Thinking on Mickey Loomis, waiting on Tyler Shough

Thinking on Mickey Loomis, waiting on Tyler Shough

[Music] Welcome into the Saints Insider podcast. Today is Wednesday, October the 22nd. Zack Yuing here with Jeff Duncan, Luke Johnson, and Matthew Paris. And on this podcast, there are no season ending injuries yet. My Killy’s uh taking the time bomb over here. You think so? Oh, yeah. Well, I’m having the same. You’re gonna see me in a boot at some point. I’m sure of it. What’ you do? I’m just getting old. Yeah. I mean, I’m having like a strain in mind now. I’m afraid I’m gonna We’re gonna have a double Ail, man. What about you, Matt? I’m in the best shape of my Achilles. Uh, I tell you what, this this podcast is going to go a number of different directions. We are going to talk season ending injuries to Eric McCoy and Kendry Miller. We are going to talk about the I guess weekly at this point quarterback question of when the timing of of when you turn to Tyler Shuck. Not even a knock on Rattler, just when you turn to Tyler Shuck will be uh for this Saints team and then uh start to turn the page from the loss in Chicago to this week’s home game in Tampa Bay. So the Saints Insider is sponsored by Bank Plus. From small business to big business, home loans to bank anywhere technology. Bank Plus is here for New Orleans. New deposit customers can reach out today to learn about incredible rate specials. Learn more at bankplus.net. Member FDIC equal housing lender. And yeah, I don’t I this feels like a low point, an inflection point. It’s probably not as low as the Seattle loss, Luke, but it I think reality has sunk in for even the most optimistic people around the Saints right now that this is this season is just going to be a lost one. Yeah. I I mean like look look the the back half of the schedule is certainly much easier than the front half, right? Like I think there’s there’s a decent possibility they end with a couple more wins in the back half, but like you’re still looking at a team that is I mean it’s just clearly it’s out of it, right? Um you’re one and six, you have basically no shot to win the division and and like the NFC is just like loaded with a lot of teams who are like 500 or better right now. basically your your your chances of making a a crazy push for a wild card run are exceedingly slim. So, and then and then you bring up the fact that they’ve lost two really important offensive players and offense that’s already struggling for the season. Um, you know, it’s it’s it’s just hard to see a path where where they could be like truly relevant, but I think that’s kind of what we all anticipated we’d see this season. Um, and really to me, this back half of the season is just about finding out what you have in the future. It’s about feeling comfortable with the process that Kell Moore has in place. Like that’s I I feel like that was always the goal. It’s just like now it’s just kind of been hammered home with the way these first seven weeks have gone. Jeff, you I think you tweeted out this morning that the Athletic or New York Times, whatever it is, their model that has playoff chances already has the Saints at less than.1%. Which is like, well, yeah, for week eight is crazy. That’s the po that’s to Luke’s point. I mean, I think the strength of the league right now is the NFC. You know, I think it’s a little more powerful than we all thought. There’s a lot of good teams. Yeah. In the NFC, so I think that contributes to it. Like there’s there’s a real disparity between the top and the bottom. The Saints the only team in the NFC with one win. So there it’s kind of a little bit of statistical, you know, probability factoring in there. But I also think, you know, I was thinking about this this weekend and I don’t know how you all feel about it, but you know, trying to gauge the fan base can always be a dicey little bit of a dicey exercise, but you know, a year ago, we all heard what we hear injuries were the cause of the problem. A lot of a segment of the fan base, Derek Carr is the problem or DA’s the problem. So, it seems like all those things have been rectified and they’re actually worse this year, right? I mean, they’re healthier. They have a new head coach and a new quarterback. So, was that all misguided just out of anger or frustration or was this team on this trajectory no matter what? That kind of the question I I want to ask because I I don’t really know my answer on that. I think I mean I think we said it back you know after last season ended where um you know for all for all of Derek Carr’s faults like he was I mean he was he was a a good solid NFL quarterback like he didn’t do a lot of stuff that you wanted to see out of him but like he still elevated that team and as surprising as as Rattler has been as as you know he’s he’s definitely exceeded expectations right like I still don’t think he’s he’s at that level at this stage of his career. Like he’s definitely got some room to grow and I think you could see him getting to that level, but like you know they they can’t like lean on him in the way that you could for like a like a 10-year veteran to to get stuff done. Like there’s there’s just like a lot of stuff that that he is not capable of doing yet. So I think I think the young quarterback thing has been a big part of this even if he’s played better than than a lot of people thought. