What’s a bigger issue with the Cleveland Browns right now: coaching or the overall lack of talent?

What’s a bigger issue with the Cleveland Browns right now: coaching or the overall lack of talent?

Uh, our first topic of the day is brought to us by Mazda. For those who believe it’s not just about playing the game, it’s about redefining it because these moments do more than win. They push what’s possible, reminding us to go that extra yard, shift into that extra gear, and keep the game moving forward. When you follow what moves you, the unexpected is only the beginning. And just like that, there’s more to every highlight. There’s more to every Mazda Mazda, move and be moved. Guys, I’ve been, I’ve been holding on to this topic for a while. I thought we could have done it a couple weeks ago, but there was so much drama going on with the Browns. I said, let’s wait for the bye week. We’ll have a full, essentially half season now the 17 games. You don’t really get that 50 point, uh, way of the season. So it’s as close as we can get to 50%. Uh, Dustin, I’m gonna start with you on this one. When you look at the overall Browns roster and you look at the Brown’s coaching staff and you look at the dilemma that they are currently sitting in at 2 and 6, when you have to identify the biggest problem with the Browns right now, would you say it’s more of a coaching issue or more of a lack of talent on the roster issue? Well, there’s talent on the roster. there’s no doubt that there’s some talent on this football team, but there’s just not enough at the key positions to sustain winning, frankly, you know, they’ve they’ve got good players on defense. They’ve got one of the best defensive players we’ve ever seen, but on the offensive side of the ball they just don’t have enough horses to hold up to to you know, sustain those wins. They don’t have a quarterback, they don’t have receivers. And then at the end of the day, you know, I, I would say the coaching staff certainly deserves a lot of blame because you continue to not be able to score more than 13 points a game. Uh, scheme it up, and it’s not just with Dylan Gabriel, it’s been every quarterback essentially going back several years, right? — It’s
— if you had to say like a percentage wise, like 30% of its Stefanski, 70% of his lack of talent, how would you split that pie? Man, it’s, it’s probably impossible to really put, put a number, a number on it, but, but it’s at least 50/50. I mean, and, and at this point I, I’d probably say at this point because the coaches have had a lot of time like they had 6 years, right? — They’ve been there 6
— years, — 6 years
— 6 years, guys, and they’re skis 8 or 9 games under 500. — We’re on a
— 12 game road losing streak. Where the defense is played. I mean, I, I would say at this point I probably put more onus on the coaching staff. So sure, OK. G, — where are
— you? Um, you want a percentage? Oh yeah, I mean, I, I think it allows us to get our minds around because obviously it’s a shared problem. It’s not all, it’s not all Stefansky or all talent. I’m gonna go with um I’m gonna go with 6535 coach yes, the reason I’m gonna go 6535 with the coach is is simply because if you take a look at the pillars of what organizations built their franchises around, the first thing they look at is go get an elite pass rusher. You have the best one in the league. Second thing they look to do is say, hey, OK, well, now we got a pass rusher. Let’s play that with somebody in the back end. But what about the quarterback? Isn’t quarterback first usually? Well, I’m, I’m, I’m gonna get to the quarterbacks. So, but, but here’s, you know, the top three positions in football, usually people say, um, you got, uh, uh. Quarterback, you got defensive lineman, somebody who can go to quarterback, then you got receiver and then somebody that can stop receivers and cornerbacks and then obviously uh offensive line. If you look at the talent that they have, they have an elite corner, they got elite, uh, the best defensive player in the league. They got good linebackers. They got a solid defense in positions of parts. However, they are lacking a quarterback. They’re lacking um any sort of explosive wide receiver, they’re lacking offense alignment of any sort to do anything. So when you got those sort of deficiencies, I’m like, OK, but we’ve had, we have seen in different places where you’ve had players here. Baker’s done his best football. We, this is the greatest hits. Baker’s playing better than he’s ever played. Uh, you had a guy in Deshaun Watson who, by the way, we look at it now, but Deshaun Watson, when they, when they traded for him was universally known as the top 5 worst top 10 quarterback. That didn’t