Ultimate Guide to the Pirates’ Offseason with Jason Mackey

Ultimate Guide to the Pirates’ Offseason with Jason Mackey

Welcome to Bucks Bounty. We are off air playing with fun hats and different things. I got Matt Caps and I got the famous Mackey. Mackey, what is up? Cappy, what is up? How are we doing? We’re going to talk some shop today. Well, I appreciate it. All is good here. I’m in uh sunny, freezing cold Atlanta, Georgia. Yeah. What’s the weather like down there right now? I woke up this morning and it was 27. What? It’s not even that cold here. Unseasonably cold, but it’s supposed to be back up in the 70s on Friday, so everybody will be sick, you know. Great. That’s perfect. Yeah. What about you, Mackey? What’s up? I’m doing great, man. I’m in Pittsburgh. It’s uh unseasonably cold here. I hate the seasons. I hate I hate it being cold. I wish it was warm, but uh it’s great to talk to you fellas. We got a special blend of uh something going on today. I love it. We do. And and and Cappy wants to kick this off with with a question. He didn’t think you were a quitter. Neither did I. So, we got to ask Cappy, take it away, man. What’s that question? Yeah, Jason, super glad to have you back on the beat. Uh but really the the question that’s eating at everybody’s heart is why’d you quit? Because I’m a quitter. Because I just can’t I just couldn’t handle it, Matt. I couldn’t handle the pressure. I got scared. I panicked and uh you know now now I’m back. So no, I I think everybody knows by now. You know, I just programmed in my head that I had to get to become a columnist and that’s some sort of like greater mythical land. And it’s not. I missed baseball. I missed my people. I missed you guys. I missed the Pirates. I missed writing about the team. I I it’s just who I am, what I’ve become, what I’ve always been. I don’t know. It makes me happy. So I I got to a point of I don’t want to fight it anymore and we had an opportunity to go back and I’m still a quitter. I I guess I’m still No, we just problem now, baby. Have to have to bust your chops a little bit because we missed you last year. Uh it’s always nice to have you on the road and around the ballpark. Although you were still around the ballpark quite a bit, but uh didn’t see you on the road like we had got accustomed to the last few years. Yeah. So glad to have you back, man. Honestly, because of you two guys, because of I don’t know, Greg or Joe or Bralty and you know that Don Donnie Kelly like Shelty what he was I it doesn’t matter. It’s just it’s all a bunch of good people. You try to win baseball games, we’ll speak. We’ll speak critically. They should be crit, you know, all that stuff is independent. But man, it’s a good team to cover, good team to be around. Good people. Well, I’m gonna speak for both of us. I think we’re both extremely excited to have you back. Um you’re fun to talk shop with. We’ve done a lot together in the past and I kind of want to open it up with kind of what in your mind is going on. We’re probably having the slowest roll out in history when it comes to putting together a full staff. I just watched Atlanta with Walt Weiss and Kappy’s right in the middle of Atlanta. So, he’ll know exactly what I’m talking about. He has 10 coaches already. I mean, it was just a snap of the fingers a week later. This guy’s got 10 coaches and they’re from all over. I mean, you’re talking about he’s grabbing guys from Colorado, Baltimore, everywhere. What’s going on? What’s the latest that you’ve heard about? What are some names that you’ve heard about and where’s this going to go? I’d love the first hire with pitching coach, but we still need assistant pitching coach. Yeah, I’m not worried about that for I mean I I think that like I love love love Bill Murphy as a hireer. Um when they moved on from Oscar, I didn’t quite get it. I didn’t know what they were going for and then I see the hire and then I think, okay, that’s it. I I don’t know if we know the assistant. Like I mean they haven’t introduced the main guy. Yeah, true. But based on what the main guy is and how he’s operated, um I I think they’re going to be fine. This guy knows pitching. The Astros know pitching. You know, they’re one I it would be hard to have a higher opinion of the Astros and pitching than I already do. But I think we’re going to get some news soon, guys. I think we’re going to get some news this week. That’s my understanding. Um I know a little bit why it was delayed. I can’t say it anywhere. Um there was a good reason. Maybe it will come out in time. Um, but there there was a reason. It wasn’t like a lack of communication or I don’t know what I’m doing. Like it was completely outside the baseball that delayed this. I know that much. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, like I I really do think the people that you put the head of a team really kind of direct that engine properly. And I feel like when Donnie take took over last year, and I want to get Ball’s opinions on this, I feel like there was a shift immediately. And what me and Stephen talked about a lot this year was the communication side of it. I thought Donnie Kelly, maybe because he was a bench player, maybe because he was the communicator for Shelton, he had a different ability to connect with these guys. And especially when it came to the bullpen, the way he was able to organize that and talk to these guys, make sure they understood where they stood. Honestly, I felt like that made us take a ne next next step forward and that should go into next year and the staff he’s hiring. Oh, you want me to take that? Talk over you. No, I mean I I think you’re right for Donniey’s a great communicator, but the the term that really jumps out for me with Donnie Kelly is relatability. Yeah. Uh his ability to relate with everybody one through 26 on that roster. um that just does so much for guys in a clubhouse to know that you know your manager knows what you’re going through on a day-to-day basis and you know his ability to kind of sympathize with guys through the ups and downs of 162 game season. There’s a ton of value in that. Uh baseball is a hard hard game. We you know that as well as I do fort it it you can’t you can’t have a bunch of showanis just make it look easy day in day out on both sides of the ball. Um you know and and Donnie was one of those guys that he had to scrap and claw for everything he had. he had to fight for everything he had and he also saw the value of just being a good dude um and the opportunities that that can create and I think that’s translated really really well uh for him and his coaching career um as a first base coach and then doing other things in the infield and uh base running and things like that you know now to the bench or then to the bench coach with the Pirates and now the manager of the Pirates. um having the those experiences to fall back on, the relatability, like I said, and then being able to communicate with his players. Um it was fun to watch the the second half of last year once Donnie took over and I’m so glad that uh that he’s a guy that’s going to be leading this team for the next several years, hopefully next 15 years. Um but, you know, the fact that he’s a Pittsburgh guy, too, is just a the cherry on top. Yeah. to kind of build on that fort. I mean, I think there’s an opportunity here for Donnie to hire some people who see the game the way he does, some people that he’s experienced with. Um, I’ll throw out a couple names, and I think both of you guys will really like the first one. Tony Beasley, tell me why he doesn’t fit somewhere on that staff. Like, I I mean, knows the Pirates, knows other things. Um, hugely respectable, been around the game forever. like I have yet to hear somebody say a bad word about him. Can coach third base or can sit next to Donnie has so much perspective on the game. Another guy I think about is Gary Pettis that was the third base coach in Houston whenever Donnie was there as first base coach and was with the Astros a long time. Uh I believe he spent 2025 out of baseball. And if he’s looking to get back in, I don’t know. I don’t know him personally. But you know, they need some outfield help. They need somebody to get through to O’Neal Cruz. guy won five gold gloves and has developed some other outfielders in Houston. I don’t see why you wouldn’t give him a call. I mean, you certainly have some internal candidates like Chris Trouy getting elevated. Um, I think the world of Mo, Steven Morales, like you know, he manages plenty of experience in that realm. Um, who Shawn Bowman, Miggy Perez, like you know, definitely some guys you’d want to