind of looking at them to say, is this now when you make a move? And if not now, is it never? What would be the impact of any of those guys making it stick the same way Johansson did, although Johansson wasn’t right away? And would that be a potential solution from the bottom up for the Red Wings? Do you do you see that as viable? I kind of think both would just also be third pair guys. I mean, it both have a you know, again, there’s a there’s a lane to where it could be more than that. Waller is 6’4 and one of the best skating defensemen that I’ve seen. That’s a great floor, but I don’t feel like I see the meanness to like really be uh uh making full use of the size. I don’t know that I see like his creativity, even though he does can have some like good hands. I don’t really see the kind of the creativity to maximize all that. And Bouam, I think kind of the opposite. I think like very smart player. I think you’re just still and and he’s got size, but again, maybe not the meanest and not the the greatest like backward skater to the point where you be like, “Okay, he’s this like transition monster.” So, both I think both are going to play in the NHL, but I think both are most likely also third pair guys. And so, for that reason, I would have a hard time calling either one of them like a real difference maker if they move up. I think they they can definitely replace what is going to probably be the third pair this year over the course of the season. And I think you probably see one if not both of them this year and going into next year. One if not both are probably in your plans. But maybe I’m maybe I’m being too low. I don’t know. Well, I think this is one of those situations where it would have to get worse before it gets better because if like you said last year, Hall and Gustoson were decent and that might be JBD and Gustoson or JBD and Hall or whatever it is. Unless two of those three really go off the rails and are having a tough season, especially in a year where they’re going to try and make the playoffs, it would be tough for Mlen and Eisermanman to justify bringing Winderer and Boo up and thus throwing them in the lineup because the Red Wings are in a unique spot. As it stands right now, they have seven NHL defenseman under contract and only 12 forwards. So, right now there’s still two spots up for grabs, assuming they don’t carry three goalies, which there’s nothing that would make you think they’re going to do that. You know, Ian Mitchell maybe comes up as an eighth defenseman possibly is why they were thinking, but then that’s still another forward that has to come up. There’s there’s spots to be had. I know people look at the four lines in the 70 and go, “No, this is the team.” And that’s probably the opening night lineup. But if a willinder, a Danielson, a Buou, a Maser comes in and has a great camp, there are spots to be won. But that has, like I said, that has to go two ways. One of them, and again talking specifically about Bouam and Winder, has to be excellent, the best they’ve ever looked, cuz they both look really good, but they both, Max is absolutely right, don’t look like anything special. It’s not like they’re kicking the door down, and the Red Wings are like, “Ah, we need to make a spot for them right now. So, they would have to find another gear while simultaneously someone on the Red Wings roster is going to have to be giving them a reason to take their job. I I think the two names you just said there that I’m most curious about are Danielson and Maer, even though they’re forwards. And and with Maer, again, I don’t think he’s probably jumping into a top six role. But when I look at how I envision the Red Wings lineup playing out, nothing against Bergen. He’s proven he can produce offense at the NHL level. But for a bottom six identity, I like how Carter Maser rounds that out a little bit more. Whether the fourth line turns out to be something like, you know, Rasm and whatever, Soda Blom or JVR and Mer, right? that that line would feel like it had more of an identity than the same with Bergen where like you know you can you can find a justification for it where he’s like kind of the playmaker the creative guy of the group but with Mer feels like a bottom six line where you’re like yes this he’s he’s going to go get pucks he’s going to he he’d score like I don’t think people should underrate Mer’s offense I don’t think he’s going to be dangling guys through the neutral zone or anything like that but he can shoot the puck he’s a smart player he’ll find a passing lane he’ll get himself to the front of the net and he’ll poke pucks in like I think he projects to be a good bottom six player in the NHL and if he can be that and he can be that early that’s good and I think that that again contributes to being harder to play against. He’s another one of those guys who has a little bit of an edge. Danielson is the higherend one where like if he has a great camp and if he’s does something similar to what Marco Casper did last year. They’re not the same player, but then that really gives you some interesting options. Do you want to move Casper back with Larkin and Raymond on the wing and have Danielson play with Kanan to bring it? I give that a less than 2% chance of happening as we sit here today on opening night. But by the end of the year, I think that’s a real possibility and I think that’s the perfect kind of surroundings from to be in because he’s got the same kind of maturity, responsible game that would fit with those guys while also being able to think the game at their level. I think those guys could play well together. And I do think that at some point this year, as long as Danielson comes into to camp on a mission and and take carries that into the AHL season, I think that’s the way the Red Wings can raise their uh whether it’s their floor, their ceiling, raise their projection. Certainly, I think we talked about it at the start of last season, right? Like we’re like, “Oh yeah, maybe Danielson could make the team, but you know, we’re looking at guys like Maser, maybe Soderblum bounces back.” Then I think as the preseason went on, we’re like, there’s a good chance Nate Danielson could make this team. He was already playing like a mature, responsible, professional game. I I could see a path where he does that again this year at an even higher level and and squeaks his way onto the third line of the Red Wings to start the season. You know, I think the Red Wings should give any of these guys a potential chance because they’re unproven commodities right now. You know, we always talk about, you know, we’re bringing in bottom six guys. We know who they are. They’ve played in the league for a long time. They’re not who they used to be, but at some point, you got to continue to graduate some of these prospects. And Nate Daniels absolutely could shock in camp. And I think he’s right there. Well, I think Max is right about not necessarily opening night, but at some point in the season, Danielson changes the dynamic. I don’t get the feeling the Red Wings are going to be super keen on putting Marco Casper back on wing, even though he is stylistically probably the best fit to go with Larkin and Raymond. And obviously, the proof is in the pudding. They’ve done it. It was great. But I do wonder with the additions they made this off season if you throw Andrew Cop up there and we saw him center to Brinkit and Kane adequately you would think again with what he’s good at digging out pucks making smart passes I can see a world where he doesn’t hinder Larkin and Rain even if he’s not like a