Carson Wentz undergoes surgery — JJ McCarthy expectations vs. Detroit
[Music] Regulator mount up. We’re coming. [Music] Hey. Everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Coller back here in Minnesota. Of course, the show always presented by FanDuel. We’ll get to FanDuel question of the day in just a little bit. And in the second hour of the show, Brian Murphy and Manny Hill will join, but we have to begin with the news of the day surrounding the Minnesota Vikings. This came out not too long ago that Carson Wentz will undergo surgery and will be out for the remainder of the year. Now, the reporting on this, we know essentially when he got hurt against Cleveland when he tried to lower the shoulder into a couple linebackers and suffered a left shoulder injury. We did know that, but from Ian Rapaort says more details. He suffered a dislocation that tore his labum and fractured the socket. So, he gutted it out for two and a half more games. Uh, I guess it was um maybe even uh I would call it a little more than two and a half, which we will get into here. uh because since this news came out, I have been uh chatting with some folks with let’s just say knowledge of the National Football League and I want to get into some takeaways here of Carson Wentz now being out for the year which absolutely shines a spotlight into the handling of Carson Wentz against the Los Angeles Chargers. So, let’s go back to the game and the exact situation because I think that everybody now and the comment section already having this conversation is talking about how Kevin Oonnell should have taken Carson Wentz out earlier when he was clearly suffering in pain and had this very very serious shoulder injury that he was able to play through. But uh as he was getting knocked around, as he was getting beaten up, looked more and more painful for Carson Wentz. So I went back through the game uh and I was looking just for well when would it have made sense. I mean because he had played through the other game against Philadelphia and he had come close to winning that game. I mean, they were in it for the entire game back and forth with the Eagles and was able to survive that through some pain and through some big hits and through some scrambles. Uh, so I could see where they would think, all right, strap him up again with the shoulder thing. It looked like it was an even bigger, even thicker harness that they had thrown on him. But, uh, when the score got to 31 to 10, so here’s how it kind of went. It was 24-3. And already at 24-3, it’s pretty questionable to still have Carson Wentz in this football game because the chances of you coming back from 24-3 uh on that night on short rest with neither tackle is almost zero. And we’ve seen this team pull off some pretty incredible comebacks over the last couple of years. But 21 points down with your backup quarterback in nothing working. The quarterback is injured. Neither offensive tackle is in the game. Uh, right there it would have probably been enough at 24-3. But when it was 24-3, he got sacked by Khil Mack. And I don’t remember every single time he got up wincing in pain because that was every single time that he left the field. But he got sacked by Khil Mack and they had to punt at 24-3. But Justin Herbert immediately threw an interception after that. It was the first play. Throws a pick and then they have the ball at the 26 yd line. So, okay, you leave Carson Wentz in because you never know when the game could turn on a dime. This was still into the third quarter. All right, they score a touchdown. They get it to 24-10. And you could see where right there, even though your chance is down two touchdowns in the third, that you would not want to take Wentz out of the game, even if he was battling some very serious pain because you never know. It is the Chargers. The Chargers do have a reputation for blowing games in insane fashion. They’re not a perfect team. They don’t have a great record. Maybe this game will flip on a dime. you’ll get another pick, a fumble, something happens on a kickoff, and then you score a touchdown, and you’re right back in the game, and then you’re down by seven. So, you could see there when it was 24-10 why Carson Wentz would still be in the game despite being in a lot of paint. And what Kevin Oonnell said after, and I’ll get to the rest that happened, what he said after was that he was asking the training staff, and they were saying he’s not going to do more damage to it. more likely than not, he’s already knocked it out of its socket and torn it, so what more can you do? Uh, so it was really about a pain management thing. Now, had the Chargers, say, fumbled the next kickoff and the Vikings got the ball back and they score a touchdown, then you would say, “Hey, this might be one of the guttiest games we’ve ever seen from a quarterback for the Minnesota Vikings, battling through this shoulder injury.” And wow, what a what a night if he had gotten them back in the game. But here’s where things change for me is the next drive the Chargers go down with very little resistance and score to make it 31 to 10. Now that was late in the third quarter, midway late in the third quarter at a three touchdown game with the way things were going offensively with the amount of pain that Carson Wentz was clearly in. That was the point to wave the white flag. take him out of the game, live to fight another day, put in Max Brosmer. And look, as much as I understand where Kevin Oonnell was coming from, not wanting Max Bromer as a rookie quarterback to have to come in as Khalil Mack is just feasting and feasting and their defensive line is throwing stunts and twists and there’s different coverages and they can’t run the ball and all that. As much as I get that, when you are down 21 points late in the third quarter to a great quarterback, a really good coach, a defense that’s whooping you, a run game that’s whooping you, the ESPN game cast had them down under 10% chance to win. I think we all could have said it was down under 1% chance to win considering who was actually on the field. like those win probability things do tend to factor in which team is favored, but they don’t always factor in everything like what’s happening in the middle of a game. So, we have to use our brains to adjust the win probability. Let me tell you, it was nothing. There was no chance whatsoever of coming back in that game. That would be the point late in the third quarter down 31-10 where you take out Carson Wentz not just for further damage but for cruel and unusual footballing. Uh at that point it was becoming so far out of hand that the only thing they were going to be able to do was throw the ball down the field and try to get some big plays to come back which would have led Carson Wentz to continue to be in the pocket, continue to take more hits. And guess what? That’s exactly what happened. So at 31-10, he goes back out there, he throws an interception, and at that point, the game is super duper stupendously over. And yet still, he comes out for the following drive after that, throws a bunch of incompletions, takes a bunch more hits, and leaves the game in extreme pain and extreme frustration. And then here we are just days later having season ending surgery. And for Okonnell to say, “Hey, it was just a pain management thing. That’s why we left him in.” Well, I mean, there is a level to where pain management goes way beyond to the point where, yeah, sure. Okay, I guess he’s not going to rip his labroom anymore, but is it really safe to make a human being play out there? And I give a ton a ton of respect to Carson Wentz. He refused to go down. He was taking punches and taking punches and said, “I’m gonna go back out there. I’m gonna keep giving it my best. I’m going to keep playing no matter how many times they hit me. I don’t care. I’m gonna fight for this team.” He grew up cheering for this team. He signs a contract kind of last day. Could have said, “Hey, I’m a mercenary. Get me out of the game right now.” And no, he wanted to continue to fight. And there will be teams in the future, I promise you, who signed Carson Wentz as their backup quarterback because of what they saw here that he was able to win a couple of games, fight through an injury, do his best for the team, and the way he handled himself overall from the minute he got here was extremely extremely professional, working with JJ McCarthy, accepting what his role was, uh, being very humble about the entire thing, even right down to winning a couple of games and getting the question, hey, do you think you should keep being the quarterback and saying, “Guys, I’m not going to go there.” Handled things A+ for Carson Wentz. And he put himself on the line out there. And they could say that he wouldn’t have done further damage. But when you can’t protect yourself, it’s not just the shoulder, it’s everything, right? It’s not just, hey, well, his shoulder can’t get any more injured or any more in need of surgery. Uh, but what about the rest of the guy that’s getting absolutely pummeled out there? Uh, from head to toe, it was not just a shoulder. And it became to the point where it felt like a hockey coach leaving in a goalender who’s given up eight or nine goals and it’s just time to take him out. Like, let’s have some mercy here. Let’s get the guy out of the game. protect him from himself a little bit here in the goalie’s case usually just protect him from embarrassment like just get the backup in and they didn’t do that until much too late until at least two drives too late in that game. I think that that is extremely clear now that they’ve had the surgery. It was extremely clear that night but it makes it so much worse that his season is over after this. And uh so because I don’t like to go too far down the rabbit holes of injuries, I’m not a doctor, not a physician, I haven’t examined anybody and I tend to think that my expertise when it comes to medical stuff is is quite small. That look, I just don’t I don’t know injury recoveries. I that’s hard stuff to talk about. And even when you guys asked the question in the offseason like should they sign some of these players? they have injury histories and my thought was I don’t know because I don’t know those injury histories nor would I really know what to do with those injury histories like that’s an area that is very tricky and very dicey to get into but regarding this WZ thing you know so and I know the internet also likes to overreact to pretty much everything so I spent the last couple of hours just talking to a few people that I know and I’ll just say in the league a couple of people that I know and your reactions are a lot like their reactions. So, uh, just I’ll tell you one note that I got from a person. We’ll just say with knowledge of the situation said to me, quote, “This is more evidence of a bleep show with the training staff this year. So many mismanaged injuries, Van Ginkle, O’Neal, Darasaw, Wentz, and McCarthy.” And another person that I talked to in the league said, “This is how you lose a locker room. Everyone is going to be in the cold tub saying, “What the heck are we doing?” So, I I think that when something like this happens, it does have a reverberation to where other players see Wentz handled this way and they go, “Why are we not taking him out of this game?” Because he’s just getting killed. It doesn’t give you a better chance to win because there’s no chance to win anyway. You can bring in Brosmer, you can hand off, you could throw little swing passes, you could throw little checkdowns. And I understand fully Kevin Oonnell’s explanation where he said, “I don’t want to put a rookie in a situation where the offensive line is getting crushed like that.” I’m paraphrasing, but that’s basically what he said. And I get that. But Brosmer’s on the team. He’s a professional football player. He played in the preseason. He had been in a game against Cincinnati. I don’t think he was going to just take the snap and fall down. I think that he could have taken snaps, handed it off, checked it down, and just gotten to the end of the game with fewer players being hurt, including Carson Wentz having to suffer two at least two more drives than he ever should have had to be out there. And it does, as the one source said, open the door for a little bit more conversation about a lot of different players this year. I have always been a believer that injuries are bad luck and there’s nothing you can do about him. It’s the most frustrating thing in the entire NFL. That sometimes people just get hurt and you can’t do a darn thing about it. You can’t you can’t prevent it. And and look, there’s plenty of examples around the league of guys who are coming off injuries that are having good seasons that are older players. Stefon Diggs is an example of one. ACL injury last year. Hey, he’s older. Hey, he’s coming off an ACL. He’s having a good season. Like, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. Van Ginkle got here with an injury history. Jones got here with an injury history. Cashman got here with an injury history. And yet, even Grenard, all of them last year, and yet all of those worked out. So, last year there was a lot of discussion. There was high grades for the training staff. A lot of conversation from Aaron Jones who had told us that he loved the way that he was managed and the plan that they had laid out for him. Uh they have talked about the individual plans for players and things like that in the past to give the full picture here. This staff has graded very well from the players in the NFL PA survey. But this year, the way that I would best put it is that they’ve left a lot of questions, a lot of questions about Andrew Van Ginkle playing eight snaps against Cincinnati and then we don’t see him again. And why did they think he was available to play then? Was it a reagravation? What happened? Because he had missed a lot of time, started the season, got hurt, came back once again, not able to play. And with Christian Darasaw, that’s been one of the more mysterious injury recoveries that I can remember where it’s coming back and then alleged pitch count overseas and then it’s it’s coming back, but it’s for nine snaps after he plays an excellent game against the Philadelphia Eagles. And Darasaw has insisted that he was way ahead of schedule to ever get out on the field. I don’t know if that’s ever the way it was really presented it to us uh that you know we thought maybe there was a chance he could even get back on the field in week one. And I’m not saying they have to lay out a dossier, but when the player is taken out of a game in Cleveland late in the game in the fourth quarter and then it’s a pitch count that doesn’t quite add up. And then this game he goes out there and gives it a try. He’s out for nine snaps and then he’s back out of the game. Well, should he have been active to begin with? And Brian O’Neal goes into a game, plays against the Philadelphia Eagles, then