work. Joe Flacco was here. You said Joe Flacco gave you a great opportunity, right? He leaves here, he throws for 350, 10 days later with no training camp, no OTAs, no nothing. So to me, yes, you do have a lack of players, but that comes from your organization not being able to identify and put those players in a in a good position. Jerry Judy’s falling off the cliff. Um, Ty was sat here and told us, hey. Maybe put him in a slot. Why don’t you? You know, he’s on the side. Let’s figure some stuff out. So to me, and after watching the film, countless games, I just don’t think he’s a very creative play caller. I would say let let Tommy Reese get an opportunity to see what we can do, but to me, I would go 65, 35. I put it on the coach and then the player aspect at 35%. Jay, I’m, I’m pretty much in line with you guys. I, I think that I, I tend to usually say it’s Jimmy’s and Joe’s. that’s always the philosophy I’ve always looked at. It’s so hard to win with bad players. It is so hard to win with bad players, but to your point, Gee, you’ve got the best defensive player in the game. And you’ve got a top 4 depending on the year, he’s had some ups and downs. But I, you know, I think top 3 is a little bit of a stretch, but you could go that far if you wanted with on board. Definitely top 5 quarter. Definitely. So to me, if you have someone who puts elite pressure on the quarterback, that means he’s got to get rid of it quickly. If you’ve got an elite corner, these passes should all be short passes. So you’ve got two of the critical pieces to have an elite defense. At times they’ve, it’s a boondoggle at times they’ve looked elite. — The
— word of the day, — but
— they, but they’re not elite because you have to go on the body of work, not their best performance. If a dude goes out and rolls the 300, but in the other two games, he throws a 75, his average is 150. And so their bad performances. Pulls their regression back to average, you know, middle of the pack. That’s what I think the defense is because they’re elite at home and they’re not good at on the road. But all I say that to say, I think that’s got to be coaching somehow some way when you have two elite chips on the defense and some other emerging talent, by the way, you should be very good. Now this is where it gets tricky for me because it’s an offensive league still you have to score points to win and they cannot. What I will never see it, but here’s what I would love to know. If Andy Reid was the coach of the Browns from July 1st of this year. What would their points per game look like? More, undoubtedly more. What would it be nominally more? Would it be a touchdown a game more, which by the way, even at a touchdown a game more, which is just about a 50% of production increase, that’s still not good enough. It’s just not. So at some point you’re going to be punished by your lack of talent. And, and when you look at the offense, I said this Monday, I’ve said this really going back to training camp, it is an egregious lack of talent. It’s not just like wow, we’re squint hard, maybe you can see I don’t even know if we really know what Judkins is. We’ve seen flashes for sure, but again, if you bowl a 300 and you bowl 275s, you’re a 150 bowler. He’s looked like a 300 bowler in moments and he’s looked like a 75 bowler in other moments. I do think there’s something there. I do think there’s something there with Fanning and because of that, I think Andy Reid could say, Wow, you give me a tight end and a running back, uh, yeah, I’ll give you points. And that’s where I really ding Stefanski. He has schemed up nothing. I watch every week thinking, OK, we’re gonna see something special this week. We saw the wildcat against Miami that it worked. We later found out that was only put in because of the weather. It wasn’t because they need to be creative and find new ways to score at the goal line. Um, that was a little disappointing. So for me, I think I could easily get to 65, 35, Stefanski, and lack of talent, but I do want to point out our lack of talent on the offense. This guy, this might be the worst. I know, I don’t even think, are they ranked 32nd in yards or points? Uh, Steve takes 13. You can see they’re 30th in points. They’re 30th in yards pass yards. — They’re 29th in rush yards
— than this kind of gross, — but who’s the other offenses
— I would I would say Tennessee and maybe the Jets, but the Jets had a big scored like 40. Yeah, — they had a big maybe
— Jacksonville teams in points per game and Tennessee OK Vegas and Tennessee. It’s, uh, you know, so it’s, it, it’s, I don’t think it’s historically bad, but by my anecdotal Brown’s viewing, — this is the worst I’ve ever
