Tony La Russa: The Chatter’s Box | St. Louis Cardinals

Tony La Russa: The Chatter’s Box | St. Louis Cardinals

Welcome back to the Chatters Box. My name is Kyle Mlullen, your host. And today we have a very special guest, a former manager of mine, a Hall of Famer, does not need any introduction here in St. Louis, Mr. Tony Larusa. Tony, thank you for stepping into the chatters box. How are you doing? Looking forward to this. You know, come back to St. Louis. It’s like coming home talking Cardinal baseball. Yeah. Can’t can’t get better than that. Love dealing with the media. Now I’m in the media. Now you got to deal with me and the media. Well, I I’m carving out an exception for you. Well, we appreciate it. Uh, tell tell the listeners and viewers what what are what is Tony Lausa doing these days. We know you know you’re obviously since your retirement, but what what has uh what has kept you busy and what what have you been doing? Well, after 11 season retired and then I went did some assignments for Commissioner Celic for a while. Then I had a chance to go upstairs with the Diamondbacks um like was it 14 to 17 and then I went to Boston for two years. Dave Dumbrosski asked me because they had Alex Core as a young manager. He didn’t need any help. That’s the year they had they won like 120 games and I was adviser. My advice was you guys are really good. Uh and then I was 20. I was going to join the Angels because I really liked their owner Arty Moreno. loves baseball and that was a pandemic. So I was set set to come back and uh Jerry Ryan store my original boss there with white socks says look come back and manage and what I learned that when you’re upstairs guys that do it for a long time it’s like torture because you can’t you just watch the game and you want to win as much as anybody fans guys and you can’t do anything. So I came back and they had a real good club. We won the division and next year middle of the summer I got the cancer. So that took me out and I came back a year later as an adviser. That’s what I’m doing now. I just kind of walk around their minor league system and and say, you know, I like this guy and we can improve that guy. It’s only thing I know how to do baseball. Yeah. So I mean let’s talk about that. That’s got to be totally different. Like you said, you can’t pull any levers at the top. You’re sitting in a suite watching the game. I mean, how is that for you? Me knowing you as well as I do, that has to be torture for you at at at some point. Well, you can’t have made a better point. Um, the action is down there just like what you’re doing now. You know, you watch the game and when you’re in uniform and you can go out there and compete, right? Um, so what I’ve learned is, you know, I love the game. So, I’m lucky to be able to stay close to it, but it gets really frustrating because you see stuff and uh it was explained to me this way. When you’re an adviser, you can suggest, you can try to persuade, but you got no thump. You can’t say, “Hey, let’s do this.” And that’s a good, you know, it’s a really good organization. They they’ve made some trades to get some good-looking young kids. They’re going to get better. Then that’s two very tough years. But still upstairs, that’s why I said it kind of the beginning. If you’re a lifelong general manager, sky and director, whatever it is, uh, you want to win as much as anybody, but the guys that have a chance to make the win happen or the guys in uniform and if you have coaching staff, you try to put them in a position position to succeed, but it’s all about being downstairs. So, it’s like torture at times. So, what what’s that conversation? you you watch and then do you go sit in the office at the managers and and talk through strategy or um what’s that relationship with and how have you had to walk that line of coming in and and you know standing over these guys? Obviously you’re you’re a big presence in the room. Uh so how have you built a relationship with them and built that trust over the years? Well, it’s different now to what it was when I was with the uh Diamondbacks. had some authority and even when I was with Boston uh Alex his first year and he wanted hey man if you see something let me know cuz that’s how you learn how I learned so I was more involved um my first year coming back after the illness I was with um uh Pedro there with Chicago you know and what you learn is unless you’re with the team and the coaching staff you come in and out and they treated me great you know, it’s the everyday going through with it, the ups and the downs. So, you try to be conscious of that. You know how it’s not easy. This year, um, we decided that, uh, myself and Jim Tomy, uh, once the summer gets going, we’re going to spend a lot of time evaluating the minor leaguers, and that’s different. You know, there’s, um, I have an opinion that, you know, Mlen needs to improve his breaking ball or something. So it’s you really don’t have as much contact when I walk around. You know, they ask even uh you I’ll give you a good example. Ali said come by and see him yesterday. So you know as a manager you have situations that develop and this is a really important point. This is what I had my whole career with guys like a Jim Leland or somebody. If you can if you can talk about a situation and you can trust that the person that you’re asking um has got has got an idea how to help and has no agenda and it’s going to tell you the truth. It’s very very helpful. So, you know, like with Ali, uh that’s unusual for this year. Most of the time just talking to the managers about what I see about prospects. So, the game is a lot different now. I talked to Mike Shannon about this years ago in spring training and I said the game’s changed more in the last 10 years than it probably has in the last hundred before and he said he you know he said yeah absolutely maybe even more than that when you came back when you left after 11 and then came back were you surprised at how different the game was or would was it not that different to you? Great question. I’ll try and give a an intelligent answer. Um there’s no saying the more more changes the more it’s the same. What I’ve seen was for a while and it was there when I uh was still managing the growth of statistics and you have guys that you know in fantasy baseball they live and die with their percentages and they don’t understand enough what they know and don’t know. a percentage is like you you’re he gets his slider over 42% of the time. Well, in a particular game when you’ve got it really working, it could be 62. If it’s not working, it’s 20. I mean, so what they don’t understand is when these are men, not machines, and those percentages only help you to the game starts. So when I got back, you know, fortunately with the White Socks, they had an appreciation of drawing the line. But I’ll give you an example. You know, um the stuff about, you know, if you hit 20 home runs and you hit 220, you’re a good player. No, no. It’s 20 hits. That doesn’t win games. Getting a base hit to start a rally, getting the guy over, get the guy in. So what I found was the teams that still could blend fundamental baseball and using the information have got a big advantage. I think it’s really helped that we, you know, we stop the the the uh way you could set your defense. Yeah. The shift. Yeah. Uh the shifting. I think the clock is good because there was too much dead time. But I’m going to tell you, brother, that you watch the way the game is played and when it’s over and you watch how it was won and lost, I’ll guarantee you there was a couple of big things that happened. And I always didn’t like some refer to the little thing. Like the Mlen cover first on ground, the right side. It’s a little thing. Little thing. It isn’t little. It’s it’s like a frequency, you know. It’s more frequent that you got to make a pitch, but if you got to cover thirst in the ninth inning to get that last out, then that’s as big a thing as you did, right? Well, the game is made on those infrequent little things. And if you really want to have a good year, you you got to master those as well as the big things. So, what I’m trying to tell you is blend all the information. Don’t let it overwhelm you. They have a terrible habit of coming in clubhouse and they’ll say, “Yeah, how could you let my club come pitch to that guy? You look at the numbers.” Well, and you try to explain. Yeah. So, uh, I really believe that I start to see more of an appreciation that fundamental baseball is still the best way to go. And every time I start thinking that, I hear some nonsense about he ain’t hit enough home runs. So, it’s it’s a continuing fight. Yeah. So the players was a different managing players in that break did that I felt like as I was getting ready to come out there was a shift in the locker room not just ours in every locker room in the game of these younger players coming up it’s different you walk in those clubouses and the interaction amongst themselves is less they’re more on their phones they’re more they’re more individualized I mean you know it just me going down to spring training afterwards I I walked in and saw that and um so when you coming back I mean it’s a different player you’re dealing with too and and I don’t think people understand as much the X’s and O’s of the managing side, especially now with the DH, in my opinion, is not near as important as it is getting 26 guys in one locker room