can’t play the following Thursday. Ryan Kelly had an injury, came back, re got reinjured again with this another concussion after coming back fairly quickly from the first concussion. And the way I would like to put it is just it leaves a lot of questions. I don’t have the answers to those questions because I don’t have the information, nor would I know entirely what to do with it. But for this season, there has been numerous players, including the quarterback JJ McCarthy, who suffers an ankle injury, stays in the game, and then ends up traveling with the team overseas, deals with some swelling, isn’t ready to play, and then still isn’t ready to play on Thursday night, where they’re saying, “Well, if it was a Sunday, then maybe he would be ready to play.” Again, questions. I can’t make accusations. I can only say questions. And I know some of you have said, “Well, why isn’t the media asked about it?” I mean, we ask about these injuries. Every s That’s why we have timelines. That’s why we have here’s what they said this time, this time, this time. Every single press conference has gone along with questions, including after the game about Wentz being left in. So, I’ I’ve seen a little of that. Why didn’t you guys grill him on that? I mean, we got the answer from him. We it was the first question that was asked in the press conference. So I’m I’m not sure uh what the disconnect there is. Now they don’t have to tell us all the details. That is not in the agreement between the Pro Football Writers of America and the Minnesota Vikings. We don’t shake hands on it. Hey, you guys are going to tell us every single thing. So that’s not how it goes. But when a player of Darasaw’s caliber has this in andout in and out when a player of the magnitude of JJ McCarthy and the initial sense for the timeline was two to four weeks and then here we are many weeks later seven seven weeks later that he’s finally going to get on on the field when we have Carson Wentz strapped up with all sorts of crazy gizmos on his body to get out there down 31-10, still taking big hits and hanging on to the ball and and trying to get rid of it and get smacked down and just suffering on the field, you do start to have some questions uh even with Mai Blackman and his recovery and and wondering where some of these things are at with the connection with the coach, the training staff, how the players are being managed. But I think what’s what is it that did stick out to me when I talked to one person in the league and they said, “Hey, when the players don’t have that trust, and this has been a big thing for KOC that he’s talked about himself, and he knows that having been in the league, he knows how important it is to have the trust between the training staff, the coach, and the player. And if this degrades that trust, that is pretty concerning. Uh because I would have to think that if you’re on that field watching WZ go through that when you’re down 21 points in the third and fourth quarter, uh you you’ve got to be asking yourself what what are what are we doing here? As uh the source said to me like that guys will be asking each other what are what are we doing here with Carson Wentz and what are we doing here with some of the other injuries that they have gone through. Um, but again, commend Carson Wentz for his effort to go out and give everything he could to this franchise. Um, not a franchise that he’s been with for very long, just only a couple of months, and one that he clearly admired from afar. Uh, but I also think the fact that, you know, he went and had surgery the minute that JJ McCarthy came back is also probably telling as well. like I’m not gonna mess around here that I think and Ian Rapaort put this out that he said like look, you know, Carson Wentz wants to have a future in the NFL still, so he’s just going to have this surgery now and not risk ending up being thrown back in the game with this uh shoulder injury is how I read what Ian Rapaort was reporting, which I assume would come from Carson Wentz’s side when it included details about his family and stuff like that, that he wants to continue to play in the NFL. Uh he’s not going to risk being thrown back in there to a similar situation. So now the Vikings have JJ McCarthy, Max Bromer, no veteran in the room. Uh we’ll see if there is a veteran who ends up back in here because now you are one JJ McCarthy ankle tweak away from playing Max Bromer. Uh, now at least it looks like going forward you’ll be playing Max Brosmer with the offensive tackles that you expected, but that has been a week-to-eek question in itself. Um, did O’Neal come back too early? Did Darasaw try to force himself out there too early? Did he hear too much of the noise? Did he feel pressured to get back on the field? Or did he feel like he was at 100% and just has not been able to get back to a point where he can play every single week? Uh we saw this with TJ Hawinson last year where yes, Hawinson came back, but when you don’t have the full training camp, it’s very hard to get into football shape on the fly and it took another four weeks or so uh before Hawinson could really play the entire time. And there I think there’s still some question about whether his burst uh has ever quite been the same since that injury, but it took him time coming back. And the same thing uh makes sense for Christian Darasaw, but when you’re having guys come in and out, it it’s really difficult for the team to deal with because now all of the sudden you have Justin School who’s spent the entire time getting ready to play right tackle and then all of a sudden he’s playing left tackle and already Justin School is a guy who’s kind of barely hanging on in the NFL and now you’re asking him do to do something twice as hard. Um, I think it’s it’s really piled up on this team and the tension right now, I I’m thinking with the the three and four record, the defense struggling, um, Okonnell not really wanting to answer a question about the defense after the game, uh, when clearly they’ve been run out of the building the last couple of weeks, something that we never saw coming. And now the other part of it, too, is you look around the NFL and Daniel Jones is in the MVP race. Sam Darnold, who’s gonna play later tonight. Is that right? No, not tonight. Uh, who’s playing tonight? Washington. Anyway, well, anyway, Sam Darnold, uh, is playing really well. And then you have, uh, Bo Nicks, who they didn’t draft, who is now 16-9 in his career and just blew out the Dallas Cowboys. And even Aaron Rogers has played good enough to win some games that Pittsburgh’s horrific defense has not been able to hang on. So, you have a lot of other quarterbacks that the Vikings passed up on uh that are doing well and now that they’re finally getting back to JJ McCarthy. So, there’s pressure. There is a lot of pressure and a lot of questions right now about the Minnesota Vikings. But today with Wentz undergoing the surgery just a few days after being left on the field far longer than he should have been uh it absolutely draws some questions about the handling of that entire situation and uh just judging by your responses. I mean I feel like what happened on Thursday for Vikings fans was just empathy just feeling uh very upset by what you’re seeing and I certainly was myself in the press box. I mean, you don’t want to see anybody get hurt or suffer on a an NFL field. I know it’s part of the game, and I know gritting through it is part of the game, but there is a line that gets crossed of what is the risk versus reward here. Uh, and the reward was nothing to keep him out in the game. So, I I agree with those of you uh who have said that it was, you know, just, you know, borderline cruelty to leave him in the game with the way that he looked and some of the images from that game. I mean, when you’re talking about a guy who’s as tough as they come, having those reactions and then being asked to go out there at 31 to 10, it just didn’t make a whole heck of a lot of sense. And uh really unfortunate for Carson Wentz. And again, just much respect to him and uh what he was able to do coming in as a backup, winning two out of four games, gritting through it. Then, you know, they lose this one, wasn’t able to keep the season on the tracks. But I can’t say how much of that is on Carson Wentz when they couldn’t protect him, couldn’t get the ball out of his hands into the receivers, couldn’t run the football, couldn’t stop anybody. I think that under different circumstances they could have, you know, maybe even beaten Philadelphia, could have beaten the Chargers, but couldn’t make a stop on defense. So, and not that I’m saying the game against the Chargers was close. I just mean if it would had played out differently and the defense was what they supposed it to be, uh maybe things look a lot different or the running game was what it was supposed to be, maybe things look a little bit different. But right now, it feels uh who was it that said dysfunctional? It’s kind of how it feels at the moment and there’s really only one guy who can make it feel functional and that is JJ McCarthy. So, let me give you the FanDuel question of the day which uh would be connected to JJ McCarthy of course and then we’ll get to some of your thoughts and comments and then at 7:30 it will be Brian Murphy and Manny Hill. So, FanDuel question of the day is this. The Vikings Lions line moved from 9.5 to 8.5 today. Maybe it was news of JJ McCarthy being the starter with Wentz out that moved it a little bit closer. How many points do you think the Vikings have to score with JJ McCarthy for them to be in the game against Detroit? So, how many points does JJ McCarthy have to put up offensively for them to have a chance against the Lions who are favored by eight and a half points? Um, so that’s the FanDuel question of the day. And the first comment I see from KFT is uh JJ’s going to get hammered behind the putrid line. Well, it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be. It should be the regular line that we expected. We It should be uh Christian Darasaw, Brian O’Neal, Donovan Jackson, Will Fry, and then we’ll see about the starting center. Michael Jurgens and JJ McCarthy worked a lot together uh earlier in the season when Ryan Kelly was out. I guess in the Atlanta game, maybe they worked a little bit in training camp together when Ryan Kelly was out. He’s never worked with Blake Brle. Now, you might want Brle’s experience as someone who can identify blitzes and things like that, but I’m not sure the last couple of games have offered any evidence that you want to continue to go forward with Blake Brle backup center. It’s a really tough spot. maybe the guy who’s played it for a lot longer in Jurgens makes sense to go back to. It does feel like just you don’t really know who’s going to play uh better because you know Brle did have a a decent game against the Cleveland Browns but the last couple weeks have been really really rough at the center position including that snap against Philadelphia. It’s just it’s just been a tough go. So, I don’t know who’s going to be in its center. But, if you can have four out of five of the projected offensive line healthy, then at least JJ McCarthy will not have to go in there with Justin School and Walter Rouse. But that of course also goes along with if those guys are capable of playing the entire game with some of the injuries that they have uh battled through. Uh, the Baron says, answering the FanDuel question of the day, they’ll have to score more than 40 to be uh, in the game. I mean, yeah, look, I don’t know if it’s 40, but to be in the game, it’s probably pressing 30. Uh, the way that the defense has played now, so often in the NFL, just when you think you’ve got something figured out, it goes back the opposite way. Uh, teams tend to throw kitchen sinks. You’ve got the mini by-week here to look into some things, but the way that this team has been performing overall against the run, it’s been brutal. Uh, against any receivers with talent, they have not been able to cover them. So, here you have Almond Ross St. Brown, who is truly one of the best, Jared Goff, who is truly one of the best in the NFL. It’s it is hard to see unless you can sack and pressure Jared Goff, that they’re going to be able to slow down the Detroit offense. So, you know, 40 is a little aggressive for the FanDuel question of the day, but I don’t think you’re you’re crazy far off on that. Uh, Adrian, do you believe the rumor speculation about KOC not playing Bros because he could cause a quarterback controversy? I think that’s ludicrous. It just is people being bored and making up stuff. I mean, it doesn’t make a lick of sense. he was going to put in Ma Max Bromer in the third quarter of a complete blowout game and he throws a few completions and suddenly it’s a quarterback controversy. I I don’t think so. Uh that doesn’t it really truly doesn’t make any sense. Uh his explanation makes sense that he didn’t want to put in Brosmer as the offensive linemen were getting destroyed. Uh, but there’s a clear thing that you can do to protect Bromer, which would be just start handing the ball off. Just start throwing little swing passes or screen passes and make sure that the ball is out of his hands and then just get to the end of the football game without Max being hurt. Uh, don’t start calling passes that are 27 yards down the field when you’re down 31. I mean, they that’s kind of they were still throwing regular passes within the offense when they’re down 31 to 10 with Won there. So they they could have done it with Wentz and that’s the other part of it too. If they had just had Wentz throw screens and hand off the rest of the game and said, “Hey, let’s get out of here alive.” Uh but they didn’t. I mean, they were trying to get him back in the game and that um didn’t make any sense either. So with Bromer, no, I I don’t have any thought whatsoever that they were afraid that Brosmer in one quarter of football would be so magical. Now, I mean, maybe maybe there’d be a controversy if he came in and threw four touchdowns and pulled off uh what Bo Knicks did a couple weeks ago, but I don’t think that was very realistic for the game. So, no, I I don’t think that uh at all. Um, okay. Some of you guys answers are funny. 60 points, 28 from Marcus to the FanDuel question of the day is reasonable. 33 from Scoliosis. Where do you guys come up with this stuff? Uh those answers make a lot of sense. 