LARKIN LEADS DETROIT, FANTASTIC FINNIE, & MBN TO AHL ft. Max Bultman – Winged Wheel Podcast -Oct. 29

LARKIN LEADS DETROIT, FANTASTIC FINNIE, & MBN TO AHL ft. Max Bultman – Winged Wheel Podcast -Oct. 29

Welcome to the Wing Wheel Podcast, the number one source for news, analysis, and discussion on the Detroit Red Wings, the NHL, and all things hockey. Here are your hosts, Ryan Hannah, Brad Krisco, and Evan Lopsinger. So, it’s 6:30 local here and Max, where you are in California, it’s about 3:30 and this is the second consecutive episode where we have one of our good friends of the Winged Wheel podcast in California recording during daytime hours. And it’s not a coincidence. I We are actually all collectively jealous of the fact that you’re in California and we figured you don’t get to have fun without us. So, you actually just sit in a hotel room staring at your laptop to to record a hockey podcast. That’s true. Manhattan Beach is close by. I’m deciding, am I going to go, you know, try to walk the beach a little bit? Nope. Back to the content minds yet again. Brother, you’re talking about the Red Wings fourth line today. That’s what you’re doing. You can go out when the sun goes down. Folks, a remote episode of the Wing Wheel podcast because this is the return of Max Bman of The Athletic Detroit for a good in the room episode. Folks were wondering if these have stopped. Note, we just did September in early September and October’s came late in October, but we got it in just under the wire. Max, welcome back to the show. Glad to be back. And on that note, the Red Wings have won again the St. Louis Blues, and we have a whole 10 games of Red Wings hockey to catch up on with Max and to see where things are at, as well as some updates about the team. So, without further ado, welcome to the Wing Wheel podcast. Here to talk to you about all things Detroit Red Wings hockey, the world of the NHL, and lots more. I’m one of your hosts, Ryan Hannah. I’m Brad Krisco. I’m Max Bolman. And I’m Evan. This episode of the Wingill podcast is presented by Greenlight Lending. Red Lights are meant for lighting the lamp at the rink, not your home ownership goals. Head to go greenlightlanding.com today for creative mortgage solutions with flexible closing cost options. Licensed only in Michigan and MLS 267-683 and equal housing opportunity lender. On this episode of the show, we are going to be discussing actually some news about the Red Wings as Michael Branzigard was sent down to the AHL’s Grand Rapids Griffins and what’s next for him if we’re going to see him again this season. How this relates to Danielson, Maser, Sandine, Pelica, Finny, and others. We’re going to be talking about the Red Wings game where Detroit finished their home and home against St. Louis and did so much more decisively this time around, a second consecutive win. And then we’re going to be jumping into the good in the room segment as Max talks to us about his thoughts about the Red Wings season so far. Players like Larkin and Debria standing out, what to make of Casper and Kane and Raymond and others. And then other Red Wings and NHL notes before we jump into overtime. Very quickly, Wing Wheel Podcast night at the LCA Saturday, November 15th. Get your tickets wingpodcast.com/redings. Your tickets aren’t only access to the Red Wings game, of course, at a discounted rate. They also get you access to the Wing Wheel podcast live recording of the show at Little Caesars’s Arena featuring Ken Daniels, Rob Ray, us the hosts, less importantly, other special guests. You also get a special Detroit Red Wings and Winding Wheel podcast co-branded centennial themed blanket. Other merch, giveaways, prizes will be available. All of that and lots more. And every ticket purchased represents a donation to the Jamie Daniels Foundation. So again, winged wheelpodcast.com/redwings. MBN sent down to the AHL after nine games, which is the most that he can play without burning up a year of his ELC. And and we’ll chat about whether that’s actually the strategy here, but he is sent down to Grand Rapids after a first nine games that were a different tone than what the preeason was, but not entirely a a you know, crazy bad or crazy good nine games. We’ll start with you, Max. What do you make of the Red Wings setting him down? Were you surprised? and and what he thinks’s next. Not surprised based on, you know, he played under seven minutes in his last game, it it seemed over the last three or four that it might trend towards something like this. But, you know, I I agree with you. I don’t think he was bad. And I think after three or four or five games even, I was thinking, oh, he looks like he belongs. And then you kind of start to see maybe maybe it’s a pace question, especially, you know, the other guys are are on the score sheet a little bit more than he’s been so far. And you know, there’s all kinds of variables to that, but he’s also the youngest of them. I know they’re technically all 20, but Bransard is the one who was draft class later. So, in the arc of his career, like he was, and that’s why he’s slide eligible and the others are not as well. you know, he he was the one that I think was the most surprising to me to make the team from well, I guess Finn is the most surprising based on where everything would have been going into camp, but based on where it was maybe halfway through the preseason, Finny was the one I projected under the roster and thought, “Oh, maybe Sandy and Pelica can make a push.” Branson just wouldn’t stop scoring at that point and and so he makes a team. But he always seemed like a guy who would benefit from some time in Grand Rapids and he’s going to get that now. You know, I’m sure it’s disappointing, you know, and I I think maybe for fans who who look at the Red Wings lineup and go like, well, it’s not like the fourth line, although we’re going to talk about some good work that the fourth line did last night later on today. I’m sure it’s not like the fourth line’s been, you know, amazing and that there’s like, oh, there’s just no spot for a young guy. But I think it’s really more about what’s better for him and the role he’s going to play. you know, yeah, he could play power play two, he can play third line minutes in Detroit, he can play firstline minutes in in power play one in Grand Rapids. Ultimately, I can completely understand why you’d prefer the Grand Rapids route there. The way I see this is not that the Red Wings had a concrete plan of, you know, we’re going to have him only for nine games and then send him down because we don’t want to burn the ELC year. And, you know, I don’t think they said concretely that we’re going to keep him up for all 82. It was just if we’re going to send him now, this gives us the most flexibility. And for the reasons you pointed out, Max, yeah, the the stint in the AHL, and we talked about this last episode as well, can do him a lot of good. So, if you’re going to do it at any point, now’s the time. I was kind of debating the same questions that you mentioned of there’s not really other guys who are pushing him out of the lineup. So, is this about the Red Wings lineup? And I think it’s very obvious that the answer is no. he wasn’t doing a ton. You know, if you’re you’re talking about under seven minutes in the the final game that he played before being sent down, you can’t say that the Red Wings lineup is is is carrying a big net negative now without him. Although, I do think they’re losing something in terms of the physicality and the energy and things and they’ll have to make up for that. But yeah, at the end of the day, the calculus has to be about the player and there’s some strategy to it again because of the amount of games he played and and when you can slide a year of the entry level contract and when you can’t. I just don’t think the story is fully written on him yet. So, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that. No, I mean, and and to your point, I think he was leading the team in hits at the time he sent down. That’s something that we’ve all talked about. The Red Wings need more of a heaviness factor. And I think with the shot, like you could have made a case. It’s like, hey, like, let this guy keep trying to figure it out and and see if that comes. But I think especially once you see his arrow not trending up as steeply and then the the ice time’s going down, you’re saying, “Okay, like the coaching staff is clearly like starting to see whether it’s him pressing or whether it’s just him kind of a step behind at that point. You go let let the kid work stuff out.” And I’m sure he will. Like I think what he did in the preseason portends really good things for him in the American Hockey League. And I bet you we see him again this year. I bet you we see him again before like February. Yeah, the nineame thing, I think you phrased it right, is just flexibility. If they choose to slide it, they can. If they choose not to, they can. I I’m a believer in the Burn It for the most part at this point. We’ve seen how that’s hurting us with Edmonson right now. If he was due up for a contract earlier, there might be an extension. It might be cheaper than it comes in at, but I I don’t think it’s a huge deal either way for him cuz he’s not a guy realistically that’s going to command $10 million a year. I think this is genuinely just a development move and I think it’s a right move because again he hit everything that moved. We saw especially in preseason the flashes of the upside that he has. He especially as like the games went on and things, you know, the rest of the league, the rest of the vets in the NHL who have been playing for years got up to their normal speed. It just felt like every game that passed Bransard’s pace got exposed more and you could see the struggles and you could just see the his brain was telling him to do the right things. he just couldn’t do them quick enough and his foot speed wasn’t quick enough to get enough time and space to make those decisions a half a second slower. So, it was kind of like one problem compounds the other where if he could get himself more space, he’d have that extra half a second to make a decision, but he couldn’t get more space and he’s not used to NHL pace. So, he just couldn’t make the decision