Caleb Williams Check-In with Kevin Clark

Caleb Williams Check-In with Kevin Clark

Coming up on Hogue and John’s, it’s a bi-week check-in episode. We’re going to talk Caleb Williams, of course, what we like from his first four weeks of the season. And our friend Kevin Clark from Omaha and ESPN joins us for a great conversation. Hogan John starts right now. [Music] What’s up? Welcome in. Hogan John’s with you as we head into the bye-week back from Vegas surviving. What’s up, Johnzy? The by-week is perfect like post Vegas. Yeah, if you think about it, like if you need I didn’t really think about it that way until I was like flying home yesterday trying to watch the film. Here’s if you’re watching on YouTube, this was literally me watching the film on the way home. The entire flight. Watch for five minutes. Doze off for five minutes. I don’t sleep well on planes. My head falls forward just like that. And I wake back up, rewind, five minutes, catch back up, fall asleep again. I did that for three and a half hours. I It was It was And then we had a nice 40minute ride uh from the uh you know the runway at O’Hare to the gate at O’Hare. That’s always fun. We had that too. We landed early, but if you land early, sometimes your gate is not ready. So you just end up sitting there. At least in this case, I got to watch the Cubs game. Didn’t see the finish, but saw a lot of it. But I’m like, you don’t sleep well on planes. But there was a point where I was done eating my lunch. I was watching a movie and I’m like, I’m just going to rest my eyes for a little bit. I thought I dozed off for like five minutes, but I think uh it might have been like 40 to 45 minutes that I was out, which is something because I don’t sleep like that on planes, but there was like a time gap that I had to make up make up for. Yeah. No, by the I’m I’m all for this. I think uh it’s kind of like when you go to London, like the team supposed to have a mandated by week. Like I just I think it should be the same thing for Vegas. If you play the Raiders in Las Vegas, you automatically get a bye-week right after. Fans need it, too. I I stayed until Tuesday and there were still fans there. Like when I was leaving this morning at the tables in full Bears gear, probably their fourth or fifth Bear shirt, you know, that they traveled with there. They were still having a good time. Yeah. Stephen and Greg are still there. I don’t think they’re ever coming back. They’re just gonna play golf forever. Yeah. Just hang on. Just make sure Bragg’s aiming for the right greens. Yeah. Well, right. Right. It’s great approach shots to the wrong. Claims he shot an 85 today. Again, don’t know what holes he was playing, but you know, 85 on some holes. I Whatever. All right. Well, we’re here with you. We are This will be our last episode of the week as we heading into the bye-week. just a two episode week. We will be right back though early next week and have three for you as we jump into Washington Commanders week uh which will be a big one for a number of different reasons. But before we get there, we do want to, you know, just kind of reset things going into the buy. And the biggest of all those topics is the quarterback. Should also mention Kevin Clark from Omaha and ESPN will be joining us. Does a great job. Always love talking to Kevin. Good friend, knows football. uh and he will be joining us here in a little bit too. Good guest to check up on as a little bit of an national perspective as we head into the buy. But right now, Johny, we’re calling this our Caleb Williams bi-week check-in and it is brought to you by RC Cola. RC Cola is not a soft drink, just damn good cola. I missed not having RC Cola in the press box. Yeah, the Raiders got to figure that out. They do what they’re doing up there. Maybe if they had RC Colola, their field goal block team wouldn’t be so uh soft. And I call it field goals. Their field goal protection team, whatever you want to have been better. Yeah. All right. So, this is what we’re going to do. I’m going to read you some some stats on Kale Williams and let’s have that lead our discussion. Okay. So, a lot of these numbers initially are from Pro Football reference. I think we can all agree it’s a very reliable statistical website. Uh just lots of numbers on this thing. So, um well, let’s just begin. Let’s let’s start with traditional passer rating, which I think we can all agree has become more of an incomplete stat, but I still think it’s relevant because it’s kind of endured, right? It’s it hasn’t been completely dismissed, but it’s there’s new stats added to it. So this is traditional passer rating. After four weeks, Caleb Williams ranks 14th in the NFL amongst qualified quarterbacks with a passer rating of 97.8. The league average right now after four weeks is 92.0. The league leader right now is Lamar Jackson from the Baltimore Ravens with a whopping 130.5. That’s wild. more. That’s really That’s a really high number. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay. So, he’s Say that again where he ranks again. He ranks 14th. Okay. 97.8. The league. He’s above league average. He’s above league average. League average is 90.2 or sorry, 92.0. Sack percentage. The league average right now amongst qualified quarterback quarterbacks is 6.52. Caleb Williams ranks 11th with a sack percentage of 5.11. He’s been sacked seven times in four games. So another instance where he’s above the league average. the average.52 and trending well below that 68 sack number from last season. Yes. Yes. The uh last amongst qualified quarterbacks, get this, Lamar Jackson with a sack percentage of 13.64. He’s been sacked 15 times in four games. Yeah, they got some things to fix there. Yes. Yes. adjusted net yards per attempt. So, this is if you’re in analytics, this is like a longstanding measurement for good passers. Like, if you go back in history, like Drew Brees, good at adjusting net yards per attempt. Payton Manning good with this stat. Like, some of the best quarterbacks have high marks with this stat. It’s, you know, a NYA as you see it on Pro Football Reference. has adjusted net yards per per pass attempt. Caleb Williams after four weeks ranks 11th at 6.91. The league average is 5.99. So another good indication that things are working between him and Ben Johnson. Again, he’s at 6.91. The league average is 5.99. If we’re looking for areas of concern, completion percentage, he ranks 25th amongst qualified quarterbacks at 62.3. The league average is 65.3. So, I say that again. He’s at 62.3 for completion percentage, ranking 25th, just ahead of Patrick Mahomes, I should say. But the league average is 65.3. The league leader in completion percentage right now. Can you guess? I don’t think he’ll get it. The league leader in completion percentage after four weeks right now. Is it Daniel Jones? No. Good guess though. Okay. Daniel Jones is fourth. Um, can I cheat and tell you that it’s Drake May? Because I because I just did. He just looked. Okay. So, there are seven quarterbacks, seven who have a completion percentage of 70% or higher right now in the NFL. Drake May, Jared Goff, Dak Prescott, Daniel Jones, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, and Sam Darnold. Yeah, Drake May like it’s basically it’s 74%. That’s something now. Okay, what’s his average depth of target to get that nonsense? What are we doing here? And this is where you got to really dive into some of this stuff. Drake May’s average depth of target ranks 30th. So there you go. Get out of here with that 74. What’s uh Daniel Jones is at? Uh AOT for Daniel Jones. He’s actually ninth. 