driving force on that line and then you’ve got your identity line that checking line they like you can promote whatever you want comfort to center Appleton and pick a winger call it Rasmusen for this hypothetical now all of a sudden Danielson you don’t love throwing him on the quote unquote fourth line but if that fourth line is sodblum and JVR hypothetically depending how you feel about handedness that’s not a bad line for a rookie to break in with you know you got someone highly two highly skilled wingers with size that can get in corners that can make plays and with Danielson’s mature game like it does and I’m not saying this is the exact makeup of the roster but a Danielson third or fourth line center playing 12 to 14 minutes a night dramatically changes the outlook of this team even if he’s only putting up a third of a point per game just because of the flexibility it allows them up and down the lineup in other ways. I just don’t think they’ll bring him up to be a fourth liner. Like I think they’ve shown us time and again that if the choices between a guy playing a fourthline role in Detroit or a first line role in Grand Rapids, it’s the latter every single time. Yeah. But like I’m using fourth line in air quotations. I could see depending who the opponent is, a line with Danielson, JVR, and whoever getting more runway than the Comfort Line just because the Comfort Line’s got that quote unquote identity. Could be some hole and road splits there depending on matchups. But I I could see that still even though it’s a fourth line being a 12 to 14 minute a night line, like the third and fourth lines get split evenly depending on the roles, depending on the matchups, depending on the opponent. And I I wouldn’t hate that to break him in. Now, if he goes in there and kicks the door in, of course, he’s going to move his way up the lineup. And then all of a sudden, you don’t have, you know, Cop on the top line, maybe that’s when you kick Casper there. And or you put Danielson himself there. Like, it’s just the flexibility would be dramatic cuz right now, even though they have 12 NHL forwards, the amount of combinations you can put together where that would be successful is pretty few. I think what’s important to take away here is it all goes back to what Max said a few minutes ago, which is that they’re going to have to figure something out in the season, right? Like we saw from free agency, there’s no silver bullet, one fell swoop answer to Detroit’s top four on defense or their their topline winger, even top six winger that they were looking for. But that doesn’t mean that’s the only way to do those things. We obviously fixate on that because we reached the draft where there was supposed to be this climax of trades and then we reached free agency when all these guys came available supposedly. It just didn’t shake out that way. But that’s not the only way teams are built. So yeah, if you allow this time and allow for and I’m thinking this is what Max is going to talk about in his article, which is probably out by the time you’re listening to this and and Max, you can explain more in a second, but what Max is talking about with internal improvement with the Detroit Red Wings. Like, you know, Danielson’s not going to come in and be Marco Casper at his best last season right away, but you can certainly see the path. You can certainly see the path with the the line combinations and the iterations that Brad just outlined for you. It’s hard to sell this as like a a sure thing and this is guaranteed hope and and this is absolutely going to work because it Max is right. This is a team of ifs and that’s a scary proposition for a team that wants to be a playoff team, but they’re not destitute. Like there are lanes here even if they’re not the the sexy lanes. Let me phrase it this way. Like Casper wasn’t the best of Casper right away. The Red Wings weren’t the second half Red Wings right away. If I gave you just the Mlen tenure, good and bad, the the two sevengame win streaks and the miserable March, I think that’s like a reasonable starting place for what to expect of these Red Wings coming into this season. Don’t think it makes you an automatic playoff team. Probably makes you a low 90s point team, especially when you take out a little bit of the new coach bump effects. But say it’s they’re on like a 91 92 point pace. Last couple years that’s been good enough. Won’t be every year. might not be this year, but then over the course of that year, some of those key guys continue to get better. Casper takes another step as the the next year goes on. Edmonson takes a step as the year goes on. Maybe Raymond and Cider take steps and then you add in a Danielson and he starts to give you a little bit more extra. And then maybe the second half of the year, you up that just a bit. That I think is the best realistic path for the Red Wings to make the playoffs this year. And it’s not going to happen for all five of those guys. Just realistically, you’re probably hoping it happens for three of them. But if it happens with the right three, and let’s say for these purposes that that the the right three in this case would be like Casper, Edinson, and Danielson because they’re the youngest three, right? I mean, I think it’s totally possible Raymond could add 10 points this year, and I don’t think any of us would blink, but let’s just say it’s those three. Well, now all of a sudden Edinson’s like not just like a good top four defenseman. He’s like a clear top pair, like legit minute carrier kind of like Cider has become. And and we know he’s got a lot of five on five offense cuz he’s hardly gotten any power play. And and Casper, it turns out, is just like a legit 60point two-way center. That that already alone makes you a much better team. And then you add in if like Danielson comes up and is like he doesn’t have to be that good. He can just be like, you know, a a good contributing guy who gives you some energy. He gives you good two-way impacts and he chips in with some skill and and he he’s a good complimentary player for your skill guys that I think is pretty interesting and plausible. And so would I bet on it as of today? No. But I think it’s possible. It’s within the range of outcomes. And and in the story that people can read on the athletic like I asked Dom at at Pashant, this is Pashant’s idea. So, I I should give him the credit for it. I asked him to look at like the the comps. His model can spit out comparables for guys at like the similar age in their career. And I think some of the comps are really interesting for Casper. They can really go either direction at this stage. Like there’s some ones that get you really excited like Jaime Ben. Like if Casper turns into Jaime Ben, that’s a game changer. Boon Jenner, I think that’s a good one. There’s some ones that get you not that excited like Nolan Patrick. like Burmese Stro, right? Like these are guys that like if things go that way, this year could go really bad for the Red Wings, but a lot of these other players, the comps are like pretty high floor. Like Edson, you’re talking about like Jacob Trouba, Seth Jones, Alex Edler. For for Cider, like the the highest comp for Cider is Drew Dowy. For Raymond, it’s Matthew Kachchuck and Sam Reinhardt. Like, I don’t know that all those are going to happen this year, but if a few of those happen and that’s what you’re talking about, that’s very interesting. All right, that’s a lot about the Red Wings and their internal improvement. We’re going to take a quick break, but when we’re back, we’re going to talk about some external opportunities, maybe via trade for the Red Wings to improve the team. But first, a word from the sponsors of the Wing Wheel podcast. Back after this, [Music] [Applause] [Music] as we roll into the off season, let’s be honest, staying on top of healthy eating is way easier said than done. Between road trips, long days, late night recordings, and making sense of wild trade rumors, it’s easy to reach for junk. But Tempo makes it simple for us to stay on track. Their meals are legit. Quick, single serving, and actually tastes like real food. The tomato aciago chicken, unreal. The apricot glazed chicken and rice, better than what we’ve paid triple for at restaurants. And the best part is they’re ready in just 3 minutes, so you can whip one up quicker than it takes for the puck to drop on a national broadcast game. Each week, you get access to 20 plus rotating meals, all crafted with actual ingredients. you can recognize. It’s a no-brainer when your day is packed and you still want to eat something decent without committing to cooking or cleaning. 