— seen. You know, I gotta say I’m stunned that you all blame the coach more than the talent. I, I, I’m shocked. I did not think I’d be alone on this, but to me. As much as I have beef with Kevin Steansky and think it’s time for him to go, to me it’s very clearly. A talent problem more than a coaching problem. I know, but doesn’t it sort of swing for you because there is talent on the defense? — I
— mean, there’s some talent on the defense and the defense, there’s two elite players over there. OK, but two elite players is not enough. You got to have other good players. They have some, and the defense outside of this past week has played well. The defense has played good to great every game but one, which was this past week. So my, my thing is, Adam, you know, and when it comes to the coaching staff, it’s like, OK, if you don’t have talent, then the coaches know they don’t talent, so you have to do other things to, to, to actually manipulate a defense and and put together a game plan to go out and score some points and. I always make this joke, but like Army and Navy score touchdowns. They don’t have the talent, but Army and Navy are not playing against NFL teams, so that’s a big difference. I understand. I’m just giving a little example to, to, to make the point, and I’m not even saying that they like Army and Navy, they win games like. — The Browns just need they can’t score a freaking
— touchdown. I hear you. It’s terrible and there’s no pass for the coach, but both are terrible. So we’re, we’re, you know, a bad combo. It’s a terrible combo. But Jay, you, you specifically said Andy Reid and, and to answer this question, I thought to myself, if I put Andy Reid on the Browns, how many more wins would they have? If I put Kevin Steanski on the Chiefs, how many, how fewer wins would they have? And that it’s just an opinion. There’s obviously no way to know for sure. You don’t think it would be significant. I do not think it would be, no, in terms of wins. Yeah, — I don’t
— think so. Yeah, I think, I think the Browns might have 1 to 2 more wins. You think they’d have 2 more wins 1 to 2. I, I think that he would have found a way. I just don’t believe that Cincinnati, which I think now we know what Cincinnati is, um, the part, the part that gets me is. I watch every, every single, every single game they have, right? And you watch every single film breakdown they have and It’s just, it’s not, — it’s
— high school, yeah, but, but G boy, would you agree the Browns have the worst talent on offense in the entire league? yes, OK, so hold on, but, but here’s the thing though, this is the thing that I always get like Dustin said, it is malpractice if, if we are sitting here, right, and we’re doing a show, right, and the lighting is off and the microphones don’t work, right? And people are complaining in the chat. And we sit here and we have a meeting after the show, and we say, hey, uh, what do you guys suggest? And we sit here and say nothing. We’re like, dude, the microphones is trash and and the lighting is horrible. If you are in a position and you are the head coach and you are are in the meetings and you are in the know, it is unacceptable to say, all right, I like my receivers. I like my talent. They’ve said they like their talent, boo, yeah, I, I hear you. They, and I don’t like the, I don’t like when they say nothing in press conferences, but no, but the reality, the reality is the offensive talent on this roster. Is the worst in the league. I don’t think there’s any argument. If you come, I mean, see, I don’t, I haven’t watched a lot of the Raiders, and I haven’t watched a lot of the Saints. — I
— mean, I mean, I, but I, — but I can’t imagine
— where are the, how could they be worse? — I can’t imagine
— who’s who’s in charge of going to the general manager saying I need this for my team, but that’s not the question here. We’re turning this into just killing Stavansky again, which we always do and it’s fine, and I want him out too, but the question. Specifically is what’s the bigger problem doesn’t mean that the smaller problem is not a problem. I’d say 7030 talent. Oh wow. OK. The talent’s terrible on this team. Listen, I could be talked into that because the offense is, I can’t be talked into it because I watched the film and they run sit downs and checkown routes. So did Steanski forget how to be a good coach? I don’t, I don’t think I, I think Steansky is a run of the mill coach, and I think the Browns have bottom tier talent. — His