talk to that are already on the staff. Maybe you elevate them. But um I I think it worked out really well having a nice balance like Gene Lamont right there. I don’t think Gene’s going to be back. No. Um you balance out having a veteran old school perspective with we know the Pirates love their numbers and they want to you know do things in an analytics realm. To me the best thing is marrying the two and balancing each side out. I think they both have valid points. Just don’t go too crazy with either one of them. And so I I think Donnie has the opportunity to create a staff that kind of fits those different things. So I want to stay on one thing you said before we get to the analytic side. Tyreek Brock at first base, he’s the outfield and base running coach. You bring in another guy. In my opinion, I think you need a coach for each. Um so that way that focus can be more narrowed in. I’ve sat in the meetings before a game and I’ve heard Tyreek Brock go through the entire scouting report on the defensive side and then also have to do the base running. That takes so much time. And the reality of it is we we kicked out our player strategist or game analyst, whatever you want to call him. Um at the end of the day, and I think if you could have these roles kind of more specific, I’m to I’m with you, Mackey. Hiring a guy that’s has some gold gloves to kind of give a different look in the outfield. he has someone to look at with Tyrick Brock for some help. But then you have Tyrick Brock just focus on base running because to Matt’s point, we’re not going to have a show Otani two, three in the lineup when we have three MVPs like LA does. We have to produce runs. We have to get creative. So the more guys we can have at looking at those little things, I think is better. Is that kind of your thought process? Being able to pull from every direction to score runs and also prevent runs. Yes. Um, I can take that one. I I think that’s part of the reason why they did what they did with Bill Murphy. Like, if you can slice half a run off the RA, I mean, your your upside with the offense, I think, is only going to be so high. You’re not going to go out and buy, you know, Kyle Schwarber and or Otani or Kyle Tucker or whatever. Like, you’re just not going to get those players. Okay. But you need to create separation. You know, lessen the number of runs you’re giving up, score a few more. Um, I also look at it like this for I mean O’Neal Cruz is a gigantic storyline with this team. Literally huge. You have to figure him out. He has to be playable defensively. He was okay defensively. Has he reached his potential or anywhere near it? Of course not. But I thought he had a great I thought he had a great second half. He made some He had he made some mental mistakes that didn’t like show uh very well for the fans, but analytically he did have a great second half. He did. He did. But he also had some major stuff that you can’t have. And he was terrible at the plate. Like whether he was worn down or not, like that you can’t I guys, he’s a four-war player, a five war player. Like that’s the potential he has. And I don’t even know if he was a one-ar player last year. Like that just can’t happen. I I like I want somebody, this is my own personal feeling, like I want a veteran player who’s challenging him. I want somebody on the staff who’s in his face challenging him like this kid can be great. There’s no reason to take a casual approach with this kid because you’re looking that’s the biggest dial for improvement that you can turn on the Pirates. They’re not going to sign a four or five war player, but they can fix one in their own clubhouse if they do this right. Amen. Amen. What do you think about that? No. No, I agree. I mean, I think he’s an integral part of this lineup. Uh for me with O’Neal Cruz, it’s engagement. Um, and you know, to stay on what what Jason just said, a staff member or a player, I was yelling and screaming to bring Carlos Santana back a couple of years ago. Yes. Um, I thought the accountability there um that uh that he kind of kept O’Neal in check a little bit, kept him engaged. This is how we work. And, you know, that Latinon Latin um interface matters. Uh, you know, whether we want to admit it or not. and position guy. It’s going to be hard for for a pitcher uh to be that guy that that holds O’Neal accountable or any position player for that matter. Um so I thought Carlos Santana was great in the short period of time he was here with the younger guys. Um and then at the time, you know, we we had a hole at first base. It seemed like a great fit. I don’t know why it didn’t work out. My understanding was they tried. Um, but somebody like that uh would be great to bring into this clubhouse. Um, that plays every day, you know, yeah, we’re not going to get a a Kyle Schwarber type player, Otani type player, but a guy that’s in the upper echelon that, you know, is maybe a little bit older, 33, 34, 35 years old, still has a couple of years ahead of him that maybe you could get on a two-year deal or a three-year deal. And I think there’s value to guys like that for coming and playing on a team that that has a Paul Skins on it. Um that has uh a Braxton Ashcraft guys like that that um you know they look at the pitching staff and it goes well wait a minute there’s some pieces on the offensive side. If I can come in and I can be you know kind of that stability piece that missing link the Pittsburgh Pirates can be really good. Yep. So, that’s I’d like to see more so than a coach. There’s ton of value in the right coach, but a player that is still actively doing it and doing it at a high level. Uh, that’s what I want to see him try to go get. He got him and he’s done it again. Welcome to Unobstructed View. We’re at BP. We’re going to get the inside look. Once you start loving each other, you start fighting for each other. Welcome to coach’s quarter. And he’ll admire it and so will we. Is that too much to ask for? Oh, baby. Okay. So, we’re going to lead into that, Mackie. Okay. You you can look at the uh the team that we ended with last year. Let’s go from the infield to the outfield with both you guys. We’ll go back and forth. Where do we need improvement? Where can we get improvement like O’Neal Cruz with maybe internal improvement where I feel like Henry Davis has more in the tank? I’ll start there. This guy can hit better. He will hit better because he’s proven it on the defensive side. Now that he has a full year under his belt, if he doesn’t do it, I would say relatively quickly next year, then we could start talking about what are we going to do with this guy. But he showed huge improvement defensively. He was drafted for his bat. If you go back and look at his scouting report and what everyone’s saying, can’t miss bat is one thing that pops in my head over and over again. Big league bat, big league understanding at the plate. Just constantly all these scouts, they can’t all be wrong. They were all wrong in his defense, but I really don’t believe they’re going to be all wrong in his offense. So, I’ll start with that catching spot. I’ll hand it over to you, Mackey. Both of you guys pitched and then we’ll work around the diamond because I don’t feel like we’re far off. I genuinely don’t. I’ve never seen a team with that type of pitching and the ability to play this good a defense that we could play because we played the old school defense as good as anybody since Donnie took over. Right. We made all the plays. Now you’re talking about a little bit of shift here, a little bit of shift there. Seeing Brian Reynolds continue to do what he did. Welcome back, Kappy. Um, and I think good things are going to happen, right? So, Mackey, now that Cappy’s back, take it away in the sense of whether you want to start a catcher, which I’d love to hear your thoughts because we got kind of a weird array coming up, right? We have Andy Rodriguez, who’s going to be coming back from injury. Big huge question mark. Joey Bart, who had a down season and did not do well defensively. We have the new cat from the Yankees. Ginormous human being. Doesn’t move well behind the plate. Hasn’t thrown out guys in the minor league level, but he showed out pretty well in a very small stint. And I love his approach at the plate. I think he’s a first baseman personally. And then we have Henry Davis, who in my opinion is starting the year as the starter right now until they do something different. Man, I got so many thoughts for it. I I got 92 stored up. I’m gonna try to Let’s go blast. Give me 90. You got it. Um, all right. Let’s go Henry Davis. He’s my starter to begin the