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We’ll start with the big one. Brad, hang on to your chair here. Eric Carlson. I looked into this this kind of Evan and I were actually playing a golf tournament over the weekend and far too much sun and and maybe too many drinks on the punch card. So, we didn’t really register at first, but you know, finished the round and I looked at that and I just it shocked me a little bit like the the implication that the Red Wings were like really far down the road on a potential Eric Carlson deal. Like that would be big big news and that would get a lot of people’s attention even outside of Detroit and Pittsburgh cuz Carlson definitely has a lot of people calling. I’m not putting this out there as a it’s it’s not real, it’s dead, it’s completely fake, but I’m for what it’s worth. I looked into it pretty intensely. We didn’t leave any stones unturned. I can’t find anything on this. Now, that doesn’t mean that there’s nothing there, and it doesn’t mean that the Red Wings aren’t interested. I’m positive just considering circumstance here that the Red Wings at least are interested, but I I don’t know that there’s a a deal in the works or that’s pretty far along the road. I I would be a little surprised, but we’ve been wrong before. So, that aside, Eric Carlson, Douggee Hamilton on the defense side of things, and then Jordan Kyu at forward, whose name comes up from time to time, but it really feels like he might be on his way to St. Louis this time around. What do you make of those names and do any of them strike you as as fits for Detroit? What they’re looking for and what the return may have to be for them? I think the last part that you said is the key, right? Like of the three, the player you would most want is easily Kyu. I think you know he’s a young player, good score, he’s got warts to his game, but I think at that number and where the cap’s going, that’s at least that the going rate if you know the going rate might be more than that within a year or two for a player like Kyu. So, be a great ad, but I think he’s going to easily be the most expensive because I don’t think St. Louis has any reason to I know you said like seems like could be on his way out. I don’t think they have any reason to take less on him versus like a Pittsburgh for Carlson. This is a clear rebuilding team. I don’t know why you need to have a $10 million aging defenseman on your team. So, I got to think the, you know, return for Carlson would be the lowest. Maybe maybe comfortably. New Jersey needs to make room for all these defensemen they have. And so like, you know, I still think they could probably charge a bit more than the Penguins could for Hamilton relative to Carlson. I think I prefer Hamilton as a player, but cost being what it is, I don’t know that I love any of the options to be honest. But like Carlson is still Eric Carlson and I think he was good enough at the Four Nations to make you think that in a more competitive environment, in the right deployment, like if you stuck up next to Simon Edmonson, I certainly think it’s an upgrade on what Detroit has now. And it’s not like they’re using the cap space. Brad, I I know you’re a resident Eric Carlson spokesperson. Between him and Douggee Hamilton, what strikes you here as as being a fit considering the return, potential return? I think either’s a fit. We know what the Red Wings don’t have on the right side of the defense. So, getting a not even referring to these two specifically, a capable second pair right-handed defenseman, even if it’s not to this tier, would still be a huge win for this team. I think the key point here is the cost. Again, we’ve talked about it at length. The Red Wings are, even with this addition, more likely to miss the playoffs than make it. Now, I’m not saying their playoff chances are like 2%. Like, they’ve got a a real chance to have a good season and get into the playoffs, but just statistically speaking, they’re a dark horse. They’re going to have to unseed a Montreal, an Ottawa, a Toronto, who outside of Toronto all got better this off season. But obviously Toronto, the gap between Detroit and Toronto was significant enough that losing Mitch Martyr doesn’t put them in the Detroit tier. Now, the reason I mention that is because the return matters. Detroit. You could make a case at this point, and I’m not saying this is definitive, and I’m not even saying I agree with it, but you could make the case the most valuable asset the Red Wings have outside of the NHL is their 2026 first round pick because it’s looking to be a good draft. It’s the dice roll at McKenna if the season goes off the rails. And they can’t move that. And I don’t think they can afford to move that. maybe with top 10 protection, but again, if you’re trading with the Red Wings, you’re not going to want to do that. And I think with Kyu and Hamilton, you’re probably not pulling off that trade without including that. I think with Carlson, the price is far lower depending on the amount of retention. So, I think just based on that, Carlson makes the most sense. And again, we know what Eric Carlson can’t do, which is basically anything inside his own blue line. And he gets labeled like as like this, not labeled, but like everybody assumes all of his points come on the power play cuz he’s such a good power play quarterback. He puts up a lot of five on- five offense and a lot of five on five stats, which is something the Red Wings are awful at. Five on five offense. Yes, Eric Carlson’s gonna cause a few more goals against, but he’s also going to cause a lot more goals for. And again, circling back to what has been the Red Wings biggest problem a lot of the time, even when their defense is going okay, they cannot score regularly outside of the power play. Now, all of a sudden, you get a distributor like Eric Carlson on the ice to help lead the offense, to help the transition game, which is arguably the Red Wing’s biggest weakness when it comes to offense. That’s still a net positive despite the defensive flaws that come with him. And again, depending on the retention that you’re asking Pittsburgh to take, you’re absolutely getting that trade done without a first round pick and without a premium prospect, which is exactly the range the Red Wings should be trying to trade in right now. What you just said about the transition game, Brad, I think is the key to all of it because what I heard about the Red Wings last year, people be as frustrated about as anything was their breakout and and how much they