— the data doesn’t point it out. The film work doesn’t point it out. You can think that he’s a runner mill coach, but when you sit here and watch every single play, and every single play looks like a uh uh uh. High school game and you’re like that route is not creative. Why are we running that on 3rd down? Why, why are there 3 guys in one place on the football field? Why are we only got 1 guy in the passion? Why are we running the ball and guys aren’t being blocked? It’s like, but I’m not arguing that he’s not doing a bad job. He is doing a bad job. I’m just saying I’m not trying to say he’s not. I’m just saying the lack of talent. I don’t, I don’t, — you’re
— not 100 to 0. I’m, — I’m not 100
— to 0 either. I’m just saying that like the the Browns have never had less talent on their offense, never, not in my lifetime, not the 16 they had uh they had uh Josh Gordon, didn’t they? Josh he was on the roster but wasn’t he sitting out with suspension? — Wall Pryor
— here for that. I can’t remember now it’s been so many years, but they had like a, they had a few decent players on the offensive line. The Browns have nothing. What they average. They have a year in points per game when they were 0 and 16. I’m sure it’s more it’s like no, — it’s like right around it
— was terrible. The talent then was terrible. Yeah, it was bad, but this is hideous. You don’t have what like your best offensive lineman is, is retiring at the end of the year. Your best running backs a rookie who’s banged up. You’re, and none of them are coming back. So it’d be one thing if you had one hole to plug on the line. You have 5. I mean, you could resign two of these guys. I don’t know that they will, but even if you resign two of them, you have 3 gaping holes in your line. You have no wide receiver talent. You have no quarterback. — Like we don’t have enough draft picks
— to finish. You have 3 starters on the team, and I’m, that’s being generous, including Jerry Judy, because hoping he could bounce back next year. He’s, that’s it. You have Judy, Fannon, and Junkins. Those are your only starters on the entire, there’s no other legitimate starters for next year on this entire uh on this. offense, and yes, there’s talent on the defense, but there’s also been good coaching on the defense. Jim Schwartz has done a good job. — I
— go back to it. You go back to 2016 when the Browns were owing something. I could have told you told you where they were owing something because they drafted Cody Kessler in the late rounds who had the same skill set as Dillon Gabriel. He was a guy they said it was smart. He had a uh a below average arm, but he was gonna be a guy that they really believed in. Hugh Jackson put him in. He was horrible. Third round pick we talked about it yesterday, man. At the end of the day, you can’t say it’s talent, but you, you, Kevin Stevansky could have picked any quarterback in that draft. He could have had him. Here’s how he chose. Here’s maybe this is not fair, but here’s how I, I get you all to admit I’m right. You might 100%. You might. Would you rather trade coaches? rosters with the Chiefs, right? Yeah, that’s a no, that’s a great question. I mean, that’s like, — that’s that’s like a loaded
— that’s a very, no, you know what it is? It’s an interesting way of coming at this question because when you put it that way, yeah, — that’s
— easy, but, but you can’t say that because here’s the reason. It’s not, I keep going back to this and I’m I’m wanting to understand how you, you absolved them of this. The, the Chiefs — actively chose the Andy Reid chose the people
— like Bull said that’s going back to how the cake was made, not what the cake. You’re right, you’re right that the construction of this roster is a fireable — Kevinsky
— and you’re to blame for the lack of talent. Yes, he is. No. If I was making an argument that Kevin Stey should keep his job, then what you’re saying is fine. I’m not making that right. I’m just saying if I had to decide what’s the bigger issue, I’d say the talent because I’d much rather have the Chiefs roster than the Chiefs’ coach. But yeah, I would too, and I would say that about any good team in the NFL, yeah, because it’s a, it is the players, — Jimmy’s in the joke that bigger
— impact. But that’s like that’s obvious. I mean that was a great way of putting it. I mean, actually, to be truthful, the only way he flipped you is because they have Patrick Mahomes. Yeah, — but that’s what
— it’s a different. What did you say Mike? I didn’t hear you. If their teams who have the best quarterback in football. OK, let’s pick a team with a good quarterback, not a great Eagles. Oh, never mind, sorry, uh, give me their players, rosters. I mean they’re loaded. Yeah, but they’re loaded pick a different team. Why? What about Denver? Uh, Denver, give me the Browns’ roster. Uh, yeah, I’d take Denver’s roster. That’s not even close. Give me the Browns. Yeah, hell, give me Denver’s roster. — Denver’s