quick enough. And you could see, like I said, it just was compounding as everything got faster and he was he was really struggling to make things happen out there. So, based on what we saw so far, I mean, I’m asking you to predict the future here, but do you think we see him back up in the NHL? And and to make it easier, I’ll say that I do get the feeling that based on what we saw, unless things continue to be a little bit of a slog, literally for for MBN down in the AHL, I have to imagine that the Red Wings will have more need of him at the NHL level. Like, we he can contribute to the game right now. And if there is any kind of meaningful difference in his foot speed or or decision-m to any kind of degree, it doesn’t have to be like completely fixed overnight. I just feel like the Red Wings would be better off for it at some point down the road. I’m not guaranteeing it, but that’s just the kind of, you know, reading the tea leaves, that’s where I would land if you made me bet on it. I agree. I mean, and and we’ve seen, you know, Sodor Blum, you know, he made that kind of miraculous push. He ends up going to Grand Rapids and he stayed down there. So sometimes it goes that way too, even independent of any contract considerations. But I just look at him and I just think there’s a lot of boxes that he checks that this team is still going to be looking for come February, come March, certainly come April. And and that I think that there’s a path back there, right? So, you know, there there’s he’s going to be competing with other guys for that call up, right? Like I think Nate I think we’ll see Nate Danielson in Detroit before we see Michael Bransard back in Detroit. But would it shock me to see both of them in the lineup regularly come March? No, not one bit. especially if he fares well down there. Yeah, that was the big takeaway for me on who will come up next. Nate Danielson had a goal in the the shootout winner last night in Grand Rapids. He’s looked good. Unfortunate for Carter Maser, he’s now hurt again. But, you know, there’s competition brewing down in Grand Rapids. So, it’s no guarantee that MBN will be the next call up, but I think, you know, he goes down to Grand Rapids, works on his game, works on pace, for sure could see him up again this year. All right, I’m sure we’re going to be talking about that plenty and and more on Danielson and Maser later, but for now, let’s talk about the Red Wings game where Detroit went into St. Louis and obviously after the dramatic comeback win 6-4 in Detroit where they were down 4 nothing, all eyes were on the Red Wings to see one, how are they going to play on the road, which hasn’t been friendly to them this year, and two, against a St. Louis team that’d be motivated to kind of get their payback. And I got to say this was one of the most boring and the best way Red Wings games this season where they ended up with a 5-2 win and a much much better effort top to bottom including the bottom. The the depth showed up for Detroit this game I felt. The first place you got to point to this is the the week of practice that they’ve had. So both Sunday and Monday, virtually the entire practice is devoted to just like a couple of key things and it’s all around how you defend the track when the opposing team is on the rush. You know, who’s supposed to step to the guy at the line, who checks the guy who’s kind of for the drop off, how do you make sure that the middle is still covered? All things that have burned the Red Wings. Certainly in the Montreal game, in the Islander game, they basically dedicated two entire days to wiping that out of their game. And to their credit, they did. Like, I mean, it’s not like they put up a shut out. It’s not like there were zero mistakes, but there were very few mistakes on that, if any. And so, I think that’s like the first place you look to that is that that is a actionable result of all the practice time that they spent. I do think it’s interesting. It’s the second time this year we’ve seen a Red Wings home and home with the same team. They sweep them both. They got four more of these this year. I’ve never seen this many of this situation in an NHL season. They’re going to do it with Boston. They’re going to do it with Pittsburgh. They’re going to do it with Washington. They’re going to do it with Colorado. I’m not saying they’re going to win all eight of those games. It’s very interesting to see. Typically, you would expect, you would chalk that up as a guaranteed split one way or the other, right? And so far, they’ve been able to sweep both of those. And this one a lot more convincingly than Toronto. Toronto’s was just funny. Toronto was just theft what they went into that city and did that day. So yeah, I I’m also just from a scheduling standpoint, I think it’s I kind of like it. It’s a hold over from the the co those little mineries days. And I have to imagine that the NHL is going to be leaning on this more too now with having to cram in the Olympics, the World Cup, and two more games, you know, every other year. That that’s the kind of thing where they’re going to have to be more efficient with their scheduling. So Detroit wins 5-2. The game started terribly. Brandon Shen scored within what was it 45 47 seconds. They went down. and you’re like, “Okay.” So, one of the keys to the game was starting on time, and as is tradition, they did not. Brinchen then fought Travis Hamnick, who came in the lineup for JBD, which I thought was an interesting move. I wasn’t a terribly big fan of that based on what we’ve seen so far, but you know, he came in, maybe the Red Wings wanted some energy there and and that’s what they got with that that scrap with Hamnick, too. And then after that, it was, you know, the Red Wings pretty much the whole way through. from Ben Sherro. His shot deflects in with Appleton and Debrinka picking up the assist. De Brinka continues goalc scoring you know opened up the hopeful floodgates last game and then continued today on a power play goal where Moder walked the line and made a really nice play and Dbrinky put it in on the power play on a redirect and then Larkin on a really nice set play from the faceoff that Larkin won back to Raymond to Edmonson. Quick pass to Larkin and that was Larkin just firing home perfectly his seventh goal of the season. And then Elmer Soderblum bangs in what was a really nice play below the goal line from Michael Rasmson and JBR picks up the secondary assist and that was 4-1 for Detroit. And I think let’s stop there and talk about the way Soderblum and Rasm and the Red Wings depth. The way they performed that game in a sense that we haven’t really seen all season. You know they went back 212 forwards. So Rasmusson back in the lineup and they kind of seized an opportunity there. Absolutely. I mean and I think that goal was a blueprint for what you want to see out of Michael Rasmusson, right? We know he’s not going to be the guy who’s scoring all these breakaway rush goals. The way he’s going to create offense is by doing exactly what he did. Shield using his body to shield the puck and making a good play to the slot. He because he shielded the puck so well from that defender. that second defender of the net made a dumb decision and left Sodblum alone to go try and help and and free that puck up. Rasmusen made him pay. Sodlum is left all alone. He may, you know, he he obviously scores the goal. But to me, Rasmusen makes the play by the way that he shielded the puck from the defender with his body. And so that’s exactly what you want to see from Michael Rasmson. And for all all the valid criticism of like, hey, you know, he doesn’t make enough use of his size on let’s say finishing checks. Although he he is typically one of the hits leaders for the Red Wings. It’s just you hear 66 and you think it’s going to be more menacing than that, right? And so I think there’s some valid criticism to it. This is where he can do it without having to be a killer, right? You can make very good use of size in the NHL without it having to be, you know, hits. And this is a perfect example. St. Louis did bring it to 4-2 when Kyrie scored. And then Larkin on the empty net from Raymond gets his eighth goal of the season, his 16th point, which we’re going to talk more about in a bit. And Detroit wins 5-2. Gibson makes 18 saves in the second consecutive win against St. Louis. He didn’t have to be excellent, he just had to be decent, and that’s what, you know, he showed up for for the Red Wings. And Detroit picks up their seventh win in their first 10 games of the season. And as Ken noted on the broadcast, that was the first time since 2010 where the Red Wings were able to pull that off in their first 10 games of the season. So despite how low the lows got there for a quick second, the Red Wings are off to about as hot of a start that you could have reasonably asked for if you’re a Red Wings fan. This is uncharted territory for the podcast. We don’t know what to do. We don’t know what to say anymore. The script runs out here. Yeah, we’ve seen stretches like this before over the course of the history of this podcast and 99% of the time it’s us looking at something on the team and going that is extremely unsustainable. When is the cliff going to hit except the Red Wings have one of the lowest PDOs in the league right now. So they’re actually underperforming what their PDO says they should be. Now their five on five numbers aren’t glowing but their special teams are still in the positives. It’s weird though because this is as close as they have felt to being sustainable at any of the stretches over the history of this podcast where they’ve been good. You know, the seven game win streaks last year were awesome, but I think everybody watching them knew that was the new coach bump. That was not going to be something that is going to happen regularly cuz I don’t think the Red Wings goending’s been particularly good this year. I don’t think they’ve been horrific, but they haven’t. They’ve stolen one maybe two games. There’s several key players on this team who are not performing up to the standard we think they’re going to perform up to. Yes, EMTT Finn is a huge surprise. And Cindy Pel has been good, but it’s not like these are the guys that just came in, brought