missed Shane Gosses Bear in that regard, right? Like, yeah, Shane Gosses Bear ran the first power play. Last I checked, Mo Cider just ran that power play every bit as good as Gossas Bear did, but they missed Gossip Bear, breaking the puck out of their defensive zone. Yeah, Goss Bear had warts. Carlson is still I think at least at that level if not I mean I think he’s still better than Goss Bear at that level at starting transition at finding the guy streaking up ice. I think that’s the way that he would elevate them above all and that is inside of his own blue line right like the defending no doubt like the expected goals against numbers are going to go up with Eric Carlson on the ice but when you go up by share Carlson has still found a way to at least break even in his minutes the last few years. Do I regret voting for him for the Norris 3 years ago? Yes, I do. Does that mean that he would not still be an upgrade for the Red Wings this year? No. He would he would help them. He is an upgrade on what they have right now. And if the price was right, I don’t have a problem taking that for two years. And and that’s the crux of all this. Whether it’s it’s Carlson or Hamilton or Kyu, all three of those guys would improve this team. All three of them have very different situations in terms of what they bring to this team in terms of cap hit play style, what holes they would fill, what holes they would still leave on the Red Wings, but for the right price. Sure. So, if you’re talking trade deadline, Eric Carlson maximum retained, you’re you’re bidding against all the top competitors and and you’re having to leave your 2026 first unprotected, no, then Brad’s right. You don’t put that in the mix. But if it’s the kind of return, not that it would be the same return, but the kind of return where you felt the same way as the Red Wings did with John Gibson when Eisman finally got Gibson and you’re like, “Oh god, that was completely palatable.” Then, yeah, I think that’s very agreeable to say absolutely to any of them. But I I I don’t really buy into the narrative that’s going around some places that this is going to be a very active off season in terms of trades. I just don’t really see the pressures or the motivations for that. I’d love to be surprised, but I think teams are feeling pretty comfortable right now, more so than previous years, all because of the cap going up. So, if there’s a big trade, it it it would come as a big of a shock to me as anything else. And I I think it would be because a team was incentivized by a pretty big offer. So, we’ll see. It’s not impossible. And we know Eisman is looking for that. And you can always get creative in trades like this, too, because the simple idea everybody has in their head for this trade is, all right, Eric Carlson still got 10 mil, whatever on his contract. You give the Penguins a third round pick, they retain 2 mil. There you go. Boom, done trade. And then the Red Wings are on the hook for 8 mil. There’s, and I’m not saying it’s going to be this guy, but you could go to the Penguins. We will ask you to retain $0 on Eric Carlson, but you need to take JT Confer. And then it lowers their yearly cap hit. They take the extra year. The Red Wings are taking all 10 mil of Eric Carlson, but it’s only a net four, five mil ad because there’s another contract going the other way. And again, I’m using Coner just because of term, but like Justin Hall, you go down the list of expensive Red Wings and include any one of them that you see fit. And Pittsburgh’s going into a rebuild. They’re actively shopping Ricard Raquel, Brian Rust out there. And we saw the dark days of the Red Wings. You still need bodies to play for you at a somewhat competent level. Otherwise, you end up with the 1920 Red Wings. And no team should go through that, not even the Penguins. So, there are ways to make this work from a financial standpoint without it just being all about how much is Pittsburgh willing to retain. I don’t think you trade Coner for that. I don’t think you would. That makes them worse. I mean, they they need Coner at this point, don’t they? Yeah, you could pick whoever you want. Justin Hall probably makes the most sense because you’re sending out a right shot D, bring in one bag, etc. I just use Coner because I think the Red Wings would be more incentivized to move the longer term contract. But, but I I agree with your your premise, which is like don’t ask for retention. You have $12 million in cap space. You’re not using it. What you want to be able to do is take the the player on and if he thrives for you, a you’re probably in the playoffs and that’s great. But if for some reason you’re not, then you retain a big number and trade him elsewhere and try to get something for him and and salvage it, right? It’s materializing an asset for just money while also giving yourself a chance at improvement otherwise. So, if I was going to do this trade, that’s how I would try to structure it is, you know, don’t ask for retention cuz that’s where the costs basically would come from is whatever Pittsburgh retains. I mean, a first round pick like is what you get for retaining like $5 million. I’m not asking Pittsburgh to retain $5 million and giving up something of value. No chance. Give me the distressed asset and it it will either help me and I have the cap space to afford it or I will retain and I will get something for it when I flip them. All right, we’re going to move on here into it’s a continued conversation about the Red Wings and it’s stemming off of a a piece put out by Paul Padudi on the Daily Face Off and we’ll we’ll link it here. It’s a really interesting article. The Red Wings were used as an example in there fairly as you’ll see in a second. It’s about rebuilds in the NHL and rebuild timelines and how it’s gone across the league in terms of how long they’ve taken and the success of them. I won’t get into the specifics, but there were like certain arbitrary parameters in terms of what defined when a rebuild started and when it ended. And I thought it put a lot of things into perspective in terms of, you know, where the Red Wings are at. That kind of 9 9 and 1/2 year range is about where a rebuild is is expected to take on average in the NHL over the last what was it almost 20 years. And the Red Wings are at or are approaching that now. And so, you know, going through that, Max, I know you made a point to say that this was a really informative piece. Did that kind of put anything into perspective for you in terms of how things have gone for the Red Wings? Yes, I think it was it was excellent. The the author’s name is Paul Padudi. He he does really good work on the Hall of Fame in particular, which is how I got introduced to him, but I thought this was really good framing and and the parameters that he talked about, I think they are worth stating. Like he said, you you you go into a rebuild when you pick in the top 10 two years in a row. you’re a bottom 10 team for at least two years and you you’re out of the rebuild when you’ve either made the playoffs twice in a row or you win the Stanley Cup. And I think that’s those are good parameters. There’s other things that define it, right? A GM’s intention is always part of this, too. you can, you know, you can miss the playoffs twice and have a GM that’s not behaving like he’s rebuilding and that that colors things. But I do think and you could probably put like Chicago the early years of the like if you go look at that the data is like Chicago’s been in this rebuild longer than I think people realize and it wasn’t on purpose, right? And