to pull the same direction. The X’s and O’s, everybody that’s in that position knows the game of baseball. And there’s and you have great bench coaches. You could talk about this and we’re going to get I want to get into this with you a little bit later, but the biggest thing is managing that clubhouse. And I thought that’s where you excelled, you know, in in a in a huge way that people never saw. But how was that different coming back cuz the clubhouse had to be different, you know, 10 years later when you dropped back in? Everybody thought so. You know, I was older. Uh I couldn’t uh we had a great short stop, Tim Anderson, you know, real personality. He we’ll never as you know, I love you. I love you, too. Uh we created a family at the end of the season. and had all those guys. We won the 93 games, we won the division. People were talking about I come in here, it’s just like a family. You know what I’m trying to tell you is that culture. Yeah. That would come easier because you walked in as a rookie and say, “Wait a minute. I’m going to I’m going to I’m going to earn my way in here instead of walking in like, hey, I got all the answers.” Like it was easier to do it, but it’s now more important than ever. I’ll give you an example. A few years ago, the uh Rams won the Super Bowl. And I’m listening and the coach McVey is interviewed. He said, “Man, what was the number one thing that that got you guys where you are today, you know, Lombardi trophy?” He says, “Leadership in that clubhouse.” So if you take that step further, the managers and the coaches, we can lay out an expectation, but unless you have players that take charge of that club and you know, you as you grew in from where you started to where you ended, I’ll give people a great Mlen story in a second, but can’t wait, you know, carp and those guys, you know, we we’re doing something that’s gelato with Daryl Kyle, you know, Adam Wayright, the veterans, the players, you know, was Rol and Edmonds poo ho they showed you. Wait a minute. No, no, that’s not the way we do it here. We do it all together. You know, we don’t come in here after get losing the ninth inning, pull out our phone and start laughing with your friend. So, um I remember the uh this one of my favorite stories, 2011, uh you know, there was always a question of we know that you could pitch as a starter. Mhm. But it’s, you know, when you have a guy that can get multiple outs like you could or could pitch one inning or get one hitter out, you were very valuable, unfortunately for you cuz you wanted to start. So Adam Wayne Wright gets hurt in spring training. It’s one of my favorite stories. You told me before we have a little time. So we always had a strategy for injuries, adversity. You concentrate on what you have, not what you don’t have. So I would have that speech every spring. this beautiful story. So, Adam gets hurt and he comes into the club eye. He’s going to have surgery. He says, “Uh, you’re going to have that speech today?” I said, “Yeah.” He says, “Let me have it.” And I thought that was one of the great thing because he knew it. So, he stood up there and he says, “Oh, you know what we do around here? When somebody gets hurt, we concentrate on what we don’t have. We concentrate on what we have and all we don’t have.” And he mentioned, “God, Kyle’s been waiting to start since he got here.” So he’s going to be in that rotation. Kyle Lo is I mean he mentioned your name now. How did we survive? You came in there as a starter and and that’s I mean I go for on forever the value of culture. Yeah. People being comm committed to earning each other’s respect, trust and caring for each other. You know, it’s like when you say I love you, you know I love you. That’s the foundation. But you got to have somebody can enforce it. Yeah. And coaches have a role, manager has a role, but when we walk out of there, you guys are in you’re in the back of the plane. You’re on the back of the bus. And you can tear a club apart by nonsense. I mean, you can bring it together by not allowing. So, like I say, you you picked the right subject. And my point is, it’s still probably more important than ever, but you need to work harder to make it happen. So when people ask me all the time, what’s it like to play for Tony? Um I this is you can I want you to tell me if you if you think this is an accurate description. So I said Tony has a presence. So So he’s he’ll what people didn’t didn’t see about you was the behind the scenes. You’re actually funny. Yeah. Like believe it or not, people people don’t believe that watching your press conferences, but you funny you care about your players, right? So you’d get to know the players, their wives, their families. Family was always important to you. We you allowed us to have our wives on the plane more than any other team in the club, which was extremely valuable and appreciated on our side. Kids could be on the plane if we were going to certain places and and you always put a priority on that. You ran that locker room, but you stayed out of it. So, I would say you would see Tony walking down the hall and you knew there was a presence. It was like you you just knew when Tony was in the hallway, you know, it’s just you’re a larger than- life person, but you stayed in the you stayed in the in your office and you had amazing leaders. When I was there, it was Chris Carpenter. And if if you don’t have car I mean, you had Wayne, right? You had all these other guys, but Chris Carpenter ran our locker room, so you didn’t have to. That’s right. But I’m sure there was probably some times where you pulled Karp aside and said, “Hey, can you deliver a message to that locker room for me?” but is you were very careful. We might have had two meetings every year, maybe a team meetings. You weren’t big on team meetings because it was all a rahrrah and and you would pick the right time to do it. But if you’re in there every week having a team meeting, it loses its punch. And so you deliver that message through CARP. You also had an amazing coaching staff that you let coach That’s right. So you had Okendo who you let him do his thing because you trusted him. You have Dave Duncan who you trusted him on the pitching side and Dave McKay. Dave McKay, Joe Batini, Marty Mason, all those guys. But to me, Mike Aldrey when I was here Yeah. was your most key one because he was the one that was friendly and had the he was friends with the players and you really that was always a thing coming up through the minor leagues. There’s a separation, right? There’s a respect and obviously we always respected Aldo, but Aldo would be playing cards with us on the plane. That’s right. He would come in and have lunch with us. He’d sit down and I’m assuming that there was some meetings that you said, “Hey, go talk to Mlen and let him know this.” And so you’d be playing cards and then all of a sudden in a casual friendly way, Aldrey would deliver that message and you knew what that message was. So I thought the way that you ran the clubhouse through the other people that you had around you was brilliant and it allowed that separation that if you came to me in the outfield and talked to me, it was like, “Okay, this is I need to be paying attention. And there’s a there’s a big deal there. But you had other guys, you worked through other guys to do it. And I think it kept that separation. I think it kept that respect. But you also your veteran guys loved you because they had a say, right? You you brought them in and allowed them to run it. And I think that’s from a skill set of leadership. That’s something I’ve always gone back to and the way that you ran that and put good people around you and trusted them. And it’s easy when you’ve been with those guys for so long and those co all those coaches you mentioned. Would you agree with that assessment of from playing for you for four years? Because uh well you you said a lot that that’s important there. One just to pick up right at the end there Aldo not many guys could do that. No because the one thing that has to be about that is that anything that Aldo could heard playing cards he can’t run into. Hey, do you know that uh McCullen um was at the park late today if I hadn’t know it? Mhm. So, you can’t you can’t and you can’t put them in a position, hey, what what is what’s going on? What you have with leadership is you have an understanding that problems that are not addressed can be killers, right? So the understanding is that if there’s a problem in that clubhouse the leader you know so whoever it was come say Tony you know the guys are I get we want kids around but but sometime when we get beat and the kids come ringing and you know so we give them 10 minutes or if there was something that we felt yeah you know um there are times that to be to save energy in hot together, we would not have batting practice. So guys seem like they played that game like oh it’s a half a day off. So you tell the guys look you guys I’ll say it but you guys got to understand that we need to be take play hard every day all the time. So if we don’t have batting it doesn’t mean that this game is not important. My point is you had this communication about problems. Mhm. And I I’ll give you at the end of 2010, we had a disappointing 2010 where we were in a position to win and we did was one probably probably the only time it really happened during that era. We you know we should have won but and when it when it was over