Can the Colorado Rockies find the same success as other similar market teams?

Can the Colorado Rockies find the same success as other similar market teams?

Today on Locked on Rockies, is mimicking other teams the way to success for the Colorado Rockies? We’ll see as the search for a new general manager and president of baseball operations continues. A new newsletter from Thomas Harding gives us a look into the process as well, diving into all that and more on today’s show. [Music] You are Locked on Rockies, your daily Colorado Rockies podcast, part of the Locked On podcast network. Your team every day. Rock on Rockies fans. Welcome into the Locked On Rockies podcast for today, the eighth day of October in the year 2025. I’m your host of the Lockown Rockies podcast, Paul Holden, bringing you your daily Colorado Rockies talk right here on the Lockdown Podcast Network, where you can find your team every day. Hey, and if your team is the Colorado Rockies, guess what? You’re in the right spot, cuz that’s what we do around here each and every weekday. Free and streaming on your favorite streaming services and on the Locked On Rockies YouTube channel where you can be part of the show, you can fire off your Rockies hot takes, you can let me know what’s on your mind when it comes to the Colorado Rockies. And if you want to ask a question, if you want to be part of the show, if you want to know what’s on my mind, head on over, like the video, subscribe. Best way to help the show is when you like the video, subscribe to the YouTube channel. We are still bringing you Colorado Rocky stock throughout the offseason. Yes, that’s right. So, if you are looking to stay locked in throughout the off season here, we’ll be talking with you here. And that’s why I’m continuing this conversation about the search for the GM. This is the most important piece for the Rockies here. as the Rockies start evaluating the talent with who they bring in, we’ll go back and revisit and everything with player recaps and everything. But this is, you know, going through what’s what’s so interesting for me. And before I dive into my soap box here, I I I do want to let you know that today’s episode is brought to you by FanDuel. Right now, new customers can bet just $5. And if your bet wins, you’ll get $300 in bonus bets to use across the app. Download the app today. I of course am Paul Holden, your Rocky’s fan extraordinaire. been bringing you your daily Rockies talk here now for four seasons. Unfortunately, uh my tenure of the lockdown Rockies host is not necessarily correlated to being a good luck charm for the team, but we’ve grown a great audience and a great group of folks here. But my my point of that I kind of wanted to make with leading in with this is I’m going to and and and this is why I always say I lean on you, the audience here in the offseason. This is this is why I want to be so upfront about this is this is such a a a possibly different off season than we’ve actually faced on the show. There’s there’s so many questions that that that rem that remain unanswered and and that we still have and kind of will remain that way until the Rockies solve this search until this search is over. Because there there are a lot of decisions that are tied up in this, right? until this search is over, then the rest of the dominoes fall. Then the, you know, we can dive in and and in reality, I want to bring on the guests here to help us flesh out some of our player reviews and player recaps and also this search as well because I’m leaning on Purple Road today because I got a comment here uh from the Locked on Rocky’s YouTube comment section here from Jim asking about some GMs and I have to learn about a lot of these GMs, too. I I got to I’m I’m coming clean. I’m coming I’m I’m I’m I’m being honest here. the front office side of things, that side of baseball, the inside baseball type of stuff, not always something I am locked into. So, we’re going to lean on a Purple Row article to help go through some of these names, learn about some of these names, and then through the offseason, I want to bring people on, teach us about these names, then we can know and kind of get an idea together here. But I do think the question of any Rocky’s tie or not is an important one. And uh so, Purple Rose kind of got us covered with with an article there. as uh as we as you know, we we like to follow some people that also cover in the Rockies throughout the offseason. But again, the the number one priority for the Rockies here continues to be bringing in someone to run their president of baseball operations, their general manager, whatever you want to call it. It’s technically, I guess, the same title here underneath the uh the Rockies here. And so the uh one of the nice things about having folks that are uh connected and follow the Rockies in the offseason, you get good helpful newsletters like Thomas Harding’s uh latest Rocky’s beat, which gives a lot of quotes and a lot of things from Rocky’s front office, which again on paper are the things you’re encouraged to hear. I I I I am liking the way that Walker Mfort is answering questions. If we’re talking about, you know, the first the first thing we can kind of give him props for, you got to follow it up. You got to it’s got to be backed up in action and and sustained action, of course. But there was some quotes and and some stuff in this piece that uh I found were uh very interesting to take a look at here. And again, Thomas Harding’s uh Rocky’s