but I think from from a fan base’s psyche standpoint, that is how it works. And I think it’s good perspective for the Red Wings rebuild just because a there was that famous Ken Holland quote that the rebuild takes, you know, 8 to 10 years. This is a data case that proves that, right? And B, I think it tells you that the Red Wings are right on the cusp of where you kind of find out if your rebuild is going to pan out and and be kind of the average rebuild at least or if it’s if you’re going to kind of go into it a little bit deeper or or or you can kind of officially say this has gone off the rails or whatever. So, I thought it was good perspective. I it was a little maybe more sunny than I thought in some ways. If you’re a team that’s going into a rebuild, it’s much more depressing. But if you’re if you’re around a team or you’re you’re you’re talking about a team or you’re a fan of a team that’s been in a rebuild, I think maybe it’s it it’s good perspective that this is not as unheard of as it probably feels to the people who are in it and living it. I was actually stunned at the success rate. It was not everybody who went into a full rebuild came out the other end wrote, but 80 90% of them yielded good results, whether it was Stanley Cup wins, Stanley Cup finals, President’s trophies, multiple consistent playoff round wins. And the thing to remember though is 8 to nine years was the average. Yes. Which means half of them are taken longer than that. And I think the Red Wings obviously as it stands now are going to go into the longer end of that just because I know it’s talked about but I don’t think it’s talked about enough just how bad the drafting was entering this Red Wings rebuild. So it basically stalled it three years before it even started. Just so many missed first round picks. But to a point we were talking about earlier in the podcast and Max brought up specifically is when you look into the future and you look at a Larkin Raymond call it debrink it sticks around then all of a sudden MBN Danielson or Casper Carter Bear Kein in and then Danielson’s at the center. You see the formula for a very good team with sustained success, especially on defense. How many teams would kill to have a trio of the talent level? Cider, Edmonson, Sandine, Pelica, all under the age of 25 and then co Augustine. The foundation is there. They have to hit. If these guys are what the Red Wings think they are, this alone should get them into the playoffs. Even if they just continue to have off seasons like they’ve had where it’s just more Van Ree dikes, it’s more Mason Appleton’s, it’s more David Pons, more Shane Costas Bears, whatever. The prospects will get them into the playoffs cuz this is a very very strong foundation assuming 75% of them hit. How long is that going to take though? And that’s the part I don’t think Red Wings fans are ready to really admit. This is probably the 11 to 13year rebuild because Carter Bear’s still a couple years out. MBN’s a year or two out. Sandy Pelic is a year or two out, you know, and that’s just to get them in as rookies. When are they going to be impactful? Now, mind you, Danielson’s very close and obviously Casper and a bunch of them are already here, but we talk about the snowball and what happens. And I looked at a few of the teams that were in this article that had a lot of sustained success is they got into the playoffs with their foundation and like we’ve talked about with free agency once they made it the acquisition started. They started building around the edges. That’s where the Justin Williams of the world come in. You’re a couple pieces away from going from a first round playoff exit to winning a bunch of playoff rounds. And if you are making the playoffs, it’s a lot easier to bring these guys in. Maybe Nikolai Eelers picks up the damn phone. Like, so it’s it was very it made me very optimistic more so than I thought I was going to be going into it, but it also made me realize the timeline. The Red Wings still aren’t as close as we would like, but they’re close-ish, but like it’s you’re probably still looking at a couple more years before we can reliably expect any sustained success. Now, the one thing is, you know, especially in a league where half the league makes the playoffs. I don’t know that just getting into the playoffs is going to make fans feel like all of this has been worth it, right? Like, I’m not someone who’s like a rings like you have to win to have been any good, that kind of thing. You have to win the championship to to to be any good. I think if you make the Stanley Cup final, like you were clearly good enough to win the Stanley Cup. You just didn’t that year or whatever, right? You’re you’re good enough to be right there. I think the thing that separated the teams that had really successful like the the top of that list where it was like three Stanley Cups, two Stanley Cups, whatever, those teams did find a level of like lottery luck that the Red Wings, I think we could say by now, will not have had. And the only way to overcome that is that your your players that you did get, and granted the Red Wings highest pick in this rebuild is likely to end up being Lucas Raymond at number four, they have to give you first overall value. Lucas room is going to have to be first overall caliber. Edmonson and Cider, one of those two is going to have to be a top two or three. Maybe both of them are going to have to be a top two or three pick level value, I think, for the Red Wings to have that kind of success. But to make the playoffs, I I think they’re on track. I do. Even if it’s a year or two, three, or what whatever it is away from being a consistent playoff team, but I think they’re going to need one or two of these guys to not just hit, but overperform if they want to get into that next year up. It’s I’m glad you brought that up because it’s been something I’ve been thinking about lately and I I think it’s not necessarily the Red Wings lottery luck that has kind of caused a problem because you could argue very coherently and probably correctly Lucas Raymond and Moider are the second best players out of their drafts. If not definitively, they’re absolutely in the conversation. I think the Red Wings rebuild was at the worst possible time because there was a series of just very underwhelming tops of the draft. There were no Connor McDavids, Austin Matthews, Patrick Kanes. It was a whole bunch of Owen Powers and like Jack Hughes is a great player, but you know, you’re Slafski. Like the top of the draft while the Red Wings were in the heart of this wasn’t there weren’t generational players. Like who was the best of that bunch? like it wasn’t Lafrenier, wasn’t Rasmus Dene was the best number one overall pick maybe in this quote unquote rebuild of the Red Wings. So, I don’t think so much it was a lottery luck cuz I could argue every one of the Red Wings top 10 picks in that windows overperforming their slot. They’ve done exceptionally well given the hand they’ve been dealt with their drafting, but it just wasn’t those level of drafts that will get you, you know, the Patrick Haynes of the world. I think like I see what you’re saying, Brad, that it’s not like, you know, they it was the biggest loss in the world. And Red Wings fans have been saying that for a long time. We’ve been talking about it. Like, sure, the Red Wings drafted fourth and sixth and ninth, but they like they nailed those picks really. And we’ve we’ve yet to see a bust in that range. Statistically, we will. It’s coming. It’ll be probably one of the guys in the prospect pool now. But so