2833 to to be in the game against the Detroit Lions who uh have an improved defense this year as well, even though they’ve dealt with some injuries. Uh JP says there are growing questions about KOC’s common sense, not just with injuries, but inflexibility on offensive scheme when it’s not working. Uh you know, and look, this is this is what happens when a backup quarterback plays. And I’ll say it time and time again that when a backup quarterback is in, it breaks everyone’s brain. Uh I was watching a meltdown today that an Atlanta radio host had after they got blown out. Uh that this Atlanta host went crazy about it’s been eight years and this franchise is a disaster from top to bottom and etc etc. And I saw Jason Lock on four I think who was calling for the offensive coordinator of Atlanta’s job. He should be fired. Guess what? It was a backup quarterback in there who has had, you know, a very serious Achilles injury that he never seemingly recovered from. And hey, look, it broke everyone’s brain watching him play. Uh, I follow some Carolina media. And there was some little hints of soft benching because that’s like the words of the year. And guess what? Now they’re arguing with each other of, well, who who thought it was really a good idea to play Andy Dalton and etc, etc. Because again, backup quarterbacks break people’s brains. And it broke us also in 2023 when they had to play Mullins, when they had to play Josh Dobs. But there is some smoking gun to what you’re saying. There are games you can point to. There are moments you can point to where, like, just for example, it’s third and one. You’re just starting the game and your quarterback has his left arm dangling off of his body. And on third and one with Jordan Mason on your team, you put Jefferson in the back field. You try some sort of roll out thing. Carson Wentz at this point in his career. Cannot run. And that’s I mean he tried against Philly and got a first down or two when there was no one around, but he’s not a throw on the run bootlegging like moving around. That’s not who he is. That’s a common sense problem. I saw Alec Lewis tweeted out some stats that the Vikings have thrown more on third and one than anybody else. Again, third and short again this year when you have Mason and I know the O line’s been banged up, but here we are again. You can’t be the only O line uh that’s banged up. So, not really changing that philosophy despite having one of the more physical backs in the NFL. You know, I just I I’ve gone back in my mind at times this season to when Josh Dobs threw 35 passes in a game where they were averaging five yards a carry and he had three interceptions. And yeah, I mean, I I think that there’s some of that for sure that’s that’s popping up. And even when you’re talking about, you know, leaving him in the game, I mean, are you thinking that there’s a comeback there? are you thinking? I mean, his explanation was that he didn’t want to put the rookie in. So, okay. But, uh, then why continue to even try to throw the ball down the field, which is what they did continue to try to do? Uh, you know, so, um, uh, contrasting. So, Bromer is a guaranteed forfeit. Um, do you mean like if you put him in against the Chargers? The game was already over. So, uh, if you put him in against the Chargers, the game is over. It’s a 21-point game going into the fourth quarter, and you can’t block anyone or stop anyone. The game is over. Just put him in, hand off, get Carson Wentz out of there. The guy is suffering. It’s really not that hard. Um, so Ned says, “Maybe Okonnell was waiting for Wentz to let him off the hook by tapping out.” Well, yeah. I don’t know. I don’t I don’t know. I mean, Wentz continued to go back in and say that he could play, but that’s usually what players do. Uh players usually don’t go and say, “Hey, take me out of the game.” Uh Zoomer KO, it was hard to watch. It was Yeah, it really was. Um let’s see. Justin, I think two things can be true. Should commend Wentz and KC did not want another quarterback to be crunched behind that beat up O line, which you can avoid by just handing off. I mean, you have one quarter to go. Uh the game is over. You’re getting destroyed. You don’t have to run the entire offense for Max Bromer and try to go win the game. You don’t have to. So that that premise I think has an issue with it, which is you can just go you can just wave the white flag. You could just throw bubble screens. You could just get the ball out of his hands. Like he doesn’t have to, you know, drop back nine steps or something and try to go win it when you’re already down uh 21 points. So, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, a lot of you are saying the same thing that, you know, that, um, people wanted Bros to start the game because of how injured WZ was. Now, that I think would have been a mess. I mean, it was a mess regardless, but I don’t think that would have been good for Max with Christian Darasaw not being at 100%. Um, let’s see. the whole set of mental gymnastics to defend him requires Brosmer to be dramatically worse than than Wentz. Now look, I mean, yeah, I get what you’re saying for for starting. I mean, now that we know the results, sure, we could say it could not have been worse if Bromer had started. Um, but we also didn’t know exactly how injured. Now, he was injured. We knew that, but he had played pretty well against Philadelphia at times. Not I don’t want to say great. I missed some open throws, but they had scored points and they were in the red zone six times. They failed, but they had moved the ball and and hit some throws. I I wasn’t in favor of starting Brosmer, especially when you find out that O’Neal and Daras are out. It’s really about, you know, get him in late in the game when it’s already over. When the starting pitcher has given up 10 home runs, take him out of the game. Uh don’t wear his arm down even more. Right. That’s I think kind of the point about putting in Max Bromer. I mean, some of you so desperately want to see something else than what was happening as I’m talking about breaking brains. U I think Bromer in that situation, it would not have been any good for him uh to be in that environment either. Not any quarterback, not JJ McCarthy, not Justin Herbert, not Patrick Mahomes. Nobody would have uh done great, I think, in a situation with uh the offensive line losing so quickly. And I I looked this up, the average pressure to Carson Wentz in that game was only 3.2. 2 seconds, which is really fast for an average pressure. Um, so he was getting it, you know, right away. Uh, Man Juice with the super chat. Thank you so much for that. Are the Vikings becoming dysfunctional? Well, I I said this on last night’s podcast. I’ll probably say it about 10 more times as we uh go forward this season. But usually your functioning as a franchise uh is about as good as your win loss record. And nobody’s immune to that. That’s how it is in the NFL. Not even Mike Tomlin, if you follow some Pittsburgh folk who are destroying rightfully uh Mike Tomlin after the way their defense that they spent a bunch of money on has fallen apart. But I will say that this is the first time the first week or two that I felt shades of Zim. uh whether it was a tense press conference, which really wasn’t a thing at any point during O’Connell’s time, uh sensitivities to some things that were written in the local newspaper, which is not something the head coach should be concerned about at all. Uh the handling of injuries becoming a conversation. It absolutely was during Zim’s time behind the scenes through a lot of his time in Minnesota. the discussion of the players trust in Zim to handle those things properly uh was talked about quite a bit and then you know here we are kind of having that same conversation. So yeah, I mean that there’s feelings of that and also when it all goes wrong, that’s where the fingers get pointed. That’s where it’s, hey, it’s your fault for missing on this draft pick. It’s your fault for, you know, going all in on, you know, this player or believing that this was the defensive change in philosophy. And what I will say is that it’s everybody. If you’re going to say we have a culture of collaboration, then you all get blamed. uh you know and a lot of times the only way we know how to talk about blaming people is just by saying someone should be fired which is maybe how we end up as a society paying so many college coaches not to work uh because just someone’s head has to roll all the time um but I think that we can say in this situation like that’s not on the table at three and four but uh it is I think in terms of accountability where you start pointing fingers well it’s really at everyone It’s uh what’s the relationship between the front office and the coaching staff when it comes to player evaluation, when it comes to roster building, because Brian Flores has gotten a lot of credit for free agent signings that worked, but hasn’t gotten any criticism for free agent signings that haven’t worked. So, how many of those signings are, you know, the defensive coordinator pushing for certain things? How many are the front office pushing for certain things? And what happens is when stuff goes wrong, that’s when they point fingers at each other. And how much, you know, is Kevin Oonnell expecting to have an elite defense that doesn’t have it? Uh, and you know, expecting to have his young quarterback that I’m sure he wants to be on the field and hasn’t been able to have it and all those things. And and there’s only one thing that can make this look more functional, and that’s playing really good uh football against the Detroit Lions with your young quarterback to quell some of this discussion. I mean, you think about in Miami, it’s kind of the same way. It looked like it was all over. They get a win and at least for another week, uh, the Miami discussion is not there. And that’s kind of how the, uh, things end up working. Uh, don’t forget the trade for Sam Howell, Ned. Well, they actually, didn’t they end up on the plus side of draft capital for that? I think that they did. Uh, KFT, Jackson, and Addison the only high draft picks. Some others may develop, but most teams over three, four years have more than two draft picks contributing. after those two, it’s men. So that’s what I mean is that what all these discussions end up always turning into is it’s their fault, it’s their fault, it’s their fault, it’s their fault, it’s their fault, and really it’s everybody’s fault. But when we look at and try instead of just pointing fingers to try to trace back how you got here to a team that’s three and four, but also doesn’t seem to have like what’s the light at the end of the tunnel? Well, the light at the end of the tunnel is if JJ McCarthy plays well. So, I don’t want to get to a point where I’m just pointing at things and saying that they stink because that doesn’t quite make sense or saying that the team did everything wrong because when you look at the structure of the Vikings offense at even 80% health and what it can provide to a quarterback now, it can’t provide it to a quarterback who has his arm barely dangling off of his carcass and is doesn’t have either one of his tackles. Now, that doesn’t apply. It doesn’t apply when Nick Mullins was in. It doesn’t apply when Josh Dobs is in. You have to have a certain level of quarterback for this thing to work. And I think we found out last year that level is fairly high because Sam Darnold’s pretty good. And Kirk Cousins is pretty good. And they’ve won a lot of football games when those guys have been in. And this is why it all connects back to JJ McCarthy because right now they have received overall bottom five quarterback play in the NFL. I mean, heck, Justin Fields and the Jets have had better quarterback play than the Minnesota Vikings this year because at least they’ve had two or three games that have been pretty good. The Vikings, I mean, really, none. I don’t think that there’s an impressive game on on the resume. When you look at what everybody else has done to Cincinnati, I mean, uh, even that was just okay. Like, uh, you know, anybody can kind of do that against Cincinnati. The rest of the games, I mean, Pittsburgh’s getting torched left and right. Atlanta, it’s not special. They haven’t gotten good quarterback play all season. So, if McCarthy comes back in and writes the ship, even if the defense is still messy, that’s easier to turn around in a year than it would be the offensive side. So, we can’t look at it and say they’ve done everything wrong because they extended Darasaw, they extended Jefferson, they have Addison, they have Jordan Mason who’s going to be here at least a couple of years, a young and talented back. They signed, I think, a pretty good right guard. I mean, when you sign him for a lot of money, you expect that he’s the next Steve Hutchinson, but that’s not how that’s not realistic. That’s not what he was in Indianapolis. But I don’t think Will Fry has been the issue. Donovan Jackson looks like a pretty good draft pick. You have a lot to work with there for your quarterback. It’s really the defensive side where you’re going to have most of the questions about the thought process of bringing in different players, keeping different players, extending guys, or letting certain players go. And that’s where the draft picks have really crushed them. I got a note from somebody the other day that really since I mean you might even say 2015 uh but let’s even go a little bit earlier than that like even 2020 um through two regimes the number of players that they have drafted or developed that are making a difference on this defense is not very high. So uh I thought that the idea made a lot of sense in the off season. I thought the concept of getting pass rushers on the interior of uh bringing in, you know, a little bit uh of a raw type of player who had kind of been around, but maybe you get a reduced deal because he had a gambling suspension, Isaiah Rogers. Um but, you know, when you look around the defense, so many players have underperformed. I mean, when Josh Matelis signs his extension, we all agree with that. And look, it’s only been seven games, so I don’t think you could throw that out. My point is that a lot of the things have gone wrong on that side of the football and then it’s playing a backup quarterback and injuries at tackle which are the worst thing that you could possibly have on the offensive side. But the offense’s future is pretty bright with the supporting cast if not extremely bright with the supporting cast considering who you’ve got there and defenses can get turned around fairly quickly. So, I don’t want to just say, hey, the future is completely ruined because they missed on these certain bets on that side of the football, but I think that the fact that they haven’t had very many draft picks and that they have traded away a lot of those draft picks to get players to try to help them in win now seasons like TJ Hawinson for a second round draft pick for example, they have not been willing to trade down. So, you draft Addison, you draft Jackson, but you don’t trade down in those drafts. Well, you get fewer draft picks. And I I really think this stat is quite telling, so I’m going to keep going back to it. They’ve picked eight top 100 players since Quay Adafa got here. How many do you think they should have hit on? if they hit on if we call it three of the top 100 and then you know you have some other injuries, you