the youthful enthusiasm and as they’re like, “Okay, now we have all these rookies. They’re all going to be nominated for the Calder. You can’t stop this team.” So, it’s weird. As much as there’s been a lot of things going right for Detroit, a lot hasn’t. And yet, they’re still seven and three. And I don’t say that as a point of concern because every team has things go wrong. Like you look around all the top teams in the league, there’s going to be a Marco Casper who’s only got, you know, one or two points or something like that. So, I feel like the Red Wings might not be in a terrible position cuz if Larkin regresses or Cider has a few off games, well, maybe that’s when Edmonson bounces back. Maybe that’s when Casper bounces back and everything just kind of continues to level out over the season. Here’s where I’d be I agree with the overall thrust of your point actually completely. Here’s where I’d be careful on the PDO portion of it on two fronts. One of them I did not even expect to be the case. One, I think that the PDO calculator is wrong because it says 97.1 is the PDO, but it’s got the save percentage at 882 and the shooting percentage at 12.7. I am by no means a math major, but that is 10.8. That is not 97.1. So, I don’t know what’s going on with that. That is not their PDO. The math says they are what we thought they were exactly. The other half of that is that the shooting percentage is actually way higher than league average. Like 12.7 is a shooting percentage that you look at as a team, not as an individual player, but as a team, and you go, that’s not going to sustain. Now, the flip side is the save percentage, right? Except for the save percentage is not because they’ve gotten particularly bad goalending. A few moments here and there, it’s been an earned low save percentage by the quality of chances they’ve given up. So, I almost am throwing the PDIO stuff out the window for all kinds of reasons. Whether or not the calculation on hockey reference is correct, which it’s not. I don’t know what happened there. Usually, those things are just spreadsheet things that it’s clockwork. That’s that’s a weird thing to me, but I agree with the bulk of what you said because the fact that they’ve been this good while Marco Casper has one point, while Alex Debrink has two goals, right? While Lucas Raymond has not looked even really close to himself, but he’s still humming along at a point per game pace. Like without Patrick Kane, I you know their defense like I think Mort Cider started the year really good. He has an uncharacteristically off night last night. Simon Edmonson has had a couple of those early this year. Like they found a way to do this without having it be their like a game in an unsustainable way. So on the overall thrust, I do completely agree. That’s weirdly like maybe the most encouraging thing about the Red Wings is that you feel like their best is still untapped. they still do give us our our creature comforts of goal within the first minute and you know a couple really terrible games after showing that they can play extremely well. So we know it’s not like this completely foreign departure from from the Red Wings we know and love. So the gradual steps are almost more promising that way. And I mean, you can look at guys like De Brinket and how snake bitten he was to start and how much of the the the goals below expected were just from that that player alone. And it’s a small sample size, but you’ve seen enough where the difference in how they play, and I like what you pointed out, Max, about the way that they’ve practiced and what they’ve been focusing on. They’re starting to weed out the bad habits of of I almost want to categorize it all as how they react when things go wrong because that’s that’s when things start to to come up that way. I mean, even after the St. Louis game, we didn’t talk about enough last episode is Mlullen, you know, was happy that they won on the the first leg of the home and home, but he was also he was riled up and that that next practice was intense. Like they shouldn’t have gone down 4 nothing that game. And it’s interesting to hear what they’ve been working on those practices. Like it’s been Mlullen has really kind of taken a keen eye as to those big glaring red flags early. And it was not a quiet they were not quiet practices like this. This is more like barking kind of practices like this was not going to be something they were going to be able to in one ear out the other. They were going to do this right one way or another. And and to their credit they did. But it was again like I wrote this the other day like it’s it’s encouraging how well they’ve responded to being challenged by their coach. It’s discouraging that we’re talking about two to three times being challenged by their coach and it’s not even Halloween. I don’t know what to make of all that, right? Cuz I don’t think you can have that 30% of the time through a season and everyone still be like cool. But on the other hand, really encouraging resilience. One of our questions about the Red Wings coming in was, “Are they mentally tough enough?” So far, they look pretty mentally tough. They can take, you know, getting really called out by their coach and they can come back from down 40 after already being in a twoame losing streak. Like, that’s great, but man, do not put yourself in this position too often. What does it say that you just said 30% of the time you can’t be that way sustainably? And I thought, “Oo, only 30%.” What a great season that’s going to be. So, so the Red Wings upcoming, they have, you know, a lot of time left on the road as evidenced by Max in California right now. On Thursday, they have the LA Kings 10:30 Eastern. And on Friday, they have the Anaheim Ducks 10:00 p.m. Eastern. And then we’re going to be back with you on Sunday. We’re going to be recording and posting before Sunday’s game, which is the San Jose Sharks at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. And then their last game of the road trip is Vegas 10:00 p.m. Eastern. So, I mean, obviously, you know, how many points are you looking for if you’re the Red Wings? You’re looking for all of them. Off to a hot start with with the St. Louis win, and that’s good. And you have a mix of teams there in terms of the quality of the teams. Like, you have games that should be, you know, winnable. You have a team maybe at your caliber there, thereabouts, and then you have, you know, what could be a juggernaut. But at the end of the day, it’s going to be a tough task as the road trip goes on. And we said last episode that this is going to be a really good indicator for how the Red Wings handle the grind of the season and when things aren’t going to go their way just because it’s it’s stacked against them. So, anything that you’re kind of keeping your eye on, you know, macro view or individual player-wise for for what to look for for the rest of the road trip? A few things. The Cider Edmonson pair being reunited is very interesting to me. That was one of the first things Mlullen changed. I mean, that was a pair that was working under Derrick Holone, and he comes in and he splits them up and and the logic made sense. Like, you kind of want to have one of them on the ice at all times. So, to see them reunited is very interesting. That’s something I meant to ask Mlullen about today, but just got sidetracked by other things and anyway, distracted or whatever and need to follow up with him about because that’s very interesting to see. You know, I I I thought Marco Casper had an improved game in St. Lewis and you know it’s it’s funny like you see a player and and this was the case with the Brinket when he was in his drought too. You see a player who’s like really given it full all and then the bounces don’t go and you’re like oh that’s that’s not how that’s supposed to work but it’s almost like you have to earn your bounce for a while and and I think it’s coming for him because I thought that was maybe his best game of the year so far in St. Louis. He gets to the net. The puck kind of goes off him but but slides out. I actually don’t even know for sure if they would have counted it. I, you know, it’s always tough to tell when it goes off a skate, but he’s another guy who’s who’s very central here, right? I mean, it at training camp that was their best line, I thought was to Brinket, Casper, and Kane. And now Kane’s out, so maybe that’s part of it, but I also just haven’t thought Casper’s looked quite right. Even Lucas Raymond since the injury, I don’t know if he’s looked quite himself. And I personally chalk that up entirely to the injury and think he’s probably gutting through it for them just because they don’t have Kane and and they really need him. But can also make a case and Mlullen kind of did today that well if you’re healthy enough to be out there, you’re healthy enough to have kind of your your standards be your standards. So I’m interested in all of those things. thinking specifically about Edmonson and Cider and it’s funny kind of the spark for that was kind of really poor play elsewhere on defense outside of Mo Cider and whatever he was doing on the ice and Ben Shrot who I think deserves a lot more credit this year than he he typically gets. Edmonson’s just it’s a small sample but I really love what I’ve seen from that pair. All this is doing is I think helping the Red Wings defensive force at least in one regard. It’s not top to bottom a force to be reckoned with to say the least, but that top pair is is the eye test and the analytics have shown really really good results in a limited sample unsurprisingly. Although I do it’s making that contract more expensive. As Brad mentioned at the top, there’s a couple games there where you’re like, “Oh man, Evston with a rough start to the season, but hey, maybe the next contract’s going to be cheaper.” I think by the end of the year, we’ll be laughing at that as more of a little blip than anything else. Well, here’s the thing. It’s all like A, they don’t need it to be that cheap. They have so much cap space. They have so many good contracts, long contracts right now that like they can overpay on on one or two of them if they have to. And B, who even knows what an overpay is anymore? 