far, they’ve turned out fantastic. But I still don’t see this as like a guarantee that they’re going to get into that 11 to 13 range to be like competitive, like serious competitors. I think you’re spot on, Brad. Sure. But I’m also going to draw on your point where you said like, yeah, once you’re in, then you get the Eers of the world to pick up the damn phone. And there’s a lot to be said about what experience and internal improvement brings you. Like I don’t know. I I the Red We saw the Red Wings are on the precipice. There’s there’s a a lot of credence to the fact that if they won a single 20-minute period against some Montreal Canadians last season, they very well could have been in the playoffs. Montreal, look what they’ve done from that that playoff birth. They got pounded. Like it wasn’t even close as we all predicted. But now they made a lot of moves. a lot of players who have grown up as Montreal fans and that like no adopts and love the idea of being a Montreal Canadian and made it work there and and took a I mean he got a big raise but it took a haircut on AAV compared to what he could have got in Columbus like Montreal is has made some shrewd moves and yeah that’s that’s driven by their team’s performance and Martan St. Louis and Nick Suzuki and Slavovski and all that but it’s also driven by the the trampoline forward from just making the playoffs. So the Red Wings have done a lot of the right steps even though the McKenna’s it’s too early for McKenna, the Matthews, the Dalian, etc. haven’t come to them. They’ve misstepped for sure. We’ve talked about that this episode even. But I think the core steps, the foundational steps that they needed to do are there. And I think they’re at the end of the tunnel. When they step out is is more in Steve Eisman’s hands than anything else at this point. And the other thing about this too, when you look at the teams that were very successful, isn’t like they have to do well with the draft, but not necessarily. Who is one of the most important pieces to Vegas winning a Stanley Cup? You could argue it was Payton Krebs. Really highly touted, good first round pick. Never played a game for them, but it got them Jack Eel. Nate Danielson may never play a game for the Red Wings, but if they trade him for Jason Robertson, hypothetically, like that’s still a positive contribution to a contending window. And yeah, it’s are the Red Wings at that stage where they’re they should be hammering trades like that unless it is for a level of Jason Robertson? No, absolutely not. for all the reasons we’ve already laid out, but eventually you get to that point and you don’t have spots for all the prospects you have right now. Like, think of all the projections we’ve done this episode alone with the futures and all the guys. We haven’t even said Buchelnikov’s name. We haven’t said Trey Austin’s name. We haven’t said Max Plant’s name. There is not space for all of them. Full stop. You’re not going to have it. So eventually once that snowball gets rolling and your core of young guys is established and you are making the playoffs, whoever’s not there at that time to sound callous, trade fodder. Like go get your guy. You have all these pieces and all of a sudden a you know firstline left wing comes on the trade market. Wow, we just made the playoffs. We got a stable full of prospects. We can go get that guy. All right, we’re going to let this this conversation marinate for a little bit. Max is about to go on vacation. So, I think Max, while you’re overseas, definitely not in Oklahoma. Think about this more and when we have you on in August, we’ll chat about it. For now, let’s move on to some quick NHL and beyond NHL news. First, the Isaac Howard sweep stakes are over. It was rumored that Edmonton was big on him and he does end up going to Edmonton, not for a first round pick, but instead in exchange for Sam O’Reilly, which I thought was an interesting trade. Isaac Howard, you know, a guy who’s ready now. Hobie Baker winner. Presumably, the Oilers want to use him as a cheap but effective option in their top six. And the Tampa Bay Lightning get Sam O’Reilly, you know, London Knights OHL champ. A player who is the 2024 late first round pick, but still a guy who could fit the same mold of being productive for the Lightning, just a bit later than than Isaac Howard. So, or he actually wants to go by Ike, which we should. And he’s been asking for that since the USNT TDP days. But that I thought was an interesting trade. Disappointing for the Red Wings that, you know, they didn’t get him, but I think it made the most sense that he went out west. Yeah. I I think I would like to see more trades like this in the NHL, right? Like this is the kind of deal that you can see a clear upside for the Edmonton Oilers in what they’re getting in Isaac Howard, a goal scorer who won the Hobie Baker last year, who can jump right into their lineup. We’ll see how high, you know, I think probably ideally it’s still probably more like a third line scorer type role to start, but you never know. And for the Tampa Bay Lightning, yeah, they could have used Isaac Howard right now, too. But once it’s clear you’re not going to be able to get him, they still extracted a guy who was a first round pick and Sam O’Reilly and who I think plays a pretty Tampa Bay Lightning style of play. I can see a world where two years from now, the Oilers are the ones like, “Ah, we could really use a Sam O’Reilly type right now.” But but two years ago isn’t what’s important for Edmonton. They have come so close to the Stanley Cup two straight years. They need help as soon as they can get it and Isaac Howard can bring them some help right now. It’s a fascinating trade and I wish more teams would do this. I wish they I wish we would see a team trade a a team that was forward heavy in their pipeline, trade one of them for a young D of a similar age. I wish we would see, you know, all kinds of things like that. So, applaud both of these teams for having kind of the they exposed themselves a little bit in in in making this to one of these guys being, you know, a lot better than the other, but I think it really makes a lot of sense for them both. And I I like the deal. And then other piece of news, this has big ramifications for the junior hockey world, the NCAA, a bigger conversation that we’ll probably have in the offseason, but for the sake of it, Gavin McKenna has committed to the NCAA, which we knew he was headed that direction. I think he got north of $700,000 in an NIL deal, a name image likeness deal. He’s going to Penn State, and I think it was down to Penn State and Michigan State. So unfortunately, we don’t get to see Gavin McKenna play in the state of Michigan, but Penn State gets a huge haul and that’s going to have big reverberations throughout the CHL, the NCAA, and we’ll see what cascading effects go there. So, I know there’s a few of you who are are Penn State alum, and congratulations. That’s going to be fun to watch. Yeah, I think he should have gone to Michigan. Uh, just a completely unbiased take. he really belonged in the Maze and Blue playing at Yos Ice Arena. But, you know, I guess Penn State’s cool, too. No, it it’s cool. I I really like the reasoning that he wanted to put a program that hasn’t ever gotten a kid like that kind of in that on the map in that tier. Like, Penn State’s been a really good program for a while, but one thing they haven’t been is an NHL factory. Well, you get Gavin McKenna and you get Jackson Smith. All of a sudden, you put yourself in that territory where you can be that. And honestly, Michigan