This doesn’t seem right. There’s no way you could have JHL lower than Ramos…
He gets pretty bad ratings for his range, I think he’s been told to take it a little easy out there and not dive or sprint after flyballs too hard. His shoulder is still essentially recovering
He takes absolutely terrible routes to fly balls and has a below average arm. This isn’t surprising in the slightest.
This is a response to u/Buzzed27 since Reddit is being dumb and not letting me reply to anything more on this post – So he must really be a terrible at getting to fly balls if he’s second in CF assists, but among the worst in saved runs. You didn’t realize your stat is even more damning at how awful he is at chasing balls down.
Yeah idk, off the eye test I definitely don’t think JHL is the best defensive centerfielder ever, but he seems like he has decent range and takes good routes. His arm seems pretty weak though. Still, you could really tell the difference when Matos was out there (Gilbert did well the one time he played CF)
Not going to pretend I understand defensive stats but I heard DRS is pretty flawed. Wondering if him playing at Oracle where there is a lot of ground to cover hurts him
I’ve heard this mentioned a few times during radio broadcasts, JHL needs to be more communicative because there are some times where him and Ramos miscommunicate and then neither of them catch the ball. I think that’s what’s bringing that number down. He’s supposed to be the QB there in the outfield accoring to Kuip and I think he’s having a hard time with that.
Gilbert is the only Giants OF with an arm worth a damn.
I’m guessing his arm brings down his rating out in the outfield. He’s really been struggling lately, I’m no expert but I hope he’ll put on some weight this offseason and come back a bit stronger in 2026. Even with JHL’s flaws in the outfield, he’s much better than Jerar, Matos or Ramos out there
Where are people getting this narrative that JHL has a bad arm? He’s 91st percentile in arm strength and 88th percentile in arm value
I don’t see JHL being this bad, but I do like Gilbert in CF.
In an ideal world (defensively), Lee moves to LF and Ramos to DH. Now that Devers is playing 1B with aplomb, this could in theory actually happen…
Ok this make no sense when the Royals are the best team is stolen bases allowed. Salvy is not that horrible. Can’t blame him for passed balls. Curious how they evaluate catchers
I’ve quite literally never seen JHL get a hit or save a run, so yes. I mean, I like the guy, but every time I turn on the TV I see him 0 for 3 with a walk, 0 for 2, 0 for 4.
He’s at -1 FRV vs -16 DRS. Sometimes defensive metrics are just like that.
Yeah I feel like throughout the year I have seen so many balls that he should have caught.
I’ve watched every single game this year and I feel like this can’t be accurate. It always feels like Ramos makes the most mistakes. Lee has had some but with Ramos it feels like there’s an egregious error every week.
I think they confused JHL with Ramos
Been telling people this all year, he has zero range and thats why my expectations for his bat have been so high
It’s odd, but I’ve never felt like JHL is a liability out there. I guess the eye test is flawed, but I’ve always thought he has a great first step and the routes are good. Maybe we are just that scarred from watching Ramos and Matos in center.
JHL is not the same outfielder he was before the injury. I think he’s lost a little bit of his aggressiveness and going after balls. I see him pull up and take balls on a hop that he might’ve otherwise gone after in the past. He’s still an exceptional outfielder, but I would consider moving him and putting Gilbert in center Next season.
I’ll say first off that I think DRS is a pretty dated metric at this point. They’re slow to incorporate new data and technology into their methods. ie they still don’t include pitch framing in DRS. Lee by comparison is at -1 run fielding wise by Baseball Savant’s Statcast based metrics, with his range being worth -4 Outs Above Average and his Arm being worth +2.
Lee has been average with the bat, a little below average in the field (for a CF) and well above average on the bases.
I don’t for a second think that Lee has been even close to -16 runs in CF this year and DRS (which has *always* been prone to huge outliers) doesn’t change my opinion on that.
JHL doesn’t seem the same in CF as last year.
Also side note. Wasn’t Profar banned like 50 games and he still has a worse DRS than Ramos? Lol
Dang we should get Steven Kwan up in here!!
Add in Ramos and it’s even worse.
We need an outfielder like Steven Kwan. He’s a +60 in defensive runs saved overall the last 4 seasons.
If Lee’s is that bad I’d hate to see Ramos’
Statcast has him at 42nd percentile fielding value but I’m not sure if that accounts for positional value. Either way, fielding stats can be super volatile and different stats can disagree greatly. I don’t think he’s the worst defensive CF in the league.
So would a team made entirely out of the left side just totally dominate the league
His routes to the ball are….curious. Combine his shortcomings in the field with Ramos’ and it makes for some frustrating defense.
Would be +21 if he had hung onto that ball last night. Heck, would be +26 if he didn’t drop those other balls, those other five times.
As the old saying goes, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics”.
As another saying goes “Jogging is deadly. 100% of joggers die.”
These wacky aggregate stats can be helpful, but they can’t totally eliminate the eye test. JHL is a FAR better fielder than Heliot Ramos, and I’m sure Heliot Ramos himself would agree. It is interesting to notice where a player’s strengths and weaknesses are, but using these wacky combo stats like bWAR (which is calculated differently based on competing protocols) can leave ridiculously inaccurate results like this.
Good news is, route on fly balls is absolutely teachable, unlike foot speed or agility… or numbskullitis, like Ramos has. JHL will get better and better.
No way I buy Profar being worse than Ramos.
We gotta get Kwan…STAT!