Beat newsletter, Rocky’s Eye Revamp with Next Baseball Leader is where we’re reading from here. We’re looking for someone that can come in here, put their eyes on our operation, compare it to operations that have been successful elsewhere around Major League Baseball and help us architect an operation that can reinvent the way we go about things in order to narrow the gap, said Walker Mford, who will take over as executive vice president in January, but is operating as a key figure in the search for a new baseball operations leader. And and even right there, if they’re sticking with that, if that’s and and just starting there, it’s I I that’s the that’s where you need to be right here. How are these other teams working? How have the Brewers built what they have built and created what they have created in their environment? How have all of these people taken their own unique environments and and been able to thrive in them as the Detroit Tigers are playing in the in the you know, in the postseason here? There’s a million type of examples to look at from the Guardians to the Rays, the Diamondbacks, and that’s even mentioned uh by Walker later on in this piece here, but I think that’s already an encouraging that’s the type of stuff that I’m glad to hear that it’s we want to look at what other teams are doing to be successful. We want to learn and grow from, you know, you you know, learn and and and apply and not even grow, but learn and apply what the rest of the league is doing, how these other teams are finding advantages, finding their advantages in the margins, finding what’s working for them in their markets, and be able to tweak and use and and and and apply it to the Colorado Rockies and you can find the strength there because again, people complain about the attendance. People complain about people liking to go to the games and things, but that is one of those unique factors that you can build and grow from. If you can recapture the magic, if you can capitalize on putting an engaging and exciting product on the field, you’re not only going to be a draw for opposing fans, which makes you more interesting, which helps you fill your seats, but you’re also going to be a draw for that, bringing up the the the the demand for the tickets there from from multiple avenues. When you’re talking about that type of, you know, if you’re looking at market size and you’re looking at ways to grow your revenue or ways to be successful, when you’re talking about how the Rockies can compare themselves, you know, when when they compare themselves to the Rays, the Rays can’t do that. The Marlins can’t do that. But they’ve been successful in their draft and develop philosophies. They’ve traded players. They’ve been able to grow and develop those players and at the cost of, you know, maybe fan loyalty and and those long contracts. So, I guess there’s so many avenues and things to look at for all of the teams that are are are not the big high heavy hitter teams, the big level teams that the Rockies can’t compare themselves to that they can learn and grow and adapt from. And I think that that that’s that’s the type of stuff that when I hear that, I hope that it’s not just Walker Mford saying that. And I hope it’s not some, again, this isn’t something that to to necessarily be an insult into the the a slap in the face of the Rocky’s front office. It should be, why wouldn’t you want to learn? Why wouldn’t you want to take, you know, take in some new information? Why wouldn’t you want to be able to adapt your process so you can turn this thing around? For too long, the Rockies have have have have covered their ears and shut their eyes and said, “No, it is the this is our way. It’s our philosophy.” There are so many revenue or things to look at in in a in what is a rapidly developing sports business and just competitive landscape in Major League Baseball. So, I think that even just starting there is a is is is an intriguing eyeopening moment here for the Rockies here. Uh Mford and his father, club owner, president and CEO Dick Mford are planning the search for new baseball operations leadership. The new hireer will be tasked with reshaping how the Rockies operate on the field, how the roster is built, and how players are developed. Walker Mford did not identify possible candidates since the search has not begun. So, an interesting little nugget there. The search has not begun yet. So, so when we were asking in in, you know, in in the episode actually yesterday, how long has this been going on? This decision was made very recently, at least according to this. So, the Rockies got to move here a little bit. they they they have to be able to to start looking at things as as the the offseason is going to be moving very fast and Harding points this out as well. Anyone under contract to another club would have to be granted permission to interview. So, the Rockies are preparing internally for the interview process. Contract and roster decisions begin coming after the due after the World Series and the MLB general managers meetings are set for November 10th to 13th in Las Vegas. Mumford said he’s aware of those dates, but what’s important is making a sound decision. And in that sense, I’m I’m I’m not opposed to that. I I I again criticize the timing, be upset about, you know, not making this decision earlier on in the season and being more prepared to be in this moment here. But if you, like we talked about a little bit in the episode yesterday, if the door opens fully