5 years ago, no player with the $10 million salary had ever won the Stanley Cup. And that has changed with Eel and Babski, obviously. But Logan Culie signs an 8-year $10 million deal this morning. And my first reaction is, wow, what a steal for Utah. So, it’s like everything’s out the window at this point. I mean, talk about a steal of contracts. Let’s just pivot over to to Hutch and the Lions. I was happy to see that one coming. Yeah. I mean, and that one’s somehow at those premium positions, you you pretty much assume that whoever signs next is resetting the market and signing the highest deal ever. He came in under Micah Parson, so I guess you take that as a win. So, that’s the Red Wings upcoming road trip and our schedule there. We’re going to be covering more obviously with the team and Max’s takeaways. He mentioned his 10 thoughts that he just published. So, lots to talk about, especially with Dylan Larkin as well and what he might do this season. But first, a word from our sponsors of the Wing Wheel podcast. Back after this. You ever see yourself in the mirror after a long week and think, “Man, I’ve lost a bit off the top, not just in the standings. Yeah, hair loss hits harder than a blue line stand up sometimes, but the good news is it’s something you can actually do something about. That’s where HIMS comes in. 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Featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness, or quality, prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Welcome back, Max. You just published a piece on the Athletic about your 10 thoughts about the Red Wings season so far. And you actually have an upcoming piece that you just mentioned to us about EMTT Finny. And you know, a lot of focus on the Red Wings is about Dylan Larkin and his hot start. So, why don’t we start with Larkin, but we’ll there’s a lot for you to catch up on because it’s been almost a couple months here since the listeners have heard you. Yeah. All that’s happened for Dylan Lin since the last time we talked is he’s off to maybe his best start to a season as a Red Wing. And I think what’s most interesting about it is that it’s there’s really nothing about it that’s like, oh, I don’t recognize this. It’s all the stuff we’re used to seeing. It’s just every night, right? And and it’s every night at a really high level. I mean, there’s a couple of the set plays that they’ve used over again. and you know, Sherrot and Edmonson setting up those slot one-times. That’s something that I think is a really valuable thing is is for them to kind of have those nonp power play manufactured touches like that and and him being such a good faceoff guy enables it because you have a pretty good idea that he’s going to win that draw and create that chance. But it’s everything and and I I I think he’s setting up plays. He’s he’s throwing pucks to the net in a way that just create more opportunity. I think about that goal in the Oiler game where he throws it on net from the half wall. Like that’s not exactly like a high percentage play. And yet compared to what it is if you, you know, slow that down, try to really take your time and get cute with it, you might just cost yourself that opportunity. And so sometimes good things happen when you just let it rip. And I thought that was the best game I’ve ever seen him play to be honest. That Oilers game, the way he shut down Conor McDavid and then the offense just kind of finds you. that’s that’s a a hockey principle that I can get behind and and he exemplified it. So, I think he’s playing outstanding hockey. He’s he’s really carrying the load. And to your point about Finny, like there’s an overlap there, right? Like these things work together. We saw Larkin and Raymond be really good last year with Marco Casper on their line. Guys, EMTT Finny to me looks a lot like mini Marco Casper. And I use Mini as pretty much to just mean he’s a year younger because he’s every bit as big. He’s really fast. I mean, yeah, he doesn’t have quite the same level of like skill that I think Casper does, but he’s really smart just like Casper. He’s really competitive just like Casper. And he’s having the same kind of impact that Casper did there. I think it’s really interesting that we talked I mean, we did must have did four or five episodes this summer over and over, banging our heads against the wall going, who are they going to play next to these guys? And here comes this guy who is just he’s very similar to what Marco Casper was with those two. And I think that’s a big reason why it’s happened. He goes digs pucks out. He can finish his own plays. There’s just a lot to like about the way Detroit’s top line looks. And again, that’s with Raymond looking not quite himself yet. That last point is, I think, what is standing out to me the most. And it really just lends back to what you just said, Max. So Finny and Larkin both deserve all the credit in the world because it’s they’re doing. And Larkin, let’s talk about his start first. Like I would have said it’s crazy to think Larkin could be a 100point player for someone who you know asked that question preseason in let’s say an overtime thread. I also would have said it would be a pretty long shot for Axel Sandy and Pela to make the team at the same time as MBN and Finny who is on the top line with Larkin. So apparently we’re all we’re doing right now in hockey town is crazy. But based on how Larkin’s playing yeah like you’re right it’s not like every single shot is just being deflected in and this is just a run hot and it’s not sustainable. we are just seeing Dylan Larkin more. So I do have the same kind of questions about how is this going to age throughout the season and especially with the Olympics where he’s going to be I still think more of a force for team USA than people give him credit for based on what we saw from foreign nations. But this is Dylan Lin who’s found a new piece of chemistry here and that’s still without Lucas Raymond that 100% who we know that’s probably his best connection on the team in terms of chemistry and production. I mean, Raymond’s still racking up points with like secondary assists and and some decent plays here and there, well injured, so it’s not like he’s been devoid of any contributions, but still like Lurin has somehow taken another step. And so through 10 games, sure, you can say that’s a small sample size and can go away and he could peter out and finish between 70 and 80 points by the end of the year, but you have to be really encouraged by what you’ve seen so far that Lurin has seized this kind of opportunity of having another linemate that has brought out the best and what he needs on the ice. And he’s capitalized and the Red Wings are even better for on their top line when before we wouldn’t have looked for the top line for anything other than what they’ve been giving the team. when someone starts to surpass or a player or a team starts to surpass my expectations of them, one of the ways that I try to kind of balance it is is I go, “All right, what if the rest of the way is exactly what I thought the whole way was going to be?” Right? So, if if coming in this year, I told you Dylan Larkin was going to be a 75, you know, 30 30 to 35 goal, 75ish point center, which is what I would have told you, what does that add up to the rest of the way? Well, if he’s that player with the start that he’s had, you’re talking about a guy who’s going to finish with like 82 to 85 points here. And that seems very possible to me. That’s just being a point a game or slightly below player for the rest of the the way, which I think is what all of us would have guessed for Dylan Lurin. So, that’s how I try to balance it out. I don’t think that every good swing has to be balanced by an equally bad swing and it all adds up. Like, if if you outperform for a stretch, I think you’ll go to your baseline eventually and then you get the product of that. And that applies to the team, too, right? Like we’re looking at them 10 games in and they’ve got 14 points, so they’re at 1.4 points per game. Well, that’s a great, you know, percentage, but if you just balance it to what you thought they were coming in, it only bumps the total by a couple points. But as that goes on, if they continue to play at a, you know, ahead of their pace, the math gets friendly. And that’s how I kind of try to calculate expectations. And the math right now for Dylan Larkin, to your point, Ryan, looks really, really good. He’s only three points off first in the NHL. He’s tied for fourth in league scoring. So, I think we need to just rejections as to where he’s going to finish in the Art Ross race. And I frankly, I think he’s going to win it the way he’s going. And I think to your point as well, Max, like you know, we talked about the Red Wings points percentage and, you know, getting points now. A lot of the Red Wings wins were against Atlantic Division teams. Like those are four point games. So, you know, yeah, the Red Wings have 14 points in 10 games. That’s fantastic. Better than I think anyone would have projected at this point, but they’ve beat the right teams as well. So, you know, those are the types of wins, the types of wins over teams in your division that are going to pay massive dividends as the playoff race starts to come around. Teams really start to tighten up around that playoff cutoff point. He made a comment after the I think it was after the Oilers game where he was talking about Finny and he he made a comment that was like I see him be fearless out there and I go like I I can be fearless too. And you think about that in the other direction most of the time where the the young guy’s looking to the older guy and and wanting to be like him. I thought that was an interesting framing by by Larkin of like you get this almost like youthful It’s not recklessness, but it’s this like useful invincibility kind of thing. And if you can tap into that as an older player and and get that feeling back, I mean, we all remember what that felt like to be 20 years old and just think like, I’m going to do this. Yeah. Like, why wouldn’t I do this, right? And it’s almost like you don’t know any better that of of how hard it really is. And I wonder if we’re see I I think that was really insightful from Dylan. I think that really