State has much more history as a program than Penn State. Michigan State, I think he could have kind of been and they got Kaden Lindström, too, as a big-time prospect, but I think that would have been true of both of those schools. So, I I I do believe that was probably like a big factor in his in his decision. I I think the one question I have with McKenna going to Penn State is if he goes to Michigan State, that’s the best team in the country. And while I get that that like kind of maybe it’s not as like you’re not putting a kind of you’re not elevating a team in that same way. You’re not leading a charge back like that. I do think it would be really cool to see him work in that environment where he’s playing with, you know, a Caden Lindström. He’s playing with Shane Vansagi who’s a high pick this past year. Could have been Isaac Howard before Howard obviously signed. I think it would have been fun to see him operate in in that kind of situation and and maybe not always be the focal point, be the guy, but I do think in in going to Penn State, it it certainly gives him an opportunity to prove what he can do and prove he’s a big- time difference maker. So, it’s it’s a very interesting decision. It’s obviously phenomenal for Penn State, and I think it’s good for college hockey in general because I think a lot a lot of eyeballs are going to be on it. The Big 10’s going to be so exciting this year. Yeah, I I I like what you said about him wanting to go like the reason being wanting to go to a program that never had something like this. I think there was some other reasons, but we don’t have 700,000 seconds left before you have to wrap up, Max. But we’ll leave that there. All right, we’re going to take another quick break here, and when we’re back, we’re going to jump into the final segment on this episode of the Wing Wheel Podcast. Back after this, [Music] we’re going to overtime. Overtime is brought to you by our Patreon supporters. patreon.com/wingedwheelodcast if you want to support the show. The bonus episodes, the giveaways, the Discord, Max’s address, the secret thoughts of Evan Lopsinger as he sits here in the darkness as Brad said, like that guy from the X-Files smoking a cigarette. All that and lots more are your benefits for being a patron. So again, patreon.com/wingedwheelodcast. Some questions from patrons. Rosie Posie says, “This one’s from Max. Which hockey player or personality had you the most star struck when you met them? So, we can expand that to anyone in the the kind of media business. I know you might have answered this one before. You have a at least a couple really good stories here. What did I say before you? Shaq. Oh, Shaq was wild. Yeah. I I’ll be trying to keep it in hockey. Well, actually, first of all, I was a senior in college. The first time I got to be in an Angel press box, I was just stringing for the AP and I was very starruck to just hear Ken Daniels’s voice like behind me like walking around. Obviously been been very lucky to, you know, become friends with Ken and and that’s been amazing. But I was pretty starruck by him first of all. But I I would have to say on a on a player level, I have a photo of myself when I’m like eight or nine years old with Nicholas Cromwell at the Great Skate in Grand Rapids, which is where I grew up. And that’s like a tradition they do every year. It’s like a 24 hours there’s always a player or coach on the ice. It’s this outdoor ice rink in downtown Grand Rapids. And I used to love going and you could, you know, get an autograph from a player, get a picture with him. Nicholas Cromwell was a first round pick of the Red Wings when I’m like, you know, again, 8 n 10 years old. And he’s at the great skate and he played against me in bubble hockey. And I still to this day will never know and and have never known if he did this on purpose, but we were tied late in the game and he rimmed it around the entire thing and it went in his own net. So I won, right? like he I I beat Nicholas Cromwell in bubble hockey and and as a 10 or 11 year old or whatever it was. Doing the math in my head, it must have been at least 10 or 11. But that was like the coolest thing in the world to me. And only later was I like he might actually be good enough at this that he could have done that on purpose to like let me win. But he also might have been competitive enough that he wouldn’t have, right? So that was uh as a kid, right? And so a as an adult the first time going into a locker room that Nicholas Cromwell was in that was like you work really hard like in journalism school and all this stuff to just like you know just turn it all off be objective and and I think for the most part I really succeeded at that. But having that memory and having told so many people in my life that story about Crowall the first time like I’m like interviewing him that was like really cool I think in that way. All right next question here. I think Evan, you’re the best suited to answer this as a big purveyor of this phrase. Dallas Drake asks, “I’ve heard you guys use the phrase cardio game. What do you mean by that?” I wouldn’t know cuz I’ve never had to do one cuz um my cardio does not need working. I don’t need to work on it. But I think it’s essentially like you’re just out there for a free skate, right? Like not interested in playing the puck, not interested in getting any points or having impact on the game. you’re just out there for a good skate, get a good sweat, and work on your cardio. I think a a shift that you can look at is the Dubois, but that wasn’t a cardio shift because he didn’t actually go that hard. Like, this is like like you’re skating hard and you’re you’re getting your but you’re not really mentally, I don’t think, in it. You’re not going to like really touch the puck and do anything. It’s just you’re out there to skate and and not get benched for looking lazy. Dubois looked lazy on that show. There was this that’s fair. J Fresh came up with a stat just just on a whim for fun. It was a stupid thing, but it it was called stuff per 60 where just everything counted like any thing that you do on block shot, hit, pass, slot, turnover, turn like just stuff per 60. like you’re involved in the play and basically the high the lower you were on this list. You were a cardio merchant cuz you were on the ice a ton and involved in nothing. You were just doing laps around the ice. And I I I felt bad, but I died laughing when there was one guy who was in first for bad reasons cuz he did the least by a comfortable margin. It was actually JT Comfort. So go back and watch a couple of his games cuz I guess by the stuff per 60 metric, he’d be the poster child for it. When I go to beer league tonight, I will be it will be a cardio game. Like my my mind it’s it’s the first game of a new season. Spring season just ended. Shout out to the anchor men for for winning the the division championship. I’m going on vacation next week. All I got to do is basically get through this game uninjured and and I’m going to have a really good vacation. I have a feeling this is going to be a cardio game for I’m going to play hard, but I’m probably not going to accomplish a whole lot. All right, next one here from Patrick Dedric says, “Does Mario Ferraro make sense for the Red Wings?” So, a trade with San Jose for Mario Ferraro, and what would a trade package look like for him? The player makes sense, but I don’t again, I don’t see them probably paying the price. San Jose has been able to get like good good value for a lot of guys like this. They’re clearly not giving this guy away. I think