after the season truly comes to an end and you can get all of the best possible candidates, that’ll work for you. And that that that can pay off for the Rockies. As long as you’re in a position, I think though, to be you things need to be set up and you need to be on the right, you need to be on the same page here when it comes to the general managers meeting here in November. Uh let’s see here. Uh just to go a little bit further. Actually, let’s take a break here and let’s let’s roll this over into segment number two here. And uh we’ll get back to this piece because again this is uh giving us probably the this has given us a good look into where the Rockies are at in the search for a new GM and president of baseball operations. Let’s do that on the other side coming up next on today’s episode of Locked on Rockies. Before we do that though, got to tell you about the folks that helped make this show possible and that includes FanDuel. The NFL season is here and FanDuel has an offer you don’t want to miss. Right now, new customers can bet just $5 and get 300 in bonus bets if you win. That’s right. Pick a bet, put down five bucks, and if it hits, you’ll unlock $300 in bonus bets to use across the apps. And so that means you can use those bonus bets for props. You can use those bonus bets for parlays. You can use those bets for live iname betting. It’ll make watching football even more exciting when you got a little something riding on the action. Whether you’re a casual fan or love diving into the stats, FanDuel makes the game day experience so much better. So, what are you waiting for? Visit fanuel.com. That’s fanduel.com to download the FanDuel app today and get started. Remember, first $5 bet hits, $300 in bonus bets to use across the app. Check it out. fanuel.com. Locked on Rocky’s here. Back with you for segment number two. Today’s episode of Locked on Rockies. Free and streaming on your favorite streaming services and on the Locked On Rocky’s YouTube channel. Remember, every time you like the videos, every time you subscribe, you’re not only participating being part of the show, but you’re helping the show grow, helping more folks see the show, and we really do appreciate that. Um, so we’re continuing to read from Thomas Harding’s Rocky’s Beat newsletter here to give some insight into what the Rockies approach here. Learning that the Rockies, you know, the search is still just beginning here for the Rockies as they look to make these moves. again, Walker Mford not officially taking over until January. Also revealed in this newsletter here. Uh but uh let’s go back into the newsletter and and react here. At present, the Rockies 40man roster has an average of 25.7 years and that is with six players 30 or older. Several small to mid-market teams have made shrewd moves to acquire either talented youth to augment their farm systems or economical players with valuable experience. Mford expressed as much when his promotion was announced in June. I’ve talked about doing a deep dive into what we’re doing and how we’re currently allocating our resources. Mford said in June, “Part of what we’re talking about here is looking at clubs. Milwaukee is an example. Cleveland is an example. Arizona is an example. Minnesota, similar market size teams that have had recent success. We need to look at what they’re doing that may be different from us.” And I know that’s something that has been from uh from June. But again, an encouraging sign I think to for it to continue to be like hammered in that the the plan the process is to look outside the organization is to look for answers externally. That is encouraging and it just needs to be followed up with actual actual execution on that. Have we said as we’ve said time and time again and Minnesota will have an interesting uh connection here as we’ll talk about in in just a sec. But um this week, Mumford said the interview process, which is expected to target officials from teams that have won without spending big on free agents or acquiring big contracts, will give the Rockies more information on new approaches. The leader will be tasked with executing a plan. It starts with who we hire. Mford said, “We’ve got to have extensive understanding of what their thoughts are, how they want to go about things, what their vision is for the Colorado Rockies. Ultimately, we’re open to understanding that as we need to move forward, we’re looking at ways that we can get better.” and that person’s taking the lead on it. The unique situation that we’re in is we have the ability to go outside the organization and through this new hire the new hireer garner some best practices that can be replicated here. That’s the type of stuff you got to hear it and that needs to continue to be that that does sound like a loosening of the reigns of of Dick Mford. But it has to be shown right through the interview process actually being due diligent about this. I’m okay with them taking their time here. Like I’ve said a few times as long as they’re following up with this type of stuff. They know that the answer is it it does not sound like at least Walker Mford is convinced that the answer is coming from within. He’s not telling us to be patient. He’s not telling us that we got a great group of guys. He’s not sitting there and telling us the same type of stuff that’s kind of been over and over again when you’re looking at the the, you know, the stuff that we’ve heard time and time again. If we’re just focusing on the positive side of