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s like when you when you take an experienced quarterback out of the equation and you go to the young guy, like I I think it sets up a season like we’re seeing even if he’s playing okay. I don’t even think it’s just necessarily having a young quarterback. I just think this roster is not where it needs to be. And I think that’s well yeah kind of what this season has showed because well that’s that’s getting the dunks. Yes. You can blame the injuries. You can blame the coaching staff. Um, you know, the other thing the fans wanted last season that they didn’t get was firing Mickey Lumis. And he’s the one who picks the players or, you know, oversees the roster. And, uh, those conversations have not quieted, at least on Twitter, from uh, the fan base who are still out for blood with that. And they just haven’t done a good enough job of building their roster. I mean, they’re playing Tampa Bay this week. Tampa Bay is a team that’s drafted very well, that’s been able to sustain some of this turnover that they’ve had uh from Tom Brady retiring for instance. They hit on the quarterback. They just they’re pivotal steps you have to have for a franchise and the Saints have just missed uh on some of the marks even if this coaching staff looks promising and you know they found some things on the margins. It’s just the ro the overall health of the roster is not nearly as strong as what it was in the Breeze era. It’s interesting you say all that too because the common denominator, Jeff, to your point, okay, the injuries are better this year, although maybe not for long. The the quarterback is different, the coaching staff is different. The common denominator is is Mickey Lumis and and the front office. And I know fans are starting to turn to that as their scapegoat. Mickey Mickey Lumis went on WWL last night, his weekly radio appearance, and and basically said the opposite of what he did last year where last year he’s going, “Okay, you have to look beyond the record.” That was the famous comment that that kind of ticked everybody off and said, “Well, you know, you are what your record says you are.” This year he kind of said that and he said, “Well, look, one and six is not good enough. It’s not going to get it done.” Is that a sign Mickey feels pressure? Is that a sign where he just trying to get people off his back? I mean, what do you guys think of that? Yeah, he’s Yeah, he’s pandering to the to the temperature of the fan base and he knows he knows I mean he got PR people out there and people advising him about what tenor and what what note to strike and I think he’s just doing that. Well, it’s also different because you can acknowledge the realities in the first year of a head coach that you hired. You don’t feel any pressure like he wanted to keep Dennis Allen. He was trying to alleviate the pressure of Dennis Allen by pointing to all the injuries. Like I think he was trying last season he was trying to do his coach a solid and it didn’t ultimately work. But I think that was kind of the rationale behind that. Yeah. And I think like you know I guess what I was getting at earlier was you know I’m not sure that this would we’d still be sitting here right now even with Derek Carr. Like I I feel like maybe he might have made a difference in one more win or something. I just feel like this was where they were going to end up regardless if Carr retired or not. I feel like it’s a bigger there’s a bigger thing going on here than just one of those aspects. It’s kind of all of them and um you know whether even DA you know DA obviously had some issues as a head coach but there’s just a lot of things going wrong and um it’s not as simple the reductive reasoning of let’s hang this guy you know let’s hang Derek Carr let’s hang DA you know it’s just it’s you’re going to go through the whole whole organization eventually you know what I’m saying that’s where they’re at. I think I think I guess what I was trying to say is they wouldn’t be I don’t think they’d be one in six. I think they’d be like a like a mediocre football team, which is like like it is better, I think, to be one and six and have have the opportunity to just like really do a a like a functional reset on your team than to be hanging on like they were with Derek Car. You know, when he was on the field, they were a 500 football team. I feel like that’s probably where they’d be right now. Yeah. And to Lumis’ credit, like he has set up this roster in more recent months to try and pivot toward the young players or or give, you know, this coaching staff. We’ve seen Quincy Riley in the R line lineup, Yonas Sanker because of the injuries. But I think they were acknowledging that this was a period of transition. We want to see more of these young guys. let’s try and not bring in a lot of veterans in in free agency. Like they clearly recognize that without car there’s going to have to be a a little bit of a shift and I think they’ve done some of that. Well, that’s I agree 100%. Then that gets back to the column I wrote a week ago. Why wouldn’t you look to trade any asset you have? It’s not going to be a part of your long-term future. If you were looking down the road, which I think they are clearly by their actions, then if people are calling as all these reports, and I don’t think all these reports are wrong, right? Good people are reporting it. Why would you not look to move regardless of if the player wants you to wants to stay? I mean, I know you want to be loyal. I get it. You know, there’s something to be said for that. Trading somebody is difficult. There’s families involved. There’s, you know, lifestyle. I get all of it. It’s a business and I think that’s something that needs to be addressed if they’re going to sit there and I mean you have a chance to get some assets. You’re one and six. They’re not going to make the playoffs. We know that. That’s what they should be doing in my opinion. Looking to the future if you’re really in uh I get it. You know, pulling that band-aid off. There’s going to be a segment of the fan base that loves player A, player B. It happens, but it people get over it too. You know, they did with Jimmy Graham. They did with Reggie Bush. Move on. Matt, to that point, you compiled a list of guys you had seen mentioned as trade targets or at least possibilities in the national media and you came up with 11 names that you saw. Is that right? 