8.51 yards and Caleb is 13th at 8.32 QBR. But hang on real quick. So 8.32 Drake Mazize at 6.89. So I mean I’m just there’s other things that explain, you know, why what they’re doing. You know, basically how hard are these throws? So QBR, which is well ESPN’s version of pass rating with a lot more that goes into it. Gale Williams ranks 18th according to Pro Football Reference at 57.5. The league leader is Lamar Jackson at an 83.6. So, can we We could keep going numbers and numbers and numbers and numbers and numbers. We got more coming, but let’s get through these. Right. Hit that again. I It didn’t didn’t work. Didn’t play. Oh, you know why? Here, hang on. I knew this was going to happen eventually. You know what? We got a uh we got a charging cord and we got a uh an audio cord. They look the exact same and they’re the same color. So, let’s let’s try this again, Bob, if we can. No. Point is, uh those are some numbers. There it is. We got Bob. We got Bob. We found Bob again. He keeps going missing this season. I don’t know what his problem is, but he’s hanging out with Braggs and Stephen in Vegas still, I guess. That trio would have fun. All right. Do you have more numbers? Because I’m ready to summarize the numbers. All right. Go ahead. Are there some EPA stuff we could get to? Do you want them now or do you want them after? Okay. Give us the EPA per play. Okay. This is from Sumer Sports. So, his EPA per play amongst qualified quarterbacks, you and I adjusted this before uh we started the show. So, minimum plays is 50. Yeah. So, your league leader in EPA per play is Jordan Love, followed by Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Daniel Jones, then fifth, Jared Goff. Drake May is actually sixth. Yeah. Caleb Williams ranks 20th after four weeks in EPA per play. Past EPA, Caleb Williams ranks 14th. Right. And it’s important because it’s his rush EPA that’s dragging his total EPA down. He’s 31st in rush EPA. He’s not really trying to be a high quality rush guy. He can move obviously and they ran some design runs and one just was a complete disaster against the Raiders. So, I’m not too I I I guess my point is I care more about what that passing EPA is and he’s he’s 14th. He’s 14th at this point. So, look, I I what I was going to do is just like we we kind of did this last week on CHO where we gave all these numbers and blah blah blah blah blah and we were like, hey, through three games, including one that was kind of a stinker in week one, Caleb Williams is a top 10 quarterback statistically after Sunday’s game against the Raiders, which didn’t go well offensively for a number of different reasons, but they still managed to get in the end zone when it mattered, including an absolutely insane touchdown pass to Roma Dunay thrown with incredible anticipation before he was even coming out of his break um in a tight window. Caleb Williams falls back a little bit. So he’s you know he’s league average right now. Let me tell you something. That’s a step in the right direction for the Chicago Bears and there’s still a long way to go in all this. So, I think it all leads to the big question I wanted to get to before we bring in Kevin Clark, and that is, and I could I could see how a lot of different people, including listeners, viewers, maybe there the the answer to this question is going to vary a little bit, but how much better do you feel about Caleb Williams right now, Johny, through four weeks going in the by-week? And not just Caleb, but Ben and this whole thing working offensively. Do you feel better about that now than you did as we were going into the Vikings game in week one? Yes. It starts with Rose like his touchdown throw to Roma Dunay where if you watch that closely, he’s letting go of that football before Rome hits the top of his break against the quarterback, gets behind the safety. Like that ball is in the air when Roma Dunes is making his cut left before breaking inside on his post route. I love that. That’s an anticipatory throw. That’s quarterback play at the highest level. That’s what you need from your young starting quarterback. Like I love that throw. I love how he plays in two-minute situations. It’s like almost an overdone storyline to to hear about, you know, his slow heartbeat and stuff because we’ve heard this before. It was a story line last year because he excelled in the same situation. This is Kale Williams. He It’s just part of his his makeup. It’s part of his success. He’s good in those moments. I like that. That continued to be a storyline after four weeks. That’s extremely encouraging. But at the same time, I think these stats illustrate that there’s more progress needed, more development needed. There’s areas, specific areas like completion percentage that I know Ben Johnson would like for him to improve. And I know what you’re saying about Drake Mace, easy completions. I think there’s been play calls for Kale Williams where there’s been easy completions built into the game plan, but he’s not making them. I’m thinking of some of these wide receiver screens where he’s just inaccurate on. So, those types of plays that Ben Johnson would probably like to have as a part of as an extension of his run game because his run game isn’t working like that needs to work for Caleb Williams more. So, I think the first four games have given him and Ben Johnson a great foundation to build upon going forward. Yeah, I feel a lot better about this whole thing cuz training camp was shaky at best. The pre- snap penalties were a huge concern going into the first game and it was sc let’s just call it how it is. It was scary to see a lot of that stuff continue in week one against the Vikings. And then it got a lot better. And it got a lot better in a horrible 50 game. You gave up 52 points to the Lions and and it was kind of hard to see through the bad defensively and all a sudden you go back and you