that, right? I mean, there’s there’s certainly still plenty of good reason to be concerned and still plenty of v, you know, reason to hesitate, but at least the focus though in in these answers right here, and remember those are him saying the this week about the interview search there, according to Harding in that piece, that’s the type of that’s the mentality they need to have going into the interviews. They need to know that it’s okay. What can they bring? How can they do it for us? And and and and they need to take the leadership on it. They need to be able to to to put it into play. Make it happen. You know, not only talk about it, but but make it happen as well. And and and I I I like that pressure. I think that’s part of I think that’s part of what you have to ask and say we need you to to lead when when we’re you know when you’re talking about bringing in these people. It’s we have you know how how we have tried to lead how we’ve tried to be successful has not worked. We need you to teach us and show us and and and we need to grow alongside you and you need to set the tone for us because again it’s it’s it’s the unique situation that we’re in here is we have the ability to go outside the organization through this new hire garner some best practices that can be replicated here that’s wanting to grow. So and uh just a couple of little things to or some other things to uh to to to uh follow up on I think that are important points here because Harding sums it all up underneath a segment that says, “What does this all mean?” The focus is on putting leadership in place before making decisions on staff, such as the team’s manager. Warren Schaefer was promoted from third base coach to interim manager after the club relieved Bud Black of his duties on May 11th. Schaefer received positive reviews from players from conversations with various Rockies baseball official since the end of the regular season. Some principles have emerged. No matter who is in charge, an unending factor is the reluctance of bigname pitchers to sign with Colorado during their prime years and the inflated cost that anyone who would entertain the club would demand. Efforts to develop pitching will continue, but will need new eyes. I think that uh I think that says a pretty good story about what might be changing there. New baseball leadership will be tasked with finding innovative ways to develop pitchers who are either drafted and signed or acquired from other clubs. The Rockies need a refresh after 2025 starters posted a 6.6 65 ERA, the highest in Major League Baseball since Erra RA became an official stat in 1913. In an issue related to pitching, but just as much to every area of the club at every level, new leadership will be charged with helping the Rockies catch up with other clubs, especially successful small to mid-market clubs, and gathering and using information. The team has made small increases in the number of employees in one of the games smallest analytics groups. The opening of a performance lab in Scottsdale, Arizona before the 2024 season has helped. And the team has made steps in the use of biomechanics as a tool to help players, but information gathering for the major league clubs and all of the affiliates lags behind others, as do staffing levels in game planning, coaching, and information gathering. Are there innovative ways of scouting, whether for the draft or to acquire players from other organizations? Can the Rockies develop ideas of what works for them and find those players economically? That’s a perfect summarization of of everything that the Iraqis still have out in front of them and how they have to answer this and how this p the new person that takes this role has to be prepared to get involved in all of those areas because they are all issues and that that is what this role is going to be is going to be in charge of. And I I’m not I’m I’m not opposed to them saying that we them saying that when you’re in this in this interview process this is where you need to th you need to be successful in these areas. Tell us how you will be successful. demonstrate how have you been successful in these areas and that’s why I think some of these guys that that you know from some of these teams I really do think the Rockies are going to be fascinated by the Guardians prospects by the Rays prospects by these teams that have been able to to to build something interesting and build something successful in those small to mid-market teams as the Rockies while they might have some potential in terms of fans showing up they’re not going to have the biggest term you know slice of the of the streaming pie. And there also, again, as pointed out by by by Harding in that piece, the reluctancy to get bigname pitchers to come in their prime to be able to be an impact. You can’t just spend your money on big free agent pitchers. That’s just not how it’s going to work for the Rockies. So, finding that creative solution, I mean, if you can crack that code, it’s been the biggest code that the Rockies have been trying to crack their entire existence, basically, that’ll be franchise altered. Uh but but this is an this is an opportunity for someone to step into this role and and change the the franchise. That’s that’s what you’re hoping for if you take this job, right? You’re not just taking the job to to to do whatever. You’re taking this job to change a franchise. And the Rockies need a lot of changing. All right, let’s uh take a look at some of the names the Rocky that uh the Locked on Rockies YouTube comment section was talking about. Coincidentally, Purple Row talked about him as well, so we’ll dive into that coming up next here on Locked on Rockies. Before we do that though, got to tell you about the folks that help make this show possible and that includes Rouette. 