year. I gotta give him the opportunity. One-1 pick. He’s my best and maybe only defensive catcher on the staff. I don’t love Joey Bart as a defensive catcher. I’m going to give Henry the opportunity to figure it out. I don’t know how long I can run with him hitting 150. Correct. But I’m going to give him a chance. Um, I do believe in him. It It’s going to come to a point where I can’t accept 150. Like, yeah, I don’t care what your defense even if you’re winning because Yeah, even if you’re winning, right? Like I mean there’s a point of no return. Like you can find a better version, but I mean if he’s going to win a gold glove, I can have you hit 150, but he’s probably not going to win a gold glove. Um here’s what I’ve been banging this drum for a while. And I don’t I don’t know why. I mean, I sort of know why this hasn’t happened. Joey Bart needs to play some first base. Yes. Um that happened in spring training. My understanding was that like in season it was just too much of an ask. like you kind of flirt with it, but it’s not it it’s not something that that they really wanted to tackle in season. I get and respect that. No excuses for spring training. I I would have a first baseman’s glove sitting there the very first day at Pirate City because he platoon perfectly with Spencer Horowitz. Yes, Joey Bart crushes left-handed pitching. Spencer Horitz crushes right-handed pitching. There’s no reason why you can’t alleviate, you know, a log jam with Henry Davis and Joey Bart behind the plate. play the other one at first base. It might be able to maximize your roster. You get another guy on there. I don’t know. But I’m trying to put both of these guys in the best position to succeed. And that does that for them. That does that for the Pirates. It gets your better defensive catcher in the lineup more often. Gives them an opportunity to play. Gets Bart’s bat in the lineup. I think Bart might have to DH if he gets hot. There’s really nowhere else to go. Or you’re benching Henry. I’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. I hope I have a problem where I have two catchers who are hitting. We’ll solve that. Um well real quick to that point Mackey is Bart really hasn’t I mean this year he got 300 and something at bats I believe is where he ended at like 350. I mean that’s the most at bats he ever had and he was still beat up. He has not shown the ability to stay healthy. So I think being able to keep him healthy, we saw how good he was down the stretch, but it was after a two week stent or a week stent of concussion protocols he comes back. It’s like he gets rejuvenated. So, I think keeping him off, you know, off his knees, on his feet a little bit more is only going to help him. That leads me, I want to finish out with Indie. So, I always look back at that 2023 season, I believe it was, it may have been 2022 where he just flew through, right? Started in Braon, kind of what we saw our superhuman do in Connor Griffin, he just jumped through the minor leagues like everything was easy, but he did it playing second base, third base, first base, outfield, and caught. Is that his best role? Because it seemed like one, he stayed healthy. Two, it seemed like he hit so much better. And I have a huge reason why there, but we could talk about that another time. Mackey, like I feel like that is his best role is let him come in and be that super utility bat. Let’s see if we can get that bat going because if not, he’s going to triple AAA. That’s that’s the reality. I’d send him to TripleA anyway for I would too, but would you send him a trip AAA as the everyday catcher or a guy trying to get 500 bats? I’d send him as the everyday catcher as long as my medical people and he told me that things were okay. If there was any sort of deterioration of the elbow, I’m pulling the plug. But I’m going to give him the chance to catch because I think I think he’s probably their best defensive catcher. Like if you told me his elbow was fine, like if if it’s just he’s never going to have an elbow problem, I think he’s their best defensive option. But I just I don’t know if he can hit. I don’t know if he can stay healthy. I love the kid. I love the personality. I need him to see I need him to play games and I want him to go to Triple A and I want him to beat down the door and show me that he can he can do this and then if he does then I’m going to have a decision to make. Yeah. Maybe I play him at first. I switch hitter. I can I can put him on either side. Compliment Horowits. Whatever it is, I know I can play him other positions. Like I feel like that’s much easier to do. He’s got that in his background. If I have to move him to right field or second base or first base because, you know, this Henry Davis, Joey Bart situation is just too good, great. I I I would be thrilled to have that problem and to teach him a new position. I think he can learn it. But I would I’d give him the chance to catch anyway. Okay, Cathy, I’ll let you start off on third base. Uh we kind of hit first and catcher right there. So third base is Jared Tayelo our best go-to third baseman. Do we go get somebody? Do we move Nick Gonzalez to third is is another thought I’ve heard over and over again. What is your thought on third base? You know, when you get cold down here in in Georgia, uh trees fall. So, the whole street’s internet is down. Um but it is what it is. So, I’m I’m outside. We’ll see if that’s any better. Um, with with Triolo, I would say it’s his job to lose. Yeah. Uh, if he’s hitting, you know, and and I I said a lot on air um with Jared Triolo. Maybe the initial step is not quite as good as K Brian Hayes, but you really don’t lose a lot defensively with with Triolo and and Key Brian at third base after that after that trade when we saw him consistently. Um, would I like to see him go get somebody? Uh, who who was I reading about a lot during the playoffs? Suarez. Would love to see him go get Suarez. Uh, or somebody like that. That’d be amazing. But, um, I think Triolo is a really nice option as your starting third baseman. And, um, we just got to get him swinging the bat, you know, and and you can deal with, um, you can deal with a a 200, low 200’s batting average with a little bit of pop every now and then. Uh, as a utility guy that can play, it can give you a plus defense at multiple places, but as your starting third baseman, I need to see a little more consistency at the plate. What do you think, Mackey? You like that? They got it. No, I mean, I I like some of what Matt said. I like the idea of adding somebody. I’m not as a third baseman. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I guess if you would add a shortstop and play Triolo at third. I’m going to go ahead and stop you on the shortstop thing. So, just stay on the third because Yeah, I know. You have Conor Griffin coming. He should like if if I could do anything this off seasonason for it. I know this is a separate discussion for us, I’d sign her Conor Griffin to a long-term extension and make him my opening day short. I was literally going to start the next little part with that. M That’s a no-brainer. It’s a norainer. He should start to he and if everything goes well and I’m going to get on my little soap box here, but if everything goes well in spring training, it will be obvious he’s the starting shortstop day one, not day 10, not two months in trying to play the system, it’s going to be day one because if he gets enough opportunity, you can’t take it away because the one thing to both of you guys, uh, like talking about Conor Griffin, I did not see the defense being this good. He was a gold glove defender in the minor leagues. Yep. Yep. That was something I could not have predicted, especially at a premier position at shortstop. I thought this was guy was gonna be 1,000% an outfielder without a doubt. I saw him play at 17 and 18 and I was like, “This guy’s Yeah, he still could be, but the fact that he could be a gold glove caliber shortstop’s a joke. It is an absolute joke.” Well, I mean, we’ve seen He reminds me so much of Whit Junior. I mean, he really does, but he’s bigger. Yeah, that’s ex that’s exactly it for there have been guys around baseball absolute freaks that get up here as teenagers. The Pirates would be wrong to deny this guy the opportunity. I understand like if spring doesn’t go well and he needs more time by all means. I am not going to shoehorn him in here if he’s not ready and that’s not a bad thing. Take all the time you need, Connor. You’re still way ahead of schedule. But I’m not going to stop him either. And if there’s an opportunity to come together on a