have some go completely bust, but if you’re only drafting eight players in the top 100 where the Detroit Lions are drafting 15 and the Packers are drafting 16, you’re probably going to have a lot less hits. And if you say, “Well, they should hit on fifth, sixth, seventh rounders.” I mean, that’s just those are complete rolls of the dice. And what happened with Kobe King where you draft a guy that you kind of like and then he doesn’t stick around. Like that’s how it goes with fifth rounders, sixth rounders all the time. Um, so you know, I I I think that the strategy has been so much to go all in on certain players that were proven commodities and trade draft picks for them and not trade down because you wanted your guy that they haven’t had that many bites at the apple, which results in not having that many good draft picks. Now, my argument has been if you find a way to make up for that by finding a Jaylen Redmond, by developing a Josh Matelis, by developing previously a Cam Binham or what was supposed to be Theo Jackson and has not worked out this year. uh if you develop players over a couple of years and if you sign players that can come here and step right in when you have a rookie quarterback contract, all of that, I mean, all of that philosophy tracks for me that we’ve seen teams do that before. We’ve seen them stack defenses through free agency. Uh the 2017 Philadelphia Eagles did this. They were starting Ron Derby, Patrick Robinson, veteran players, Chris Long, uh, not the local TV person, but the football player. They did the same thing. They stacked with veteran players on defense, and it paid off for them. It has not paid off for the Vikings this year. It had, it did pay off last year where they bring in, you know, a Stfan Gilmore, a Shaq Griffin, and it works and they, you know, and Van Ginkle and Cashman and it works. And when it works, you’re a genius. and when it doesn’t work, you’re an idiot. And that’s always and forever the case. But their philosophy has been to try to go with more proven players rather than rolls of the dice in the draft. And so they have not had a lot of draft capital. Uh you don’t get very many comp picks when you’re signing players all the time. So that has hurt their ability to draft and develop. It’s not as simple as just they can’t they just can’t see any good players. I mean, if they hit three out of eight, that’s about the expectation. But other teams are getting six out of 16, seven out of 16. I mean, if we look if we just look at the since the Vikings are playing the Lions, at the draft history of the Lions, I’m going to take a look here, how many of their players over the last few years have hit or missed. Um, let’s see. This year is hard to say with just just top hundred players. Hard to say just yet, but um I I’d have to look at how the rookies are doing, but Terry and Arnold from 2024 has not worked out. Uh Andis Rake Straw, not sure that he’s become a great player for them. Jack Campbell and Gibbs and Leaporta and Branch all crushed it. Henden Hooker was also a top 100 pick for them. Uh Brick Martin, who I am not familiar with, top 100 pick for them. Jameson Williams took a while to come along. Josh Pel is kind of just a guy and then they hit it on on Kirby Joseph. So, as we go through those and I can look at their rookie so far this year. As we go through those, we get some hits and some big hits, especially guys that were drafted high. We get some misses. Terry and Arnold hasn’t done a thing for them. That’s a big miss. And yet, where are they at? Well, I mean, they’ve got a million of th those picks. So, they end up hitting on a fair number of them. And you know that that was their philosophy. Their philosophy was to go to the bottom. Tyreek Williams has not made any impact at all uh in terms of run defense pressure, nothing. Two of their first round draft picks are their two worst graded players on defense. Not something you really notice though because they’ve just drafted a million other players because they tanked in sta stack draft capital. Now, we wouldn’t be bringing this up at all if the Vikings had hit on Allen, hit on Hargrave and that philosophy had worked. So, that’s my point is that, you know, what worked for them last year, they went back to the well and it didn’t work again. I don’t think it’s as simple as just saying, well, they missed on some draft picks or bringing up Kyle Hamilton’s name for the 500th time. Like, I get it. Like I I don’t disagree with you that it’s made a major impact, but they had a strategy that worked in 2024 to fill their roster that was built around a rookie quarterback contract and it worked. And this time it did not. But it was also brought up to me and I tend to agree with it that you know some of this stuff even if you look at like yards per carry running last year it’s pretty similar to this year but they’ve run a lot more because they’ve been behind because your offense can’t do anything and there’s a major trickle down effect of a defense that has to be a certain way. Uh Mack disagrees with Tyreek uh being a being a stud. Well, you know that’s that’s great. Uh but in terms of the overall impact uh that he’s made, I mean maybe you’re right, maybe it is. Uh a guy like that doesn’t always show up as well on the PFF grades, the guys who stuff gaps, but still, I mean, a first round draft pick, defensive tackle, okay? Like even if we just say jury’s out, the point is Detroit is drafted well, but they’ve also drafted a million players at at the top. And the Vikings have not drafted hardly any players. That that’s the entire point. uh anonymous uh why doesn’t KOC run the ball? Well, one reason is it doesn’t work. Um they it has not worked this year or any other year, which certainly draws a lot of questions about the running scheme, but the offensive line has been a problem. And I remember somebody saying to me, it was kind of mind-blowing at one point like, you realize run games are also dictated a lot by the quarterback. I was like, you know, that’s actually true. Uh because if you’re throwing the ball well, then teams have to play too deep and there’s more opportunities to run the football, right? But I mean, if you’re playing from behind, you can’t really just sit there and run and run and run. Um now, I think there are certain situations, yes, they can, but I don’t think that this year that’s really the the discussion that we’re having, which is just, you know, like why doesn’t he run? That feels a little bit more like last year when they were winning a lot of games. I get why they they’re not running when they’re down 31 to 10. Uh although maybe they should have been. Uh Henden Hooker might be good. He’s like 35 years old or something. Let it go. Move on. He’s not not the guy. Uh Chris, you think that Dallas Turner draft pick was bad. Uh could have had Bo Knicks. Well, I mean, yeah, I guess they No, I don’t think they could have drafted both uh McCarthy and Bo Knicks with those two picks, but I think I understand what you’re saying. Um, yes, they could have drafted Bo Knicks instead of JJ McCarthy and maybe considering their timeline. Uh, that was a thing that should have been more considered. Uh, but I I think that they went with more upside with somebody like McCarthy that they felt like the upside was limited on Bo Knicks. Now, I was a Bo Knicks appreciator. So, you know, I mean, when he’s 16 and nine, has been to the playoffs, and is on his way there again, it’s hard not to look at that and be like, uh, but we have to let JJ McCarthy play first before we just point at every other quarterback and say, that would have been a better idea. Um, but Nicks is playing well, no doubt about it. The Dallas Turner thing is complicated because overall Dallas Turner has been okay at times. He’s been asked to take on a role that is more than he probably should have. He’s got 18 pressures so far this season. That’s not nothing. Um he’s got a couple of run, you know, run stops. Has played okay against the run. Uh he’s graded well as a tackler. Hasn’t played well against the run in terms of setting edges because he’s not that guy. Um but in terms of making tackles, it hasn’t been the huge step though. It’s kind of looked a lot like last year. And I think that that is concerning. And that’s what I mean about the bets that you make. If you make a bunch of bets that have a 50% or less chance to work out, sometimes it all goes snake eyes. And uh this one is another one that I wouldn’t say snake eyes. He’s a contributor, but uh it’s kind of close to that. Just out of curiosity, wonder where he ranks in pressures overall. So the top guys have in the 40s. Oh, look, Aiden Hutchinson has 48. That’s who the Vikings play. this week. Uh Turner is 46th in pressures. That’s not where you would want him to be based on how much he’s played so far this season. Also, uh the other teams have been ahead and haven’t had to throw the football. So, there’s there is a cascading effect to a lot of different things this year going wrong that have made things worse like that that have played off of each other. And it truly is one of those everything that can go wrong has gone wrong for the Minnesota Vikings this year. And the one thing that could go right for them finally gets to start this week and that’s JJ McCarthy. So in a few minutes going to have Brian Murphy and Manny Hill drop by and we’re going to talk about expectations for JJ McCarthy. They’re going to give their opinions on Carson Wentz and what happened on Thursday night as well. But I do want to remind you of the FanDuel question of the day. The Vikings and Lions line on FanDuel moved from 9.5 to 8.5 favorites for Detroit. I guess uh maybe that’s because of the news of JJ McCarthy starting this week. How many points do the Vikings have to score to hang with the Detroit Lions? So, how many points from JJ McCarthy would be necessary? Uh BM Dallas Turner sucks at coverage. Uh, I haven’t thought that he has adapted to that very well either. And this is where this is where we got to bring up why everyone being responsible because the thing that’s really surprised me about the Minnesota Vikings, the way they’ve handled things. So, I’ve defended a lot the timeline, the idea, the concept of this is when you start your win now window. It’s probably two or three years with the key players that you have. I I like the idea. It’s worked a lot of times and I can throw the examples at you for the hundth time, right? But we all know that. We know that it’s worked a lot for teams to have the rookie quarterback contract. It’s what we were looking for for, you know, many years with Kirk Cousins of, hey, this is how teams are winning in the NFL, so this is what you got to do, you know, etc., etc. Uh but there have been some moves that just have not been on the analytical side that have surprised me for a front office that is led by someone with an analytical background and Dallas Turner is one of them. Now, I wrote about the Dallas Turner move when it happened. And a lot of these things, what I like to try to do is instead of guessing what the outcome’s going to be, lay out the outcomes. Like here’s what could This is why we do pie charts. Like here’s how it could go, here’s how it might not go, right? And when you slide the chips to the middle of the table on a player like Dallas Turner, it is nothing but a fact that that player has to be great. that to justify the draft capital given up that player has to be great. And I’ve always said it’s unfair to Dallas himself, the person to say that. But from a analytical perspective, like he can only be that player. He can’t, you know, live with that hovering over his head all the time. They gave up X amount for you and so forth. But from a perspective of analyzing front office moves, that was a chips to the middle of the table. It’s time for us to win now. let’s get the perfect guy for Brian Flores scheme. Let’s go all in on this type of play. And in terms of your uh percentage of outcomes, the percentage chance that they were going to justify that draft pick was not super high, not in a bubble, not in a vacuum. Now, in the greater context of the defense, that’s where I thought, well, this might make sense. If you’ve got a lot of other pieces that are veterans, you’re spending in free agency, you’re hitting on a lot of guys, the final piece idea, it does make a lot of sense. But if the guy just becomes another player in the league as opposed to a star, which if you look at the history of pass rushers drafted past top 15, there’s a lot of just another guys. There’s a lot of Adafays around the league or uh what was the guy’s name? Joe Tryion. I mean, there’s like a lot of different guys who have been drafted in that back end. Is Chop Robinson has been somewhat good, maybe not a superstar. Like, there’s a lot of those because they’re usually drafted with some flaws that they have to go along with uh, you know, the the good parts of their game. So, that it’s not like the Vikings traded up to number one and picked Dallas Turner there and he was a Miles Garrett level prospect. He was always a prospect that was going to need work and that was dealing with shortcomings from a a girth perspective, but the amount that they gave up made it only justifiable if it was a a huge production from Dallas Turner. Now, he could still get there. There’s a lot of pass rushers, Trey Hendrickson, Melvin Ingram, who haven’t taken a step until their third or fourth year, so it does happen. And it’s a slow developing position, but like that’s another one of those moves where the same with Hargrave and the same with Allen. Like this one only works if either the whole defense is great and they are complimentary or if these guys are absolute like their peak for how much they paid them. Yeah, I mean peak Jayvon Hargrave is probably a $25 million player, but Jonathan Allen with that price, I mean, you need to be great. You can’t just be good. So, a lot of these things in terms of range of outcomes have clicked on the not so successful side of that and uh that’s that’s one of the reasons that they’re in the position that they are right now. Um so, let me give you uh actually I’ll I’ll give the FanDuel question of the day again a little later to uh Brian Murphy and Manny Hill. want to get those guys rolling here. And uh just say thanks everybody for watching along. And um you know, I I do feel for you guys that you get so excited about, you know, the national TV game. And boy, this franchise does know how to punch you in the face. So, as we get uh Brian Murphy going here, I do want to say a big thank you to all of you for tuning in, hanging around, and uh it’s funny because things can change really quickly to from this team feeling like all we’re talking about is what a disaster it is to possibly feeling much better about stuff as long as JJ McCarthy plays well against the Detroit Lions. So, uh we bring in Brian Murphy, Manny Hill. Uh Brian, good evening to you. How are you? I’m