I thought it was me that and you know been around too long and I was ready to just and a couple of leaders kind said Tony it’s not you and we had problems in that club. I’m not going to get into it publicly. You you there’s a couple of guys that were messing around there and the leader said it’s our fault we should have corrected it and didn’t tell the coaches and me. So the good news is we want you to come back. I says come back. We won the championship. Yeah. I would have walked out. So I’ll give you the other PS that I think fans would enjoy. It’s so important that and this is another PS. Uh there’s a famous basketball player that became part of a big league team and he was one of his comments he said publicly I’m here. He said we need leadership. and he mentioned one player and one pitcher and I think you know I’m not going to be disrespecting him because this guy’s a great hall of famer but this is not a 12man 14man thing you know we got 25 and you need more than one leader because you can get have injuries my book so we always had a group of leaders and our guys eight or 10 guys so this is what we used to do with our routine that the first day of spring training, everybody was there, the the leadership guys, they came in at 7:30 and either between CJ or or Barry or somebody, we got their Starbucks order and if they wanted a muffin. So, we had the meeting and they had their Starbucks and the whole point was we were going to spend half hour, 45 minutes because maybe the team meeting was 8:30 and they and they knew we were going to go back to last year. What was good? Let’s do it again. Hey, what should have been done better? I never got I got one that I can tell I don’t really want to get into it. And you think so? And so we addressed it. So at that time we all we established the rules. We’re going to be honest. This is all about us. This is what the coaches can do. This is what players can do. And if we don’t communicate and if we’re not and and the thing I I I beat into the ground, but it’s so beautiful as I’ve learned over my career now. When you build that fun, it’s just like your family. You got a great family. The kids have got to respect you by the way that you treat them. They got to trust you and you got to show them you care. What we did was until the end of I tell you it ain’t about the wins. My favorite part of my life is with Chicago St. Louis teammates, coaches, we all Hey man, we’re all a family. Well, that becomes critical. And then once you have that foundation, then you start, hey, it means we’re going to practice. We’re going to play hard. We’re not going to We’re not going to complain if we get have to sit around for two hours. It rain out. We’re going to be tough. We hope we were tough. I go on forever, but the biggest thing is how it started. It’s not automatic now, but it’s actually more important than ever. So, when you see like I watched the Pacers, you know, remember Rick Carl, he was with us towards the end of 11th season. the guts that those guys showed is because they were they were together and and you see a lot of teams that are talented, they get to September and all of a sudden they disappear because they did they they weren’t tight. They weren’t they weren’t tough enough. Well, and you gave ownership to the players. So in that meeting, I mean, the things that would be discussed, not just the X’s and O’s and the what do we do good, bad, it’s what are we wearing on the plane, what’s our dress code, what’s our deal on this, and you know, and then you guys would set that and and the players had a say. And so then obviously they’re going to fight for that and defend that. Hey, we don’t want to take BP on day games, whatever. Well, that’s fine, but we still got to play. So if you put it in the players hands now, all of a sudden they’re like, hey, we’re doing you guys a favor, but we gota we got to show Tony that we don’t need BP, you know, to go do these things. and and it puts a little bit more on that side of it. There there’s something you got to be careful with that one. You want to give them the ability, you know, like if we have a a Sunday game and we’re off Monday, uh, and we’re going somewhere, do you guys want to spend Sunday night in that town? Maybe you do because you’re taking wives. or do you want to spend Sunday with your families and we leave Monday? That decision is your guys. But if the if the players come says, “You know what? Uh we don’t want to have any more um hitter meetings.” Oh, really? Or if say, you know, we used to have the reliever meetings, you know, before you know, we just played these guys 10 days. We we don’t need to have that many. So there’s there’s only so much. You only give them the only give them a say in so many are. Yeah, there’s some things you got to say, hey, it’s your I got the office. You got the locker. We got to do it this way. So, what’s the um today’s game watching not as many bunts, you know, stolen bases are coming back a little bit. Is that is that hard for you? Because I I sit there especially the extra inning thing and I’m like, man, if you can get a guy over, you know, and get him in, you get one run and and and you’ll even see it on the the home team if they hold them without a run. and look them and they don’t bunt, you know, to get them over. It’s like, you know, they’re counting on that base hit. So, I mean, that the game has changed a lot in that way, which is where you thrived and and I think we held on longer than most teams of doing the little things and and we executed it and we practiced it and it was an emphasis and it was a big part of our success. Is that hard for you to watch at times? Yeah, it’s it stinks. And that’s why, you know, I want to tell the White Socks if you play the game correct correctly when others are not, that’s a heck of an edge. Yeah. So, you just gave one, right? So, it’s uh tie game. You’re the home team. They don’t score. You got to do a score. You got to run around second base. Well, the guy doesn’t bunt him over. Number one, maybe the guy don’t know how to bunt, which there’s probably more of that than people think. So, in spring training, I’ll give you a quick story. Um when Albert went to the Angels and I was with the commissioner’s office and I visited and I you know my think my Scotia is outstanding. He says Tommy come here cuz when we went we always would do the station of bunning and bass running. So Mike would take his sluggers go to the cage work. So Albert said oh no no I I got to go bunt and base run. He says what? He said, “Oh,” I said, ” Tony,” he said, “When I” He said, “Tony,” he asked me, “Tony, did you do that?” I said, “Yeah, those guys, you know, one thing, they bunted for base hit.” Yeah, they had to run the bases. My point is, when you make that decision, if the guys don’t know how to bunt, you don’t b. But here’s the other one. Happens more often. Okay, you b them over. But if the guy only knows one thing, I’m going to try and hit a home run. And if there’s a guy on base, I’m going to try and hit a two-run homer. or if there’s two guys on base and a three-run homer instead of understanding that all you got to do is hit a line drive single or a fly ball then wait I ain’t going to bunk because I got to know how to get them home. I repeat, if you play if you teach the basic game, especially late in the game against really good pitching, the hardest thing to do is hit a home run. You better do something like get a base hit, get on rally. I better find a way to put it in play and get them over. That’s why um you know I’m not around the Cardinals enough. Yeah, I I got a feeling you know knowing Ali and you know now that you got Dcalzo and Jay and I had some fun with him yesterday about fans will like this one. But anyway, if you if you don’t have the basics down, yeah, you can’t. And if you’re stupid, if you don’t because you’re it’s easy and I say this, it’s easier to win now than ever. Yeah. So many clubs are not fundamentally based. Here’s my point for the fans. If they remember game six after free hits to triple, the next inning, Dalzo and Jay led off with hits, right? So I’m walking through the clubhouse yesterday going to see Ali and they come. Hey, man. Tell these guys what we what we did, you know, 10th inning. I said, ‘ Yeah, pinch hit it. Got hits against the left-hander. Yeah. I said, “Hey fellas, the only reason they pinch it, I didn’t have anybody else in the dugout but them.” Lost their credibility. Well, they came through. I’m glad they did. What uh talk to me about Dave Duncan. Dave, Dunk was um I mean in my time I get asked probably the most about what was it like playing for Tony and what was it was like playing for Dunk and I tell people Dunk Dunk could go a whole year without saying a word to you but when he did it was something that was like career changanging when he talked to you and as you got to know him you know there was more in there didn’t say a lot but man had such a a huge impact in in in my life and career um believed in me gave me an opportunity you know, um and it was just it was it was awesome to be a part of that and see um the preparation, the meetings, everything how he goes about it and and and you can see why it was successful. And then him part paired with Marty Mason who was, you know, a great bullpin coach and mechanical guy. You know, I try to explain to people a lot Dunc wasn’t very mechanical. You know, he came to me one time in San Diego. He said, “Hey, something looks different.” And Marty and Yachti, you know, and Yacht’s like, “Yeah, it looks different.” And he’s like, “Marty, we’ll get with you tomorrow.” So they were a great team. He understood that mechanically he was a catcher and yeah he understood pitching mechanics but Marty was really the mechanical guy. So these guys that came over and revitalized their careers. It was a tag team there. There was Marty who was working on some mechanical stuff. It was Dunk who had the strategy and right and and approach and maybe he was going to have them throw a certain pitch a little bit more than he’s done before or less. And um but I mean you guys were together for so long. You know he’s now in the Cardinals Hall of Fame. I mean talk a little bit about your relationship there. 