watch that tape on the offense and you’re like this actually pretty good. It’s actually a step in the right direction. I think we can agonize over numbers all we want and eventually once especially once we have a a bigger sample size. You know, him ranking top 10 middle of the pack or in the 20s will matter. Like, you know, let’s check back in halfway through the season on that. If he’s in the 20s overall, that’ll be put us kind of back in a similar place where we’ve been before where we’re like kind of squint to see that, oh, Justin Fields might be the guy. Oh, but his EPA is like, you take out his rushing EPA, he’s like 31st in the league in passing. Like, but I don’t think that’s where we’re going to be with Caleb. And I think you can also look at it like this. What’s the toughest defense he’s faced so far, Trey? And see, I was going to say the Vikings. I I I think I think the Vikings caused a lot of problems in that game. It was the toughest defense. But and then but the best player he has faced overall with all due respect to Aiden Hutchinson was Max Crosby on Sunday. And and by the way, good opportunity to tease our insider analysis column that came out this morning because we we talked we basically it’s all about the offensive line and whether that’s the running game or what I broke down which is all the different ways they try to contain Max Crosby with various levels of success and disaster mixed in there. My point is, look, at some point you’re going to have to be able to put it all together against the best of the best in the NFL. But if we’re talking four games with Ben Johnson, I will take the fact that against Detroit and Dallas, he looked calm, poised, on time, in rhythm. I think that word rhythm matters a lot. His base He his feet to me have taken a major step. The film like put set aside the numbers for two seconds. Like the film looks a lot better. And then yes, did Crazy Man Max Crosby show up and get him off his spot and all of a sudden things looked I think we would say not in rhythm for a lot of that game on Sunday. Sure. because he was constantly having to worry about this menace to to one side of the field and G and there are going to be games like that where there’s a player that good that’s going to do that. But how many times did he get sacked again? Uh once once there’s there’s a lot of to me there’s there’s just going to be games like that in the NFL. Ben Johnson has said as much and guess what? He still delivered when they when they needed him to and they won the game most importantly. So just in terms of like the best pass rushing teams that he’s played this far, like the Detroit Lions lead the league right now after four weeks in sack percentage at 10.6. The Minnesota Vikings are fifth at 9.5. The Lions are second in the league with 14 sacks this season. The Vikings are 11th. Yeah. Or or they have 11. They’re tied for They’re up there. And the Raiders defense isn’t outstanding. But Max Crosby, I was actually thinking about this today, John. You know, as I was putting Well, as I was looking back at the film, I was thinking about this. All the different ways the Bears try to contain him. I think that’s up there with the Khalil Mack game that I saw in person in in Green Bay in 2018 just in terms of how good a player was kind of single-handedly throughout a game from start to finish. It was very very impressive. And the crazy thing about those games though, despite those performances, neither player won. That is that is scary. Um, Michael Parsons. It’s a quarterback league. Michael Parsons didn’t win on Sunday either. Who’s another one? The best pass rushers. It’s quarterback league, but it is crazy when you do what the Bears did on Sunday and get away with it, especially on the rushing side of it with the amount of rushing yards they gave up versus what they ran for. Well, the Bears defense just happens to be the worst rushing defense in the entire league after four weeks surrendering by not by far the most because the Buffalo Bills um apparently they have a bad rush defense too, but uh they also have Josh Allen. The Bears rush defense is allowing 164.5 yards per game. Um they’ve allowed 658 yards in four weeks. That is not good. Um, back to Kale Williams for a moment. The most encouraging stat for me is his sack percentage. Yeah, I agree. Especially after last season, especially with it being noted that one of the concerns about his play is that he holds the ball too long, doesn’t get it out, get it out on time. So to see him above league average, I think that’s an an important step in the right direction for him in terms of playing within the structure that Ben Johnson wants him to play. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s it’s it’s a testament to the very elusive. Yeah. The the upgrades they’ve made on the offense offensive line and him just doing a better job of running the offense and avoiding the sacks, too. I think it’s all that. All right. Well, that was pretty good. Those are a lot of numbers. Yeah, it was it was a lot of numbers. Point is, uh, those are some numbers. I don’t know if Kevin Clark’s going to have as many numbers, but uh, he is going to join us after we take a quick break. Don’t go anywhere. It’s always fun talking to Kevin Clark from Omaha and ESPN and the This is Football podcast. Uh it’s uh he’s always entertaining and his good perspective on things football and I’m sure I’ll have some good thoughts here on Caleb Williams. So that’s coming up next. Don’t go anywhere. But first, all right, Adam, let’s be real for a second. The world’s gone soft. Everyone gets a trophy. Everyone gets ribbons. I hate the ribbons. Not a fan of the ribbons. They’re They’re awful. Yeah, we should ban ribbons. Just ban ribbons alltogether. Like kids lose them immediately. Anyway, no ribbons and no cheap metals either. Soda. Adam used to have some kick. Now it’s all about pretty colors and easy fizz. RC Cola is not a soft drink, just damn good cola. RG is an OG cola in the world of spineless soft drinks. No trends, no gimmicks, no glow-ups. RC hasn’t changed its stripes since 1905 because it didn’t need to. It’s the same bold, crisp flavor it’s always been. So, do yourself a favor. Grab yourself some RC at your local store. Stock up for all your end of summer parties, back to school celebrations, or just watching the game. Cubs games. Do that. Yeah, RC is the move for whatever you’re doing. Yes, it is. And um you know, despite the warm temperatures, I got to tell you, technically fall is here. Uh, and even with the warm temperatures, I’ve had the fire pit on at night, little crisp air, football, it always feels pretty good. Uh, but if you’re like most guys, you’re still putting in hard work and that means you’re sweating