contract and get him up here as part of it, man, if I’m running the team, I’m doing that. I understand, as much as I want to see them spend money in free agency, and I do, I understand how, you know, their push back would be like, we’re not getting bang for the buck or it’s not efficient spending or whatever. There’s somewhat of an argument there. There is an argument there. Take it away. Yes. I mean, I I I still don’t like it. Like, if you’re if you’re going to prioritize 2026 and you have holes, which they do, and you have deficiencies, which they do, you need to spend and fix them if you don’t have an internal solution. So, I’m not trying to explain away like any sort of lack of spending. I’m just saying like I feel really good about spending the money to keep Connor Griffin in a Pittsburgh Pirates uniform for a long time. To me, that’s money well spent and that is a gamble I’m willing to make. You know, in a way, I’m bummed that they didn’t do it with Paul SK. It’s too late now. Whatever. It’s a special case, I guess, because he’s a pitcher position player. Uh-uh, man. I’m I’m trying to get the guy here for a long time, and that’s a makeup I’m betting on. And I’m going to use this. This is one option, a Roman Anthony, right? It’s a huge deal, but you’re talking about eight years, 130 million. You It’s not a huge deal if he performs for it. Correct. But there’s also 4% extra taxes there. So, you can actually do it for less money, right? Give him some incentives and you can make it work. But you’re talking about it really isn’t much money, especially the way it’s kind of going up. his annual value is still worth way less than what the qualifying offer is what $22 million, right? He’s going to be on the open market. He could end up being a 30 $40 million a year player. If you’re smart now, you can get him for 10, 12, 15, something like that. AAV, like that’s a gamble, right? Like he could also get hurt and be done forever or he could not be very good. You’re taking a risk. But are you comfortable looking at Connor Griffin, his ability on the field, his makeup, his parents, what he’s about, what he puts into this, and taking that risk? Like, I’m not sure there are two better bets in life for that sort of stuff to come to fruition than Conor Griffin and Paul Ske. Agreed. And I I would bet on Skins if I could. I can’t. I don’t think that’s an option. Yeah. If if Connor Griffin’s an option, man, please. And Maddie, this leads me to that question before we kind of finish out the infield. The fact that if you did that, think about the snowball effect it has on the fans, it shows commitment. I’ve said over and over again, there’s obviously a lot of people talking about the last actual two-year contract was Ivon Nova in 2015. That’s a long time ago. 16, excuse me. Either way, we’ll say 15 because it sounds a little bit worse. So, in 2015 was the last two-year contract. There’s something to be said about Roots. And Maddie, you played for the Twins. The Twins, you know, collectively for me during my generation was the team that people didn’t talk about enough because they had a real team and I feel like that’s what the Pirates have to do. But they went all in on their Joe Mau, their uh Kadi, their Matt Caps, their Lroy Hawkins. Everybody was there for at least two years. It wasn’t just a run of a race of new free agents, new people, new new uh staff. It was It was like they were trying to create a family, a culture. Yeah, they created a culture. I was just about to say a culture. Yeah. Take that away because that’s what we need in my opinion. It is culture. Culture matters. And and you know, a Major League Baseball clubhouse is no different than any other office setting or classroom setting or work environment. Um people generally are more productive when they like going to work. Um you know, Major League Baseball has a job for those 26 guys in that clubhouse. And uh when you have that group of guys that you essentially you take the mindset of I’m going to war for you uh it works out a lot better and and you know to stay on the twins like what you were talking about with Fort when I got over there um I was a small piece of the puzzle. Um you know the guys they had locked up now these are these are big names. One of them two of them a hall of famer but uh you know Joe Mau was uh was signing a long-term deal to to be a twin forever. Uh Jim Tomy was there, just a great culture clubhouse guy and he fit that model of late 30s, tail end of his career, but still able to produce and um really embrace that older guy, good guy in baseball. Um did he had a presence too, right? H just a little bit of one. Yeah, just a little bit of one. But like, you know, Tomy’s Tomy’s an anomaly. He’s a unicorn. Uh they they don’t make them like that anymore. Um, I don’t know that they made many of them before his time. He’s just all the way around the greatest. Um, but he would bend over backwards to do anything for anybody. It didn’t matter if you were uh in your first week in the big leagues or you were like me, you’d had five, six years under your belt and had some success. Um, he was there to help and he wanted to give his guidance and his toutelage. uh he had more know you know but the glue that kept everything together was Michael Kadire and he was a guy that lifelong twin drafted developed came up with him uh he was the piece on the field and in the clubhouse that did everything and anything that was needed of him. Um and performance-wise Cuddy you know had a better track record at the plate could be like a Jared Triolo. Uh, you know, all of a sudden our first baseman, Justin Mono, goes down. Uh, Kaddire literally the next day is taking ground balls at first base. The first time in his life he’d put a first baseman mid on. And he was our starting first baseman that night and the rest of the year and through the playoffs. Um, so you need guys like that. And if you have a a Connor Griffin and a Paul Skins and I’ll even throw Brian Reynolds in there um that can be staples on your ball club and you can sprinkle in character culture guys that can produce just at league average. Hey, I think you have an opportunity to do special things in our division. No one destroys a baseball like Cruz. That is the hardest hit ball in known major league history. Pitchers should consider themselves warning and it is gone. There’s a cruise missile. Log in with your cable provider and stream the Pirates all season long on SNP 360. And that leads me to second base. Nikki G is my second baseman. Tomorrow is going to be knocking at the door. I did see a shift and Alex Presley talked about this quite a bit with me because he did a lot of games. Um he was on the call at Altuna. Got to watch the shift with Tamar when Conor Griffin showed up. How different he started to play. And that is very typical in my mind of guys that were 1-1 that have kind of been coddled. They’ve been babyed throughout the minor league like, “Oh, we’re not going to go too far in because we don’t want to mess him up and if we, you know, push him too hard, we’re going to get push back from the organization.” Well, he got his own push by watching somebody that was better than him and knowing he’s been the best guy on the field just about every night and then watching Connor Griffin take off. Then Valdez took off once Connor got there and he had stopped in the fall league. And then tomorrow all of a sudden’s running bases better, swinging the bat better, taking better bats, playing better defense, and that’s what you want to see. So I think he’s going to be knocking. But Nikki G for me is our second baseman to start the year. Then I could see him floating over to third because of that bat. He’s going to play a little bit louder. Yeah, I’m mostly with that for I need Nicki G to hit more than he did. We’re talking about a 675 career OPS, 87 OPS plus. Like I I think there’s more in there. And I sort of put him in the Henry Davis category. Like I’m going to let you try. We invested a lot in you. I’m not going to stop you from trying, but if it’s not there, I’m not going to be afraid to go to Tamar Johnson. I’m not going to be afraid. I think this is sort of an outside weird possibility, but if we’re talking about Bart and first base and what happens with Spencer Horowitz, like Spencer Horowitz has some familiarity with second base. Um, I don’t I don’t love that option if we’re being honest. Um, I also hope that they trade for Brandon Laauo and that’s a separate conversation, but he can play some second base. Um, I love that idea. Long long story short, I I need to see more from Nick Gonzalez than he did last