10, I believe. Okay. 10. But yeah, I mean just based on NFL Network, ESPN and CBS Sports, Cam Jordan, Dylan Raidens, Brandon Cooks, Alvin Chimera, Pete Warner, Carl Granderson, Deario Davis, Chris, Chris Olive, Rasheed Jahed. Um, what was I at a nine? I’m missing one. Pete Warner. Pete Warner. Yes. And so that’s like some of those are are fan sentimental favorites. Like I don’t think there’s any use in training camp Jordan. Like what does that give you? I mean, you’re doing it for like a seventh and a six swap, right? He’s like one of your most iconic players. like it’s not worth it to trade someone like that because what you’re getting back won’t won’t no one’s like realistically g give up good assets for a 35-y old pass rusher but Chris Olive you know if teams are willing to pay what the Saints got for Marshon Latimore Saints I think would have to do it like that was a really good return you can see where the Saints benefited from that they got Yonas Sanker out of the deal uh with the draft pick that they received from the commanders I believe Quincy Riley as part of that like players who can help you pivot to that next era. And so Olive had a real bounceback game last week. I think I I said on the show last week the reason to keep Olive is because I think he can still restore his value to a better point and then maybe trade him next year when he’s in his fifth year option. if you can’t reach an agreement there there’s important there’s value of keeping him around for Spencer Rattler’s development or the quarterback but hey if you have a team willing to give up like premium assets then you know the to your point that the Saints are in a position where they probably need to do that okay uh one thing that also has shifted this conversation that we need to hit on is is the two season ending injuries that were suffered in Sunday’s game in Chicago Eric McCoy torn biceps Kendrick Miller torn ACL Both need surgery. Both will be out for the season. That’s four now. Justin Reed, I’m sorry, not Justin Reed. Julian Blackman and um Vernon Broton also out for the season. So, the injuries are starting to pile up a little bit. I don’t know. Like last year was the outlier Luke where you’re just no team should go through that. Just statistically it shouldn’t happen that way. This is a little bit more normal, but especially with a guy like McCoy we saw last year like this stuff takes its toll too. McCoy is one of one of the few guys who like if they’re gonna if they’re gonna like be the best version of themselves that can’t afford to to miss. Um, you know, you could you could lose a lot of guys and probably still still patch something together. I I don’t I don’t see how you can do it without Eric McCoy. He’s so important to what they do, especially with young quarterbacks in there. Like, he is the glue that keeps that offensive line together. He’s the one calling out the protections, identifying blitzes. Um, you know, and beyond that, he’s just a really good player. I mean, really good. Um, you know, PFF is is what it is. It’s not like the the end- all beall, but like they have him as the highest graded pass blocking center in in football this year. He was the highest graded center on the service in all of last year in the games that he played. Um, he’s think best player. He’s he’s so so so good. Um, and without him in the lineup, I mean, it is going to be it’s going to affect the entire offensive line. It’s going to and it’s going to affect the quarterbacks. It’s going to affect the ground game. It’s going to affect protection. It’s it’s like he he has such a a huge role on this team, such a huge impact that I don’t think a lot of teams centers do. Um, and even if you really like what you’ve seen out of players like Taurus Elli Simkins or or whatever, I I think there’s there’s just such a giant drop off there that like the Kendra Miller thing, it sucks. It really sucks for Kendry Miller. Um, you know, it’s it’s yet another season where he plays like half or less of the games, but like when you’re looking at the out outlook and impact on this year’s team, Eric McCoy is the biggest one. Well, I feel bad for Eric McCoy, too, is now this is back-to-back seasons of this, and then you’re getting into uncomfortable conversations of how much can the Saints rely on Eric McCoy going forward because he set a new career low in games played last year was seven. Six this year, seven. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It would be seven this year. Yeah, same. But not not enough. Yeah, not enough. Um, and so, uh, it would be it’s just tough. You know, it it kind of reminds me of what happened with Ryan Ramchre. The injuries are a lot different, but this was a guy who was a pillar on your offensive line, an anchor, and then they eventually just couldn’t count on him. I feel bad for Jeff Duncan because he’s not going to lead the team in rushing this year. So, Oh, I forgot about that. I actually didn’t think about that. I’m I’m shocked you didn’t. That wasn’t No, I didn’t even think about that. Yeah, I guess that that is a little bit of a a bad situ. No, look, I I think Luke’s right 100%. Like they can absorb Blackman and any of these other ones. This is a this is a tough blow. I would say he’s probably one of the three most indispensable guys on the roster. I mean, he’s just uh he affects so many different parts of the game. And I think also I think more the morale, you know, it’s demoralizing to lose him. He’s a leader, you know, he he brings competence to that line. There’s just a there’s a lot that goes into losing him beyond the physical ability. And um and he’s one of the few guys, you know, I was talking about this yesterday. The Saints really, they’re really the roster is kind of like this. There’s no like there’s no like middle class, you know what I mean? like it’s it’s the Marios and Cams and Taesums and Alvin’s the upper you know the older guys and then there’s all these young guys that are talented Kelvin Banks and Fuaga you know Riley if you want to throw these younger guys in there but they’re missing that mid20s to late 20s prime player and he’s kind of one of them that they have is another oneerson I mean they don’t have very many of them that’s why they’re probably where they’re at right now is they don’t have those guys in They’re perhaps Drew Brees used to always say, you know, do we do we hit me on Breeze? Does that count? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Prices is more the Yeah. Well, he used to always say, and I I agree with him. He’d say, when you’re in your mid to late 20s, you’ve been in the league long enough to know what to do and you’re still physically capable of doing it, you know? And I think that’s the perfect way of looking at it. Like, you know, you can still dominate. You know, Camp Jordan knows what to do, but he no longer has the physical ability to do it. So that’s the prime sweet spot for the NFL and the Saints don’t have enough of those elite players in that age group. Yeah. I mean that’s but it goes back to my earlier thing of like they’ve potentially set the roster this way. They haven’t tried to find many of those bridge guys or sign guys on their second contract in free agency. One because like they’re trying to get their salary cap right to a healthier place. But it’s more beneficial for them to let these guys grow and you know go into a season where Alante Taylor in your fourth year and Klet McKenry and his second like are your starting corners. It’s that there’s you got to let these guys get snapped where there’s development. All right. Well, we will continue this discussion after we take a break here on the Saints Insider. By the way, thinking about those bold predictions for those who missed it in in August, we made bold predictions, but you were Julian Blackman Pro Bowl. That one kaput. Yeah, he played one game right away. The sadry of the pod is not doing well. Your Well, yours was Shuck gets in by week three, so that’s gone. Technically, he played so happening Rods was that Devon Vele would lead the team in completions. How’s that going? Was he got two? Well, they were bold predictions, right? They were bold. Maybe a little too bold. I got I got Tyler Shuck getting offensive rookie of the year votes. Okay. So, yeah, when I’m the clubhouse leader, we’re in trouble here because I don’t think that’s happening. Four, five. Yeah. I had Justin Reed Pro Bowl in there somewhere. I don’t think that’s going to happen. Uh yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, it’s it’s been a dreary year for us too, I guess. But we will continue the discussion with a little bit on the quarterback situation and when the Saints may make that switch right after this on the Saints Insider. Banking has come to a crossroads. Do you want to bank with an actual bank with actual people? You know, one that you can walk into, or drive-thru, get real help from a real person? Or do you want a bank that lives inside your phone? A digital bank that gives you control of your money, anywhere, anytime. Well, why not both? Bank Plus, a partner in your corner, wherever that may be. Did they ask you to do the commercial, too? Uh, yeah, but they just gave me um one line. Bet like a Caesar. Like, we’re going to sit here and we’re going to tell them how Caesar’s sports book is just so easy to use that you can watch and bet thousands of sports events, even some NFL games. They’ll probably show us betting on our favorite players and teams at all the Vegas hotspots, too. Like, we have time for that montage. I told him I couldn’t do it. They couldn’t afford me. Welcome back to the Saints Insider. We’re looking up offensive rookie of the year uh odds because Tyler Shuck clearly is going to get himself into that conversation. Uh no, I don’t think so. But I do think Matt, we’re at the point now. And a four turnover game certainly advances this conversation. But I think it’s combined with the fact that like Jeff noted, the Saints playoff chances are under 1% already. there’s no realistic path forward. It’s going to be a weekly conversation now and we’ve already had it with Kell Moore this week and he said not this week. When do the Saints take their glance at what Tyler Shuck is in in a live NFL regular season game? Yeah, I think like another way to phrase it would be how long do the Saints want like how big of a sample size do the Saints want to evaluate Tyler Shuck to feel comfortable about his future? you know, the the argument to be made is like it should probably be around now. So, you have half a season of Rattler, half a season of Shock. Um, I don’t think on the merit, you know, Jeff, you wrote about