29 years. Yeah. Well, I signed when I was 17 years old. The Kansas City A’s 1962 63 days signed. So, we’ve actually known each other since ‘ 63. And then, uh, Renee Latchman signed 64. He was a coach for a while. And so, growing up in minor leagues, the catch was either Latch or Dunk. So, we played together. And then Dunk was always more mature than the rest of us. Uh, I try not to be disrespectful to other pitching coaches, but I got to say he’s the greatest pitching coach of all time. And the reason is you could make up 10 things that you’re going to hire a pitching coach and you identified 10 things and everybody else that’s good will come in about seven or eight. Dave even mechanics he knew but he trusted Marty especially you know he Dave was more more u more work more with the starters mechanics Dave checked every box and he had this thing where like you say he didn’t say a lot but you knew he’s watching he had the ultimate trust because it remember we always said kid he’s he he made sure that I took 10 minutes with the press so he could shower and get out of before they got there. We always accuse them of pulling a hamstring, getting out of there. So, it was never, and this is a good one, this a good point for for fans to hear, leadership, coaching, it’s about them. It’s not about yourself. More leaders in business or manager coaches when they start getting their name in the paper. The reason Dunk was famous because he did for 29 years, but he never looked for it. So, it’s getting the work out of the people. I just talked to Woody. Woody’s coming to this thing July 16th. Dave added a slider with him. Uh before when we were with Oakland, he got Mike Mike Moore, a great slider, great value, give him a split finger so Dunk could analyze, but then he would look at, you know, I’ll give you, this is good because I’m not hurrying as much. He had Chad Blair, the secret weapon, who chart everything. Chart was and Chad was meticulous what the pitch was, the location, and where the ball was hit or what the outcome. And that was on the chart. The next day, Dave would come into the conference room, lay out the chart, and he’d bring out his book. So he might he’d have like the last 75 at bats of Robin Yan or something and he would take the four at bats and he would input what he do first pitch boom. So if Cal comes in there and uh and and and you’re going to face Robin Yat, he’d tell you, “Look, throw the ball here. He’s going to get you to throw the ball there. You get him out.” And he was the guy that we did our defense. Yeah. Our we we our defense was lined up because Dunk had a spray chart. So he was so far ahead of his time. That was way before everybody else is doing it. So I remember he I give you an example. always I love that when you make a point you tell a story you know we didn’t like Cincinnati remember so it was there towards you know maybe nine 10 something like that so we had a one-run lead bottom of the ninth and Ryan Franklin was our closer and uh somebody whoever was a bat dunk makes a trip with one out comes back out ground bought a short double play win the game so I dunk what’ you tell He says, “If you throw your slider and you get on the outside part of plate, the rain, he’s going to pull it to the left side and get a double play.” Now, that’s part of Davis. The other thing was he worked so hard pregame to prepare with the pitch starting pitcher especially and the catcher because he wanted the catcher run the game because the catcher seeing what the guy’s got, where the hitter if he’s making any switches. But don’t be fooled. Anytime the catch was stuck, he just looked in there. And there’s famous times where managers want to be a part of it. Hey, make sure you look at and all of a sudden it’s three two of the bases loaded and catch look over the manager can’t get it. Dave was give you he gave you the pitch. So he had this uh ability. You could bring in a a guy that was quiet. Bring a guy like Tiver who’s got a lot of noise. You could bring in a guy that had too much ego, no ego. Dave had a way. And one of the things I loved, I learned from him and he could feel it. He felt it. Dave believed that if he showed that he believed in you, you would rise to the level of expectation. If you had the feeling that, hey man, you are what you are and I can’t help you. that you maybe you’re strong and good enough to help yourself, but you never had to worry because Dave was going to give you some This is where you can get and if you got a reputation for being honest and not BS being. Yeah, man. Don’t think so pitch, which is what he did with you. Yeah. And there was no I mean, he was as straightforward as they came. That’s right. I mean, he would deliver that message bluntly um if if it needed to, but you knew when he was telling you that it was the dead honest truth. and he was telling you what he thought was the best way to be successful. Probably the u most misunderstood cuz teams tried to steal them over you were 29 years. Yeah. They would offer money and ability to really uh take over the pitching staff and they meant make all the moves and all that and they thought that that’s what they want. He said no because he worked so hard during the game at who was pitching watching the pitcher. He was a aware of the game situation, but he wasn’t looking like the manager would look. Manager looking at the big picture. So, you know, we said, “Hey, I think I think I think K’s kind of losing it. No, I think he’s okay.” Or vice versa. But I always made the decisions. Yeah. And that’s the way Dave wanted it because, you know, there’s an open base and I want to face him. So, we all laugh because they came after him. You can have the pictures. Yeah. That ain’t what I want. I’m staying here. Yeah. So, let’s talk about when you came to St. Louis. You you come over. Obviously, I think one of the things that I um enjoy about you is you always recognize the history and the greats, right? I mean, you’re always super respectful to all those that have done it before you or have done it at a high level and you make sure they’re included and make sure that they’re valued. So, when you come over here and you get the job in St. Louis, you know, it’s a historic organization at the time. You know, it’s not like they’re going to a bunch of World Series right there. how from from a leadership I mean just talking more leadership with you. What is your approach to that as you come over you got some experience you come into this situation knowing that you have to change things and you got to get guys to buy in. I mean that talk about when you first came over here and and how you know you started your tenure here with the Cardinals. Well I I had some real advantages for when I was raised in Tampa, Florida and my dad six days a week was a hard labor big baseball fan. So on Sundays, spring training in Tampa, the White Socks and the Reds trained St. Petersburg, Yankees and the Cardinals. So one weekend we every weekend for what it was like four weekends, my dad, my uncles. So I was a young kid. I was I learned about the Cardinals. I Hey, look, that’s mutual. That’s you know, really really. So I grew up knowing about the Cardinals and Yankees. You know, I love Mickey was my favorite player. So then I had uh 16 years the American League with the DH. So there was a belief that you can’t imagine National League with the double switches on. I said okay. Sparky Anderson always told me says Tony he knew I love the game. He says someday before you retire you got to go to the other league. So I always in spring training when we played remember we used if you played a National League club there was no DH. I always managed those games like I was and I did it just because I was curious. I didn’t know that I was going to go to St. Louis. So I I had the history down and this is a cute story. I walk in, there’s Jack Buck and Mike Shannon. I had known Jack a little bit through the years. I didn’t know Mike knew of him. And they both right away embraced me because they wanted me to get a fair shot. And Jack in in a in a in a nicer way, Mike in a more arm around my neck kind of way. They wanted me to understand what it was to manage the St. Louis Cardinals. And and I tried, you know, I I said, “Yeah, they tell me about it.” But I I knew about the Cardinals. I came I used to go to all World Series. So 82 85 87 I was a guest at those days. Um not wait 8 I was with the with the ape. So my general manager we used to come. So I can remember coming to St. Louis and wow look at this place you know. So I had an idea. My beautiful part about that is that the first road trip Shannon comes up to me. We we’re going