season. Um, I’m going to give him the ability to do it. And Tamar Johnson, I really liked what he did from August 1st on, guys. 843 OPS, hit 326. I wasn’t there. I’ll trust Alex Presley on what he saw. But, uh, whatever the case was, he finally started producing. And, you know, he’s another guy. Start him at Triple A. And I want to see I want to see him play his way up here. And the sooner he can get here, the better. You need offense. I think it’s a different case than pitchers. But um yeah, he just needs to harness what happened over the last two months. And I’ve heard a lot of evaluators and I believe this too about Tamar. I think he’ll be a better hitter at the big league level. Um I genuinely do. He just he profiles like that. He always has. I think he’s going to play up to his uh his competition. I hate I hate saying that about guys, but it is a reality. Matt Holiday never hit above 260 in the minor leagues. He got to the big leagues. He got silver slugger. So, you never know what you’re going to have really until they get thrown in the fire. And he’s a guy that you can throw him in the fire because of his athletic ability. He’s kind of going to give you a boost in a lot of ways because he’s very athletic. He’s going to play pretty good defense. He’s a intelligent base runner. He takes good at bats. Even when his bad days are going, he’s still going to walk. So, there’s an advantage there. So, I’m with you, Mackey, on that. Yeah. I I like what Mackey said right there. uh I’m not going to get in his way, you know, and and we need to be that as an organization. We need to have that mindset with everybody. If there’s a guy knocking on the door, um that that should put pressure. Like there’s no guarantees. I don’t care who you are. It’s the big leagues. If you’re not producing and we’ve got somebody below you that that deserves the opportunity, we need to not hesitate to make that move. I mean, that’s just that’s the nature of Major League Baseball and and life really. Um, you got to get your job done or somebody else wants it. Yep. Completely agree. Now, let’s go on the bump before we go to the outfield. Um, I think it’s the most intriguing thing on our team. Uh, as of right now, I think if you look on paper, we’re really special. You have Bubba, you have Skins, you have Ashcraft, you have Burroughs, you have Keller, you have Ovido, Barcode’s in that mix. Um, what do you guys see? I thought it was really cool, but at the same time really strange how we handled really the whole entire second half. The guys that would go from the bullpen to starting back to the bullpen. That’s got to be really tiresome on the arm. Me and Cappy talked about that quite a bit. But I do think it gives you a really good understanding what these guys are capable of. So, how do they run this? Is Keller going to be a pirate? Is is something everybody’s asking? No. And if so, like why in your mind? I think he should be uh I think you don’t have to rush this thing. Um let it prove itself to be and then you can trade him at any point. You can trade him in May. I think people forget like it doesn’t have to happen during the offseason. You can make sure things are running smoothly and then let it go if that’s what you want to do. But what’s your guys thought on that whole entire starting staff moving forward? And are they going to take off the handcuffs? Yeah, I I think it depends on what you can get for Mitch Keller in the offseason. Um yeah, it’s going to be big. I I kind of lean towards you for it. I you can never have too much pitching and you know Mitch Keller uh has shown us spurts throughout the course of what the last seven years of oh my goodness there’s there’s greatness in there and then he’s shown us some other spurts of of inconsistency. But I’m a I’m a big fan of Mitch Keller. Um Ashcraft, Burroughs, Chandler Barco. Um, I guess Burroughs actually debuted two years ago, but but the guys that came up to the major league level this I was not a fan of starting him in the bullpen and I was boisterous about that. Um, but it worked out. You know, they proved me wrong. Um, you know, my concerns on that are are more on the mental side than the physical side of starting putting a starting pitcher in the bullpen and and letting them get their feet wet. I feel like it’s uh it’s ripping the band-aid off twice. C. Cappy, real quick. What about what about the fact that they they didn’t do this with with uh Bubba, but they did this with Ashcraft and Burroughs. The back and forth that that drove me insane. Like I I understand the thought of throwing these guys out there because they’re trying to figure out who does fit out there, but like you’re right, the mentality, but also the physicality of that. Trying to go back and forth is really, really hard. Yeah. I mean, I was talking about the the mental side more so of starting in the bullpen and then like, you know, getting going, but yeah, the back and forth mid-season can be physically demanding as well. Uh, the thing all these guys have for going for them is they’re in their mid20s. Their bodies recover. I mean, this is not something you can do throughout the course of a year. I don’t believe um and have a long, you know, relatively healthy career. I think it’s just going to wear uh too much and we can’t forget they’re human beings with human emotions and you know routines come into that and and being comfortable in those situations and you know about the time you get comfortable with a bullpen routine you’re thrown into the starting rotation and you got to figure that out again and then you know you you make five, six, seven starts and you get into that routine and your midweek routine and things like that. Oh, I need you to go to the bullpen like it can happen in short spurts. Uh, we see it in the playoffs and we see guys do it really well in the playoffs. Um, not going to bring up Yamamoto Yamamoto because that was not really not really of the human nature to do what he did in six and seven. But, um, you need to let these guys find a way to let these guys settle in. Um, you know, who the starting five is going to be, I don’t know. I I don’t know that there’s room for all five of those guys. uh if Mitch color is still around and maybe that’s part of the thought process, but I do like the idea of if you can’t I wouldn’t settle if you can’t get what you want or more than what you want for Mitch Keller, um go to spring training with him because you never know with pitching. Amen. And and every year, March, April, even early May, uh you see things sneak up on clubs and all of a sudden they’re in trouble. what you thought you had depth uh and you traded away from it. Now you now you’re short on it. So um I wouldn’t mind seeing Mitch in spring training. I would love it. Yes. Sorry. Sorry. All on the same page. Yes. No. No. I mean Yeah. I I shouldn’t say I wouldn’t mind. I Yeah. I’m a big fan of Mitch Keller personally and professionally and I I think he’s got a ways to go to get better. Um, and I hope Murphy can can help him with that and be one of those guys that really helps him take the next step uh in his career. I didn’t finish my point. I don’t I don’t think Keller’s going to be a pirate. I I want to see him. I just I agree, but I hate it. I mean, here here’s where I’m coming at, and this is not a criticism of Mitch whatsoever. Again, I’m going to be bummed if he’s traded. I I really like the guy, but the Pirates need to add offense. Um I wish the Pirates would increase payroll precipitously over what it was last year. That probably ain’t going to happen. So, how do you add offense? You’re going to have to, you know, internally develop some options. And I think that’s to a degree. I think you could see some of that, but I think you’re probably going to have to give up something to get something. And you know, you’re probably going to have to move salary out to bring salary in. I I think I mean, you know, if you keep Mitch, you can move a young pitcher and get a hitter back certainly. I mean, that’s going to up your payroll. I wish that wasn’t a factor. I wish that wasn’t a thing, but I I think Mitch, I mean, he’s been an all-star. He’s a pro. He’s a consistent starting pitcher. Th those guys aren’t everywhere. you know, even a guy like a Burroughs or an Ovido, like there’s there’s uncertainty there. I really like the guy. I really like the stuff. I I I love watching him pitch, but there’s a lot more certainty with Mitch Keller. If I’m an opposing GM, I value that. So, you can add Ashcraft into that mix because last year was his first healthy season ever. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. About the uncertainty. Yeah. About You don’t know what you’re getting. Like, and that’s why Mitch’s value is so high. Mitch, you know, you’re getting 32 starts, 200 innings. I’m going to get professional outings. Like, yeah. The second half is a concern. Certainly, I’m going to try to address that. Like, that’s not nothing. It’s been three seasons, same thing everyone. But, I’m willing to pay for that if I’m a pitching needy team. Um, Colin Beasley and I would were talking about this, I think this morning or last week or something, like the Angels pair up really well with like Taylor Ward and Joe Adell, they’ve got bats, they don’t have pitching. The Orioles, like Jordan Westber, you want to add a third base option, okay, great. They need pitching. Like there’s so many pitching hungry teams and if that’s what the Pirates are peddling and they need bats, they can probably get a bat back. Like I just think the trade makes too much sense. I’m not I’m not wishing for it. I don’t want it, but I just think it makes too much sense. So I want to go I want to go to let’s stay on that topic with Mitch Keller and in the sense of a trade finding a bat for this team. For me it is all left-handed. Yes. You gota go Yeah. because of our ballpark. You can if you want to, you can go do the research. Every right-hander that walks into our ballpark is about 11 points negative when it comes to their OPS based on our ballpark factor. So, a right-handed power hitter like a Suarez or anybody that’s right-handed, they don’t want to come here and rightfully so, right? We have less extra base hits and we have less home runs than any ballpark on the planet just about. So, the fact is, if you’re right-handed, you do not want to be here unless you’re Stling Marte, Andrew McCutchen in his prime hitting balls out to right center field, but it hasn’t even flown well that way over the last four to five years. So, left-handed bat Mackey, is there a guy that you see matching up, whether it’s that corner outfield spot or maybe second base, first base to platoon with uh um some of these guys? I don’t know. Like I haven’t looked into this that much. There’s guys up there I like. I I’m sure and that’s why I’m bringing it up to you that would fit in all scenarios because I think the Orioles to to your point. I think Seattle plays too um because they’re going to have to drop salary on their end when it comes to that starting pitching and they’re going to want an innings eater because they have some uncertainty. So who who are some names that you could throw out there that you see that could fit? Oh boy. All right. So, one of the ones I like the most for it, and I’m going through my notes here. I like that one. Who? You dropped a Brandon Low earlier. Yeah, Brandon Laauo. Absolutely. I mean, it’s a left-handed power bat. Um, I’m flipping through Alec Bone, but he’s not left-handed. Um, I’m trying. But he fits our ballpark. He fits our ballpark. Yeah. I mean, LA was line drive hitter. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Like, he’s coming off 31 home runs. Twice hit more than 30. He’s in the final year of his deal. But and you’re gonna have to give to get like I don’t think the Tampa Bay Rays make many stupid trades. Um Max Kepler is another guy. I believe he would be a free agent ad but you know the Pirates. He’s a huge risk though, right? For me he’s a risk. Yeah. He’s he’s a typical signing that we’ve done in the past. Yeah. Chance. I don’t think that’s a bad thing though. Like Michael Conforto is another one. He hit 199 on a deal with the Dodgers. Left off the play playoff roster, but like two years ago he was really good. It’s a left-handed bat. Could he come in here and do something? Yeah, I think that’s what they’re going to be pedaling. I like Cedric Mullins. He’s another one that makes sense. Mullins is a is one of my top favorites. But if you’re gonna go guys that, you know, have some like the skills are not diminished, but they need an opportunity to prove themselves. Like Cedric Mullins not long ago was a five tool player and was really good. And he brings a defensive element that the other guys don’t have as much. Well, and I would not drop him in center field. I’d put I put him in left. Me, too. put him in left and and you make life easier for for O’Neal Cruz. You have somebody who has been in your position. They know how to play play the position like he’s he’s been around a little bit. He knows what a clubhouse should look like. I’m checking a lot of the boxes that the Pirates need to check here. You know, look at what the Orioles did from going from terrible to pretty darn good. Cedric Mullen saw it. Tell me about tell me how that looks. Position player leader. Hopefully can still play. Um that that’s the kind of thing I’m looking at, man. And like Ward in Anaheim or the LA Angels, like that that makes sense. Joe Odell, I’d listen to that one, too. Um I can’t remember off the top of my head whether they No, Ward’s a righty, huh? He’s a righty. Yeah. And And Odell, right? Odell’s right. They both righties. Yes. Uh never mind. I will say Odell has weird pop when he’s when he’s hot, so he doesn’t really count. But I’m with you. I don’t think he fits in our ballpark on an on a day-to-day basis, right? Because if you go across our division, we have a pretty hitter friendly division for righties everywhere else except our ballpark. So, if we can get some lefties, we’re going to take advantage of at home and on the road. I mean, that’s that’s the reality. So, I I want to see them add at least two bats for it. Preferably third base in the outfield. I think there’s an opportunity to do it. I’m hoping one comes in via free agency, one happens with the Mitch Keller trade or a pitcher trade. I’m not I’m not I realize they’re going to have to give pitching to get a bat. Hopefully, it’s somebody else and they can fit it all and it all works and we don’t have to give up Mitch, but um I think they’re probably going to have to give up Mitch, but you need bats. You need bats. Like, as much as any of us like Mitch Keller, you’re not going to be any good if your offense is the worst in Major League Baseball. You’re just not. And I’m gonna put this to you, Cappy, to think about this. Could you not put together a bullpin package? I mean, we we still have Holderman on the on the roster as of now. He didn’t get, you know, designated. Obviously, we have a different date coming up that they do have to maybe shift some roster if they’re going to tender contracts or whatnot, but we have Santana, we have him, we have some guys that we could move in the bullpen as well that aren’t going to be worth a ton of money, but it’s all going up. Even Joey Bart’s contract’s going to be close to $2 million, if not a little bit more. You add those three together, you’re talking about close to eight, eight, nine million um that you could get off and possibly get a bat back when we do have a pretty good stacking of young guys in the bullpen when it comes to the minor leagues as well. So, is that an option too in your in your mind, Cappy? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you’ve got some pieces and it goes back to the conversation we had earlier about some of these starters that pitched really well out of the bullpen. If there’s not room in the fiveman rotation, they shift back to the bullpen and can go to the back end of the bullpen. And you know, teams have overpaid for closers. And I think Santana’s proven that he deserves the opportunity to close. So if you get a call on Dennis Santana and um it’s a it, you know, fits a piece that that you need. Um yeah, absolutely. If um I think Carmen Majinsky can close. I think he’s got the stuff and the mentality to close. Uh Carmen Majinsky is also interesting on the trade market because it’s well known that he wants to start. So, you know, maybe you get a little bit of hybrid value um on him. A team is looking for starting pitching. Maybe they have the opportunity for him. Uh they’re they’re not going to give up the value like they would for a a more established starter, but um maybe you get more than you would for a regular seventh or eighth inning guy. um because of the experience he does have starting and and his desire to start. But um you know, the bullpen’s an important piece. You can’t decimate it and I think just piece it together. But um you know, there’s a couple of pieces down there and if you’re if you’re able to keep Mitch and you’ve got the log jam in the rotation, um you know, maybe Ashcraft is your closer or your eighth inning guy. Maybe Bubba Chandler is your closer or your eighth