this, but one bad game, like, you should not be pulling Spencer Rattler just because he had a lot of turnovers. It’s more of a picture of where the Saints are at. How beneficial is this for them to keep doing the same thing over and over and not getting those results? It is encouraging that Rattler has shown like I think meaningful improvement. Last week was tough for him, but the Patriots game I thought was his best game as a pro. So, you know, you could see some of that stuff in there. But I don’t know that the the schedule is getting easier. You drafted Tyler Shuck 40th overall. Chuck, even though he didn’t win the starting job, he still has some really interesting traits that I would like to see at some point. I like I I think if they lose this week and it’s more of the same from Spencer Rattler or he’s like an abject disaster um then you go to to Shock against um Rams. The Rams. Yeah. Well, the Rams or or Carolina like one of those two. Like I mean you could wait until the buy but then I don’t know then you’re only getting seven games. Yeah. Luke, how much time’s on your Rattler watch? Yeah. I mean I think it’s to me it’d be probably after the Rams game. Like I think that’s even though we we’ve seen like we saw the Giants put Jackson Darden in I think on the road against the Chargers in in what was a tough environment and he ended up winning that game. The home game. I think you’re right. You’re right. It was a home game. I I just think look this has kind of been my stance from the beginning like like I think we’ve seen a lot of really good encouraging stuff about RER like he might end up being like the guy for this team next year like he might we we just don’t know but like I know well you know like I think I think it’s been it’s been it’s been good enough to be just intrigued by it right say like like you could you could see a path for him to be like like a top I 15 quarterback if he keeps improving, right? You can see that path. Like I think he’s Yeah. I mean, I think he’s top I I think he’s probably top 25 right now, you know, like like like a lot of the numbers that you see, you’re like, “Okay, like he’s better than than player X, Y, and Z in these numbers. He’s got a better pass rating right now than Bon Knicks and Michael Penn, two first round picks from last year.” Okay, but like but if you are not convinced he’s going to be the guy, you’re one and six. You’re probably going to have a top five pick next year. you’re gonna be in position to draft a franchise quarterback for the first time in forever if you want to do that. Like you need to see what Tyler Shuck can do if that’s going to be a possibility for you next year because because like at this point you’re going to know a little bit of what you have in Spencer Rattler and Shuck is a completely unknown variable. He could go in there and completely bomb and you could be like, “Okay, now we know. Now we know. we’re either gonna have roll with Rattler or we’re gonna draft a quarterback next year. You know, I like if if that’s if that’s what happens. But you’ve got to know because like if you are not completely certain right now that Rattler is going to be your guy, like you have to give yourself as much of an opportunity to see what you got in the other guy, the guy that you took 40th overall this year’s draft. And I like I I think it’s not like a complete it’s it’s not like uh like set in stone that like you’re going to put Shuck in there and he’s going to be terrible. Like I think we saw him gradually improve over the regular se over the preseason. I think that they made the right call in starting Spencer Rattler. We’ve seen why he got the starting nod. Um but like what we haven’t seen is what Tyler Shuck looks like now, you know, after he’s had two months to run the scout team offense. like they say they they have seen good things from him. We haven’t seen that because we don’t get to watch that in practice. So like to me it it would make the most sense if you get Rattler gets nine games, Shuck gets eight games, you make the switch after the after the the Rams game. I want to dig into how Shuck has has looked and how we what what we’ve heard in a minute, but one more thing on Rattler, Jeff, he has played better. Um but there’s still this he’s 1 and 12 as a starting quarterback now. Okay, this is now going back almost a full season. Does it change your opinion on this at all? If they should pull an upset in the next two weeks, if they were to beat Tampa Bay on Sunday or go win in LA, big upsets, play Super Bowl contending teams, if he beats one of them, does that give you pause or do you still need to say, “Hey, we need half a season of Tyler Chuck as well.” Yeah, see that’s a good point because I think, you know, it’s not really an applesto apples comparison to the Giants because you had a a veteran like Russell Wilson who you kind of know what he is. The Saints evaluation is complicated because you have two young developmental quarterbacks. So, you really have to what I think this comes down to is how long do you need to see Spencer Rattler? In my opinion, you have what what’s the body of work you need to evaluate him if he is quote unquote the guy. And then once you know what you have in him, then I think I think you move to Shuck no matter what and find out what you have in him because I think the whole ant the whole season now that they’re out of it comes down to this next draft coming up like Luke said where you have a real opportunity to draft somebody you think may be your franchise quarterback of the future and that’s got to be the number one decision that’s that’s at least