I think we’re going someplace west coast. He says what are you doing when we land? And I said, “Well, I talked to him none of your business, but I know he kicked my butt.” I said, “Well, I don’t.” He says, “We’re going we’re going to dinner.” I said, “Okay, Mike.” So, why’d you go to dinner? He’s going to lay out for me what managing the St. Louis Cardinal is all about. Here’s the fans, the history. And Jack Buck one time told me, he says, “Look, there’s I love this stuff, man.” He says, “There’s great fans all over. There’s only one fan like the Cardinals. Every place else they’re with you. Win or tie. Cardinals, if you give the best shot, they’re win with you win or lose. So that time it’s about the fans, the history. A big thing Mike talked about, which was that Cardinal baseball was fundamental. Play hard, play together, limit mistakes. Well, I didn’t say anything. I’m just listening. But I knew I was raised with the Oakland A’s when they won 72 3 and four. I I was there playing in my line 71. I was in big league when they traded me. Well, they won with fundamental baseball. They had like Dick Williams, great manager. So when I was a manager and had the coaching staff and we got in three World Series and think we were talking about last night, we lost 88 and 90. I lost because I did a terrible job getting ready, but we had a great team. We had a great team that played the game right. So, I had a huge advantage. I knew the history and I knew the style of play and uh all I had to do is prove it. So, I’ll give you I don’t know if you appreciate this or not what the fans do. I ended up the love affair of my life is Red Shandings. I loved him with a passion. Best part of my cardinal life was because the pitchers hit at home. When they the starters hit, our position players stretched. Red and I would go to left field and shag. So for 16 years, six 50 60 times I’m out there with that. I can’t tell you what a beautiful, beautiful man he is. Spring training, as you know, all the greats would go there and sign autographs. In fifth ring, they leave. Red stay there for nine innings and he was so observant, so wonderful. So here’s here’s my true story. St. Petersburg for my first year first game as a white sock uh cardinal manager spring training and uh it’s about the fifth or sixth inning. So Stan and Gibian’s got it all left. Red’s standing behind me at this. So it’s a classic situation. There’s a runner on. We’re playing defense. There’s a man on first base with 3-2 count. and a right-hand hitter is hitting. So the first looks at me, I said, “Stay there.” So red shed behind me all says, “Skipper, you know, like I maybe I didn’t realize you play behind the guy at first base, weren’t you?” And I thought to myself, “Holy smokes, Red Shandies thinks I should play behind the runner.” I I can’t explain to you more dramatically that man I said I’m was freezing up man because if I don’t play him I’m disrespecting but I don’t think so and I always I survived because somebody said man no guts you know you trust your gut don’t cover your butt and I said you know I’ll explain in a minute but rightand hitter if I give him that jump I don’t think the ball’s going to go over there I’m think if he hits the ball go over there. I’m dead. And so he says, “Oh, so the pitch is made.” And then I looked at I said, “Red,” he says, “Tony, I think you should have played, but I respect the fact that you had an idea.” And I thought, “It’s my first game.” I said, “I got off to a terrible start with that man.” And it became the relationship of my life, you know, Greek. Uh so the history I think it’s a great advantage as you know in spring training we talked about we’re accountable this season. Uh we all have to do our part. This is a St. Louis car. We’re expected to win. That’s what we had. You got to handle the pressure here. You know we can’t win by accident. I thought it was a huge advantage for us as long as we were specific about challenging you guys. You got the birds bet now and look, we had some damn good years. Yeah. Talk about some of the great players you had over your time here in St. Louis. I mean, you you know, Maguire, Edmmonds, Roland, um I I’m sure I’m missing a handful there, but any of them that that stick out that Yeah, all of them. I was I had last yesterday after the game, I went and uh with a good friend, great Cardinal fan, R Ari Levy and we were talking about it. One of the things came out about importance of players, big situations, little situations. And I learned I hated the word little little ball. It’s more frequency. You know, if you got to make a pitch, that’s that’s big thing. If you cover first, that’s a less frequent. But if you don’t cover first in a key time, you lose lose the game. So by all the stuff we talked about, if you were a player who who did everything you could to earn the respect and trust and you cared about your your your your contribution and how you connected with your players, then you’re as big a favorite as anybody. you know, Aaron Miles, Nick Pun, you even even Skip Schumacher just said, you know, I hate utility player. They just play different positions. They start. So, my point is that, yeah, we had some great players, but for us to win over 162 games, you had to have great teammates who less frequently were called upon, but they were there ready to do it. So, but I will say this. We talked about last night, 2004 World Series. We got swept. Now, we had just beaten a really good uh Houston team. They were great team and they had Roger and so we we earned that and by that time, as you know, Karp got hurt in September and by then Woody and and Matt’s arms were hanging. It’s not when you start to explain it comes out like excuses and I we should have never gotten beat before because it’s disrespectful to us. You know, if we got beat in six or seven, but the point I’m making is you see a picture of opening day and here’s on the right side there and Fenway is the Red Sox. The left side is Carnos and this is our lineup. Edgar Ria, Larry Walker, Albert Pools, Scott Roland, Jim Edmonds, Reggie Sanders, and then we had Mike Matheni, we had Tony Wac and whoever the DA Souchi that’s I mean those guys. So, we had great teams. Um, and that’s part of why we had that those years where we won. We didn’t win all the time. Next year, 05, remember, we got beat, but because Houston was really good. I get one more thing. The 06 championship, we won in 11, we won as much because we were mentally tough because we have all those injuries. We never gave in. We got in the last day of the year and then we we had we had that great comeback in 11, right? Because we were tough and we were together and uh you know we didn’t win 10 and some games. We won the World Series. The the 11 team so you knew you weren’t coming back at what point of that season? Um you know as we talked about in 10 I thought there’s an old thing about you know if you’re with with an organization as a manager you know this is managers talk about this six seven years people get tired of you fans get tired of you players get tired of you so I was already you I got here in 96 you know 2006 and I saw man they need somebody else um but you guys kept saying I know we had a that thing going. The biggest misunderstanding was when I retired, it wasn’t because I was out of gas. It’s because of something you know about. But I knew that this one particular thing was wearing me out, beating me up. And I had decided around the All-Star, I told my wife and kids, I said, “I think I’m done.” And then because made that great comeback, Ela and a girl were shocked when I quit. But here’s the thing to wore me out and you know it. We used to have a meeting in spring training. I went out of my way to never do anything to give the other club an excuse to drill one of our guys. You know, we were ahead. I didn’t embarrass anybody. The guy hit us. We pitched him differently. We didn’t hit him. But this is I hear this nonsense about your old school and the way it is. Teens will try to aggressively intimidate you. Football, basketball, baseball, hockey, I don’t care. If you allow it, you’re going to lose an edge. So in baseball, they’re going to try and intimidate you. So we had the meeting right in spring training. We will never hit somebody first. If you can’t get somebody out, we’re going to pitch them differently, tougher, but we’re not going to hit them. But if somebody is going to do one of two things, be careless enough to where if you can’t have control inside, don’t pitch inside. Or if you take a shot at us, then we’re going to protect our guys. And here’s the point of this, and this is it’s easy to talk about now because it’s Yeah. years ago. We never had one fight in my 33 years of managing and I played where that you had him because when the typical season Kyle is pitching Edmmonds gets hit. He’ll go right to you. Oh, Kyle, you got you got to protect me, man. That guy hit me on purpose and now wait a minute. We all think the guy just pitched you inside. We don’t we don’t think so, but he’s my teammate. Oh, by the way, we’re winning two to one. I’m going to go out there and hit somebody. So the way that I solved it, I said I will make the decision. Now I had coaches I you know you think but that means that if Jim if you think you’re not being protected your arguments with Tony Mhm. you don’t go to the pitcher pitcher if you think that um you’re in a situation you need to protect somebody