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Segment number three of today’s episode of Locked on Rockies. And like I said in the beginning here as uh we’re getting to the segment number three. I got to learn a lot about GM names. I got to learn about who these GMs are and what the process is. So when Jim says, “Any thoughts on the following list of possible GMs for the Rockies?” Thad Lavine, maybe not since he worked for the Rockies previously. Andy Mccay, John Daniels, Dayton Moore, Billy Eper. I recognize some of these names and and some of the contributions here, but I was like, hm, I don’t want to come in here and sound like I, you know, make it sound like I’m some expert of of baseball ops and what folks have uh been been able to accomplish here. So, guess what? Purple Row looked into some of these names as well with some of these things. And one of the first questions I, you know, that I do ask is, are are the Rockies, you know, capable of uh you know, are are they capable of truly looking outside the organization? No ties, everything like that. And you know, I that brings up the immediate and thad Lavine here where the Rockies have a connection, but it’s been a while. I I do think though that this is their chance to truly truly just have no bring in that totally totally fresh perspective. No ties, no connections, something different, something new. And uh here’s uh what Purple Row adds about Thaad Lavine. Thaad Lavine worked for the Rockies under Odow, arguably arguably the Rocky’s best GM from 1999 to 2005 before being assistant GM in Texas and GM and senior VP for Minnesota. Lavine is dominating rumors right now as the most logical pick to replace Schmidt. Purple Rose own Renee Dehart called for Lavine, a former Rangers twins and Rocky’s executive to perform an audit of the team’s operation in June. Now that there’s an opening at top the front office, Denver Post columnist, Troy Renick, is pleading for Levine to take over as the president of baseball operations, who then has the power to hire a GM, an assistant GM, a scouting director, and more analytic specialists. MLB Trade Rumors is also hinting Lavine is in consideration for the job and interested in it. Renick compares Lavine to a leader similar in Kelly McGregor, someone who’s capable of coordinating and developing a roster construction philosophy and the communication skills to make it happen. So again, this is just, you know, type of that some of that type of stuff there. But when your ties to the Rockies when you’ve worked for them is under one of the more successful stretches there 199, you know, not necessarily leading into uh, you know, Rocktober or anything, but solid rosters and and teams that were a little bit there. I I I I do give I’m not as worried about that. and and and a uh you know, I’m not as I’m not as like kind of like shocked or like I wouldn’t be as offended if if you go there because it’s been 20 years. It’s a it’s a totally different situation. It’s a totally different team, totally different philosophy, totally different landscape. So many things are different. But just being the favorite here, you know, I I do like to at least be like, okay, if you have a favorite, if you have someone clear in mind, like there’s like it seems like that is I’ve seen this name a few times as we as Purple Row mentions in this piece again, which by the way is titled Who Should Take Over Baseball Operations for the Rockies by Joel Milholm on Purple Row. Um the uh so so I like the teams that it’s uh that that he’s been a part of as well. Rangers talking about uh the the Rangers being able to be a World Series champion and uh Minnesota’s a very interesting uh you know team where not a great year but they’ve they’ve made some big splashes, made some big moments and been able to capitalize at least be competitive kind of falling short with some of the stuff but I I do wonder if it’s it’s construction or or hesitancy or or deadline operations. um I haven’t followed Minnesota enough there. But but Rangers and Twins again a team that I think the Twins kind of have a you know a passionate fan base like the Rockies uh you know that that really can buy in where things are there. So if you’re able to to to grasp onto that that is uh the uh would be an interesting one here. Uh let’s go to Andy McKay here as that that’s what’s uh asked here from Jim in the the comment section. McKay served as the peak performance coordinator for Colorado’s minor league system from 2012 to 2015 before heading to Seattle where he rose to vice president and assistant GM prior to the 2025 season. With the Mariners success this season in winning the American League West and earning the number two seed in the AL, McKay is expected to be a popular candidate this off seasonason. McKay currently works under former Rockies reliever and currently current Mariners’s uh PBO Jerry Dotto who also worked as a special assistant to ODAD for the Rockies in 2001 and O2 before his front office career skyrocketed. According to Kevin Henry, McKay drew praise from multiple Rockies including John Gray and Tyler Matzik for his work as the Rockies peak performance coordinator. Intrigue there. Mariners certainly a