he would cost you more than just like a second round pick. I think it’s like like a good prospect or they might even want more. Ferraro is a gritty like shop blocker type who I think would fit. I think he’d be an upgrade in the top four and I would not pay the price to to to do it because I think it’s just too high for what that role is. Yeah, he strikes me as a very good defenseman who because of scarcity gets placed in a much higher ability defenseman’s tier in terms of a return, which is why he hasn’t been traded before cuz this isn’t the first time Mario Ferraro’s name has been out there. And I think they’re right to hang on to him until someone’s willing to pay that price. Otherwise, they have a very capable defenseman. Their Canadian that’s how says, “Which Red Wings prospect’s ceiling is closest to that of Sam O’Reilly and do you believe trading that player would have been a good idea to obtain Isaac Howard?” Interesting thought experiment. So, assuming Tampa Bay was willing, who is Detroit’s closest comp to Sam O’Reilly? And would that have been worth it? Is it Carter Mer? Yeah, that feels right. And no, I wouldn’t have done it. I’d have considered it. I don’t know if I would have done it, but I’d have considered it. Is Isaac Howard any better than Elmer Soderblum for next year? Maybe. Wildly different. Wild. Very different. But I’m saying like impact like I don’t think he’s definitely better. Yeah, but with Does Maser’s injury history scare enough into making that trade? I’m giving him another year because apparently he has beefed up a lot with Draper confirming that he’s, you know, weighs a buck 95. We’ll see how that he how much of that is strength and converts to being a little bit more resilient before I label him as, you know, injury prone. We’ll see after that though. And he’s way more lineup versatile. Like you can find ro all kinds of roles for Carter Mer. Isaac Howard kind of has to be one thing. It’s a score on the top nine. All right, last one here from Daniel Kapla says overunder for you. Marco Casper 55 points next season. We’ll call it 55.5. Good line. Yeah, I’m going to go under, but you know, I don’t think that’s pessimistic. I’m going to say under, but not necessarily by much. It’s just 56 points is is a lot. And I don’t think there’s been very many rookies in the modern NHL who have not been prone to a sophomore slump. So, I’ll say under, but not necessarily a bad thing there. I agree. And I think people should not be disappointed. Like if he scores 51 points next year, it’s a really good second season in the NHL. The sophomore slump is real. It could be considerably lower and I don’t think anyone should panic that much, right? Like Dylan Lurin had one. Lucas Raymond had one. I think if he’s over 55, that’s like the biggest story of the season. Going to have 54 goals and zero assists. Johan Fronzen on steroids. I’ll go over and I’m gonna throw one caveat. Obviously, this he has to be one of the guys to buck the sophomore slump trend, but he put up the stats he did last season basically doing nothing in the first half of the season. There’s a very likely chance that he’s gonna get a full 82 games on a line with Patrick Kane and Alex Debrink and possibly like maybe not those two, maybe they shake up the top six, but he’s going to play in the top six for 82 games where he did that for 40ish games last season. So, I’ll say just due to circumstance, it should increase his production. And I’m a Marco Casper. The way Marco Casper plays, if anybody’s gonna puck that sophomore slump trend, it’s him because he only has one gear. I do agree. He doesn’t take anything for granted. He’s not going to get complacent. The one thing is like if you project out what he did over the 42 games to end the year, which is when he basically went into the top six, it’s like 58 59 points. Like you have very little margin for error and he shot over 18%. So that’s where I land at like I think it’s more like like 50 502. All right, Max, we have to let you go, you know, stand up for what you said against the great citizens of Oklahoma and then get away on vacation. Thank you so much to Max Baltman of the Athletic Detroit Wing podcast contributor for joining on this episode. Some housekeeping items. We are at some point going to enter our offseason schedule, which means going down to one episode a week and then there’s going to be most weeks a a second Patreon exclusive episode of some sort. We don’t know whether that’ll be next week or the week after. no matter what our next episode is going to be this Sunday. 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As the dust has settled in the NHL, we’re joined by Max Bultman of The Athletic Detroit on this remote episode of the Winged Wheel Podcast!
Tune in as we start with Max’s read on the Detroit Red Wings 2025 NHL Draft class headlined by Carter Bear, as well as an update on the Red Wings Development Camp (and how Kiiskinen, Brandsegg-Nygard, Finnie, and others stood out). Next, we discuss Steve Yzerman’s approach to NHL Free Agency, how Bernard-Docker, van Riemsdyk, Appleton, and other signings can slot into the Hockeytown roster, who will play in the top 6 alongside Dylan Larkin, Lucas Raymond, Marco Kasper, Patrick Kane, and Alex DeBrincat, if a defenseman is on the way to join Moritz Seider, Simon Edvinsson, Ben Chiarot, and Albert Johansson, whether Nate Danielson, Carter Mazur, Axel Sandin Pellikka, or other prospects could make the difference, & much more.
After that, notes on trade rumors surrounding Erik Karlsson, Dougie Hamilton, and Jordan Kyrou before we discuss the statistics behind rebuilds in the NHL and just how far along Steve Yzerman and the Detroit Red Wings are.
Finally, NHL news including the Isaac Howard for Sam O’Reilly trade & Gavin McKenna going to Penn State before we take your questions and comments in our Overtime segment – enjoy!
Intro: 00:00
Red Wings Draft & Development Camp Notes: 4:50
Free Agency and Team Outlook: 15:25
Karlsson Rumors, Hamilton, & Kyrou: 40:55
NHL Rebuild Timelines: 52:45
Howard Trade and Gavin McKenna: 1:05:50
Overtime: 1:08:05
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12 comments
First
Kasper 2C, who's going to be on the 1st line with Larks and Razor? A healthy Copp 2C and Kasper on the 1st line wing is a mistake
Hope everyone is enjoying their summer! Yeah, Bakersfield is home of Dwight Yoakim and Buck Owens… in Cali/Kentucky version. Oklahoma actually had the Tulsa minor league affiliate
Of the Edmonton oilers.
We are getting an ehlc team in Albuquerque this fall, but it will play in Rio Rancho
If the wings could sign Grzelyck for the third pairing, we might be happy with the results. Rosolovic or Olafsson would also be great ufa signings for solid third line adds…only for reasonable term. Slim pickings, but significant team improvements. Nick Tarnasty needs to be added the next Evan Lobsinger Knuckles Chuckers Golf Tournament/Octagon Extravaganza.
Bummer it's a remote podcast. I wanted to put in a bid in for Evan's next pair of sweaty Costco Puma socks from the show.
Good morning fellow europeans. Let's get this bread
Not sure why Karlsson wants to go to a non-playoff team.
Stuff per 60 is pretty funny 😂
Danielson line 1, game 1, calling it now
Elmer, Danielson and JVR as a new 'two kids and an old goat' line would be interesting.
Swedish J's are typically very voiced and in some words a Swedish G is pronounced the same way. So both are sometimes pronounced the same way an American Y. Yenbory would be a reasonable pronunciation of Genborg. Max did it very well, both times he tried.