you make don’t make that decision. I only had one pitcher my whole career that was Dave Stewart one time did it on his own. But the problem point of that there’s two points. Number one, our the other side knew that we were going to protect and that helps our guys have big ears. And it was all when we protected it was always as you know from the rib down. It was never here. Never. Yep. Well, that decision from the first day of spring training game when you watch and every ball gets thrown in the side, you’re thinking, I have a responsibility to this team and it’s a really hard call when you say, “Man, we’re going to drill somebody.” It beat me up, wore me out. And I had enough of that. And that’s why even to this day when I went back in 21, you know, I went back and there was one time a Brio got hit two games straight and they barely a guy guy’s throwing the ball back to the screen wild. They hit him and that time I had a bad back and and and I ran out and pushed the catcher. Oh, you know, we didn’t mean to hit him. I said, “Well, you meant the to Yeah. Well, so here it is. You know, I’m 65 some years old then. It’s a long-winded answer. I hope the fans maybe they don’t appreciate it. But if you think about that responsibility, yeah, it beat me up because if we knew like we were going to face this head hunter on the other side and there, you know, there were guys around there. I would look and see when he’s pitching and then I would count five days and if he wasn’t pitching if I knew he was going to pitch for a week I’m thinking that day I’m thinking it’s going to happen. You got to make a move. Work work me out. And and I since you talked about it I I we’ve been we’ve had several meetings especially went to Pittsburgh. They pounded Albert in all the time. And I always appreciated that. You would stand up and you would say they they beat him up inside. Maybe they hit him, they hit his hands, they did whatever. And you would say, “If anybody’s got a problem with it, you come and talk to me. And this is the reason we didn’t do it.” And, you know, maybe we play them next, you know, month or they come in or whatever. But the league’s more involved now. It’s different than it used to be. People get have bigger contracts. There’s a lot of different things that came into it. And so there was there was always a a reason behind it. I I’m going to give one example of of a um a situation because you had told me you said I will lose a game to prove a point and a stick up for my guys. And I always knew that about you. And then it happened. I’m pitching. I’m I’m getting ready to warm up and the phone rings while I’m warming up and I’m like, “Oh boy, that’s not good.” and Marty Mason came up and he said, ‘Hey, the first hitter here, Unelar, Tony wants you to throw in on him, but don’t hit him, but make sure you don’t throw behind him, but move his feet. And I’m like, what in the world is that? You know, like, what am I supposed to do with that? It’s a one to nothing game. We’re winning in the eighth inning. And and I’m now I’m sitting there thinking now if I hit this guy and I put him on, you know, like we potentially are going to lose the game. And uh so I go out there and he’s in Atlanta so Bobby Cox is in the other dugout and I throw a first pitch sinker. I mean perfect right right at him and he has to do the running out of the box thing. His hands are all up high. He’s back by the on deck circle, you know. And I’m like, man, I did it absolutely perfect. My heart is racing because you also know Chris Carpenter taught me this. If you’re going to play around, you better be ready because at any moment you got to I mean it it’s coming. Now, in those moments, usually the corner infielders knew and the catcher knew and their job was to cut him off so that they didn’t get to the pitcher. So, this was a whole, you know, everybody knew what was going on. So, anyway, I end up walking him on four straight pitches because I’m so like amped up and flustered and all the things and I, you know, it’s just different. And I throw that first pitch though and Bobby Cox is screaming at me on the field and you guys are screaming at each other and I stepped off the mount. I was rubbing up. I was like, “This is pretty awesome. Bobby Cox is wearing me out right now. Well, he knew exactly what you were doing and I don’t know what the situation was, but you I mean obviously you guys are two of the best going at it uh the game within the game there and you guys are screaming at each other and I walk him and I’m thinking I’m going to lose this game because Tony’s trying to prove a point. The next guy hits in a double play. We get out of the with no runs. I was the happiest guy in the world. But I believe there’s a situation where his base is loaded and you you you hit a guy on purpose to prove a game. I think it was when you were in Oakland. Is that Yeah. Conco. They hit conco and the big guy with with Cleveland. Uh pitching side. Wait a minute. Uh it was a grown first and third. Okay. Pitch and say threw a wild pitch. The guy they won the game. But uh you can’t lose the clubhouse, but you can lose a game. Now that may be wrong. People can argue that’s not true, right? I can remember that great comeback in 11. We had just gotten going. We went to Milwaukee and that year in Milwaukee, they kept throwing the ball up and in on Holiday and and Albert and and I knew because I I knew something about Renicki, but they had hit him a cold end. They’re always ducking and and now we start yelling, “Hey, man. It’s not Well, it’s not intentional to me.” Well, don’t pitch in there without command, right? you can’t do it, don’t do it. So, sure enough, we played this game and we are now we are starting a little streak which ended up being a good streak. And they drilled Albert in the eighth inning. Score is tied. We don’t score. First better up is Ryan Brun. So I’m thinking I can’t walk in that clubhouse. Mhm. So I forget who the pitcher is. We drill Brun in the ribs now. Putting the leadoff guy out. Here comes Prince Fielder. Blah blah. That run’s going to score. They get three out. They beat you. Somehow he didn’t score. Burkeman blooped a base hit in the 10th inning. We won the game. So that’s when you walk in. You think it’s like winning a double header because you made your point. Mhm. But you had said something earlier that was really smart and we had to explain it sometimes. Guys understand as baseball started to monitor it and outlaw it. Well, they tell you if they smelled it. Mhm. They ejected you right then and suspended you and they suspended manager for one day. You may get three or four days. So all of a sudden I never forget Simitachi. Um, we did not retaliate in against uh Milwaukee uh might have been 2001 or two because Simo had come up because the the warnings were in and I remember because a couple of players were really upset that we hadn’t done anything and I ended up going up there. I said, “Hey, don’t you understand what’s at stake here? We can’t. The guy that’s going to hit him is going to get suspended. There’s another time. Well, they were still grumbling. It’s true story. I’m not giving names. So, I find out when the bus gets to this ballpark, I to the hotel, these two guys still and Dunk’s on there. So, Dunk, you know, he’s ex-marine. Hey, you guys, did you hear what he said? You’re freaking clueless. He said he couldn’t do it. He’s the manager. He was right. And you guys wanted him to get hit. You want to suspend the guy? So they So they shut up. Wes Helms comes up. Simatachi’s pitch that next day. Third hitter in the first inning. Hits him in the kneecap. Carry him off. So my We laugh about it now. I I can remember Don Maddingley. They hit Maguire in the neck. Meguire Don Manning tells and everybody knew. Don Mel tells uh McKay, I know Tonyy’s going to hit me. Just tell him not to hit me in the head. McKay says you’re going to get hit. They don’t want me in the head. Yeah, that was always always a thing. Yeah. Put the bat down and go to first base. Yeah. Two two more things here. I I’ll get you out of here. appreciate the time you’re taking um to do this today, but uh I I talked about Bobby Cox. I mean, Bobby Cox, Dusty Baker, I mean, Jim Leland, I know there’s so many guys. I mean, how much did you enjoy? I know you guys got into it, but that’s part of it. You’re you’re fighting for your team, but you guys are also really close and and consider yourself friends, I assume, with all those guys and and again, a ton of respect. But, um I mean, we got to see you fiery in the dugout or fiery on the field, chest to chest, screaming at these guys. Uh, but I mean some of those bigger names and those managers, what what do those guys mean to you and do you still keep in touch with them? That’s a great question cuz more anything else that uh you want to earn the respect like you that your situation with the Braves that was atypical because one of the things I loved about about Bobby Bobby didn’t take cheap shots. It’s just if the ball if it’s becomes excessive, you got to say, “Hey man, quit.” Mhm. But I love managing against Bob because he he competed so hard and he was so good. His team competed good. Jim Leland was difficult because you know he coached for five years. Was he’s one of my best friends to this day. So if you have a really good friend at the end of the day, one of you is going to be upset. Well, I don’t want to be upset, but I don’t want to be