For this season he hasn’t earned his money in the field or at the plate . But still a fan favorite so it’s a weird spot to be in
I guess the numbers don’t lie but that doesn’t compute for me…
Jhl is so overrated but so is 90% of this awful team
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This doesn’t seem right. There’s no way you could have JHL lower than Ramos…
He gets pretty bad ratings for his range, I think he’s been told to take it a little easy out there and not dive or sprint after flyballs too hard. His shoulder is still essentially recovering
He takes absolutely terrible routes to fly balls and has a below average arm. This isn’t surprising in the slightest.
This is a response to u/Buzzed27 since Reddit is being dumb and not letting me reply to anything more on this post – So he must really be a terrible at getting to fly balls if he’s second in CF assists, but among the worst in saved runs. You didn’t realize your stat is even more damning at how awful he is at chasing balls down.
Yeah idk, off the eye test I definitely don’t think JHL is the best defensive centerfielder ever, but he seems like he has decent range and takes good routes. His arm seems pretty weak though. Still, you could really tell the difference when Matos was out there (Gilbert did well the one time he played CF)
Not going to pretend I understand defensive stats but I heard DRS is pretty flawed. Wondering if him playing at Oracle where there is a lot of ground to cover hurts him
I’ve heard this mentioned a few times during radio broadcasts, JHL needs to be more communicative because there are some times where him and Ramos miscommunicate and then neither of them catch the ball. I think that’s what’s bringing that number down. He’s supposed to be the QB there in the outfield accoring to Kuip and I think he’s having a hard time with that.
Gilbert is the only Giants OF with an arm worth a damn.
I’m guessing his arm brings down his rating out in the outfield. He’s really been struggling lately, I’m no expert but I hope he’ll put on some weight this offseason and come back a bit stronger in 2026. Even with JHL’s flaws in the outfield, he’s much better than Jerar, Matos or Ramos out there
Where are people getting this narrative that JHL has a bad arm? He’s 91st percentile in arm strength and 88th percentile in arm value
I don’t see JHL being this bad, but I do like Gilbert in CF.
In an ideal world (defensively), Lee moves to LF and Ramos to DH. Now that Devers is playing 1B with aplomb, this could in theory actually happen…
Ok this make no sense when the Royals are the best team is stolen bases allowed. Salvy is not that horrible. Can’t blame him for passed balls. Curious how they evaluate catchers
I’ve quite literally never seen JHL get a hit or save a run, so yes. I mean, I like the guy, but every time I turn on the TV I see him 0 for 3 with a walk, 0 for 2, 0 for 4.
He’s at -1 FRV vs -16 DRS. Sometimes defensive metrics are just like that.
Yeah I feel like throughout the year I have seen so many balls that he should have caught.
I’ve watched every single game this year and I feel like this can’t be accurate. It always feels like Ramos makes the most mistakes. Lee has had some but with Ramos it feels like there’s an egregious error every week.
I think they confused JHL with Ramos
Been telling people this all year, he has zero range and thats why my expectations for his bat have been so high
It’s odd, but I’ve never felt like JHL is a liability out there. I guess the eye test is flawed, but I’ve always thought he has a great first step and the routes are good. Maybe we are just that scarred from watching Ramos and Matos in center.
JHL is not the same outfielder he was before the injury. I think he’s lost a little bit of his aggressiveness and going after balls. I see him pull up and take balls on a hop that he might’ve otherwise gone after in the past. He’s still an exceptional outfielder, but I would consider moving him and putting Gilbert in center Next season.
I’ll say first off that I think DRS is a pretty dated metric at this point. They’re slow to incorporate new data and technology into their methods. ie they still don’t include pitch framing in DRS. Lee by comparison is at -1 run fielding wise by Baseball Savant’s Statcast based metrics, with his range being worth -4 Outs Above Average and his Arm being worth +2.
Lee has been average with the bat, a little below average in the field (for a CF) and well above average on the bases.
I don’t for a second think that Lee has been even close to -16 runs in CF this year and DRS (which has *always* been prone to huge outliers) doesn’t change my opinion on that.
JHL doesn’t seem the same in CF as last year.
Also side note. Wasn’t Profar banned like 50 games and he still has a worse DRS than Ramos? Lol
Dang we should get Steven Kwan up in here!!
Add in Ramos and it’s even worse.
We need an outfielder like Steven Kwan. He’s a +60 in defensive runs saved overall the last 4 seasons.
If Lee’s is that bad I’d hate to see Ramos’
Statcast has him at 42nd percentile fielding value but I’m not sure if that accounts for positional value. Either way, fielding stats can be super volatile and different stats can disagree greatly. I don’t think he’s the worst defensive CF in the league.
So would a team made entirely out of the left side just totally dominate the league
His routes to the ball are….curious. Combine his shortcomings in the field with Ramos’ and it makes for some frustrating defense.
Would be +21 if he had hung onto that ball last night. Heck, would be +26 if he didn’t drop those other balls, those other five times.
As the old saying goes, “There are lies, damn lies, and statistics”.
As another saying goes “Jogging is deadly. 100% of joggers die.”
These wacky aggregate stats can be helpful, but they can’t totally eliminate the eye test. JHL is a FAR better fielder than Heliot Ramos, and I’m sure Heliot Ramos himself would agree. It is interesting to notice where a player’s strengths and weaknesses are, but using these wacky combo stats like bWAR (which is calculated differently based on competing protocols) can leave ridiculously inaccurate results like this.
Good news is, route on fly balls is absolutely teachable, unlike foot speed or agility… or numbskullitis, like Ramos has. JHL will get better and better.
No way I buy Profar being worse than Ramos.
We gotta get Kwan…STAT!
For this season he hasn’t earned his money in the field or at the plate . But still a fan favorite so it’s a weird spot to be in
I guess the numbers don’t lie but that doesn’t compute for me…
Jhl is so overrated but so is 90% of this awful team
Bichette and Profar? What?