captures a little bit of what we’re seeing in his game. Even though it’s the same Dylan, we’ve always kind of seen it. Just like you said, Ryan, it’s like Dylan Larkin but more. I mean, that line alone should earn EMTT Finny some more first place Calder votes. I think one thing that I’ve harped on a lot over the years is that I don’t really love putting ceilings on what we’ve seen from, you know, 25 to 29 year old players on the Red Wings who are good, but they’ve been on the team the entire time the team has been bad. And Dylan Larkin was the poster boy for that. Like I Yeah. Is he around a point per game player at best most years for the past while? Absolutely. But at the same time, he’s not had a good team for a complete season. It’s only been the last few years where he’s had a good team for any stretch at all. And so, I mean, I’m hopeful. Well, I’m not going to guarantee it cuz again it’s just 10 games, but I’m hopeful that this EMTT Finny coming in and giving the team a spark and Axel Sandine Pela coming in and giving the team a spark on the blue line and for a brief period MBN as well, that is the beginnings of this team kind of elevating and yeah, like Larkin having actual tangible takeaways from these players and how they play and finding a new way to to mix into his line, but also just the the rising tide lifting all boats. So, the sky’s is the limit for Larkin. I I think it’s really cool to see more of the league appreciate him. I think we’ve really been seeing a focus from national media on the Red Wings even more so than ever this season and it’s nice to see Larkin at that forefront. I think hopefully he’ll get some more appreciation come Olympics, but that’s it’s about as good of a start that you could have hoped for and honestly one that wasn’t expected. And speaking of which, just lean more into Finny. this guy, the more he plays, the more I’m like, “Yeah, that I would have a hard time seeing this falling away.” You know, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with MBN and his path and and sending him down. Like, that is so exceedingly normal and expected for even a first round pick, a higher first round pick. And EMTT Finny is just breaking all the molds. He’s playing the game the right way. He’s doing things out there that, you know, players take years to kind of pick up on and do automatically. and it’s indicative of how he’s kind of developed over time and I know Max you’ve done you’re about to put a piece out on the Athletic Detroit about how he developed as a player over time. So tell us a little bit more about that. Well yeah I mean really it’s just trying to answer the question of like how did this kid go from where he was right everyone knows by now zero goals his first year in junior a seventh round draft pick. How do you go from that to to where he is now? It almost never happens this fast for seventh round picks. We we don’t see very many seventh round picks become full-time NHLers. And again, Finn is at, you know, 10 games right now, so I’m not saying he’s already there, but it looks pretty clear to your point, Ryan, and and we just don’t see it this fast. There’s a stat in there. He’s the 11th youngest player in NHL history picked in the seventh round or later to hit the five-point threshold. Think about that. That is staggering to hear in in how long the NHL has existed. The Rebings are in their hundth season as you all are well aware, right? And and that’s across the league. So this doesn’t happen. And I think the way that he did it, you you really can’t divorce from his path. Like it’s it’s not like, oh, he’s doing this even though he was a seventh round pick. It’s all Mlullen had a great line about it after that Oilers game. It was like because he had to do all these little things. I trust him and that’s why he’s here because what and honestly like Finn’s on pace right now for like 64 points. I don’t think that’s where he’s going to end up, right? But I don’t think anyone in that locker room on that bench is going to care if this guy finishes with 35 points or 40 points because everything he does impacts winning, right? Like whether it’s his defensive stick and he’s going to get stick on puck and he’s going to back checkck as hard as he can. It’s forcheek, you know, freeing up Larkin to sit a little high on the slot, look for a pass there, even though they they kind of connect on the other side of that a couple games ago. But like Finny can go be the first guy down there. Fine can win a board battle. And when he does, he has the hockey system. This is the biggest differentiator I think is like I don’t know what you guys thought, but whenever I had watched him, I was like, “Okay, I’m thinking of the boxes that are checked, right? 61 like projectable size check. Skating double check.” Like excellent skater. Competitiveness and like, you know, grit. Okay. Yeah. Fearlessness. Check. To me, I’m thinking energy guy. And so, when I earlier this summer did my like future lineup projection, I penciled EMTT Finny in as the 4C. And I felt like I was being even a little bold. Like, ah, this seventh round pick, I think he’s going to be the regular 4C in two or three years. Turns out I was way off. And the reason that I was off is because this hockey sense is way better than I ever gave credit for. And I don’t know if that’s a, you know, am I overrating it a little bit now because of what we’ve seen? I don’t know. But when I’ve made these calls, it gets mentioned by people. Like he, this is a smart player. And so, you know, he’s on power play one right now. That’s not going to keep up forever when Patrick King gets back. But he’s going to keep making winning plays because he’s smart, he has the physical tools, and he has the mental aptitude for. And and all those things are pretty much things he had to to work for and and work through to find ice time. And so I I really enjoyed reporting the story cuz I just think it’s a it it resonates like anything that you want to do, you you may or may not have the opportunity for right away, but if you just kind of commit to being where you are and being the best at what you’re being asked to do, you will own those things. And there’s some Morgan stuff about kind of how they found him that that I hope people will enjoy. But this kid has been a really obviously it’s a positive story for the Red Wings. They needed him this year. that they needed a player like this in the big picture of their rebuild. You know, we’ve talked how many times about how it can’t just be the first round picks. It’s also just pretty inspirational in general, right? Like this is this is something is a story that I think everyone can can relate to and draw something from. When we think about how we’ve wanted the Red Wings to play for the past, you know, five, six years and and outside of lacking the talent, but just the mentality and what you want to see them do on the ice, it’s like he’s packaged up and a delivery from the hockey gods to say, “Hey, here’s your energy guy who’s also productive of old from the the Red Wings dominant decades and here’s the newest version that you haven’t seen in a long time, which is really cool.” And a similar player is Marco Casper, who’s not off to the same start as Emtt Finny, but you know, still such an important cog for the Red Wings if they’re going to continue to be successful. So, what do you see from Marco Casper so far with just one goal to start the year? It’s weird because it it’s just it’s just we talked about with Larkin how it’s like Larkin but a little more. With Casper, it’s almost the inverse. Like, there’s nothing that I’m saying like, oh, he’s doing this way different than he has in the past. You’re just not noticing him quite as much. Maybe it’s a half step of whether it’s hesitance or or whatever else. Is he looking for the play to kind of come to him instead of just going and disrupting right now? I I thought again we’re recording this on Wednesday afternoon. I thought Tuesday night’s game that was the most like Marco Casper he’s looked this year. So encouraging signs maybe that’s going to kind of come around. I I agree that they’re similar players and one thing I’ve been thinking of to take a little bit of a tangent is like is this a little bit of a vindication in the way that the Red Wings have drafted which at times has caught a little bit of heat for targeting this style of player right I mean it’s the the compete guys it’s the you know hardest worker guys projectable guys perceived as kind of more floor than ceiling and maybe there’s still truth to that but again like what’s the reason why you value a player like that is because they can play anywhere in your lineup and they can be the missing piece for your two best players when they don’t have an answer on the left wing. Like you just draw in and you find one of these guys because they have those traits. So Casper did that a year ago. Finn’s doing it now. I think that is a little bit of a vindication for the Red Wings draft strategy and and obviously you want to see Casper get back to being that. I really don’t have any doubts that he will whether it takes five games, 10 games, 20 games. I just don’t think those traits Wayne. It’s It’s something that will come back. I just really feel that way. There have been Red Wings who have been bad and like not playing like themselves. And I I think when they’ve had their worst games so far, sure, Casper’s been part of that and he’s made some mistakes over the course of the season. But at the same time, yeah, I tend to agree. It just feels like maybe this is a manifestation of some kind of like light sophomore slump, like added pressure, harder minutes, you know, more of a a less of a looseness, so to speak, of of how you come into games, and you know, you’re a bigger piece of the pie. And other teams are zeroing in on you. They know you’re a physical kind of ricochet off the the opponents kind of player, so they’re going to have tape on you and they’re going to have a plan for you kind of thing. if you’re the 2C, they’re going to have a plan for how to play you, right? So, that could all be part of it. And that’s the kind of thing where you’re not seeing any warning signs. So, yeah, I tend to agree that it’s not anything to to sound the alarms