and you don’t want body odor to sideline you. That’s why we’re bringing Mando to Hogan John’s for the first time. You know that feeling. It’s game day. You’ve been working hard all week. Your lucky jersey might not be smelling lucky. Uh, check out Mando because it actually stops odor before it even starts. No more masking, just freshness. The clinical strength sweat control. One swipe and you’re ready to go. It’s deodorant re-engineered to stop odor before it starts. Go to shopmando.com. Sop-do.com. Please support our show. Tell them we said you can get 20% off sitewide right now with code cho. Mando’s got you covered with deodorant plus sweat control. Say goodbye to sweat stains and hello to longlasting freshness. Time now to bring in our friend Kevin Clark. Does such a great job covering the NFL, the This is Football Podcast. He’s had such great guests as Payton Manning, Josh Allen, Rich Eisen, Adam Hogue, you know, it’s uh it’s it’s been a it’s the big three. The big three. Snuck that right in there. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know I’m up towards the top. We don’t even need to talk about it. No, it’s a great show. I love listening to it, Kevin. Appreciate you jumping on with us here on Hogan Johns. I’m I’m fired up. You guys have you guys in Chicago have have a little bit of momentum for the first time in a long time and so I’m I’m excited to talk a little Bears. So what is Mr. This is football think of Bears football right now in 2025. So I thought I thought the Bears were going to be so much better. And sorry I’m sorry. I don’t I’m not I’m not like oh what the hell is going on in September? No, no, no. Coming into this season, I thought that this was a team that was going to compete for the playoffs. And the reason I thought that was I saw a number over the summer that astounded me, stopped me in my tracks, which is that Caleb Williams had the most unblocked pressures in the history of NextGen stats last year. And he was also the most pressured quarterback and the most sacked quarterback and and all sorts of things uh since NextGen stats started, which was a decade ago. And part of that was that Caleb Williams held on to the ball too long. But part of that was because the protection schemes up front through personnel and and just just design were amateur-ish. And all of a sudden you get Ben Johnson who knows what it looks like up front and then you get Joe Tuni uh and then you get Drew Dolman. And then all of a sudden you’re going to go, okay, well Caleb’s going to have a professional NFL platform from which to throw. And there have been a couple lows in the first month of the season, but the trajectory I think they’re still on it. Like I saw a number uh the other day that that Caleb Williams had his best performance against the Blitz against the Raiders. So like there’s something to build on here and I I still want to see Caleb throw on time a little bit more. Um but I I I think there’s just something there where confidence is like 80% of this deal. You know, like they say that, you know, 90% of life is showing up. like having a roster and a coaching staff that knows what you’re supposed to do, which it didn’t feel like the last staff did, is is a big chunk of it. And so I think that the Bears have shown me through through a month that they’re that they’re on track. I don’t think it’s a you know, there’s a couple teams where I thought they’d be so much better this year and they just haven’t shown that. Uh Tennessee Titans, for instance, maybe the worst team in the NFL. Uh but with the Bears, with Caleb, I I think it’s all right on time, guys. Yeah, it’s interesting you say that because we just kind of went through before bringing you on a bunch of you just sort of by-week stat check-ins. It’s still probably a little too early to put too much stock into all this stuff, but when you you do start to see and honestly I I care more about what the film looks like. And I just see a quarterback who’s way more in rhythm, better footwork, seems like he’s comfortable in the pocket, and even on a game like Sunday, and I realize that Bears Raiders game wasn’t the most watched game that the Chiefs were playing at the same time against the uh against the Ravens, but you know, Max Crosby might have been the best player on any football field on Sunday in the entire league. And Caleb still handled it pretty well. Was he a little bit more jittery than a week ago against the Cowboys? Sure. But it still was pretty okay. And what I’d also say is that 2024 Caleb folds in that spot and so does the entire team. You know, that that that’s how I feel about it. It’s like that that’s the difference between between this year and and and last year is that I think that they’re just they know that they’re going to be put in a better position. I think that’s the confidence that that a better coaching staff can can give you. And so last year, listen, I alluded to it in my last answer, but like last Caleb Williams, his fatal flaw as a player is that he holds on to the ball too long. And to have the protections that he had last year, I think made everybody a little bit spooked the entire game. And so now, as you said, he looks way more comfortable getting rid of the ball quickly. And if he holds on to the ball too long, it’s going to take a little a little longer to get there. Um, you know, it was funny. I had uh Trey Smith on my show this week and we do badasses and you put the you put the thing we someone inducts a badass the photo goes up behind me and the number one name I said who’s your badass and he said Joe Tuni he said you know when as a rookie Trey Smith said as a rookie that basically Joe Tuni said I’m not going to let you fail. Um and I think that that you bring those guys in and and and and all of a sudden there’s a there’s a culture change and I don’t think that’s just about the offensive line. I that’s the entire team. They did a very I’m not I’m not like a massive Ryan Poles fan. Um I I was on NFL Live the day he got extended and I did not agree. I my my feeling on it guys is like Ryan Ples’s job is to be Ben Johnson’s buddy, right? I can be his his executive and if Ben Johnson says I want this guy for another four years, then guess what? He gets to stay another four years. That that’s my that’s my viewpoint on it. I haven’t been incredibly uh impressed with the talent acquisition there, but what I can say is the guys so far it looks like it looks like hits and and the team just looks more comfortable. What do you make of the national conversation around Caleb Williams like I feel like some weeks it’s complete panic or especially early on in the season now like a week after that Dan Olowski is going through the film telling everybody it’s not that bad. Now