doing well. Good to be here. Manny, how we doing? Doing pretty good. Happy Monday football. All right. Well, you guys are doing a lot better than Carson Wentz, who was uh sent out to die on the battlefield on Thursday night by Kevin O’Connell and uh did exactly that, having surgery and out for today. So Murf, this uh particular subject feels like it’s up your alley to talk about um your thoughts on what happened on Thursday night and then the news today of Wentz getting surgery. Yeah, it felt like Cartson Wentz needed to be protected from himself and I don’t know if he had in a lot of allies in that. Um it’s it’s it’s a bit um unsettling how it’s played out. I’m not saying uh you know the Vikings shoved him out there to die in place of Max Brosmer, but it really doesn’t look good today because he we could clearly tell Thursday night that he had a contraption on his shoulder that looked a lot more problematic than it did uh previously against Philadelphia. and just his, you know, her reactions every time he was in the pocket, uh, getting hit, falling on it hard, coming to the sidelines, and, and I’m trying to kind of look back, you know, I kind of gave up on Thursday night’s game so early because it was what it was. And I didn’t really even look into how Kevin Oonnell reacted to, you know, Wentz and his performance and his health. And then the news comes out today that, you know, he’s having season ending surgery, which tells, you know, and then all the details coming out that he had a torn labroom, he had a dislocated shoulder, which begs the question, what was he doing on the field in the first place? Not just for his health, which by the way matters. Just because he’s a 32year-old refugee, doesn’t make him chum to throw in the water for the sharks. And also, uh, could Max Brosmer have done something better than Carson Wentz given the opportunity given WZ’s health, given what we had already seen from Wentz, given what we know about Wentz? It raises a lot of more questions that really we don’t need to be dealing with right now because we’re ready to just hand it over to McCarthy anyway. But it’s kind of an ugly sloppy handover that you know you just Carson Wentz was never going to say take me out coach I’m done when he knows this might have been the last NFL game he’s playing. Uh so it’s not his decision and I just wonder if he was failed or uh he failed himself. It just it’s just a a messy ending to a stop gap option that didn’t pan out anyway. Your thoughts, Manny? Uh yeah, I mean I I did unfortunately finish the entire game on Thursday. Um had nothing else better to do really that night. Um, same. Although I pro I I pro I probably could have watched some Law and Order SVU or something. I don’t know. Um, but anyway, uh, yeah, it it was it was just ugly and it was kind of disheartening to watch a a guy out there who clearly wasn’t physically right out there just wincing in pain. I mean, he got hit a lot. He got sacked five times. There was one where he he was hit and he landed directly on that left shoulder, which is the injured shoulder, and it just looked it looked awful. And to to Murf’s point, you just have to kind of wonder what what the operation was in terms of putting Carson Wentz out there. I understand starting him because if JJ McCarthy is not fully 100%, you don’t want to throw him out in that situation and preparation on a short week makes things complicated for him. Um, so I understand putting Carson Wentz out there because you’re thinking he gives you the best chance to win, but after you watch him out there perform and you watch him wse in pain and it’s just like what what are we doing here? does he is he really giving us the best chance to win when he’s not physically right and even though it’s not his throwing shoulder it’s still it’s still a limb like it’s still his his arm that that that’s that’s painful even if you’re not using that arm to throw um and it’s going to impact how you’re able to throw the football because you’re dealing with that pain and so you do have to kind of wonder in hindsight now after a 37-10 beatd down You have to wonder at at what point should Carson Wentz have really been removed from that game just to put Max Bro Max Bros in just to see if he can give you a better chance. Obviously Max doesn’t have a lot of experience playing in the NFL either. Um but you just have to wonder under that circumstance if Brosmer just being a healthier body would have given you a better chance to compete and maybe make things interesting. But yeah, I I would say it was just really kind of disheartening to see first of all to see the performance overall by the team, but then to also see Carson Wentz out there really when he probably shouldn’t have been. So there two different discussions kind of in in one of hey maybe early in the game he looked so bad and so injured that you should have just gone to Bromer to give yourself a better chance to even move the football. Now, that I actually do buy the explanation from Kevin Oonnell of look, I don’t really want a rookie going out there with those tackles, the way they’re getting killed. Hey, news flash, Khil Mack, still a sick NFL player, uh, who is back to full health himself and dominating this football game. Their other guy is the second or third best at QB pressures of the NFL. Like, he, you know, they’ve got some guys up there and the Vikings can’t block them. Okay. Right. I get that. couldn’t prepare Max Brosmer to start in two days where they just had walkthroughs. This is a really tough spot. But when you get to the end of the game and it’s 3110 and you send him out for two more drives, to me that’s where it’s indefensible where you cannot explain to me what you thought was going to happen in those two drives. And they didn’t just call run plays. Now, if they had done that to protect Carson and they just said, “Hey, so we’re just gonna run screens and we’re just gonna swing past to Aaron Jones and put Xavier Scott in the game and get him a few catches or something.” Okay, that’s fine. They were throwing down field still to Justin Jefferson down uh 31-10. And you look at those last two drives, of course, they went horribly and he took more hits and you go, “Okay, now that’s where the common sense element, you get lost in the game and lose what’s right in front of you. What’s happening to your quarterback and you end up making it just a miserable, miserable night at 24 to 10. I understand still having him in because maybe something crazy happens. It’s the Chargers. Crazier things have happened to the Chargers than blowing a 14-point lead. Once it gets to 3110 and Jeff Okuda gets smoked down the sideline by Led Maci, that’s when the quarterback should come out of that football game. Uh, but let’s uh why don’t we shift to a little bit less of a heavy subject because I’ve been hammering home with a sledgehammer on that subject for about an hour. Uh, so let’s get to Hey, JJ McCarthy starting this week. And you know, I really thought that was going to be all tonight. Like, hey guys, what’s in the past is in the past. JJ McCarthy is starting. It’s a hard reset to the season and hey, you’re probably not making the playoffs, but at least it’ll be interesting. So, let’s try to do that anyway. Uh, the FanDuel question of the day today is how many points JJ McCarthy has to score in order for the Vikings to hang with the Detroit Lions. The move uh the line moved today on FanDuel from 9.5 to 8.5. So, we can begin there with expectations in the very short term into just this game. JJ McCarthy returns to play football again. Why don’t we start there, uh, Murf, with expectations for JJ McCarthy versus the Detroit Lions? Can he stay on the field more than 15 minutes? I mean, let’s just start there and work our way up. And I’m not trying to be flippant here. I mean, I’m trying to be obvious. I mean, there’s been 25 Viking, I believe, 24 or 25 Vikings games played since J.J. McCarthy was drafted. He’s been on the sideline for two of them. He’s been active for two of them. So, what are we what are we looking for? We’re looking for development. We’re looking for him being able to complete a game. We’re looking for him to be able to be mobile. We’re looking for him to be able to connect with his receivers. We’re looking for him to be able to figure out if this offensive line is as troubled and as injury riddled and as inconsistent as it has been, what’s going to be the best uh opportunity for me to succeed? What’s going to be the best opportunity for the team to succeed? And what’s going to be best for his development? I’m not sure all of those things necessarily align. So for him, I want him to uh look less overwhelmed uh series to series, possession pos to possession, but also, you know, he’s going up against arguably the best team in the NFC North, arguably one of the best teams in the NFC, perhaps the top two, three team in the NFL on the road. So there’s really no more protection here. There’s no more what can we do for him. It’s what can JJ actually do. So, I’m actually really curious to see how he’s going to respond to being sidelined for 6 weeks, trying to build off of a very positive week one performance that included a nice comeback, but then also try to pivot away from what we saw from the other seven quarters, which was really not NFL quarterback play. And I really think that’s the laser focus. Vikings fans, the front office, the coaching staff really needs to take stock of is who is he? What is he going to be able to do? And what is he showing he’s able to do on a week-toeek basis? We haven’t had enough of that consistently over the last 18 months. So, that to me is the primary focus. And what he’s expected to do is uh learn and accumulate and absorb and it may end up finishing with a seven and 10, eight and nine record that ultimately isn’t where they wanted to be, but is it more but more importantly, what does McCarthy look like through the process? Yeah, Murf, when you say, you know, stay on the field, I know a little bit of tongue and cheek there as you’re right. uh 25 games for Bo Knicks and two for JJ McCarthy so far uh because of injury. But I think stay on the field in terms of have some drives uh when we are talking about this defense and it’s right for folks to be ripping apart all the defensive moves. Why did they sign this guy? Why did they draft this guy? Why did they extend that guy? But the reality is when you have some of the worst quarterback play in the NFL throughout your season, it is hard to be a very good defense. And we see this. How about, hey, those Cleveland Browns with the Have you seen the roster of the Cleveland Browns defense? They One guy gets five sacks yesterday and they give up 30 something. Poor guy. Why do you think that is? Because Dylan Gabriel is terrible and their offense is terrible. So, I think that the Cleveland Browns defense with a good offense is probably really nasty. Um, there’s a lot that’s dictated through that. So, stay on the field. I mean, that’s one thing that they have not been able to do. They’re among the worst teams in the NFL in terms of plays per drive and time of possession. Put some drives together and let that even be a start. I I don’t think we need to begin with JJ McCarthy has to be magical and turn the season around. How about we just begin with completions, moving the chains? I’m watching Jordan Love last night. Tight end underneath, little quick pass to the receiver who scoots along the sideline for 10 yards. Let’s just begin with that and then work our way up to something that looks more like franchise quarterback level play. You agree, Manny? 100%. And I think, you know, sustaining drives, converting third downs, getting off to a good start, I think is going to be really important because outside of the Cincinnati Bengals game, we haven’t really seen this offense get off to a good start and go down the field and score a touchdown and and and play with a lead. This team has not gotten a chance to play with a lead and that has impacted how the defense has been able to perform. So, it’s going to be important to do that. But also, just from a from a health standpoint with JJ McCarthy, too, can Kevin Oonnell and this offensive staff find ways to protect McCarthy in a way where he’s not getting hit a lot. And, you know, he’s he’s already shown a a you know, a little bit that he can get banged up a little bit. He had the the knee injury last year and then the ankle injury this year and he’s taken a lot of sacks. The Vikings as a as an offense have taken a lot of sacks. I was looking it up when you when you guys were talking about uh Bo Nicks. Bo Knicks has played eight games. You know how many times he’s been sacked? Eight times. Wow. Wow. Eight times. Let me follow your a game. Yeah. Let me follow your stat with the stat. The Vikings are the seventh most sacked team since KOC took over, which all the other teams are horrible. All the other teams have horrible quarterbacks. 