— Denver’s got a great defense, just as good if not better than the Browns. We watched the Cowboys game on Sunday, the Broncos Cowboys. I mean, the Broncos are really good. No, I know, but the Broncos are good. Oh, very good. Give me the give me the Denver Broncos. Give me Nicks. I mean, it’s a quarterback league. Listen, it’s close. It’s close. Wow. You wait a minute, wait a minute. I got to get this right in my mind. You would take right now if someone said to you, Gee, we can take all 53 and send them to Denver. G, think about this hard before you say. Yeah, think about this, the fans bro, bro, one of those, no, — it’s not talk
— about legacy leaving — like
— you will one day go down as saying, yeah, I like the Browns players more than I like the Broncos. This was a team that made the playoffs a year ago. Sean Payton. Has had some questionable years after his great year in New Orleans. Oh my goodness, these guys, are you serious? I serious? All right, here you go here’s yours, buddy. Yeah, I’ll go ahead and explain it. Uh, I got Quinha Jenkins. I think that he’s better than anybody that they have on in terms of their backs. I don’t know if you if you if you look at the top 5 players, if you say give me the top 5 players for the Broncos and the Browns. — I got the top
— 3. No, I’m not saying top. I’m saying I’m, I’m just giving you the top, right now I takes Garrett and Denzel over anybody they got over there. I I like that. I got Patrick. I’ll give you, I’ll give you that. But at least I got 2 out of the 3 top. Yeah, but, but, but even if we’re not even gonna say that they’re a wash, I got I got I got Quin Jenkins. That’s another one. I, I just don’t know what he is. He got. OK, — he’s way better than
— Eddie Sutton. That’s cool. I like him. When you, — when
— you go offensive line. Listen, the games in the trenches, you know that. We gave the Browns hand me down and he sucks. — And he’s
— the Broncos, — if you
— look at their top 10 and 5th in defense. So this is who they got to coach. Who, who you, who doesn’t hold on, hold on, we, we, we talked about no, no, no, how the coaches is a wash. Sean Payton took a rookie, put him in, he was cooking. Sean Payton’s also how did Sean Payton had the heart to do what Kevin Steansky couldn’t do. You know what he did? You know what he did? You, they they, they traded for Russell Wilson, and you know what he did? He took the cap in and said, Get up out of here. Well, now. No, do it. Hold on. — Watch
— this. Hold on. They got rid of him. They took the catpit. They won in the draft and drafted. Nobody thought Bix was gonna cook. They took him. They played him the first year and guess what happened? They made the playoffs. Yeah, — but what
— you hold on to that but none of this has to do with the fact that you’re arguing. — Rather have the coaching the
— talent, the Broncos are way more talented. I’m saying to you is the talent differentiation is not that crazy between the two teams. The difference between the Broncos and what the Browns are is squarely right on that sideline. When you look at what you mean, come on. What the Browns drafted Dylan Gabriel, they took the wrong Oregon quarterback. — So if Sean Payton’s Sean
— Payton has thrown for millions of yards. Drew Brees and he was like, What are you talking about? I asked you a Super Bowlton was the head coach — of the Cleveland Browns right now would be
— what? They have at least 1 or 2 more wins at least. That puts you at 4. Kevin had all of the Broncos players to to coach here in Cleveland. Our record would be what? — About
— the same, same as it is now. He, he’d be, he’d be throwing checkdown routes. Today, come on, you’re letting your hatred for Sasky, which I get, bro, I’m listen, it ain’t no hatred for. No, no, no, there ain’t no hatred for Sasky. You go back and you look at what the what the body of work he’s put on the football field. You guys rub his shoulders all week and say, oh well, it’s not that bad. Like, you know, we killed him yesterday, so let’s come on today. That’s baloney. That’s an unfair accusation. What do you mean? That’s an unfair. Accusation. — I’m sitting here we
— all want him fired. I want him fired. I’m saying what you’re saying is unfair. No, — it’s
— not. He’s been, he’s been the worst offense the last. So who are you? — I’d rather
— have the talent, the players, the coach. So here’s here’s what we’re gonna say. I’m gonna ask you really quickly who has Kevin Say ball with ever? Well, I, I watched him take 2 teams to different teams to the playoffs in 6 years. — I watched that I
— just asked you. No, actually, he took a team and he didn’t win a playoff game. He was at home. No, I didn’t say. Now you put words in my mouth. I said he took two different teams to the playoffs, factually correct. — He