people after two weeks are feeling bit better. like how do you digest all of this? Uh, I think that to be frank, uh, Jaden Daniels injury helps the conversation for that. And and I I thought I thought I put Jaden Daniels in the kind of the morning shows I do, I put I put Jaden Daniels in the top tier of quarterbacks this year because I my feeling on it is the top tier of quarterbacks props open a championship window wherever they go, which which means if if Joe Burrow and Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes go to Cleveland, the championship window opens there. Okay. And I put Jay Daniels in that because we saw a proof of concept last year that he was able to do that with the Commanders franchise that nobody Dominic Fox for the line. He lives in the DC area. People were pretending to not be fans for the past 20 years and then all of a sudden it’s oh here come the Commanders. We’ve always loved them, right? And so I I think the fact that he’s he’s out and the Commanders lost, it’s not the same as the CJ Strad Bryce Young thing a couple years ago, right? Where it was just so obvious that the Panthers aired. And if you guys remember, David Ter basically got he like blamed he blamed the Texans for not winning in week 17 because otherwise he would have gotten to not pick Bryce Young. And it’s like what? Whoa, whoa, whoa. You had the pick. You could have picked anybody. You traded the pick. You traded the pick. But anyway, that that is way more of like a psychological damage thing because it was so obvious that CJ St was better than than Bryce Young. I think with Caleb, um, you just need to see we just need to see more data. like it it was clear last year was was a disaster zone. And what was funny to me is the tape guys, if you remember a couple years ago, guys, all the tape guys, their big line about Trevor Lawrence was that the Urban didn’t count because it was just there was not a professional in the building. Okay. Um, I I always made fun of that because every year is an NFL guy counts and like you know, but but I think you could probably extend if you wanted to that same grace to to Caleb last year where you say, “Hey, the Ebra flu is here. Who the hell knows what’s going on? They hire a bad offensive coordinator. They’re not watching film. All these stories are coming out afterwards.” If you wanted to, you could. Um, I I just think that the national conversation to me it’s it’s a it’s too early to say anything like we’re just going to go back and forth. We we just and I put myself in this. I’m a national pund, right? Like we just we see the ball hit the ball, you know? There’s no like what’s funny about it is everyone’s always like, “Oh, the the national narrative their their marching order has been passed down.” Not really. We just react to what we see. And if Kale Williams has three amazing games this week, we’re going to start talking about whether or not he’s better than Jaden Daniels or Michael Pennix or or Bone Knicks or any of these guys from that draft class. So, um the national conversation to me is is completely uh TBD. Yeah. Well, I thought the best example of that was was and I always black out and immediately forget the preseason as us as soon as it’s over, but um in the moment it always feels like such a big deal. And the Bears played on Sunday Night Football, right? it was against the Bills and he looked great and then every show on Monday morning was like, “Oh my god, Caleb’s here.” Then they played Monday Night Football in the opener and they blew it in the fourth quarter and Caleb wasn’t accurate and then you know so it’s going to and that doesn’t mean any of that’s wrong by the way. They are just reacting to what they’re seeing in front of them. It just takes some time. I actually on Mina Kam show last week I went on a little rant about this about preseason and about what we take from it because I can’t you guys know this but the fans don’t know it and then I for some reason the national pundits don’t know it either. preseason is real deal meaningless. Like like completely irrelevant other than health and like like I went to the Eagles Bengals preseason game and the Zack Taylor afterwards are like, “Hey, how did Shamar Stewart look?” And he had to be like, “Guys, we he had basically without saying it like we don’t care how he looked. Like he’s out there like like he’s out there. They’re not they’re not game planning anything and like you know they they were talking about Joe Burrow uh you know because he was out there and he was playing and uh they were like you how did Joe look and he’s like Joe’s out there because he needed a couple reps where he might get hit right like they’re not worried about the operation of the offense and then but yet it’s like oh we Jackson Dart right oh Jackson Dart look he looks so good nobody’s trying nobody’s trying I saw a screen grab yesterday okay from uh a Titans preseason game where a Titans fan was like what happened to This it was something like August 7th and it was Cam Ward playing in like the most beautiful pocket you’ve ever seen in your life and people were like what happened? Oh, people started trying and so it was just so funny to me when when uh when when it’s like the preseason narrative because I remember that that little mini wave for Caleb Williams. It’s like that we can’t any hype good or bad in the preseason is always wrong. What do you make of like how much are you watching Ben Johnson? like how much are you taking note of his his viral clips whether it’s I’m watching the CBS halftime interviews. Yeah. Yeah. I’m dialed in. Well, those two um like every time he’s on camera on the sideline like what he’s saying like what do you make of his first four games just from like a public relations standpoint? So, uh I don’t know if I’ve if I’ve visited with you guys since uh Ben Johnson was hired, but I want to tell you a story. So, um, Dan Campbell’s first year, I went to Detroit and he done the the kneecap press conference and I I said, “Man, I don’t Everybody’s making fun of him and he’s become a punchline and and I called the the Lions and I was like, “Hey, I want to sit down with this guy because I I don’t think he’s what the national media is portraying him as. I think he loves football and he he was just saying what spoke to him and I just want to sit down with him.” So I end up sitting down for about an hour in his office and I went up to the PR guy, Aean Reynolds in Detroit um the next day. I was there for like three or four days and I was like, “Hey, who knows Dan and the staff?” And the answer was, you know, Aaron Glenn had been on the staff with him, but but really you should be talking to the tight end’s coach, Ben Johnson, because Ben knew him in Miami and empowered