28 times this year the Vikings have taken 28 sacks this year. 19 for Wentz and nine for McCarthy. Nine for McCarthy in two games. Like two games. Um so that’s you know and and look some of that is McCarthy or Wentz holding on to the ball a little bit too long at times and trying to move around and extend plays. But you know Bo Nicks has a little bit of that to it to to his game too where he can get out in the pocket and extend plays and make things happen too. and he’s been able to avoid that stuff happening. Um, so I think that’s going to be important, too. Can KOC put together he’s I mean, obviously he’s not going to overhaul and throw out his entire offensive scheme. It just that’s just ludicrous to even think that anybody can do that. But can they sprinkle in, like you said, caller, you know, some some easy throws, easy quick throws for JJ McCarthy to make to kind of help him convert third downs, sustain drives, maintain possession, get off to a good start, and that’s going to bode well for the offense to be able to put points on the board. It’s going to help the defense because they’re not playing from behind. And if anything, it’s going to keep JJ McCarthy upright and not allow him to get hit a lot. and that will then in turn keep him very uh keep him as healthy as possible. So overall, I understand why Kevin Oonnell would design his philosophy for JJ McCarthy to have a lot of intermediate passing. Like when you look at JJ McCarthy, and I know it’s through two games, but he actually all of his best throws are all successful where he could kind of grip it and rip it 15 to 20 yards. You think about the ones in Atlanta is one good drive in that game where he hits two balls along the sideline that are 15 20 yards down the field. One to the one to Naylor where he can really step in and throw it. The touchdown in Chicago across the middle, the play action in Chicago with uh Jefferson coming back to the ball. They’re all in that same area. That’s where he’s clearly most comfortable because I think that’s where he can really just go and like put every ounce of his body into the throw and and that’s what he’s been doing for his entire life where little quick game is I got to pitter patter my feet the right way. I got to put some touch on it. Like you see Rogers in quick game last night at times just looking magical just like here’s a little slant just right into your hands. perfect dead accuracy, great feet, great, you know, everything. That’s hard to do for McCarthy. Um, so I think that the answer of, hey, just run the quick stuff all the time is not as simple uh as people make it sound. But the the thing that I noticed yesterday, Murf, from watching Green Bay and Houston specifically, two teams that have generally been rooted in Shanahan systems. uh Demo Ryan, who I know is a defensive coach, but he comes from the Shanahan and Kubak tree, that famous coaching staff for the Houston Texans, where our friend Sage Rosenfells was a quarterback on that team and and Gary developed all these young coaches and stuff. They were running a lot of bootlegs, a lot of dumps to the tight end, a lot of stuff like that. and then looking down the field for some shots. Uh Murf, I I think sometimes this team makes it sound like it is freaking impossible to do some of this stuff. And that’s what that’s what I want to see. Not just as you said, McCarthy’s success, but also it is becoming more and more of a swell of all right, you’re the quarterback whisperer when you’ve got Cousins and Darnold, guys who’ve been in the league for a long time. How about you just yell as opposed to whispering? I just just yell the bootlegs. Like I I think that it’s a major storyline of how he will approach this schematically. He just hasn’t had time. Uh again, he just we just haven’t had enough of McCarthy on the field to really we’ve had glimpses. we can kind of surmise what might be successful for him, but because it’s been so limited and because the games that he’s played, the Vikings have fallen behind quickly, uh, which eliminates the run game, which puts more pressure on him to convert their downs and sustain drives when maybe it would have been nice if the defense could have gotten some three and outs and given them a little bit of breathing space. I mean, it’s always an eb and flow between the offense and defense, right? who’s on the field more, who’s keeping the opponent on the field more, who’s making it more difficult. It’s always going to be that tension, but it feels like the Vikings have been losing that no matter whose quarterback. And also it it it just we’ve talked ad nauseium about what McCarthy might be successful at or what he might be able to do or what he could do or what this particular uh plan on this particular drive at this particular moment in the game he might be able he has to be out there to do it and we just haven’t had enough of that which has been so frustrating. And we’ve als let’s it should also be noted that Michael Pennix and Bo Knicks and Drake May and these guys have all had all of the practice reps, all of the preseason work, all of the game starts. They are so far ahead of him right now in all of that. It ne it just feels like we’re always at the cusp of what can JJ McCarthy do compared to what has he already done and we just have very little to go on that. So it has to happen. He has to be on the field. He can’t be protected from everything. He can’t be shielded from everything. He has to go through the growing pains that all young quarterbacks do. Whether that results in a seven and 10 record, an 89 record, a nine and eight record, or maybe miraculously a 10 10 and seven record, and he wins some big games and has big moments, and he gets a playoff test. Kind of like Jaden Daniels did last year. Everybody thought, well, let him go to Detroit and he’ll get his seasoning. Well, not only that, he got an upset win. So, all of that has happened while JJ has basically been rehabbing. So, again, the eternal question is what can he do based on what we know he can do? We need to know all of that. Now, was that uh your collar ringing there uh Murf in the background or is that uh the little poochie there? Uh uh I just muted myself. Yeah, that was my dog escaping. My daughter is taking him away. Oh, okay. But he might have wanted to weigh in, too. and say rough rough. Yes. Get him on the field. Well, he’s got that dog in him. Uh or Manny, you know, a lot of the discussion after this game has kind of always gone back to, you know, Okonnell wants to throw down the field, Okonnell play calling, stuff like that. And this is where I don’t want to I don’t want to go there with Okonnell until I see him with JJ McCarthy actually for a sample size of games beyond two. Uh because you could say what great lateg game play calling against the Bears and you’d be absolutely right. I mean it was an incredible fourth quarter for them and you could say what a terrible scheme against Atlanta because well it didn’t work and that’s how we do it which is we wait for the results and then we say well you must have screwed everything up uh if the results weren’t what we wanted them to be. But where where do you stand on on that entire discussion? because for me, I just need to see it. And they’ve had way too much success with other veteran quarterbacks uh that have supposed to be their starters that when you’re talking about, well, you couldn’t adjust to Dobs, you couldn’t adjust to Wentz, it’s like, well, what are those guys career records? Like, who’s winning with those guys? I think Josh Dobs is maybe three and 12 as a starter in his career. I mean, that’s not, you know, and you give him one more credit for the one in Atlanta. Like, that’s not really going to tell us a whole heck of a lot. Uh, I think that it is a little bit of a prove it though here going forward, not all just in this one game, but for O’Connell, like, do you need a veteran quarterback to run this thing? And I I’ll just throw one more stat at you before you answer on this. In 2022, Kurt Cousins ranked ninth in terms of snap to release time. So, how quickly he got rid of the football. Last year, Darnold was one of the lowest because he hung on to the ball forever and waited to get destroyed before throwing it 30 yards downfield as his his style in Seattle and everywhere else he’s been. But I think that that shows that it’s not impossible in this offense to have someone get rid of the football in a timely fashion. Yeah. And I think that’s that’s part of it too when I was talking earlier about, you know, getting hit and and you know, taking sacks and, you know, some of that is long developing plays, you know, receivers running deep routes, intermediate to deep routes and things like that. But some of that is also falls on the quarterback just being able to make the right read in a timely fashion and know exactly where to go with the football. Um because there were numerous times where we saw, you know, JJ McCarthy in the Chicago and the Atlanta game where he had time in the pocket to throw and he was just holding on to the ball too long because he just wasn’t quite ready or hesitant to really just let that ball rip. I mean, he’s got the arm talent to be able to do it and make all the necessary throws. Um, but there were times where he just held on to the ball too long, a little bit too long, and he gets hit or he doesn’t throw the ball in time and it gets intercepted or um, you know, it gets it’s thrown behind the receiver, over the receiver, whatever. It’s a missed throw. He’s he’s got to be able to to kind of grow from that and develop that that skill. And that again, to Murf’s point, that’s just going to come with getting more experience. I mean, we have to remember JJ McCarthy is 22 years old and he has not played a lot of football in the last year and a half. So, really, this kid has just got to get out there and get as many reps as as possible. And yeah, like I said earlier, can Kevin Oonnell put him in positions to where he can have some easy success and build some confidence? that’s going to be a question and and you know interesting to see how that plays out. But also, I mean, this is also going to fall on the kid himself to, you know, shake some of the bad habits that that young quarterbacks tend to always have. I mean, we saw Drake May, who’s playing great right now for the Patriots. He showed some flaws when he was first starting last year. Now, part of that was, you know, the coaching situation in New England last year wasn’t nearly as good as it is now with Mike Rael. Um, but you know, part of this is just a young quarterback needing to get out there and play and learn on the job and show some growth and development, shake some of the bad habits. And that’s what’s going to be really fascinating to watch as we progress through the rest of this season. Wins and losses, whatever. You finish seven and 10, you finish seven and 10 at this point. But the growth and development of JJ McCarthy, him breaking some of those bad habits are going to be the most important thing to watch. There’s a point to be made there too, Manny, that you know, Murf, I think it was you maybe you’ve said or one of you two guys about like the the run game and getting the run game going and playing off of it. Uh what I would like to see is regard Murf was talking about how the score has impacted like how they’ve had to call plays and I what I’d like to see Kevin Oonnell do is call plays regardless of the score which is very uh just anti- what you do right like you’re down in the game and so you pass and you pass and you pass or you’re up in the game and you run you run and you run. Uh, but against Detroit, they might be down the whole game. Looking at Detroit and who they are and how quickly they score. Stay with the run. Build off of the run. And if it results in some slow drives and some, you know, drives where you have to punt or whatever, like that’s okay because everything now is about putting McCarthy in favorable situations. If you get down 14-3 with McCarthy in there and you say, you know what, throw us back into the game. and he attempts 47 passes like Carson Wentz against the Philadelphia Eagles and Jordan Mason runs four times. Is that doing anything to help JJ McCarthy succeed? And I I will give him credit O’Connell when they got back in the game against Chicago. It started with a couple big runs from Jordan Mason, but I’m not even talking about getting back in games. I don’t care. I truly do not care how many games they win the rest of the way. I know they do. I know the ownership does. I know the players do, but for the bigger picture of this franchise, it truly does not matter. What matters is putting McCarthy in situations where we can actually identify, can this guy play or not? And if he’s down 21-10 in the third quarter and he’s throwing and throwing, he’s getting hit, he’s getting crushed, and and they’re sending every blitz known to man. And I mean, how does this help? That doesn’t help at all. So, treat every situation like a neutral situation for him. even if you’re down, even if that goes against uh your urge to try to get your team back in the game if you’re struggling. And what made me think of that was the strip sack against Atlanta. So, they were still in the game. It might have been 14-6 or something and they get the ball back and it’s first and 10 and they go empty shotgun and it’s of course free runner strip sack and game is over. Like, why are you treating this like it’s Sam Darnold back there? And why why are you treating it like it’s Kirk Cousins back there? It’s not. And I’d like to see him treat it like it’s JJ McCarthy. So, how about you guys answer the uh the FanDuel question of the day while we’re having this discussion, which is uh the line move today on FanDuel from 9 and a half to eight and a half, giving the Vikings a lot more credit. Uh uh but uh how many points would they have to score to stay in this game is the question. So how many points does JJ McCarthy have to put up on offense to remain interesting late in the game? Murf, him and the offense personally or the team in general? Well, the I mean the offense Yeah, pick six would be nice, but you know 28 28 I I think if you’re not even at 28, the Lions are going to run you out of the building. And what you were uh discussing earlier is is fascinating because this is what we’ve been slowly talking about much of this season uh even before McCarthy which was hurt which is the the underlying tension between a roster that is what $300 million invested in and was retoled on the offensive and defensive lines to kind of create this fortress around your young quarterback. Well that’s already crumbled. So you’re already three and four. you kind of should know who you are. If there’s any sense that JJ’s gonna step in and bail you out of this mess, I mean, that’s all gravy. Maybe it does happen. Maybe he does get hot. Maybe the team galvanizes. Maybe, maybe, maybe. What you What you’re talking about, though, is absolutely correct. It is possession by possession, game by game, locker room deficit by locker room deficit. how he handles himself during the week, how he answers for his performances, how he answers for the team’s performance, that’s really all that matters going forward. And if that somehow produces a 10 and seven, nine and eight record, which seems unlikely at the end, great. If it’s seven and 10 and 8 and N, but you you feel like JJ McCarthy has the room, then that’s all you need. But the 33-year-old guy on the defensive line that just signed to come here who may be underperforming didn’t come here to help develop a young quarterback. So you have that underlying tension in the locker room, but it really is KOC’s responsibility right now. He’s not going to say it publicly, but it’s his responsibility because you have to imagine that his fate is going to be tied with McCarthy’s fate in one way or another. McCarthy’s career will likely outlast Okonnell’s. It could. Uh maybe it does. Maybe it doesn’t, but it’s I think Okonnell’s fate in Minnesota is going to be tied with tied to however McCarthy develops in what could be a loss season and how he develops going into next season when you actually know what you have. So, it really is the priority right now. And he’s never going to admit this and he shouldn’t, but you’re right. It’s what can JJ do? How can he get better? and what do we really have in him? And right now, wins and losses don’t necessarily matter with that. Circling back to the FanDuel question of the day, Manny, how many point how many points I am I supposed to end my answer? No, I I loved every second of that rant, but I also wanted to get Manny’s answer to the question. Uh I Yeah, I’m I’m kind of with Murf. I I think it’s going to take somewhere between 27 and 30 points, something like that, to really even have a chance to to compete in this game. This Lions offense is every bit as highpowered as it was a year ago and they have a completely different coordinator