settled to some degree at the quarterback position this year. So, I think I think it comes down to less about Shuck than it is about Rattler. Do you feel Do they feel like right now they know what Spencer Rattler is? I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if they do that. So, I don’t know if the wins and losses matter so much. Although, I do think that’s the one clear thing that he’s lacked in all this body of work is he hasn’t had a real signature moment, I guess you could say, of the Reds the the Commanders game a year ago where he drove them down, right? That’s like the one thing he’s done. But otherwise, he hasn’t been able to get them over the hump. And all of his backers and the agenda, you know, hashtag agenda, all we heard a year ago was all the injuries, you know, he doesn’t have a fair hand. He’s had almost the entire starting offense all year. You know, the entire starting offense has been healthy until this past week, basically, except Taesm Hill, I guess you’d say. And they’re still lacking. and and I know his numbers look good, but it kind of reminds me like of a younger version of Derek Carr and that it it still’s not adding up to the victories, you know, like when he gets down to the red zone when he is third down the key situations, his numbers are way down near the bottom of the league and that’s the most important areas. So, you have to make that decision as coaches is is he going to figure that out or is that a fatal flaw that’s he’s not going to ever figure out or it’s not good enough that I think that’s probably what’s going on in Airline Drive behind closed doors is figuring those analytics out. If he did get one of those wins, he would buy himself more time. Like I just think the way Kellen Moore operates, I don’t think they’re going to make a change like that just because like that would be the prudent move to do. Like we’ve seen, for instance, what they’re doing with Danny Stzman of like a a rotation. All right, you take a series now over Pete Warner. They don’t they’re not going to do that at quarterback. Like they’re not going to be like, “All right, Tyler Shock, you go in for this drive and Spencer, then you go back out there.” Like, it’d be fun if they did it. But it depends. I just I I don’t think it’s like like it wouldn’t be fair, right, if they if like they lose to the Bucks and then they beat the Rams and then they bench Spencer rather after the Rams. It would not be fair. But like I think it’s still the right move. Like you still got to get the time to see what you got unless they’re like Spencer’s our guy. Yeah. Like that’s that’s the only way they can they can continue to have him in the lineup because they’re going to be they’re going to be faced with a decision to to draft a quarterback early in the draft next year. Like they got to see what they have in Tyler Shuck. I mean though if you’re talking about Spencer Ratley’s development and he does score one of these big wins like I think you owe it to him to see how he can build on it. like is there can like does beating like a team like the Rams like unlock a level of even he’s already very confident but like does he keep playing with that confidence to where now you can start to get a little bit on a roll and does that unlock a new level of his game like I think you kind of owe it to him to see that if he if he pulls off such like a a big win like that but that’s the thing with Rattler is he hasn’t had those big wins it also depends on how those wins come is he throwing three touchdown passes and leading the team or is it another five turnover game from the defense and He’s fine, but not the reason they sure. Yeah. And I think the worst thing that could happen for them is to go into this off season without knowing the answers on both those guys because let’s face it, if they go into the draft next year and do use a top five pick on a quarterback, they’re not going to keep Rattler and Chuck. I mean, they’re going to move on from one, maybe both, who knows? I mean, they’re going to trade that because that that could be an asset to somebody else. They’re not going to have those three guys on the roster. they’ll have some veteran in here and you know it’ll be more like a Giants. So they’ve got to figure all that out. They’ve got to I mean this is all about asset and roster management for the future and uh so I think it has less to do with whether he wins but I think you’re right. The way this organization operates it feels like a lot of times they are very sensitive to optics and the optics would be bad on that. You beat the Rams and all of a sudden No, it would be it would be terrible. It would be terrible but I I still think like I think it’s your right move too. I agree. It’s the right move. Like unless it’s, you know, unless again like unless they are like we really think that we have something in him and and he might be our guy for the future. That’s like the only way that you could get you could you could talk me out of that. You got to stop worrying about optics at some point and start winning. That that’s more important. The variable that that is that we don’t really have access to here that you mentioned, Luke, is how Tyler Shuck has looked behind closed doors. Because for those who don’t know, reporters can go out to practice. Y’all see basically the entire practice in training camp in the preseason. Once the regular season starts, it’s Is it 15 minutes? It’s about 20. Yeah. It’s like we get to see them go through their their stretching routine and then they do some individual work and then they boot us out. So, we never see any like