him. I think he was assistant tight ends coach for for for Dan Campbell in Miami. And at one he was inherited and then Dan kept him on and empowered him and promoted him and all that stuff. And it wasn’t like a linear thing where it was like he was his he was his chief of staff for the whole time or whatever, but it was like, you know, they they mixed and matched. And what was amazing about Ben is it felt like he understood, having not played in the NFL, exactly why players respected Dan Campbell, right? and and how authentic you had to be and how much you had to um connect with with with uh a player in a real meaningful way. And so I’m sitting here, whatever year that was, 2021, 2022, I’m saying, man, this this guy this guy’s a little different. This guy this guy views football differently than a lot of assistant coaches. And again, you could never glean from that. again, I I thought Brian Callahan saw football differently and he’s about to be done in Tennessee, right? Um, so you can never 100% be sure, right? Um, but I I I I kept an eye on him from from then and he had a line that I think is has gone viral since in that in that piece where he basically said like, “Dan Campbell means so much to me that he never has to yell because I just want to I I want to please him at all times.” Right? basically like it I there’s no yelling because we don’t want to let him down and so he never has to to be disappointed yell at us because we’re already disappointed ourselves because we love Dan Campbell so much right I think Ben has that mentality of like he wants his staff to to like him so much that they will perform for him which is what Dan had and so I’ve always kept that in mind uh Ben in mind and I thought he was going to be an awesome coach and it was interesting the last couple years to see him turn down jobs, turn down interviews, turn down opportunities. Um, you know, I think part of that I think I think that there was a misread where people were like, well, you know, he’s just a humble guy. He wants to call plays. I think part of it was he had a lot of confidence in himself, knew that the opportunities were going to come, was waiting for the exact right moment. Uh, I had Daniel Jeremiah uh on my show last year and he said, “Hey, if I’m Ben Johnson, I roll I keep rolling it over until Cincinnati comes open,” which who knows when that’s going to be, but like he was the only guy who could really name his his price and name his situation, right? And that he he named he named the Chicago Bears, which in itself is is a win. Um, but to answer your question, like how much am I watching? I’m watching him a lot and I I think he’s checking all the right boxes. It’s not as talented as It’s so funny because Aaron Glenn is in the situation Dan Campbell was in, right? Where Bridge quarterback, not a lot of talent. They’re going to win three games this year. They’re going to win eight games next year and then the third year, right? Brad Holmes, the GM, had a line when I was there in Detroit that that same year where he was like, “Hey, this is the HVAC year. We’re just tearing everything down.” Chicago’s not in that situation because Chicago, they should win now. And so it’s not a onetoone thing with Detroit. It’s not uh a we need to find a quarterback. You have a quarterback. A we need to find weapons. Nope. You you have you have two really good weapons and you have a couple tight ends who can play and the defense should be coming along. You’re in year whatever you are with polls four or five. You should be coming along. Uh simp has to prove that he’s competent this year, which he’s doing. And then next year is the year where it’s hey, if you aren’t in the playoffs, that’s when I’m like come on, man. Let’s let’s let’s get the show on the road. So, I think, you know, I think a lot of Bears fans felt that idea of like being flattered that Ben Johnson picked Chicago and I think some are still very surprised he did. Um, I agree with everything you just said in terms of the timeline. Um, and yet I think you look at this franchise and the amount of coaching searches Adam and I have covered here and GM searches and the fact that they haven’t won a playoff game since George Macy took over as the chairman of the board. Um, there’s some still like it still seems like there’s some skeletons in the closet at Hell’s Hall that Ben Johnson is being tasked to overcome it in some of the ways that Dan Campbell had to do in Detroit. take this losing organization and take it into this century and and flip the culture. Um it’s interesting you said earlier about the game Sunday being a game that you know they they lose in the past because you know who said that to me yesterday in the locker room? DJ Moore said that you know so uh I there’s some early signs here even though the Bears are two and two. They blew it on Monday Night Football. They gave up 52 points to Ben Johnson’s old team that some of this stuff is starting to flip. I guess that’s a long winded way of me trying to ask you when the hell will we know if you know Ben Johnson really is the real deal cuz it seems like he is but it’s still early. I do a radio show on Sundays with Mike Channab and actually uh the third guy is Drew Butler who is the son of Kevin Butler the uh longtime uh Bears place kicker or punter. Yeah, butad. Yeah, his son his son’s really good. His son’s really good on the radio. He does local stuff in Atlanta now. He’s working with us on ESPN radio. Um but uh he we were talking we’re talking about the Saints and we were saying no one expects the Saints win Super Bowl. We’re talking about Tan Bomb. Tan’s talking about this. What you want to see and the Bears and Saints are different situations, but you want to see competitive competitive games every single week and then win games. This this for me is the big one. Win games you’re not supposed to win, right? Like that that’s that is it to me. like the Raiders. I’m not going to sit here and be like, “Wow, beating the Raiders is the Bears are back, right? Like I’m not not going to do that.” But you say, “Hey, we went on the road in Detroit and we stole one. We went on the road in Green Bay and we stole one. We went on the road in Minnesota if if JJ and we we scored 28 points in a Brian Flores defense.” It’s those kind of things that I look for early. That to me is the sign of culture. Again, the difference to me in making the playoffs and being a wild card contender, especially in a year like this where weird things are happening, you don’t know the roster that well, the difference between winning eight and 10 games, sometimes it’s a couple fumbles, sometimes it’s a couple of of of busts early in the season, you don’t remember it. So, like I if they win eight games and miss the