calling plays now, but they still have the same personnel. Still have the quarterback, still have the the running game. The offensive line isn’t quite as good as it was a year ago, but they still have the weapons on the perimeter that are dangerous. Um, and they still have the same head coach. So, they’re going to put up some points, especially considering how this Vikings defense has struggled in in recent weeks. Um, so for them to stay competitive in this, it’s going to take 28, you know, 28 to 31 points in a game. And, and I think it’s I think it’s possible, but it I don’t think it’s going to be falling down 24-3 and then th trying to get McCarthy to throw you back in the game. It’s going to take getting off to a good start so that you can, you know, run the football with some effectiveness. take some pressure off of McCarthy and then let him kind of settle in and and play within the play within the game plan. Um, I think that’s honestly their best chance. If they have kind of more of a balanced attack and they’re able to kind of stay in the game from start to finish, that’s really going to be their best chance to get that amount of points and and and have a chance, albeit, you know, slight, to uh to win this game at Ford Field. I will say when I pull this up that something popped into my mind and then I want to get back to a bigger picture point on McCarthy that Murf brought up. But when I see the Lions offensive line ranking fifth in run blocking, you do think to yourself that the offensive line coach is probably the second most important coach on the team outside of well obviously a head coach. So behind defensive coordinator, it’s probably offensive line coach. And uh that that does draw the question a little bit about offensive line coaching when you see a team who was supposed to fall apart when they lost some key players and is still top five in their ability to block for the run in the Detroit Lions. Guessing that they’re coached pretty well up front uh now this year that they’ve made up for those guys uh you know leaving. Maybe they believed in that all along and that’s why they let those guys or at least Kevin Zitler go. Um, obviously Frank Ragnau was a different reason. The the point that Murf uh was making about the uh tensions between offense and defense, that’s a very real thing that does happen. I’ve seen it happen before 2016. Uh those guys wanted to stay on the other side of the locker room from each other. Uh the offense and defense because the defense felt like it was good enough. The offense was falling apart, but their offensive coordinator quit. their offensive line all got banged up and they were like, “What are we supposed to do?” and all that sort of thing. Uh I do wonder about inside the locker room if McCarthy is not immediately a big upgrade from Wentz and if he’s not immediately getting the the football to move and uh is not accurate and and those things. if you do have people starting to ask that question about Sam Darnold, Rogers, all those things. Uh because locker rooms are not that different from water coolers. Everybody talks. Everybody’s got their families that talk. Everybody’s got social media. And there is a player and we have not wanted to go there and I have not wanted to go there. But there is a player who has put up with a lot in terms of quarterback changes and offenses that are always asking him to be the miracle man to get the most out of this quarterback to take this guy to another level to manage this young guy or whatever it might be. This guy who’s never played here before or is what was darnold 19 and 30 or something in his career and that’s number 18. And I I think that he is very relevant here. Now look, Jayvon Hargrave, sorry, man. I don’t care. He’s he seems like a nice guy. I shouldn’t use him for this, but like I don’t care about his opinions about the bigger picture. Like you came here, you’re getting your paycheck. Like just do your job, man. Like that’s not your thing to deal with. But number 18, he’s management. Justin Jefferson is management. When I asked Quacy at Alafensa this in 2023 about whether they loop him into decisions, and he said yes. Uh so he is part of the decision-making process with everything and where you think about tension and you think about how this thing can feel as it goes forward. Uh there needs to be proof that this can work or Justin Jefferson I think is going to be really frustrated because he has been the good soldier this entire time and and Murf I I couldn’t be more impressed with the way I talked to Justin last week about you know me and a couple other reporters about you know just the quarterback changes how tough it’s been and how he’s worked through it and he never has a bad word to say about it but you wouldn’t blame him if you get to the end of this and Sam Darnold’s playing in January and he’s not going what what’s the deal here So, it’s very uh noticeable how quick in the NFL or college football as we’ve seen that these things that feel so strong and so sound three months into something can feel uh really on rocky ground. Yeah. I mean, Justin Jefferson could throw a dump a can of gasoline on this. No question if he did. Just even with a side, you know, the cameras are on them. They’re looking for things on the sideline. It almost feels like this is a um you know a fat complee and I and I and I don’t I haven’t been around Jefferson enough to know everything I’ve read and seen about what you guys report out of him in the locker room. His comments made I mean his is punking his coach the other day was pretty or last week was pretty funny. I mean, he seems to get it in terms or his GM. Uh, he seems to get it. What being the number one receiver on a team arguably in the NFL who’s gotten his payday, who obviously has had a mixed bag of people throwing him the ball over the years. It almost feels like there’s this drum beat of when is he going to blow? And if he does blow, of course he’s going to be justified in blowing. Well, I don’t know if we have to necessarily root for that or or anticipate it coming. If anything, we’ve seen he is mature. He’s he’s measured and he gets it in the big picture. So, I’m not rooting for a blowup, even though it would be understandable and cathartic for a lot of people. I don’t think it would be beneficial in the in the bigger picture because at the end of the day, what’s he going to say that we already don’t know? Uh, and if he’s really putting his name behind, this has been a disaster. I might not be happy anymore. Certainly, that’s news. But if he really truly doesn’t feel that way, it’s probably not worth going there. And the fact that he hasn’t already, I would hope would would indicate that it wouldn’t get that way. All of that being said, though, you’re right. It just feels like this is something ready to blow. And not just with Jefferson, but with a veteran locker room. And you know, I want to hear Kevin O’Connell talk a little bit more about the Wentz management and all that, but he got really defensive last week when he was asked about uh McCarthy’s timeline again. And and and I’m not sure he’s got a lot of standing right now to be defensive. I mean, he’s gotten, you know, he’s a coach of the year perennial candidate, has won it already. He’s been solid with the media. The fans adore him. He’s gotten his extension. Um, but there are some questions that need to be asked and there’s some scrutiny that needs to be put on him in terms of the transparency or lack thereof that’s been coming out and I’m not sure he’s got a lot of wiggle room for um defensiveness and uh but if if Justin Jefferson ends up kind of straying from that then that comes back to the head coach too which is you know what are you doing right now to kind of keep everything together. So, uh, I’d love to see this is going to be a fascinating 10 weeks for a variety of reasons, most of which are what does it mean for McCarthy, but what it means for the locker room, watching maybe O’Connell manage an adverse end to this season that had so such high expectations, knowing he still doesn’t have a playoff win, he’s going to be scrutinized as well. And I think his actions and words are going to speak a lot louder over these next 10 weeks because of that. Well, and that’s the main point here, right? Is that everything can look so much different in 10 weeks if JJ McCarthy even wins five or six of these games and then it will settle so much. Uh, and I’m working on an article for tomorrow about how, hey, like, you know, we talked about bringing back Darnold is not a bad idea, but what can we really compare to yet? Like, we need this sample to compare before we could start saying the organization screwed up. They should have brought back this guy. They should have signed that guy, which Rogers didn’t make me think last night that the Vikings would be any different with him or a lot different with him. They’d probably be a mediocre team. Uh, but let me uh shift subjects on you, Manny, right now on FanDuel. The Super Bowl odds, Kansas City number one naturally with Patrick Mahomes on their football team. Number two and three, the Detroit Lions at plus 700 and the Green Bay Packers at plus750. where how do you look at what the Lions and Packers have done building their teams to the point where they are top true elite Super Bowl contenders and compare that to where the Vikings are not just in this three and four start that’s been just such a disaster for health and everything else and not getting to play your quarterback but even timelinewise like this was the year where it looked like the Vikings were supposed to compete with those teams and they’re not even remotely close. And if JJ McCarthy was playing, I have a tough time thinking that it would be different because of how poor the defense has been. And these two teams built very differently than the Vikings where the Vikings went rookie quarterback contract, big spending, where these teams went reliable quarterback, big money, and then draft, draft, draft, draft, draft with a million draft picks around them. and it seems to have worked and then of course both made big moves when it was called upon. What do you make of how the Packers and Lions have really solidified themselves as true Super Bowl contenders almost halfway through this season? I think what it shows is that if you have good to elite level quarterback play and you do really well in the draft and you make enough free agent signings that you know can supplement draft picks that you maybe swing and miss on, then you’re going to be in in pretty good shape. And I I think we’ve seen teams, you know, build themselves into contenders in a lot of different ways. And, you know, building through the rookie quarterback contract and and signing veteran players because you have so much cap space. We’ve seen that work. We’ve seen teams have success and be, you know, contenders when they follow that model. But I think in the case of the Detroit Lions, we’ve also seen a team that moved on from their franchise quarterback and got another, you know, sort of fringe franchise quarterback. And then, you know, he sort of turned himself into a franchise quarterback. And, you know, Matthew Stafford was drafted number one overall by Detroit. Jared Goff was drafted number one overall as well by the Los Angeles Rams. And so, um, the physical talent was there for Jared Goff. It just took him a little bit longer. But when things started to click for Jared Goff, that that was almost kind of a cheat code for the Lions because I remember when they made that trade, I was thinking, “Oh, Jared Goff is, you know, he’s been kicked out of Los Angeles. Shawn McVey didn’t want him anymore. He’s going to go to Detroit. The Lions are bad and they’re going to have a bad season, and then he’s going to be kind of the bridge guy, and they’re going to draft another guy and build around that guy. But then Goff went in there and he played really well and Dan Campbell was like, “No, this is my guy. This is going to be my guy here.” Um, and it it worked out for them. And then that allowed them because Jared Goff was playing so well, it allowed them to be able to, you know, sort of build around him and they hit on some draft picks. Um, they made some some key free agent signings that weren’t big splash signings, but they worked out for them. um and they’ve turned themselves into, you know, perennial contenders. Now, the Packers, little bit of a different path, but somewhat similar. They traded away their longtime franchise quarterback. They and they’ve been kind of building around Jordan Love and they’ve done a nice job, too. And they have a really good head coach, I think. Um, and they they’ve been able to just make enough moves to put themselves in in a position and then they made the big splash play with trading for Micah Parsons that, you know, maybe can take an already good defense and sort of put them over the top and make them a real championship level defense. the Packers. I’m still kind of curious to see how the season will go for them because we’ve seen Jordan Love look great at times and then there’s other times where you’re like, h I don’t know, you know. Um whereas golf has been much more consistent for Detroit and I think it’s really helped them. So, the Packers, I’m still kind of hesitant to see, you know, how things sort of play out for them, but right now with the way they played last night in Pittsburgh, um that offense seems to be humming right now and they’ve got enough on defense, I think, to to be able to give them a chance to to go on a run. And a lot of times, all you need is for Jordan Love to just get hot and and that then they can go on a roll. So, the Lions and and Packers have both sort of built this built their teams differently from what the Vikings have done, but I’m not convinced that what, you know, the way the Vikings have done it is the wrong approach. I think it’s just the moves that they’ve made, particularly this this past offseason, just hasn’t worked out the way that they planned. Well, there really is two ways to do it. And one is to tank and draft a bunch of guys around a good quarterback, which is what both of those I mean the the Packers never tanked, but they did have some years that were not as good and they’ve had to draft a draft a draft and then make a big move with a draft pick to get Parsons, whereas Detroit legitimately tanked and they got rid of everything they could. They got as many draft picks as they possibly could. And it really is funny that they got draft capital in that deal for Jared Goff. So, not only did they get a franchise quarterback, but also draft capital to work with. I agree with you, though. I don’t think the Vikings route is wrong. Uh, and I also don’t think that they can change it. Like, they can’t look at Detroit and Green Bay and go, you know what? Actually, here’s what we’re going to do instead as they go forward. Murf, I think that they have to stay this course of spending