actual like plays competitive. You you get to verify that they’re there and they’re moving around. Okay. But as far as a competitive sequence or a competitive session, the last time we saw Tyler Shuck was the Broncos preseason game. So, we don’t know how he looks. Now, Luke, you you mentioned that the reports have been positive, but would they say if he wasn’t looking good? I I don’t know. No, of course not. Like, especially not this staff. I mean, like you ask Kell Moore about literally anybody. It’s like he looks awesome. You know, he’s done awesome. So, I you know, we just we just have we have no idea where he’s at in this stage of his development, which is like they are obviously armed with more information than we are. Um, so, but I think you still need to see even if like he’s looking great in these scout team practices. I think especially if he’s looking great, but like even if he is right and they’re and they’re feeling very good about it, like you still need to see it in a game like Yeah, there’s a big difference. Huge difference. Yeah, I mean I do think like I can remember it, you know, a few years back when Alex Smith was the starter, that was what that was the big legend, right? Was that Mahomes was just lighting it up as a scout team in practice and gave them enough enough confidence to move on from Alex Smith and go all in on Mahomes. I don’t know if we’re going to see I mean that’s such a rare and he’s also one of the great players we’ve seen in the last generation. So, I don’t know if it’s fair to say like we’re even going to know. I I think it’s very possible the staff won’t know anymore either. Like, they got to get him out there. Like Luke said, you got to get him in a game. You have to see what when the pressure’s on and the live bullets are flying, like how does he react and how does he come back from a a turnover and things like that. I mean, that’s that’s the litmus test and I think we only find that out in the game, right? And Mahomes is also like a top 10 pick, you know? It’s different different scenario with him. Yeah. Yeah. Matt, you have any take on this? I mean, I I if he looks bad in practice, I still almost say you got to get him out there. Some guys just play better when they get under the lights. Yeah. No, that’s true. But I just don’t think we know enough. I mean, we saw him for three snaps in Seattle, just like a three and out, and that’s not enough to judge how he’s 30 point game. Yeah, I I will say this as a as a Louisville guy, I’ll say this. I am starting to wonder like in the back of my mind, you know, is Jeff Brahms so good that maybe he elevated Chuck. I mean, that’s just something I’ve thought about recently because I mean, he is a very good offensive coach and they have a very good system and sometimes you can, you know, Chuck definitely had the best year of his career there. Miller Moss is playing pretty pretty darn well. Like, is that could that be something to think about? Yeah, I mean, it’s it could definitely be part of it. I mean, like, you see you see some of the the traits that are exciting. You know, he’s big, he can move well. Like, I think he’s actually a better runner than Spencer Rattler is. Um, he’s got a big arm, but like, you know, you got to like the the actual like quarterback play might be system specific, right? I think we also like I think we have a pretty good gauge of Kell Moore system at this point. I mean, he’s gotten he’s gotten pretty good play out of out of Spencer Rattler. Um, so like maybe maybe they could get something similar out of Shuck. just don’t know until we see it. The big question for me if when Tyler Shack plays is how does he handle pressure because that was the clear improvement in Spencer Rattler’s game. That’s why he like won the job as he did that avoided negative plays and if that’s too overwhelming for him and now especially without Eric McCoy like that makes it harder to judge Tyler Shuck. But once he’s in there he’s going to have to show he can handle a live NFL pass rusher. And I I’ll say this. I mean, that’s the one aspect of the game that has really surprised me is how much better Rattler is. Now he’s the sacks are starting to add up a little bit. He’s starting to kind of get back to where, you know, he was a year ago, but I think looking at PFF yesterday, he’s number two or number three in the whole league among quarterbacks in running the scrambling behind Baker Mayfield who’s legendary, right? So, I mean, that’s an aspect, but also some of that could be fool’s gold, you know, like is that going to keep up? Just the law of probability. Is he going to keep escaping these miraculous Houdini like escapes or are these sacks going to start adding up? That that’s something the staff has to determine, too. Yeah. Uh Kell Moore did sort of leave the door open for a switch at some point when he talked Monday, although it doesn’t sound like it’s going to be this week. Um haven’t talked to him yet today. Yeah. He said this week he’s it’s he said this week it’s rattler and then uh like when he was asked kind of bluntly at what point do you need to see Shock? He just said it’s week to week. So it’s like he’s it’s just it’ll happen. He’s not getting pinned down. Yeah, it will probably happen. Like unless like unless like everything just clicks into place for Rattler and he and he proves he’s the guy. Rattler took 22 sacks last year in seven games, six starts. So like six and a half games basically in seven starts this year. He’s taken 15. So his sack percentage is down about 2%. That’s that’s Yeah, it’s U. Before we go, one other thing we wanted to touch on kind