playoffs this year, I’m not going to declare anything. No, no one busted, okay? Like, I’m not going to say it’s over. What I’m going to say is competitiveness, not making stupid mistakes. And I think what’s going on right now with Aaron Glenn with the Jets is everybody’s all pissed off because all these pre- snap penalties, right? And like that to me is is a really important part of it is like don’t don’t play stupid. Play prepared. And and that so when will you know Bears fans don’t want to hear this. You’ll know this at the end of year three, right? Like that that’s it. And and you’ll know you’ll know that with Caleb, too. Like you probably know at the end of next year with Caleb, but at some point you got to sign him. So who Lord knows what he’s going to make if he if if he if he is worthy of a second contract probably be like 70 million by then um in two years but or 60 65 whatever it is but I mean if Trevor Lawrence is getting 55 a couple years ago just trajectory wise uh but I’m going to give it I’m going to give it an end of year three when we know what we’ve got in our hands in Chicago and I’m optimistic. I think what’s struck me the most so far about Ben Johnson, at least in the early going here, is like how open and willing he is to be accountable to himself. Like you mentioned pre- snap penalties. The Bears had problems with those throughout training camp, the preeason, early on the season, you know, he wants blame. Like even like this earlier this week, the run game isn’t working, right? And the Bears run defense is is awful. But as far as the Bears run game, forget DeAndre Swift. Ben Johnson is putting that on himself for not figuring out what’s wrong and what’s not working. I don’t know if you’ve noticed some of that, but to me early on, him accepting accountability publicly and saying that, that stands out. It’s funny. I’ I’ve heard this before where someone once said to me, this is actually when I was covering basketball, they were like, “Don’t take the blame for everything because at some point the owner is going to believe you, right?” And like I think that’s a fun but but and so I I sing I think about that all the time because the guys who really take the blame are the guys who have a lot of juice and a lot of capital and like Ben Johnson can own it and do it because he’s got long contract. He’s got a lot of confidence and the city believes in him, right? So it’s on if he was a less secure like Matt Ilu probably could not have just sat there and said this was on me. This is on me. This is on me. especially last year because he finished. He didn’t. That’s why that’s why he lost the locker room, right? And so there actually accountability is a skill, guys. Accountability is a skill and and Ben Johnson has it. And again, I think that comes from Dan Campbell and and seeing what what he has. And then also Dan Campbell learned it from Shawn Peyton, learned it from Bill Parcels. Uh there’s a line in Bill Parcels’s book where he says, “Any mistake we make is a coaching mistake. If somebody drops a pass and they’re wide open by 20 yards and it would have been a 70 yard touchdown to win the game, our wide receivers’s coach did a bad job.” And I I I think there’s a um a lineage there from Parcels to Payton to Campbell to Ben Johnson where they we really believe that. And I think that’s a really really really healthy thing to have in in a locker room. So, um before we get out of here, I want to I want to get your thoughts on the NFC North as a whole through four weeks, which uh it’s been it looks competitive, but it’s also been weird like that tie on Sunday night. Uh what do you make what do you make of things? Yeah, not not what I expected. So, I thought JJ McCarthy is going to be I don’t I don’t want to say good. I want to say that I thought Kevin Oonnell was going to be able to scheme up easy stuff over the middle and that he was going to be able to have a lot of early success. He did not. And now it looks like the Vikings are trying to find any excuse to keep to keep him from playing. They’re like Tracy Wolson’s like, “Well, yeah, they’re not feeling a lot of pain.” And Kevin McConnell’s like, “Yeah, it’s going to be a while.” Oh, yeah. It’s gonna be a while. Like I don’t really know. I have no idea what the hell’s going on there. Okay. Um, and then the Packers to me are the most disappointing so far to lose that game. You talk about someone taking blame in Cleveland. Matt Lafler said that that stupid play call that led to the Grant Delp interception that lost him the game. That was all on him. They should have just run the the ball out of the bootleg. Jordan Love should have gotten a couple yards and they could have like Joe Flacco is not scoring 14 points if you give them real deal field position, right? Um and so it’s been really it’s been really disappointing in that regard. Uh for the Packers, I thought that they were going to be a lot better. Their defense, even though Dak Prescott’s amazing, their defense looked looked pretty bad. Uh and then Detroit looks like Detroit. And so I don’t I I still think any four of these teams can make the playoffs. I’m not eliminating anybody. Uh, and and you know, Brian Flores’s defense is going to keep the Vikings in it for the entire year. I would The only thing I would change, I still think the Packers are probably going to be an NFC contender at the end of the year. The Vikings, especially if Carson Wentz starts a lot more games. I think you can kind of remove them from from NFC contention at the very least. Okay. All right. That’s a good check in here after four weeks. Both Packers and Bears on their buy. Uh, I saw you went to the RDER Cup. Yeah. As a golf guy, I got to ask you about it. Yeah. Uh, I went to the RDER Cup at Madina in 2012. I still say it’s like one of the best sporting events, if not the best I’ve ever been to, and that was despite the fact the US blew that one on Sunday. This one was a little less competitive, although it got interesting on Sunday. What did you think? Uh, so I don’t know how you viewed it, but the Ryder Cup to me was an amazing experience to see golf shots, to be there to energy the crowd. It is the worst place on earth to follow the event. And and you don’t like in the morning the morning sessions cuz it’s alternate shot there’s eight balls total in the air. So people were like oh it’s like any golf tournament. No it’s not. Imagine the Masters if there were eight balls in the air and everyone just hovered around those eight shots. So afternoon we figured out instead of of trying to like oh we’re going to the T- box. We’re going to the green. We’re going to see this because you get there’s too many people. we just walked alongside them, saw their fairway shots where they spend