— took two different teams to the playoffs. I wasn’t there. I’m asking you. I’m asking you where to develop. I think, I think what’s happened here is. And I get it. Sometimes you just make a statement and then you’re like, oh God, there’s no way to get out of that. I, I’m I’m doubling, tripling down. I would take the Browns roster is not that different and not that crazy. I got the best defensive player in the world. What are you talking about? Well, the best defensive player in the world right now, according to the NFL is not, — it’s
— right. Now this year it is, — but last
— year, so we’re splitting hairs because the last two defensive MVPs. — It doesn’t
— matter. — Is better than it’s one player
— player. I mean, — I’m not
— arguing with you that it’s not a trade 1 for 1. — Here’s a 3
— for 5. I would not trade. I would trade and again for the 18th time I’ll say I want Kevin Stepansky out of here. But I would trade the Browns’ roster, if I had to choose, trade their roster for any other team’s roster, or trade the coach for any other team’s coach. I would I would either trade the roster or make no trade at all. There’s no team where I’d rather trade for the coach because the coaches, the other bad teams, the coaches, what are you gonna do with it? No, no, no, it’s not that. — It’s just the
— reality is they’re both really bad. Yes, — it’s bad talent
— and bad coaches. — Like what are we
— arguing over? Like we’re splitting hairs, guys. I think we’re not and we’re all, we’re all. Sort of looking silly here. It’s they’re so bad. What we fell into was the way bull phrased, yeah, I knew that was gonna make it. Well, when you put it that way, bull, it’s pretty powerful, because I, it might be close for you. I would have to think about that for 1/10 of a second. I’d be afraid if I thought about it any longer. Denver would say no way. Do you think right now Denver’s GM would call Cleveland and say, I’ve been looking at your team. I got a lot of possibilities with that roster. We’re gonna do an unprecedented roster swap. You cool? Is there any team where you’d rather, right now you’d rather switch coaches than rosters with the Browns? Uh, no, I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I mean, I would love to have Andy Reid. Of course I would love to have Andy Reid, of course, — but
— there’s a lot of coaches I’d rather have. — Here’s
— the, here’s the you don’t. Would you take. Any jockey and put him on any horse and expect him to ride him to the victory. No. — The horse carries the jockey and
— the team and the coach makes it better or worse. Of course he does but you know the coach makes a difference in the last two games of the season, the, the coach makes it’s this, this is wild because you’re sitting here trying to act like the dude that’s sitting on the sidelines drawing the plays. Calling the plays, making evaluations on who should play is not somehow culpable. I would, I would, I would agree with you if, if this were true, what I’m about to say, if I had never seen that coach. Draw plays and score points and win games. I would be with you. If you took those two playoff seasons out of his body of work, I would be with you because here’s the question I would be asking. Can he do it? I don’t think he can do it. I’ve never seen him do it. Here’s what gives me pause about it. I’ve seen him with. My own eyes do it. We sat here G and you sang his praises too, bro, when they made the playoffs. here’s what I’m you were singing his praise, guess what? And guess what? We came back in here. See, sometimes y’all gotta understand life isn’t static. You don’t just stay in one spot. The coaches say all the time, you getting better or you’re getting worse. I fancy he’s gotten worse. So here’s the thing, and when he went to the playoffs, when he went to the playoffs, Jay, the sound bites tell it all. What did we forget? Did D’Amico Ryan tell his player, stand right there. I’m gonna tell you what he gonna throw the football right there, stand right there and he gonna throw it to you. 6 and and guess what? Here’s what I’m saying to you, the fact that they know that. And the coaches, I didn’t say it. Listen to what they’re saying. Themio Ryans, — Mike Vrabo laughed at that man
— last week 16 games or 17 games in the regular season that mattered to get them to the playoffs. — Those
— don’t count. You’ve been figured out. — It took 17
— games. You’ve been figured out. You take a look at what he did in the beginning of his career. I’ve seen it work are they in their last 30s? What is it? — Can we get
— I think they’re 5 and 25. 0, so, so something like that. 55 30s. You’re 5 and 25, — but we’re still talking about what he did