very fascinating team and a team uh you know that you’re that you’re pumped to to to see if you have that connection. But that’s a pretty recent uh Rockies connection as well. Uh you know, I’m glad to see that it’s uh you know, people like the the conditioning and when you’re talking about 2012 to 2015, that is building the team up into getting ready for those back-to-back postseason runs. But again, that’s a little too recent for me to to to be over uh overly comfortable and confident in that uh in that right pick. but learned a lot and learned a lot, gone through a lot, you know, being a part of the Mariners organization, especially as they were criticized for for not, you know, made some moves. They’ve made, you know, made some splashes, then they didn’t, and then at this trade deadline, the the pressure was really on for them to to to make some big big moves, and they did. So, and of course, when you get some uh some props from former Rockies players, especially good Rockies players, that’ll always help uh there as well. Dayton Moore here. Purple Rose says, “When looking at teams that turn a 100 loss seasons around for the Rockies to emulate, the Kansas City Royals aren’t a bad guy.” Moore worked as a GM and PBO for the Royals starting in 2006 after three straight 100 loss seasons. Sound familiar? The Royals went to the World Series in 14 and 15 under Moore’s guidance, having also worked in the Braves organization before Kansas City. And with his time as a current senior adviser baseball operations with Rangers, Moore would bring a lot of non-Rockies baseball experience. And that’s some intrigue and that’s some stuff that that that makes you rise raise raise some eyebrows there. That’s worth like you know these these guys that have some of these Rocky’s connections, right? You you know we’re talking about McKay, we’re talking about Lavine as Purple Row describes them inside out picks. This is a person that can say, “Hey, this is what we did in Kansas City. This was the philosophy I brought. this is how we were successful in not only navigating these seasons but then getting to and winning the World Series and you know the Royals and and and Braves there’s been some winning and you know the the Royals not nearly as much as the Braves but the Braves certainly an organization that knows how to win and and have sustained success there. So there was definitely some intrigue definitely some intrigue there and definitely someone that that that keep the conversation going. Again, I don’t want you to just settle if you if you if some of these guys are front runners, some of these guys with connections. Don’t just settle for their connections to you. Go out and make sure you’re do and and and really entertain this idea. Really listen in this interview. Really listen in this process of what someone like this can say. You know what U more could come and say and like, hey, we did it. We navigated it. We went through this. How can you help us do the same thing? How can you help us be the this version of the Royals? What do you see here that can work there? And uh that’ll, you know, that’ll put a nice little jolt there uh in the that could put a nice little jolt in the or I should say. Uh let’s see here. And then John Daniels here. Uh like I said, still doing my research on, but John Daniels, here’s what Purple Rose says. Another organization fans often ask the Rockies to copy is Tampa Bay where Daniels is current Daniels currently serves as a senior adviser. A former GM and PBO for the Texas Rangers, a position he earned when he was 28, making him the youngest GM ever at the time. Started his front office career as an intern with the Rockies in 2001. After his year with the Rockies, he joined the Rangers, helping lead the team to four AL West titles and two AL pennants. When you have that success, that’s the type of stuff you want to learn and grow from and emulate. That’s the type of stuff you want to you want to learn from and you want to get in there and and and and and see how they can apply that to you. It’s not you can’t it’s not just a one for one thing. It’s not just bringing in these guys, but the intrigue with going with these candidates that are poss that are that have no Rocky’s ties and a year-long internship is still technically a Rocky’s tie opens up the door for a lot of possibilities. And that’s what this whole this that’s what this whole moment is. It’s it’s a it’s an it is a moment full of possibilities and opportunities. And it’s how will the Rockies respond and and and answer that call to opportunity? We’ll have to see. Folks, that is going to do it for today’s episode of Locked on Rockies. Thank you so much for making us your first listen of the day. We’re free and streaming of your and on the Locked On Rocky’s YouTube streaming service. Oh, I totally got my uh wires crossed there. But anyway, check us out YouTube streaming services. Second listen of the day, go check out Locked on MLB and Locked on MLB Game Night. And if you need more Colorado sports coverage, Locked on Broncos, Avalanche Nuggets, and Buffs free and streaming on your favorite streaming services. Until next time, I’m Paul Holden saying so long from the Locked On Rocky’s podcast.

We are starting to get some more insight into the Rockies look for their next baseball ops leader, can the Rockies recreate the success of other teams in the league and will they embrace what it would take to make that happen?

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