for, but sure something that has to kind of change in terms of productivity if the Red Wings are going to continue to succeed and and get away from the inconsistencies that we’ve seen through through 10 games so far. And you know, we talked about it in the first segment of the show, but Alex Debrink and you mentioned Max that he’s been doing the right things and he’s been performing extremely well and it took up until game nine to to get his first goal, but do you see this as a potential exceptional season from him where he’s going to make an Olympic push and and what do you think the heights are for to bring it? Well, let me pose this to you guys. Brad, if you if I just showed you if I didn’t show you like what where the puck ended up and I just showed you all of the Brinket’s chances this season, how many goals do you think you would have? Seven, eight, nine at least. I mean, you get those crossarss in the first period of the Blues game and like the David Riddick stick save like I I called it miraculous in the thing. I don’t even think it was a good save. It’s just like how does how is your stick there? Like it’s not like he was like flinging it across. He just kind of limply poked it out and the puck stays out. And if you’re de brinket, you’re just like, what do I have to do? He’s been he’s been so good. And the fact that he only has two goals was kind of is kind of still mindboggling. He’s been everywhere. And so he had 39 goals a year ago. You know, again, we talk about adjusting projections. Like I would have to at this point project him a little lower than that, but I still think that he is going to be a 30 plus goal guy. And I think if he’s giving you all the off puck stuff that he’s giving you, the the way that he, you know, for checks and I think he’s been a high tempmpo player, I think you’re more than happy to live with that from Alex Debrink because I think you continue to notice him almost as much as anyone on the ice, which is striking because his line has been so whether it’s Casper’s kind of being off, Kane being out, like his line has been the most kind of thrown off of any of Detroit’s lines so far. So the fact that we’re talking about Debrink in this vein is really impressive I think. So those are obviously the big names, but of you know the new guys, who else has kind of caught your eye and and anything notable where you’ve seen a shift in the way the Red Wings play because of them? Yeah, you know, I think maybe a little early on it was obvious, but Mason Appleton like I you know, he comes up and he kind of Mlo called it pinch hitting in that top six and I thought it went really well. Even since he’s gone away from that, obviously you’re not having the offensive moments that he was at the beginning of the year, but like I still feel like the more I watch him, the more I really get why this was a piece the Red Wings wouldn’t added. He might have been the the player that they added this summer that got the least fanfare of all of them, right? Like Van Rooms has the name. Gibson was obviously like, oh, this this bigname goalie that and I think Gibson’s been solid even if unspectacular. You know, Bernard Docker, you were kind of talking about the upside outside of Hamick. Like Mason Appleton got kind of the least celebration when they signed him and yet you watch the tempo. You watch it, look at where their penalty kill is at. Like that’s been a massive difference year-over-year. And Mason Appleton’s a key member of it. So he’s definitely a guy that’s making a real impact on this team and probably a guy I didn’t give enough credit to when they signed. Oh yeah. But when they brought Appleton in like you know he was maligned and even we were discussing like okay that it’s fine I think in terms of bringing in a checking forward or someone who’s going to help the PK absolutely you got to do something’s different because it’s not been working for the Red Wings and the money’s whatever with the cap going up and it’s gone up even astronomically since we had those discussions. It is what it is. But, you know, we saw the crowding of the bottom six of the Red Wings and we saw, you know, do you want to give Sodb Blum and Bear a chance to earn a spot? Do you want to give spots to Danielson and Maser and MBN and, you know, Bear and everyone else in the future? I don’t even think those were unfair notions to raise, but it’s that yeah, Appleton has been so much better than what everyone has expected and he’s kind of he came in and he was not at all part of the conversation of the crowding in the bottom six because he’s an automatic guy where you’re like, “No, you’re a good contributor in Detroit’s depth and when they put you on the first line and you’re not at all in the same vein of the Rasmusins and the confers and the Solder Blums and whoever else people are debating should be in or out of the lineup.” So pleasantly surprised and and I I’ll say, you know, happy to be wrong on how much of an impact Appleton’s been able to have. And you mentioned the PK and the special teams, like God, that turnaround has been so clutch for the Red Wings where their PK has just been so rock solid this season. Yeah. And Pashant had a great piece today that I think everyone should go check out. like he had a stat. I’m going to get the number wrong, but it’s something like 36% of the shots that opponents are taking on their power plays against the Red Wings are getting through to the net. Like the Red Wings are blocking like crazy or they’re forcing guys to take off angle shots where the shots are going wide. I mean, that’s the best thing you could ask. I mean, obviously, other than like winning every face off and getting every clear and denying every entry, like once a team is set up, the best thing you can hope to do is get a block or make a miss the net because that’s how you get a loose puck and get those clears. So, that stat probably, frankly, explains the entirety of the Red Wings penalty kill improvement. You know, I’m sure there’s some schematic reasons that it’s happening. They’re obviously being very aggressive, but that’s a gamecher for them to have a penalty kill that is coming up this big. And Brad mentioned earlier like the goalies haven’t been outstanding, but they haven’t been bad and they haven’t really had to be that great outside of Talba, you know, stealing two points, Grant Larsson from Toronto. And I mean, that’s a big part of it. We always say it’s hard to be a Red Wings goalie behind this defense. And you know, fans and the team have been looking for an answer where it’s like, how do you overcome that? And that was never going to be the answer solely. Like there had to be some meeting in the middle. and good teams make their goalies lives easier and that’s what Mlullen has been doing with the Red Wings and it’s really interesting to see we’ll link the article the the stats Pashant pulled of yeah like they are I don’t want to say selling out in terms of you know just blocking everything but by the numbers kind of like they’re not letting their goalies get shelled and so when it comes to making key saves and big moments as as Gibson has done a few times great and it was still only a 20 shot game for St. Lewis last game. So the turnaround the special teams we said would be one of the biggest things that the the season’s performance would hinge on. And man, you imagine they had that last year or the year before. It’s like that’s a playoff team just by the numbers. Yeah, you could subtract enough goals from that and you know obviously part of it’s keeping the power play at its level of effectiveness. There’s been a little bit of a trade-off to that so far, but not extreme. I mean where the penalty kill started from was one of the five worst penalty kills in NHL history. So, for it to be like I think it’s a top 10 unit right now, that’s massive. All right, those are our Red Wings notes with Max the Good in the Room segment. Some other things, Nate Danielson has continued to roll on as Evan mentioned earlier, a goal in the shootout winner last night as Grand Rapids continues on their franchise best start in the AHL. Unfortunate news, Carter Maser being evaluated for a lower body injury that he sustained in practice. and and you look at the Red Wings, Patrick Kane is still out. There’s no guarantee that he’s going to come back on this road trip, though they’re hopeful for it. And and MBN needs time down the AHL. Danielson, you don’t know how long he’s going to need to shake off the Russ, although he looks very much an NHL right now. This just seemed like Mer’s moment with how hot he started the year. Like, that’s a bummer. We’re still waiting for concrete updates on how long it’s going to be, but that was an unfortunate update from the Griffins. You just hate to see any injuries. You feel like this guy’s had paid his injury dues 10 times over, right? He’s missed so much time at such an important parts of his career at heartbreaking times, too. I mean, at starts of seasons at his NHL callup in his debut and now like when he’s off to a great start and looked like, honestly, he looked like he was going to be a really quick call up this year with how he started. So again, we’ll see how serious it is and what the next update is, but I think everyone is just devastated for this guy. I mean, it nobody wants to see Carter Maser miss any more time and and it’s if he, you know, he’s obviously was out for the game last night and and we’ll see where the update is, but really feel for him, whatever it is. No, I think the the hope here for Carter Maer is that uh what was the movie from the 70s or 80s, the $6 million man that if he gets all the injuries out of the way now, they just rebuild him as a cyborg and he will be unstoppable in the future because it’s all out of the way now and they rebuild him bigger, faster, stronger. That’s how that works, right? Yeah. And and look, we don’t know what the injury is at this point. Like I think it’s just it what it speaks to more than anything Ryan is like everyone is is feeling this and everyone is like you know in the Red Wings world it’s like ah not again you know and so maybe it’ll be short and I think that’s obviously the the hope. Um but regardless it’s it’s tough to see. he did put on, and not to kind of pile