— on this talked about how absolutely awful the offensive line is. Sure. Have we not on this show talked about how inexcusable it is that this team doesn’t have a wide receiver 2 receptions for 31 yards by wide receivers on Sunday. OK, so G, two things can be true at once, and, — and
— they are 6535 is bad and the coach is bad. But when you put it in the terms that Bull put it, I don’t change my mind very often. But bull, that is a that is a powerful argument. I, and I do think that, I think, I think Adam’s right. I think you are kind of caught up in the moment and, and I know you want Steansky out of here. I get that. We all do. No, no, it’s not. But, but to say that you would take Cleveland’s talent with Sean Payton. It, it’s on. — It’s wild work on
— how how is it wild work for me to say that Sean Payton has been more of an accomplished coach in this league that’s OK, so how is it how is it crazy when 4 or 5 weeks ago you guys were talking about the Cleveland Browns having the best defense of all time. By the way, hold on, by the way in 2023, why we want to. Talk about the rosters. If you want to go to 2023, people in this show said it was a top five defense of all time. And then we were wrong. OK, well, here’s the thing, so, so you felt, so here’s the thing, you can be things change over time then what you’re saying. So I can say, you know what? Say was a good coach at one point in time, but things you get new information of course you do. I’m saying the Broncos have better talent than the Browns, — and you’re arguing
— here’s what I’m Kevin’s here’s what I’m saying. — I am saying to me the talent differentiation is not as
— res Bush is saying. What he’s been killing the receiver’s coach for saying. I like my room. No, — actually I like you just
— said it, by the way, I hold on before, but before I came up with the term gentleman’s punt, I told you about receivers 3 years ago. I told you about Lyman 2 years ago when people saying Jed Wilson was OK, now he’s out of the league. Who was that guy? Don’t you can’t get, I got you because I told you before. I got the Duke a knee jerk because I told you you didn’t have no receivers. Well then you want Joanne thing on this before we move on. If you asked every owner in the league right now, would you rather have Kevin Steansky in the Broncos’ roster or the Browns’ roster and John Payton? Do you think anybody would pick the Browns’ roster and Sean Payton? Be honest now. You, you, you’re asking me, those are your choices. Would any of the GMs make the decision that you are GM. You’re saying if you, if you went to every GM in the NFL and said, here are your choices. You can have Kevin Steansky as your head coach and the Broncos’ roster, or you can have the Browns’ roster and Sean Payton as your head coach. You think anybody would take Peyton in the Browns’ roster? Well, he is. Yeah, I think some people say that. OK. It might not be a bunch, but yeah, some people would take that. — Fair
— enough. — The Browns have the 32nd best roster in the league and the Broncos
— offense. They don’t have the best roster. All right, so 26, you know, at the end of the, we’ll find out at the end with our draft last year we were — number 2
— is the Broncos have a top 10 roster in the league. Yes, they probably they have, — they have the
— 5th defense, — I guess
— it depends how good you think Bo Nix is. That’s part of it, but still in the end. I mean, that that does have to factor in the equation, but here’s what I know definitively, he’s better than anything we have. Tom, Tom Brady says something and, and, and I thought it was, I thought he was spot on. He said we rank players all the time. We rank them all the time, and we say, oh this guy’s a top 10 quarterback, he’s coming out number one. We rank him all the time, he said, but we don’t understand this has a lot to do with who’s on your roster and how guys perform. It’s who’s who’s your play caller and who’s the head coach. We don’t rank head coaches one. Through 32, he said, what if you’re a guy that you, you’re a quarterback Tom Brady said that. I didn’t say it. He said, What if you’re a quarterback and you got the 32nd worst play caller and the and the 29th worst head coach? You don’t think that plays a role in the way you play. — So what I’m saying is we could talk about the rosters
— if you if you ask me, would I rather have Sean Payton and the Broncos roster or Kevin Stevansky in the Broncos roster. — I’m gonna tell you Sean