the most time anyway and then skipped the greens and then would go to the next hole. And so we were able to see a lot of like John Rom and Scott Daffer and Bryson Dshambo and Justin Thomas, those guys. Um, but it was you can’t really I mean it’s like us, right? We play we we hit a shot and we don’t know where the hell it is on the green. And so you kind of have to go by the by what the crowd the same the golfers don’t know either. So, you kind of have to go with what the what the crowd is saying because it’s a lot of elevated greens at Beth Page Black. And so, it was an amazing experience. I will just say I have less than zero idea of what the hell actually happened in the golf days as I was there. Yeah. I remember like getting one of those earpieces at like Sirius XM Oh, yeah. Yeah. radio coverage so I could just And then I just walked the course because it was so beautiful and fun. But, all right. Well, maybe in two years they’ll win. Probably not. Uh, Kevin, thank you so much for jumping on with us. We appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Talk to you soon. Thanks, Kev. All right, Kevin Clark from This is Football, ESPN Omaha. He’s everywhere. Incredible interviews on the podcast, too. Um, and I’ll just say this, I didn’t I didn’t like the Ryder Cup experience this year, Johny. I know you didn’t really follow it. I thought the course well once they once they fell behind I was like my interest kind of tuned out right and I guess it got interesting Sunday obviously we were in Vegas we were covering a football game but I was kind of following it at the tailgate and I’m like oh they’re not out of it yet and then it was funny because like the exact second I checked it I like realized that this one match was on the last shot and if it went this way and then sure enough like that it was over. Um I was like so much for that. I just thought it was I just I thought the course was disappointing. I honestly thought the crowd was disappointing. I thought got a little too feisty. Some lines were crossed. Um and obviously the US didn’t play well at home. Not good. You got to win your home games. Got to win the home games. It’s good advice for the Bears who still aren’t going to be home for what basically two and a half more weeks. Correct. It’s the New Orleans Saints. Your math is bad. Saints are bad. They’re feisty though. Bad and feisty. Feisty bad. They’ve I don’t know why I’ve watched as much Saints football as I have, but they are 0 and4 and in three of their games they were actually pretty feisty. The other one they didn’t show up in Seattle, but they went to Buffalo on Sunday and they had a chance to win that game. I feel like you and I have covered some feisty bad Bears teams. Mhm. There was a John Fox team that was feisty. That was feisty and they would that feistiness would waver, fluctuate a bit. Yeah. All right. Um well, obviously coming up for the Saints is a rematch against the Washington Commanders that’ll be talked about a lot. Um who do the Commanders play? I should know that by now at this point. Good thing I have a schedule in front of me. NFC East Washington, they’re at LA, the Chargers. So, they got to go across the country this week to play the Chargers and um and then they come back to the Monday night and Monday night after that. So, they’ll have an extra day of rest, too. Bears, of course, will be on a lot of rest and it’s on Monday Night Football. So, um I mean, we’ll get in. We have three episodes next week, so we got plenty of time to break down that matchup and of course all the storylines that will go into it. But I’ll just go into the by-week with this. I mean, it feels like a big game. Feels like a big opportunity, especially with the Saints looming behind that, a very winnable game at home. You know, the difference between you stole one in LA. You probably gave one away against the Vikings. You even that out, you’re two and two, you’re probably where you should be. Big opportunity to go into Washington. You get a win there. then the Saints at home now you start to get back on track with some of that stuff we were just talking about with Kevin some of those preseason expectations but if you don’t win that game you fall to two and three then you’re just trying to get even and maybe this is a season where there’s kind of hovering around 500 I mean there’s so many different outcomes right now it’s still so early but even now you have more data you have more info and how to project different games like the Baltimore Ravens I thought that’d be an awful matchup for the Bears heading into the season the Ravens defense is not good it’s not good at all Uh Joe Burrow, he’s out for the Cincinnati Bengals. Like that’s a game that if you go through your projections, your wins and losses before the season, like that’s a loss in Cincinnati. Joe Burrow is not playing. That is a different team without Joe Burrow. So this schedule is starting to shift, I think, in the Bears favor in some of these matchups. Even Jaden Daniels, he’s been out now. I feel like he’ll probably be back by that Monday nighter, if not this week. But Terry McLaren has been hurt. So, you know, Debo’s still healthy, but he’s always seems seemingly dealing with some stuff. So, yeah, that that’s it’s a good point. Things always change. Um that’s why I guess those people in the offseason are like, “It’s so ridiculous to predict the games in May.” And I’m like, “Kind of. Everybody does it.” I’m like, “Kind of.” But you know what? You don’t like to have fun because Why not? Everybody in the NFL, GMs, presidents included, owners, they get the schedule, they go through things game by game, and in their head, at the very least, pick which ones they think they will win. Yeah, everybody does it. All right. Um, well, that was fun with Kevin and, uh, it was good good sort of zoom out on Caleb Williams through four weeks. We will be off for the weekend for the buy. Hopefully enjoy the football. Enjoy the weather. Supposed to be like summer this weekend in Chicago. I’m glad glad I’m not going anywhere actually. Um so enjoy the what’ll probably be the last of summer and then we’ll hit fall. We’ll hit the commanders week going strong next week starting on Monday. Looking forward to all that. Uh any final thoughts, John’s? No. Enjoy the bye-week everybody. Thanks for to everyone who said hello in Las Vegas. Even our last night there uh Monday night, people were still coming up to us, me and Braggs and Stephen. So, thank you to everyone. We will see you all very soon. All right. talk to you after

Kevin Clark joins Hoge & Jahns for a check-in conversation on Caleb Williams. How is he QB progressing, what’s stood out so far this season, and what should we expect returning from the bye week?