upset. So, uh, Dusty is there’s so much talk about us. Dusty was on the 86 club when I got the Ace and he was part of us turning it around. He’s a great leader. Then he went into coaching and so he coached San Francisco. He sung and he and I were very close and we were always sharing stuff because I had a little experience by then. The only problems was when he came in our division with Chicago and then with Cincinnati and what happens is if you remember Chicago they had Brown all these guys. Mhm. As long as you, you know, he’s got to take care of his got to take care of mine. So, the only thing I got upset about when it became personal and that one time we were yelling back at each other, you know, he we made it personal. Mhm. Uh I didn’t like it personal. Hey, you do your thing, I’ll do my thing. And it’s down here, but don’t do it there. So I uh you I have I I love the friendship with Joe Tory and Dusty. I mean and I think I told Ali yesterday when there’s 30 guys that do this job and you could be a great bench coach, you could be a great like we had Jose Oendle on the smartest space. He should have gotten the job even though Mike Matheni was such a great leader. Such a great leader without any experience. He went to the postseason four years in a row. First time a manager ever did that. In fact, he’s going to come to this July 16 show. Uh, and he left with a winning record. I always said he had a winning percentage of 555. I’ll take his me. Yeah. So, my point is that um the great baseball guys, you wanted to earn their respect. And we always tried as a staff. That’s why we never started to crap, but we didn’t take any crap. Yep. So, one last story I want to share here with me. So, with you, uh I’ve never talked to you about it, but I when I first came up, um so I come into spring training. I had no AAA experience. I pitched two months in in double A. Um had been in the organization for a while, but had dealt with some injuries and whatnot. So, I come into spring training and there’s guy comes in out of shape and guy gets hurt and um I got down there and I had thrown a bullpen before spring training started with Dave Duncan. Um and I feel like that really kind of put me on the mat because I threw probably the best bullpen I’ve ever thrown and ended up getting a start there and I and I I noticed as spring was going I was getting challenged more and more, right? that I was getting and I felt like that was your way of saying we’re going to find out if you can do this or not because I can’t babysit you and people can talk about it all you want. You It’s hard to develop at the major league level. You’re obviously still learning and developing, but you have to be ready. And so I make the team out of spring training completely unexpected. And I remember the game that did it. I was in uh we were in New York for spring training playing the Mets in Port St. Lucy. and I I faced the meat of their order. I also noticed that every time I came in a pitch, Yachti would stay in and then he would leave after that and that was it. But I was, you know, I was facing major league guys. I had major league catch, you know, obviously major league catcher. Um, and those are things you notice as a young guy. And I pitched really well and the next day Rick Hmel wrote an article and said that it appears I had made the team and I hadn’t heard yet. So Dave Duncan comes and tells me that I I’ve made it, that I’m going with the team. Um, and then I saw you at lunch and you said, “Hey, did Dunk talk to you?” And I said, “Yeah.” And you said, “Well, I’m not going to congratulate you because we still got waiverss and we can make trades and so I don’t know if it’s set, you know, I’ll congratulate you on opening day.” So I was like, “Oh, that’s cool.” So now I got to sit here for the next three days or four days wondering if I’m on the team. So I get here and do make it to the team. And you pitched me on opening day. The phone rings. It’s the fifth inning. And I have, as a kid growing up in St. Louis, I’ve watched you break in guys forever and it’s always a 10 to nothing game, right? It’s always they come in, they get their feet wet and go. And so you threw me in a 000 game. Yachty hit a home run. So by the time when he hit the home run, I thought, “Okay, they’re going to go to somebody else.” And the phone never rang. And it was it was it was my inning. I come out for the sixth. Matt Holiday, I faced the the meat of the order against the Rockies in a one to nothing game. Holiday, Atkins, and Hot were the were the three I faced. Wow. And so to me throughout my entire career, I always say people say, “What you know what’s it like playing for Tony?” I say, “I owe a lot. I owe my career to him because he put me in a situation where I think he he wasn’t sure what he had and he wanted to find out if I could handle it.” And as a young player, I don’t want to pitch in the 10 to nothing game because I don’t bring value to you, right? So, I knew Kelvin Jimenez was on the DL and I had 14 days before he was eligible to come off. And I had to get myself to show that I was at least valuable, more valuable than one more person in that bullpen, which is hard when you’re it’s a there’s a there’s a tension there of these are my teammates and we want to do well, but we’re also competing against each other because for our livelihoods and we want to stay and we want to be the best in that bullpen. So, there’s a healthy balance there and you gave me the opportunity to show that I could have value by putting me in there. Now, I don’t know if that’s because you said, “Hey, I don’t know if this kid’s ready and we’re going to find out real quick. And if not, he’s going to triple AAA and we’re bringing somebody else up.” Which for me as a young player, I like that and I embrace that because I believe in myself, I’ll bet on myself and I need the opportunity to show you that. But if you never gave me that opportunity in those close games to show that I could handle it, I don’t think I would have had the career that I had. I think I would have been up and down and you know, how can I show you that I’m valuable if you never put me in there? So, Miguel Tahada, we’re two weeks in, we’re in Houston, and Miguel Tahada comes up and he hits a walk-off home run off me. And that was the first time I had kind of had a a a ding. And and I remember walking off the field, he’s running around like it’s game seven of the World Series. Like, he just it was like two weeks into the season. And I remember walking off the field thinking, I’m gonna get sent down. I failed for the first time and I’m gonna get sent down. And I show up the next day and nobody came to get me. And so I’m out there for BP and then the game’s going on. And the next game the phone rings in the bullpen and Marty says, “Max, see if you can get ready for Tahada. He’s on deck.” And I said, “I’m ready.” And he was like, “Well,” I said, “Tell him I’m ready.” And you brought me out to face him and I got him to pop up. And I remember screaming at him when he’s running to first base. And I remember thinking, “What am I doing? Why am I screaming at him?” You know, like what? I don’t know why. But it was just like, “You’re you’re you’re into it. You’re intense.” And I came in and you looked at me and I’ll never forget it. you were right there when I’m coming down the steps in Houston, you looked at me and I think you could see like this kid’s going to be okay. You know, he didn’t back down. He’s competitor and and so like am I don’t know if you remember that, but it was like that’s your thought of like when you get these young guys up, you know, how do you get that balance of getting them in and testing them? because if not at this level, if you can’t do it, we got to get somebody else that can, you know, and um I ended up pitching five years here and and never got sent down to the minor leagues. And I think it was because you tested me early, gave me the opportunity to prove my value early where if he wouldn’t have done that, I don’t think I would have had a chance would have had a chance. I mean, just remember, you can get opportunities with people. It’s a guy who takes advantage of the opportunity. So, yeah, I appreciate you saying me. Uh, but the reality is that we had a really good staff, coaching staff. This could be true about an infielder, an outfielder, and our catching a pitching, it would be Duncan and and uh and Marty. So your stuff caught our attention because you were more than a one pitch or two pitch pitcher and that means you know your first year is always a think hey maybe you some this guy may be a starter going down the road but if you have that kind of guy in your bullpen you can get a hitter out you get an inning out or you can get two or three inning. I mean you were very very in fact I remember having conversation to say hey you know your value unfortunately Mhm. is penalizing you sometimes because we win games if you can stay close and that’s true story. Well, my point is in spring training, you know, you keep an open mind and you say, I’ll give you an example, which is and he’s got stuff. Let’s see. And now it’s one:00 and maybe you come in there third or fourth and you’re facing the last part. Yeah, he still looks good. And then you start testing see and doesn’t change. And what was real obvious and this is really important. This is a compliment to you but it’s also mandatory. This game is about competing. You got to be a competitor. The