of a takeaway from the Bears game and that’s on the other side of the ball. Matt, you wrote you can find this on nola.com/saints about the Saints kind of schizophrenic run defense. They seem good some weeks and you go, “Wow, there’s a lot of improvement and this is one of their goals going into the year and they’ve gotten a lot better and then they have a game like Sunday where the Bears run for 222 yards on them.” Some of that was when they were putting the game away, but I mean I would almost argue at that point, you know, they’re running. So, what is the deal, man? Like, you looked at this, it doesn’t seem to matter the scheme. It doesn’t seem to matter the opponent. Like, no. I mean like the only thing I kind of pinpointed and I don’t even know like I don’t think it’s like that like defining is that like teams are taking advantage of when the Saints are in like these light boxes where they’re not crowding the line of scrimmage against Chicago. They had Justin Reed and uh Jonas Sanker like kind of deep on the back end and I think the Bears took advantage of that. But it you can run outside, you can run inside. Like teams are doing a bit of both. And it really does seem to vary week by week of are they good or not? And I think that kind of comes down to the line itself of are they generating enough of a push? Are they being physical? Because that was something you really saw last season is teams were just dominating the line of scrimmage. And this year it’s been a bit more inconsistent. I think one of the one of the specific areas when they have struggled, it’s against it’s against runners who are like pretty good cut back runners, right? Um, a number of DeAndre Swift’s big runs last week were were where he was finding the cutback lane and kind of exploiting uh, you know, maybe a little bit of over pursuit from the Saints. James Cook was the same way. Uh, the Buffalo game, obviously, he’s like one of the best running backs in the NFL. I think that’s that’s just something you’re just like, well, we just got we got beat by that guy. Uh DeAndre Swift, I mean, last week before last week, the only 100 yard game he had was the week before. Like he’s he hadn’t been like putting up huge rushing numbers, but like even Manungai, is that how you say his name? That’s right. Um he doubled his career rushing total. I mean, he’s a rookie, you know, but of Shawn Tucker. Yeah. They they they just um I think they found a weakness to exploit in the Saints running defense. Um, but yeah, I’m with you, Matt. Like, it’s it’s it’s really weird. It is week to week. I remember looking up the the game by game and it’s just like Yeah, it’s just it’s like it I mean, it’s not like every other week because like the 49ers and the Seahawks like they shut down those run games, but then like struggled against the Bills. The Giants game is a really weird one because it’s like h they kept their running backs in check, but they still had 146 yards because Jackson Dart had a really nice day. The Patriots got nothing and the Bears, you know, got everything. Got everything. That’s I feel like I wrote that. Well, I feel like um you know, they actually been pretty good against the run going into this game where I felt like that was but this is the first game I’ve seen them where they kind of got blown off the ball up front and it started early. I mean like first play of the game I think they were getting blown off like Bris actually played a lot better this year against the run, but he was definitely getting blown off the ball. But, you know, the Bears, I think, you know, invested a lot in the offseason to improve their offensive line. You know, Tuni Dolman, I mean, that paid off, I think, in this game. Darnell Wright’s a really nice player for them. Yeah, I think they, you know, that team is on the come a little bit. And I also feel like Ben Johnson realized early in that game like the passing game was really sporadic. I think the Saints were playing pretty well on the back end, so they just leaned into it. Uh, you know, it’s good coaching there. Uh, so I’m not ready to give up on them, but um, they have to tackle a little bit better. And I think Luke’s point is really good about even Kellen said something the other day, you know, he never really gives you much insight, but he even said something like our backside our backside pursuit. And that some of that comes down to just effort, you know, and yeah, you know, being at home and being in the right spot, but that was wide open. There should be somebody filling behind there. We weren’t seeing much of that. All right, that’s going to do it for us today on the Saints Insider podcast. We will be back with another episode Friday previewing Saints in their first NFC South Division game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. And we’ll see what happens in that one. But until then, our producer was Norman Bell. For Matthew Paris, Luke Johnson, and Jeff Duncan, I’m Zach Yuing. Thank you for watching.

With the New Orleans Saints sitting at 1-6 and suffering key season-ending injuries in their loss to the Chicago Bears on Sunday, our Saints Insiders take a look at what could be an inflection point for the team in the 2025 NFL season. We examine comments made by Mickey Loomis on his radio show, wonder about his future and how the team will be built in the near-term.
We also take a look at the Tyler Shough question: When do you take a look at what the second-round rookie can do in a live game? How much would an upset win in the next two weeks change things for Spencer Rattler?
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