inning guy uh for a year or two and and see what happens. I mean um you know think about John Smoltz when he came back from Tommy John was one of the best starters in all of baseball and gets hurt and then he’s besides Mariano the best reliever in all of baseball for what a three or four year period. Can I throw a name out there for you that I would love to see do that is Jared Jones. Yes. Now I want him to be our closer of the future. That’s that’s my dream. Um, once again, if he proves healthy, I say he’d be a candidate that I would say, “Hey, we want to give you some money and we want to put you in the closer role.” Because I think that shows commitment from from the team, saying, “We’re not trying to devalue you. We’re not trying to take away your starting ability. This is where we see you fit now. We see it to be safer, and we think you’re going to dominate. We think you’re gonna be an all-star.” So, I I think he has the mentality. What I know of Jared Jones, too, he has the mentality to be a very very good back-end guy. Yeah. So, I’m I’m with you. You and I talked about that this summer. No doubt. No doubt. So, it it’s um would would actually really like to see that as well. I don’t know that I would make a move with for a Santana uh right now and expect Jared to do that coming out of spring training, but you know, maybe that’s a midsummer conversation. Agree. What do you think, Mackey? You like that? I saw you shaking your head. Yes. I mean, I like the idea of him closing games. I don’t like the idea of committing to it financially just yet. Not Not a big finance, but like I’ve watched guys coming off an injury and they have one expectation, right? Yeah. The club throws a little bit of money at them and says, “Hey, like we we see this.” And they’re more apt to fall into that. And it’s not a big dollar amount, right? It’s just saying, “Hey, your first through arbitration, you’re going to get peanuts because you’ve been hurt. we’re going to give you maybe a little bit more than what you’re worth to show that, hey, we know this is what you want to do, let’s prove this to you. And if it goes really well, maybe even have a sideline deal, which I’ve seen in the past, they don’t talk about these things to where he can sign it and if he hits those numbers, he gets that extra payday just so you have some incentive because you have to prove the point if you’re a Pirates organization to these guys that you’re not going to one just throw them out to the wind. You’re not going to trade them as soon as it happens. And two, you’re literally devaluing his career by putting him in the bullpen. You make more money as a starter, period. So, he wants to start, but if they’re winning and he’s the guy, that’s I think that’s all he wants. But I don’t have decision right now, Fort. No, but do that. You because of all the because of what they did with Karma Majitzki because they’ve proven the fact that if you speak up at all, you’re going to get an opportunity. You’ve already put yourself in a shoe box, I guess. But how much can you speak up? He’s coming back from Tommy John. Like he’s going to have monitored innings. I’ve got a built-in runway for that sort of thing. Agreed. I’m gonna say like that’s why I don’t think you need to move if you’re the Pirates. Like yeah, I don’t think you have to move. I’m saying in the future it’s a it’s a thought. I’m going to I’m going to listen to what Jared Jones does. Like how does he pitch? How does he recover? What’s the stuff look like? Um if it extends like I don’t want to stop a guy from being a starting pitcher. I want to give them the opportunity. If there are persistent issues or if the stuff doesn’t play or whatever, I mean, they have metrics for that stuff, then yeah, I might change. I might change. I I I’m going to let it play out. I’m just My only argument is I’m not going to throw money after somebody who just had Tommy John. And no offense to Jared Jones. No offense to anybody else who just had major arm surgery. Like, I’m going to give you an opportunity to come back. And I hope that you come back and I hope you make good with it. and I hope you take advantage of it and I hope you show me that you were worth the commitment and then I’m going to commit to you. But if I’m running a business like that’s a that’s a risk that I don’t feel comfortable taking. I just I’d rather spend the money on offense. They have too many other needs right now. Yeah. And I think I think you’re missing this would not go into this year’s dollar bills. This would go into the future commitment. And the reason I say that is because if he comes back and he does well, his money is going to move really fast, you know. And and that’s that’s the whole idea is if you don’t and I’ll pay arbitration, but they won’t. I don’t I don’t I don’t mind. I just Yeah. I I just disagree with you. Like I would not I would not pay money until I see what it is coming back from Tommy John. And if it’s really good, then let’s talk. That’s fantastic. I’ I’d be more than happy to pay you for that. I just think they have too much other too many other things on their shopping list right now. So, let me ask you this. With that being said, where do you make commitments? Because here’s my thing with skins and any any free agent that wants to sign. And I and I’m saying this from guys I’ve talked to is you have to prove something. Yeah. That you want to put together a good team. And if you have no commitment to anybody, then you trade Mitch Keller. You’ve already traded Bedar. So, two guys that have homes here. You’ve traded. You’ve shown decommmit to Cuts. you’re in, you’re out. Like, he’s not really something that you even want here. So, the reality of it is if I’m a free agent or if I get traded here, where is the excitement other than, yeah, we have the best pitcher in the world, but everybody assumes he’s going to leave in a year or two because he’s going to have the biggest arbitration case after this year that nobody’s talking about that we’re gonna have to pay him a dollar amount that we’ve never paid any free agent and it’s going to be his first, second year at arbitration. He’s gonna break the bank. Are we going to hold on to him? Well, that’s the thing. It’s like, what if he’s like, I want to be here. I want my legacy to be a pirate forever, but you have to prove to me that you’re going to win and everybody here is on literally their heels thinking they’re gone. And that’s what I’m saying is if he’s best friends with Jones, you give Jones a million extra bucks to keep SK’s thought process on the Pirates, maybe that’s the win. I’m just saying they got to do things different. Where’s the different coming in your mind? Should I take that? Either one. I think it’s safer with you. All right, that’s fine. Um, safer? What’s that mean? I mean, we’re we’re supposed to be a little bit more like right here. He can jump back and forth. I jump back and forth a lot, but like that is a reality. Like, if I’m a front office, I have to prove to these guys my commitment because they want commitment from them. And I’ll never forget Walt Weiss saying, you either are playing for the team or yourself. And most of the time that shifts with winning and losing. Yeah, there that’s what I was going to say for it. I mean, there’s nothing they can do this off seasonason that’s going to all of a sudden change the complexion of how people think about the Pirates. You’ve got to win. Conor Griffin signing wouldn’t help. It would help. It would help. But I mean, if they go out and have a 69 win season, do you think anybody cares that they extended Conor Griffin? Like I’m talking about internal free agents. Like, but that was the norm, right? You got to win. You got to win. You got to win. But is that not the stepping stones is doing things a little different? Uh, yes it is. Okay, that’s all that’s where I want you to take this. Yeah. I mean, you’re you’re probably not going to like my answer. I don’t mind. I love your answers. Actually, I love the fact you can go back and forth because there’s a component of what they will do, what they’re willing to do, and then there’s this area of gray where they could, it may bite them in the butt, but what if it didn’t? Because it’s always about what if it went bad? What if we talked about what if it went good? Well, we’re gonna we’re gonna have to take risk. That’s that’s the reality. Exactly. We we have to take risk. We have to be able to live on the those risk of Ford. I’m tracking with you on Jared Jones and and the personal side of it. You throw him a bone with an opportunity to go to the to the bullpen. I think it would