hitters got to compete against the pitcher. Pitcher’s got to compete against the hitter, right? You’d be surprised. You know, hitters got talent. Pitchers got talent. And they don’t understand that you got to make it personal. And it was real clear to both of us, Duncan and I, you, Marty, three of us, that you were personal about, I got to get that guy out. And that sounds probably sounds to fans like, oh, no, no, no. There are a lot of guys say, I’m gonna here’s my fast ball. Here’s my breaking ball. I walked him with four. Or maybe they were didn’t want to get beat with their stuff. When a guy competes and you had a good heart for competing, that’s part of the Tahada thing. Mhm. Hey man, sometimes you got to tip your cap. The other guy’s trying to beat you, but you’d already proven that that you weren’t going to be afraid. Um, so you test test. Uh, the thing at the end was that I had been through the reality where sometimes you you say yes and something happens at the end and the GM because that’s his club Yeah. makes a trade, you know. I said, “Oh, are you going to triple A?” Well, wait a minute. He just said, “No, we just got Joe Blow, so I’m careful.” This was it. That’s what we did with Albert. Remember Albert was going Triple. You were go to Triple A. Albert and he starts going. So I never forget the one time fans like this. It can’t this guy can’t be this good. So I hit him fourth against Montreal. They had that guy uh oh the Puerto Rican guy that had great sinker cutter slider. I’m always remember him. So the first time up he throws my one two slider. flails and strikes out and I went in fact the coaches got all my K man you’re trying to get this guy sent down I said no I just just want to find out next time up the guy throw a sl double off the wall so my point is that and then you go to spring training and okay now it’s for real and you get the ball and if if it looked like this guy’s different than he was in spring training then you’re going to go to triple and get experience right But the most important part, toughness and competitiveness. Guys that have less talent than somebody more talent, if they’re if you got more toughness and you compete what you got versus the other guy, you win with guys like that time. Yeah. And I mean and you had you were talented and competitive. Yeah. Now, let me ask you a question. 2011 you were in the rotation early, right? Didn’t you start out with a big record like four or five and no or something? Six and0. No big deal. Okay. Just want to throw that in there. Yeah. Then I lost the next six after that. Bad coach and bad man. Yeah. The uh Well, I you know I say all the time I I think I won 12 games that year. I think I won six in the rotation and six in the bullpen cuz that’s the year where all of a sudden our bullpen started picking up more innings than our starters did. And I was in there for longer amounts. So I pick up six wins there. And you look back at that year I said I’m glad I didn’t win 11 because we don’t get in. You know, if we win 11 instead of 12, we don’t get in. And and uh the guys we set a record for bullpin moves in bull. Yeah. In 11. Yeah. Our starters are except for carp. Everybody’s hanging right. Um, one one last thing here because I I I have used this several times and and I want you to tell it because I think it’s a extremely valuable piece. I coach my kids. I coach my daughter and I coach my son. And so we’re getting to the age they’re 14 and 11. We’re getting the age where like we’re playing the game, you know? We’re not just up there just swinging and like we’re moving runners. We’re trying to execute it and and um and they go through slumps, right? So how quick can we get out of that slump, you know, and how quick can we get you back on? But there was something you always said and and I don’t remember the exact numbers so I hope you do but you would talk about giving away at bats and I and you would talk about it to the team and you would say if you give away I can’t remember if you said one or two at bats per week and you had the math and you added it up of the difference that made for these guys that are taking 600 at bats but it applies to everybody and it also gives credit to how locked in these guys are and how good they are is they don’t they don’t give away at bats you know because if you do do you remember that number can you talk about that of like Yeah, it’s it’s if the whole key is and it goes back to toughness. Toughness could be you get challenged in a tough way. Walk come in and face the that’s that’s tough. Uh you struggle a little bit, that’s tough. But um when you hit, if you can mentally separate every atbat and take for your best shot, there’s so many distractions as a hitter. You know, you start make you’re for two or three and then you start think your hands or you get you get two hits first two times up, you throw the next two at bats away. But the great hitters will tell you that you’re this is a big leagues that will stuff about three out of 10. You’re 300 hit. I mean, you make seven outs, there’s guys out there going to get you out. But if you can concentrate every atbat, you add a base hit a week or two count, you do the math. I mean, you’re going to elevate yourself, you know, 20 points. So, where it all comes back to is that you want to be successful, you got to have a consistent competitive approach. Like, you couldn’t have two, three good appearances and then come to the ballpark laying back. I know I may be in there, but I’ve done good for this week. No, no, no. It’s brand new. If you have that attitude, then we don’t want you on the club. Yeah. So, uh, I go back to what goes on between your ears, your heart, and your guts. You put that together with the other 24 guys. You put that together with a coaching staff that believes in you. You have a strength. And that’s what we have. And we had a toughness and a strength that come hell or high water, we never gave in, never gave up. Yeah. I I just think that’s crazy when you think about 600 at bats in these guys and how good they are like a and then you go to a Yachty who’s doing it behind the plate and he’s not giving a bats away or you go to an Albert who’s trying to take those 600 bats knowing he’s the face of the of of baseball and at a superstar and handling all those things and they didn’t they never gave away at bats and and you hammered that in them you know from from the get-go. I’ve heard you say it a lot of times and I think it’s a great lesson for a lot of people is, you know, whether you’re in you sports and you only get a 100 bats a year or you’re here and you get 600, you give a couple of those away and that’s a big, you know, like you said, you mix in a couple hits instead of giving them away, that’s a big deal. Well, here’s a message. Selfishly, personally, every extra bet, every hit that you if you if you don’t throw at bats away, extra yard, but what you sell as a manager or coach, the game you’re playing, we need you to take every atbat to do something to help us win. Just like you, it’s not what your EA is, erra is over time, that day that you’re the day you’re playing, what’s my assignment? If you drill into the guys, just play the game, the numbers will take care of themselves. Because if you play for numbers, you’re get so frustrated and you go so distracted that you’ll do much less. If you just concentrate, play the score, but what am what am I supposed to do to help the club? Mhm. Good stuff happens. Numbers will be there at the end. Yeah. Well, we’re going to let you get out of here. Thank you so much for the time. Appreciate it. We had a good time together. Always enjoy sitting around talking ball with you. Learned a lot from me. I owe a lot to you. So just because you you and your family enjoy and the one thing I want you to mention you were always special because your family like dunks and believe me that tells you that’s that’s the way I got on the team. Yeah. Yeah. You know I had Dunks golden neighbors golden retriever for six years. Remember? Yeah. Dave Duncan had a his neighbor had a litter of puppies. Yeah. It was September of my first year in ’08 and they his wife brought Cammy up to us. We had her, we lost her seven years. She had at seven years she had cancer and we lost her and we have a new one now, Lexi. She’s a rescue. She’s amazing. She’s nine now. Um, but every time I see you, I say, “Still got your dog. How many dogs you got?” Yeah. Yeah. I’m allergic to cats, so I can go without those. That’s okay then. So, I’m going to tell you that so that you know, you know, your wife and your kids, July 16th at the Stifo Theater, we’re doing this thing called Celebrate Cardinal Championships. We’re going to have to tribute to Daryl on one side and wall. Got a dozen of your teammates going to talk. We’re doing some with the military. You got a comedian, clean comedian. So, you know, plan on it. Just last time, tickets you need. I will be there. Tony, always great to catch up. Thank you for uh still coming back, being a part of uh of the Cardinals Nation, and um just enjoy sitting around talking baseball with you. So, that wraps up this episode of the Chatters Box. You can uh subscribe and listen to any of our other podcasts that we’ve done throughout the years. And we will see you guys next month.

Hall of fame Tony La Russa sits down with his former pitcher, Kyle McClellan. The pair discuss the game at-large and what it takes to be an elite manager.