on here, but he did put on a lot of weight and a lot of muscle very fast. And I I can say when you’re more of a slight frame and then you put on weight, like it does change the way your body moves and things. And so I wouldn’t be surprised if this is like, you know, a temporary phase in ter and it’s rich to say because he’s been injured prior. You’re definitely focusing on it and you’re definitely it’s no doubt a concern, but your body does take time to adjust to that kind of thing, too. So that’s the the optimistic view. So remains to be seen. Fingers crossed that it’s nothing too long for for Carter Maser. All right, let’s jump into the rest of the NHL. And a couple of key contracts were announced between last episode and this one. And notable, you know, names across the league. Logan Kulie, as Max alluded to, 8year, $10 million per year extension with Utah, who’s off to an incredible start. And then Thomas Harley with the Dallas Stars with a 8-year, just under $10.6 $6 million per year cap hit coming in and that was a a big number but you know Thomas Harley great defenseman 24 years old left shot and there’s two things that come to mind if you’re a Red Wings fan to look at this from a you know red colored lenses is one does this inform at all on a Simon Edmonson extension or are they too different of players in terms of impact and two does this squeeze out Robertson as a potential way to try to add in future star talent. Now the cap is going up, but Dallas does have to make some decisions here. Well, Dallas seems like that team that’s going to be constantly pushing this upper limit cuz they got ahead of it when they got Rantin. They’re getting ahead of it now with Harley. I still think the salary cap’s going up so much that if there’s a desire to keep Robertson, they’re going to be able to do it. Again, the cap’s not real. Teams find ways around this all the time. I I think the more relevant conversation with this in Detroit is the Edmonson angle because I don’t think Simon Edson is Thomas Harley. Thomas Harley was a key piece of the Canadian team that won the Four Nations. He might be on the Olympic team. Like he’s more well established than Edmonson. But when we were talking about the Hudson and the Hughes and the Lome contracts as kind of maybe being the comparable, Harley kind of put the upper ceiling on it now. So if everything goes really well for Edmonson this year, this is kind of the upper ceiling comparable now. Like the absolute best case scenario for Simon cuz I know we were joking around like with how the cap’s going. If would you pay him 11? Would you pay him 12? Would you pay him 13? where where’s the limit of you’re still getting good value for that caliber of player in the new salary cap world now I think we have a good idea of what the top of that could look like the reality is people get paid on points and it it even for defensemen who that’s not how you should measure them it’s kind of how you get paid and Harley produces more points than Simon Edson so I don’t think this is like necessarily a a real worry that he’s going going to be in that territory anyway. I would agree that it’s like a ceiling if anything, but I still kind of look at some of those contracts right in the $9 million range and say like for a guy who plays the kind of minutes Edson does, that’s probably more the the question is like somewhere between CERS 8.5 to to nine is probably the answer here. Yeah. as more data points sort of come out with contracts getting signed, it’s going to become more difficult, I think, for player and team to come up with a number because I think there’s arguments on both sides for various numbers, right? Like, you know, is should he get paid more than Cider because the salary cap’s going up? Is he equivalent to Thomas Harley? Like both sides are going to use data and other contracts to get their their number across. So, it’s I think it’s getting more difficult to be honest for Simon Edmonson and the Detroit Red Wings to come up with a number that makes sense for both both parties. And we’re thinking about Edmonson and Casper right now. And Brad made a good point of you know when Debrink’s eligibility comes up for extension too. Like I’m curious to see how these are handled. We’re seeing across the league there are guys who are willing to do it but I I almost and this is just anecdotal thinking. It’s almost like when they are so guaranteed to get paid so much that they don’t bother with waiting longer because it’s like the number could actually be an obstruction in terms of the team success because it takes up too much of the cap. If you’re on either end of the spectrum, you’re more likely to sign earlier. But those guys who are, you know, still really good, but maybe not the absolute best in earning, you know, 112 million, I feel like they’re more likely, them and their agents, to push this further down, closer to their free agency period because the cap is still going up so much. And, you know, barring some kind of global disaster again, I don’t really see that doing anything other than accelerating. All right, food for thought. With that, let’s take another quick break and when we’re back, the final segment on this episode of the Wing Wheel podcast. Back after this. Celebrate a century of Red Wings hockey at Hockeytown Centennial Fanfest November 6th to 9th at Motor City Casino Hotel. Experience the ultimate Redwing celebration packed with activities for fans of all ages. Meet and mingle with over 50 Red Wings legends and Hall of Famers including Sergey Fedoff, Scotty Bowman, Nick Litstrom, Steve Eisman, Chris Chelios, and so many more. Exclusive merchandise, interactive experiences, skills, challenges, autograph sessions, and more. You won’t want to miss this once in a-lifetime event. Tickets are going fast. Get yours now at detroit.com/fanfest. Now, we’re going to overtime. Overtime is brought to you by our Patreon supporters. patreon.com/wingrealpodcast. If you want to support the show and join the Dubdub Club, get access to benefits like our bonus overtime episodes, which record right after these main ones. We let loose. We have fun. You get thoughts with Evan. When Max is on for Good in the Room episodes, Max gives you an unfiltered stream of expletives that would get us cancelled if it ever made it to air. But it’s a a really great time. You’ll also get access to our Patreon exclusive Discord and you’re automatically entered into all of our giveaways. We give away two tickets to every Detroit Red Wings home game going directly to our Patreon supporters. And we also tell you exactly where to look to see where Max is up in the press box and we give you a blow dart as well. So again, patreon.com/wingedwheelodcast. Max, thanks for volunteering for those Patreon bonus. Yeah, it’s all good. But you told me you weren’t publishing the exploitives, but I mean, every man has his price. And now that there are three wind podcast children between us three hosts that it’s that price is getting lower and lower, brother. That’s true. All right, questions from our patrons. Zack Freeland says, “Should we be paying more attention to Michael Pava down in Grand Rapids? only three games played but currently got a 934 save percentage in Grand Rapids 6 and0 start. It’s a good point. He’s been exceptional down there. I think sort of like I I don’t know that I view Postava as someone who like when you’re projecting future Red Wings teams is someone that you need to be really keyed in on. But hey, goalie is the position where look we just spent a bunch of time earlier on this episode talking about a guy we didn’t see coming. at least not to this level in EMTT Finny goalie is the position where you most accept that like yeah anything can happen so it’s early for me and and Grand Rapids to your point has been just outstanding as a whole so that’s also part of this but you see some nice I mean I haven’t watched a full Grand Rapids game yet this year I I just have seen uh some of the clips coming across my timeline certainly some big postava saves in there so he’s not yet on my like kind of Red Wings radar or anything like that but you’ll take a good start from wherever you can get Third man in says, “Hey Brad, this one’s for you. I need your help. My buddy and I and fellow minor hockey coach Clint wasn’t bullied enough as a kid and he tapes a stick toe to heel because he thinks taping it the right way puts the wrong spin on the puck. So dumb. Brad, myth busted or is that is he on to something?” It’s it’s a myth. If you are, how do I phrase this? taping your stick so loosely that the actual ridges of the tape are creating influence on the puck. I I’m confused because there’s also the old school myth of if you go heel to toe collects no snow because when you’re skating up the ice now the blade is traveling so the snow doesn’t build up between the ridges as you’re going which again if you’re taping it that loosely makes no sense. I personally put so much wax on my blade. Doesn’t matter what way you go. I like going heel to toe because it’s a lot simpler to just tape it that way. And I’ve been doing it forever and it’s been fine. And like to think I got a decent shot for someone my size. So, it’s been working for me. But yeah, unless your taping technique is exceptionally poor, I I don’t think it matters all that much. And for what it’s worth, Evan started laughing when I read that out. So, you can tell you’re ready. That is that’s an absurd question. It’s It’s like when you asked me about, you know, your golf swing and things you’re am I am I thinking about these absurd things that impact? I’m like, brother, if that’s what you’re thinking about, you’ve missed the plot. The one I always laughed at is focus on a certain dimple. Like, how am I meant to do that with my eyes closed? You tell me that. I got googly eyes. How can I focus on one dimple? I see twice as many as everybody else. Gretzky had it, lost it, says, “I know this has been brought up before, but the Red Wings need to have a ring of honor as it could highlight players who have made lifetime contributions to the organization on and off the ice. My first three inductees would be Mickey, Vlatty, and Azie. Where do you guys stand on this idea, and who would you have in there first?” I can’t