around JJ McCarthy. when you think they do have a lot of assets on the offensive side to give him. So, defense is going to be easier to patchwork and fix. And if it keeps going this way, it’s going to be a change in scheme and defensive coordinator. I promise that they’re not going to continue to go this way where they get smoked by every single good quarterback they play. Uh if that continues to be the case, and they do play a lot of good quarterbacks here going forward. So, Flores ability truly to adapt is going to be shown in these coming weeks. Uh, but I don’t think that they can pivot. Uh, for me, Murf, this is what it is and you’re either going to catch up or you’re going to be left in Bears land, which is perpetually behind other teams and the NFC North. And it does all come back to number nine. But it also comes back to how you find your way out of some of these players that you failed on and into different players from alternate sources. Because it’s not like next year they have a million draft picks that they could just take and develop either. No. And it depends on where they end up obviously where their their positioning is going to be. I mean what what strikes me mo you know a couple years ago they they were able to get the top 10 pick because they they had the Cousins injury and the the quarterback carousel that kind of put him in that that position. And I know they made some moves to upgrade their their draft capital as well but they had that cushion because 2023 was a failure in a way. There’s no way you can pivot at this point. The only way you do, I think, is if McCarthy comes out in these 10 games and really just shows that he is not ready yet. And if he isn’t yet because of what’s collapsing around him or because he hasn’t been able to reach his ceiling, then that’s where you have to take stock in are we prepared to step on the gas and keep going forward with him, which I really think they have to do. Or are they in a mode where well, we may have to bring in an older guy and mentor him or at least give him a give him a competition. Maybe that’ll be the story line in camp. We liked a lot of what we saw in JJ, but we’re not quite sure yet. Maybe we would bring in an arm and see what he can do as opposed to always feathering the nest for him to to succeed. Maybe he needs to be pushed in that way. But what’s different about, you know, the Lions, I mean, the Lions were tanking for 50 years arguably, and they were able to park, the Packers were able to park Jordan Love behind Aaron Rodgers just like they were able to park Aaron Rogers behind Brett Bar. McCarthy hasn’t had that opportunity. Yes, he was slightly parked behind Sam Darnold, but Sam Darnold was busy rediscovering himself. I’m not sure how much mentoring he was doing while McCarthy was rehabbing. Anyway, Love got to learn. Rogers got to learn in the cradle of a Hall of Famer. So, those are different scenarios. And the Packers are still a young team. I I think I have read that they’re still the youngest team in the in the league. So, they’re still learning and growing. Love is lo learning and growing. You know, they had a big win against Dallas in the playoffs, then he lost to Philadelphia. But I I feel like they are positioned on much more of a long-term trajectory. The the Lions are in win now mode with an aging golf and a roster that’s been positioned to cash in. Now, the Vikings are still trying to figure out if McCarthy is that long-term solution. I believe they’re on the right track. They put all their cards and their chips in the middle on McCarthy, general manager on down. So, they kind of have to stick with that warts and all. What is going to be interesting though is what is he going to look like thrust into this three and four team where expectations are sky high for him, maybe not so much for the season. And how is that going to how are we going to all measure that out at the end when we’re judging McCarthy, the offense, the defense, the head coach, and the general manager? How much of McCarthy How much is McCarthy going to be able to help his head coach and his management uh buy some more time? And how much is he going to inject panic in whether or not they made the right decision? That’s what we need to see. Uh, I think about catching up to these two teams who know what they have at quarterback and how hard that is and how much less hard it will feel if you walk out of this season knowing you’ve got a quarterback. Because when you look at teams that have even made some mistakes with their money that that’s been spent, even the New England Patriots, they signed free agents in the past that completely blew up on them. And because of Drake May, they were able to move out the old, bring in the new, and all of a sudden they’re a completely different team. Uh the Vikings will be able to do the same if they know he is their guy. If they’re still asking that question by the end of the year, then the advantage is so much in the hands of Detroit, at least for another one or two years, will they kick the can down the road and extend as much of that uh roster as they possibly can? And then, you know, Green Bay, as you said, I mean, they have the foundation to be good for years to come. And Mike Parsons, thank you, Jerry Jones, is in his prime and is unstoppable. That makes them just a baseline of a good defense to begin with, even if they’re not perfect uh on the back end. All right, last question for you guys. Uh let’s try to make it a fun one. Uh here on FanDuel, the favorite for MVP is Patrick Mahomes because we just live in a flat circle and every year forever, it’s got to be Tom Brady and then Patrick Mahomes after him. But uh after that, Drake May plus 400. That’s an interesting one. Josh Allen has emerged at plus 400. Those are by far the three favorites. The dark horse for MVP, Jonathan Taylor is at plus 200. That does not happen very often. Not in many, many years. Uh, Manny, who’s uh who do you like for an MVP pick? See, I I I’m glad you brought up Jonathan Taylor because that that was the guy that if I had a vote right now, I would probably go with Jonathan Taylor because he’s been so good. And, you know, Daniel Jones has played well for the Colts and I think they have a a much better roster than maybe they were given credit for going into this season. Um, but Jonathan Taylor has really been the driving force for that team to have the kind of success that they’ve that they’ve had. He’s been great for Daniel Jones. He’s been great for that defense. His ability to run the ball, sustain drives, has taken a lot of pressure off of that defense. It’s taken a lot of pressure off the quarterback, and it’s allowed them to really do almost anything that they want and win in in multiple type types of ways. And so for me, it’s Jonathan Taylor. I know it’s, you know, the MVP is typically a quarterback’s award. Um, Mahomes is always going to be in the in the in the conversation. Josh Allen’s always going to be in the conversation. I think if if Lamar had been healthy and the Ravens had been better as a team, he would always be in that conversation as well. Drake May’s playing great. Um, but I for me it’s it’s Jonathan Taylor, man. He’s just been he’s been fantastic for the Colts. Or the MVP of Murf’s Heart is a Detroit native, Jonathan Taylor Thomas is who he has is home improvement joke. No. Yeah. No, I never liked that show anyway. So, okay. Well, that was one of my favorites growing up as a 10-year-old. So, yeah. You know, Tim Allen’s from Detroit, yada yada. I think it’s overrated. Oh, wow. All right. Hostility. Harsh words about Home Improvement, a show that ended in 1997. Uh, okay. Hey, you injected it here. Anyway, MV MVP. Um, I love everything that John that Taylor is doing, but I you know what is Adrien Peterson the last running back to win MVP? I mean, it’s going to be a hard hard thing to do if if Saquon Barkley couldn’t win it last year with what he did with Philadelphia winning a Super Bowl. I It’s going to be hard. He is making Daniel Jones look so much better though, taking so much pressure off him. Um, you know, the usual suspects, Mahomes, Allen, uh, you know, like you said, Jackson, if he was healthy, I really like Baker Mayfield mainly because he’s got Tampa at six and two. If Tampa finishes, you know, 12 and five, 11 and four, wins the NFC South, gets some home games, it’s going to be because of what Mayfield has really done for that team and that offense. And it’s really not only resurrecting his career, but a franchise that really just hasn’t had a lot of quality. I mean, they had Tom Brady for a moment, but has not had a lot of quality quarterback play over the last several years. And for him to kind of be the NFL’s, you know, marketing golden goldenchild and and flame out in in Cleveland where, you know, quarterbacks go to die, where, you know, any good player goes to die, I guess. to see him kind of work his way back in Darnold-like fashion, kind of doing the grunt work, figuring out who he is, figuring out what it takes to succeed in the league, and the way he’s able to kind of help Tampa win in a variety of different ways with his legs and his arm and do it sort of from a a humbled position kind of that I I would like to see him perhaps put the cherry on top of a redemption season with an MVP uh award. But, you know, I really do like Josh Allen, too, just because of what he’s gone through and who the Bills are. So, I know the it’s all voted on during the regular season, but to me, if Allen can finally bring that Super Bowl to Buffalo, he’s the most valuable player on the planet, let alone the most valuable player on the league in the league. The MVP speech from Baker Mayfield would be one uh that might break the entire internet. So, uh, Brian Murphy, Manny Hill, we do this every Monday with, uh, the trio here breaking everything down and the vibe may be quite a bit different by this time next week. Or it might sound very similar to what it did tonight. I guess we’ll find out and we’ll follow along. So, thanks for your time, Murf. Thank you for your time, uh, Manny. And we will see you, Manny, on Thursday night to pick the schedule, which should be maybe the lowest win total we’ve ever seen since we started winning. are picking the schedule with you and uh Murf, we’ll see you on Monday. Also, Murf wrote a column for the newsletter purpleinsider. Football. Make sure you go check that out and we will catch you guys all very later. Well, a lot to come this week. By the way, Jeremiah Sles going to give us a players perspective on everything that’s going on. Going to have Cody Alexander, defensive guru, who writes the match quarters newsletter, breakdown what’s going on with the defense. I do have for all of you draft nuts, Chris Trapaso coming on to analyze why the Vikings haven’t succeeded in the draft. So, off we go into the future. Uh, thanks guys. Thanks everybody and we’ll see you next time. Football. Football. All right.
Matthew Coller talks about Carson Wentz having to undergo surgery and then talks with Brian Murphy and Manny Hill about expectations for JJ McCarthy the rest of the way.
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21 comments
The Head Coach Needs to Be Fired for The way He handled the Carson Wentz situation.
35
Someone needs to teach you how to decorate a wall! 😮
50 pts because our defense stinks !
I have lost confidence in kOC….gone
KOC should be ashamed of his QB management. What a tool. Wentz should sue him.
Perfect take Mr. Coller… KOC's excuse of not exposing Brosmer was inexcusable!… he made the team and is a professional athlete!… so protect Brosmer and not Wentz!… you are exactly right!… the offense could've easily been dumbed down to protect Brosmer til the end of the game… hand offs… quick passes… throw aways if nothings there!… I'm losing my faith in KOC for sure!
Why are DET and GB 700/750 odds, in my unprofessional option because they are able to draft quality players at all levels. Day 1, Day 2 & Day 3. And all levels play immediately and compitently. Meanwhile Vikings like to draft players that need TIME to develop at all levels and in most cases NEVER develop. In short,in my professional opinion, the Vikes draft like azz and need to fire/replace someone or everyone evolved with the Vikings draft process.
KOC is an absolute fraud who will never win anything in this league.
It was clear by the 3rd quarter that the Vikings were going to lose the game. I thought KOC should've put Brosmer in at that time as well. Kudo to Wentz for guts, but it was a failure on KOC for not pulling him. Now the QB situation is even worse. Now you basically have 2 rookies to salvage a already losing season. Looks like this season is over as they cannot compete.
Wentz fought harder for the Vikings than the Vikings did in that game. KOC is a loser for keeping him in the game.
The run game has been good with mason. Jones is washed as a runner
Who knows what was said between KOC and Wentz, who knows what Wentz asked for. I think we all understand that Carson Wentz career playing in the NFL is likely over and I think he knows his phone isn't ringing anytime soon that's a tuff thing for a baller to have to face. If Wentz did appeal to KOC to let him try and go out on his shield maybe just maybe KOC did this guy a solid as well as protected the rookie QB. I know if it was me and it was my last shot and I knew I was hurt and getting surgery I'd had begged to stay in that game and go out like a warrior I wouldn't just let anyone to take that away from me.
Isn’t it true you have to protect a player from himself. I just think with how KOC has handled JJ’s injury, how he basically has said he needs to be ready to play, being fully healed. He’s basically preached player health and safety. Why would Carson be treated any differently? If Brosmer isn’t ready to go then why have him the roster? Especially as the backup for that game. This was just handled poorly and something needs to change.
Carson Went'z knew his career is likely over he was told no more damage could be done he wanted to play, he wanted the chance, he wanted so show he's a warrior. KOC gave him that chance and thru it all I think between the 2 of them they showed a soft Vikings team what true grit is. Wentz gained a lot of respect in that game, respect he would NOT have gotten from any of you had KOC benched him weeks ago justifiably mind you.
Vikings have to score at least 28 to have a chance against the lions
Leaving Carson out there was a shot across the bow in front office saying ‘look at what Kwesi has left me with!’ Carson hopefully is the catalyst we needed to finally get rid of the GM!
Manny Rocks!!!
I loved home improvement to i like all tim allen shows they're good last man.Standing shifting gears funny stuff
I think the wentz thing is blown alittle out if proportion. This is how the sport is played, 20 guys play with these exact injuries every weekend
Carson should have went to KOC and said hey, I tried. I am done.