— here’s another way to ask it. When was the last time in any sport. A bad team won a championship. I’m not saying not the best team. I’m saying a bad team. I, I don’t remember it ever happening ever. Bad teams don’t win championships. I’ve seen some coaches that have won championships that I didn’t think were great coaches. They won. They won in spite of the coach because their talent was so great. I don’t think Brian Billick was a great football coach. He had great — Talent on
— defense and that doesn’t mean coaches don’t matter. No, it doesn’t, right? It doesn’t, but sometimes your talent is so good. Again, it’s the horse carrying the jockey to the winner’s circle and the jockey can make a little bit of difference during the ride. It’s the same thing in football. The team is the horse, the coach is the jockey. The, the jockey can absolutely win it for you and he can lose it for you, but you’re not winning it on a dead horse. Ed Orgerons is probably not the best college football coach of all time, right? No, he’s not, but he’s got a natty. — He’s got
— it. Because he had so much freaking talent that he couldn’t mess it up. Gene Chizik has a tie again, they won in spite of the coach. I’ve never seen a bad team win a championship. I will say this though. Ed Ogeron is not a great exes in those guys, but you know what counts? He recruits his ass off. Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, — give me a recruiter any
— day. You got the talent. — I will give
— you that. You got the you know what, in college this is different because in college you can make a difference that way. Like in college you can go get whoever you want to get as much anymore. No, not well, well, you got pockets, right, right, right. My point is in college success, like I’m not, I’m impressed. Don’t, don’t take this the wrong way. You know I’m a Buckeye through and through. I’m impressed with what the Buckeyes have done. But in college you have so many inherent advantages, tradition, facilities, now budget. In college, you can’t just go get or in the NFL you can’t just, I want this guy and this guy and this guy and this guy and this guy and this guy and this guy bring them all in, let’s win. You can’t do that in the NFL because the structure of the league is set up so everyone’s on a 5 or 10 year talent cycle. We want you to be good, then we want you to be bad, then we want you to be good, and some teams defy that in both ways. The Steelers somehow stay at the top end of the talent cycle. The Packers somehow stay at the top end. The Chiefs, the Patriots, some teams stay at the bottom end of the talent cycle. The Browns, the Jets, the Jags, the Panthers, the Saints, we can’t get out of our funk. Some teams take take good picks and pick bad players. And some teams have lower picks, good players. The Browns have had high picks, I mean good picks, meaning high picks, you know, every year when those bad organizations continue to take bad players. That’s why they’re there. But like good organizations like the Chiefs or like the Patriots, the Ravens or the at the Steelers, Ravens, I mean like, but you don’t think about all the, all the good players, those starters, they have more difficult on themselves when they said for a 3 year stretch we’re not gonna pick at the top of the draft. And we’re not going to pick 2 in the 3rd round and 1 in the 4th round. They gave those picks away. So yes, they have misused their draft currency in a horrible way the last 6 years, but they also gave away the most bars of gold during that time. — Yeah and like how are you
— gonna be good and the misusing the draft currency is. Much longer than this current regime. It goes back unfortunately, yeah, that was before we move on to the Browns, they’re 21 2 21. — I don’t
— 30s to the Joe Flacco December where they won 4 or 5. OK, I’m going back to what I was thinking of yeah. Two seasons together because we were 3 and 14 and now we’re 2 and 6 — so that’s 5 and 20 to 5 you know what’s that’s trash
— including the playoffs, — they’ve lost 22 of 20 the last 2
— games. And I know you were in the panel in terms of arguing that Chad agrees with you 8% to 32%. I’m not surprised by that issue, not a lack of roster. Shout out to the, yeah, I’m playing.

At 2-6, most teams would be planning for next season. But the Cleveland Browns find themselves in a peculiar situation — they’re playing in a wide-open AFC North where the division-leading Steelers have just four wins and the 2-5 Ravens are actually favored to win the division.

On this week’s Orange and Brown Talk podcast, Browns beat reporters Mary Kay Cabot and Ashley Bastock and host Dan Labbe outlined three major changes that could potentially resurrect the Browns’ offense and, amazingly, their season. | https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2025/10/3-drastic-moves-to-rescue-the-browns-sputtering-offense.html

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