emphasize enough how much I love this because I think when you are as storied of a franchise as the Detroit Red Wings, you need to have other ways to recognize great players who still haven’t ascended to the retired number status, which is probably like the most elite individual distinction you can get, even surpassing Hall of Fame distinction in the NHL. But you don’t want to not honor those guys, right? So, I personally love it. I don’t think you should only have a Ring of Honor. Like, I think the way the Leafs did it forever is so stupid. But having a mix of both, I think, is a a great call. Yeah, I think you got the right names there, too. A couple more off top of my head. Brendan Shanahan and Nicholas Cromwell. Shanahan, I think we talked about this when the Fed jersey retirement news came down. I think Shanahan would have like a fringe case for it, but Cromwell certainly like you’re never going to be able to capture his significance to like the franchise without something like this. That’s like a middle ground cuz you’re you’re not probably retiring Nick Cromwell’s jersey number, but yet he was not just like a good defenseman for you. He was like an era leading defenseman for you and won Stanley Cups and one of the best players on a cup team. So, uh I I like it too. All right, next question here is from 155. Tater says, “Is it time to give Edson some power play time? leads the team in defense points and it’s not impossible that he ends up being Detroit’s best offensive defenseman. I feel like if we’re gonna tinker on the power play, that’s more of a Sand Dean Pelica thing. Not that he’s necessarily ready for it right now and not that Cider is doing a poor job of it, but when you drafted ASP, power play quarterback one is probably what you envisioned. And is that going to happen this year? Maybe, maybe not. probably not anytime soon, but that’s the role you’re building him to. If you genuinely feel that Edmonson can do it better than Cider, which I could hear an argument for, but it would take a lot of convincing. It’d have to be a really good argument, then yeah, you can go for it. If you want to throw on the tinfoil hat, you don’t put them on the power play this year, to Max’s point, to keep the dollars down. maximize him at penalty kill and five on five and pray to God he finishes with 35 points and like a plus 42 but Cider hasn’t given any reason to not be on the power play ASP is your power play quarterback of the future and though I think Edmonson could run a power play just fine he’s not one of the top two options as it stands right now yeah I came into the year expecting Edmonson to run PP2 but that was before Sandy Pelica made the team and once Sandy Pela made the team he has to be on one of the two power plays, right? So, at that point, you’re just debating, okay, are you are you moving Sandine Pelica up to power play one and then not only knocking Cider, who just, by the way, was the point man for the number four power play in the NHL last season, not just knocking power play two, but knocking him off the power play. That doesn’t seem reasonable or realistic. I mean, the the only argument you would have is if you had like a left shot one-time you were trying to feed and then it’s like a little more natural lane lefty to lefty. But on power play one certainly you’re trying to feed the righties. Raymond did debrink for those one-times. And on power play two there’s not I don’t think you’re really like trying to design your power play to set up a Marco Casper one-time there, right? So like even though you want that option, I don’t really see a a path to it. Even though I agree with Brad, I think he’s more than capable of doing it and I expect him to see it more this year. So, all right. Interesting one here. Wings purgatory hockey enjoyer says, “What do you think about Mario Ferraro as a trade and sign target as a bottom four defenseman to take over for Ben Shrot for the next few years? Solid if not spectacular relative expected goals four percentage the past couple seasons on an awful Sharks team. 2026 UFA and only 27 years old, not off to the strongest start this year, which may lower his acquisition cost. Does a guy like that provide any benefit over waiting to see if a Buouy or a Wender or Anton Johansson pan out? Not for me. You said 2026 UFA. It’s the same as Sherat. You’re not replacing Sherat with another 2026 UFA. And if you are, you’re probably doing it in 2026 UFA. So like Ferrar the player, but I don’t really see a trade case. Yeah, the Red Wings issue at defense at this point if they are making a move is higher up in the lineup. They have plenty of depth on the team now. They have plenty of depth, theoretical depth in the system. It’s still that top four left shot D that seems to be missing. And I don’t think Ferraro’s that guy. And to the point of that depth from James Pridemore, say his question for Max. Mr. Bolman, what is your opinion of the likelihood of Bouam and Wender being NHL players in the future? Thanks for all you guys do. Student teaching is tough. Yeah, I think they will both be NHL players to varying degrees. Like I, you know, I’m not saying one of them is going to play 800 games or anything like that. It’s not impossible. They both have certain attributes that scream NHL. Like for Wellinder, it’s the skating at 6’4 that’s really hard to find. For Boom, it’s the sense at 6’3 that’s really valuable with a little bit of offense to his game, too. You could have a really good debate about which of those players you would rather have. and the Red It’s a real decision the Red Wings are going to probably have to make at some point because you’re going to run out of spots at some point. So, I think I prefer boo for the the sense, but I can completely understand why skating at that size is just so valuable. Like, it creates so many opportunities defending the rush. I just haven’t quite consistently enough seen like the the edge that I would want from that player in Waller, but physically there’s no question it’d be him. I I just would kind of lean if you’re torn I you maybe lean to the hockey sense. What do you think, Brad? Yeah, I’ve gravitated towards Bu over Windermore. Hockey sense is just the most valuable thing in the NHL nowadays. The skating is a huge plus. But even when you force those turnovers or end up with a puck on your stick, you still got to make a positive play with it. How many defensemen have we seen in the NHL who are really good stoppers, really good in transition, real like in terms of they’re skating and then the puck gets on their stick and it’s glassing out like just can’t do anything with it. And I’m not saying Minder’s poor with the puck. He’s not. But Bouam does bring another level to that. So, I have more faith in bringing Bu’s skating up to NHL passible than I am Willinder’s hockey sense to the same level at the NHL. All right, on that note, we’re going to wrap up this episode of the Wing Wheel podcast and we’re going to get into recording our Patreon exclusive overtime episode. Thank you all so very much for tuning in. If you want to hear those Patreon exclusive bonus overtime episodes, patreon.com/wingodcast is how you get access to that and so much more. And if you want to help us out, but Patreon is not really your thing, that is totally okay. Wherever you’re getting this podcast, Spotify, Apple Podcast, YouTube, wherever, if you want to subscribe, you know, leave a rating or a review or a thumbs up or a like or whatever it might be on that platform, all that really does help us out a ton. We thank our sponsors of the Windhealpodcast.com/redwings if you want to come to wingodcast night at the LCA. 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We’ll talk to you Sunday. Thanks for tuning in to the Wingwheel Podcast. Be sure to visit wingwheelpodcast.com where you’ll find links to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You’ll also find ways to support the show like Patreon, official podcast merchandise, and more. And don’t forget to follow us on X at Wingwheel Pod, at Ryan Hannah WWP, at Brad Krisco, and at Hockeytown Evan, as well as Wing Wheel Podcast on Instagram. This message is brought to you by Greenlight Lending. Are you facing financial red lights on your home ownership journey? Don’t have money for a down payment or closing costs? Struggling with your current mortgage payment or other debt obligations? Or maybe you have a complicated situation like credit challenges or self-employment income. At Greenlight Lending, they turn those red lights green with creative mortgage solutions for purchase and refinance loans. 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WWP NIGHT w/ the DETROIT RED WINGS (Nov. 15th vs. BUF) TICKETS:
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We’re joined on this remote episode of the Winged Wheel Podcast by none other than Max Bultman of The Athletic Detroit & WWP Contributor!

Tune in as we open by discussing the Detroit Red Wings assigning Michael Brandsegg-Nygard to the Grand Rapids Griffins of the AHL, how his season has compared to the likes of Emmitt Finnie and Axel Sandin-Pellikka, what this means for Nate Danielson and Carter Mazur, MBN’s path back to Hockeytown, and more.

Next, we recap Dylan Larkin, Alex DeBrincat, and the Detroit Red Wings beating Kyrou and the St. Louis Blues for the second consecutive game, including big plays from Soderblom and Rasmussen, Hamonic fighting Schenn, Gibson netting another win, Raymond and DeBrincat on the scoresheet, & more as McLellan’s squad improves to 7-3-0.

After that, Max Bultman covers notable stories in Detroit, including Dylan Larkin & Emmitt Finnie combining for one of the best starts in the NHL, Alex DeBrincat playing better than the goals show, Moritz Seider and Simon Edvinsson playing together again, Marco Kasper’s slow start, & more. Also, Carter Mazur’s injury and what that could mean for his future, before we jump into some NHL notes (including Cooley and Harley contracts) & take your questions and comments in our Overtime segment – enjoy!

Intro: 00:00

MBN to the AHL: 3:30

STL Game Recap: 11:15

Larkin, Finnie, & Red Wings Notes: 29:50

Mazur Injury: 53:45

NHL News: 56:35

Overtime: 1:01:50

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