be better for his career long term if if the next year or two he’s out of the bullpen instead of, you know, starting and now you’re gonna have to monitor innings and, you know, you’re going to pull him a bunch in the third, fourth, fifth inning. He’s going to be pissed off about it. Um, and and then that has a trickle down effect on the rest of the team because the bullpen has to eat up five, six innings in a game. Uh, so put him in the bullpen, throw him a bone. we still we believe in you with the Pittsburgh Pirates and you’re going to be a big part of our future. And for all we know, Jared Jones and his personality, I could see him going to the bullpen and and feeling that rush of coming in and saving a game in the ninth inning at the big league level and saying, “You know what? I don’t want to start anymore. Give me the baseball. Let me throw it as hard as I can. I’m going to blow these doors and when I’m done with my job, we’re going to shake hands and we’re going to go inside and celebrate.” there’s a different level of excitement around the ninth inning and I can see him flourishing in that. Um, you make a great point about the relationship with guys. I think Paul Ske is that guy. Now, is he going to take a, you know, 50% discount to stay in Pittsburgh? No. But I think Paul Ske has a personality of he wants to be the guy that turns the Pittsburgh Pirates around. And I think he’s capable of doing that. We’re just going to have to step up with a financial piece and keep him here. And you’re going to have to surround him with guys like Jared Jones, like a Mitch Keller, like a Brian Reynolds, like a Connor Griffin. I could not agree anymore. And it excites me to no end to hear somebody else besides me because I’ve been getting yelled at for saying this. Conor Griffin is my opening day shortstop. 100. He is my opening day shortstop. Now, I hear you. We go to spring training and he really struggles and things like that. Okay, send him Triple A. But if he goes to Triple A and he has a great month, April, May 1st, he’s here. He’s with me. And I would absolutely sign him to a long-term deal right now. I don’t know what it would take to get him to commit to eight or 10 or 12 or 15 years for the Pirates, but I would find out. I would absolutely find out. What would it take to know that Connor Griffin is going to be a pirate through 2036? Okay, can we make that work? All right, here’s your piece of paper. Sign it. And that that sends a message not only to Paul Skins and the guys in the clubhouse, but throughout baseball, just like what what Ford was saying now throughout baseball, everybody else is going, “Whoa, okay, the Pirates have a piece that they can really build around.” And I’m talking about Griffin. This is assuming that that Paul’s gone in a couple of years. They’ve got Griffin long term that they can build around. And they’ve got all these other pieces in and you know young major league players pitching especially guys coming in through the minor leagues tomorrow to pair with him at second base. Um I’m drawing a blank. Um um his dad played unfortunately was killed Blanco Jr. He’s impressive you know. So you’ve got some pieces on the offensive side that that could come. Um, but if they get to the big leagues and they have to be the guy right away, that’s another pressure that, you know, Conor Griffin can take off of them. So, I love it. Yeah. All right, Mackey, your turn. All right, where should I start? Um, well, all right, let me start with this. Let me start with this because this frames a lot of what we’re talking about here. If you think about this in terms of Paul Sch. Yep. It’s a it’s a narrative that people love throwing out there about you should extend Paul skins. You have to extend Paul skins. That is a silly conversation right now. It kind of is. Yes. He’s not He’s not going to sign something to stay here until they win. Dude wants to win. So, you need to win. You want to change how people look at the Pirates around Major League Baseball. You’ve got to win. And I agree, Connor Griffin is a very smart part of that. That’s efficient spending, whatever. You have You have to make probably a really good trade. You have to make a really good free agent signing. You also have to do some inhome business with Connor Griffin. You have to have internal improvement. We could talk about that with Henry Davis or Nick Gonzalez. It’s got to be all of the above. And I like I don’t think the Pirates need to get to an elite level of offense. I don’t think I need to see top 10, top 15. If they can get to between I I use these rankings, but they’re somewhat fluid. Like between 18 and 21 in terms of like OPS, runs scored, um hitting with runners and scoring pos like key offensive metrics. Uh, Seattle. Yeah, talk about Seattle. I don’t even need SE. I mean, if Seattle’s an option, please. Yeah. I mean, they were they were way better this year because of the dumper, but like that’s kind of the idea is mid-range offense. Yeah. Mid-range offense, you’re going to have an elite pitching staff. The idea they were a top 10 pitching staff, they probably need to be a top five pitching staff. If you give me a top five pitching staff and then an offense that is 18, 19, 20, or 21, that’s going to be a 90 plus win team. It was in 2013. Look up the numbers. That’s what it added up to. Um, another part that I think is missing here is what we’re talking about, a veteran position player who will come in and change the culture and kind of not change it, but like unite guys. And I like Andrew McCutchen. It is not a criticism of Andrew McCutchen. If anything, it is getting Andrew McCutchen help. I think he is better when he’s able to be in his lane and be his unique personality and he doesn’t have to be the standing in center of the room, be a bit of a jerk guy. It all falls on him, blah blah blah. Like, it is I’m I’m trying to be very careful that it is not ripping a franchise legend. it is helping him, but they need a a Russell Martin, AJ Bernett type who gives zero, you know whats and isn’t going to be afraid to say, “Hey, the way we’re doing this isn’t right. We’re not we’re not going to stand for this. This is going to be done differently now.” You know, sort of like what Paul Ske has done on the pitching staff. Somebody to help out Skins Cut in this guy, whatever it is. But they’re at least one position player leader short and maybe more. And I’m gonna use a guy uh in LA. Help me with his name. He had the long run. Oh, Kikas. No, not not Kik. Rohos. Rojos. So Rojos is our missing piece. A guy like him because I use him as the example of everybody talks about AJ, everybody talks about Russell. Mus Russell was not a leader. Was way more of a of a gamer. AJ was Paul gamer. Is that an option? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. But Clint Baris was the guy behind the scenes that kept the engine running on all fronts because AJ looked to Clint. Uh Russell looked to Clint. Barahas looked to Clint when he was there. And Baris was our guy. Nobody talks about that enough, but in 12 and 13, Baris was the guy that got the bus going. He’s the guy that got everybody moving for it. He was the yes no guy until AJ kind of took over in 13. but he still went to Barmas when he needed something. So that’s the guy that’s missing. I don’t think it has to be a high-profile big name. It could be a guy that literally is the backup shortstop like Rojos that is so good defensively, but behind the scenes, he’s the go guy. He’s the engine. He’s the mover. And that’s what we do need. You’re right. I think that would enhance Andrew McCuten’s play. I think that’ll enhance Brian Reynolds. I think he tried to take on more than he was used to. I think that’s a reason why KBrian Hayes is gonna take off in Cincinnati because he doesn’t have to be a guy that he’s not. Right. So, he went to a shell here. I’m watch him come out of a shell there. It’s goes back to uh Cappy. We’ll close it out with this. Is the culture that we’re building? The identity of a pirate. What do we need to make a great team of individuals? Not an individual that’s going to join this team like Tommy Fam did. Yeah. He had a great second half. He was great. we were we weren’t that much better, right? He was a guy supposed to be outspoken, but because he didn’t have that presence and he didn’t have that ability when he was struggling. We need somebody that no matter what, we know why they’re here. They have 15 years in the big leagues, they play great defense and if they suck at the plate, everybody respects him because that’s what they’re known for. Like a Rojos, we do need that so badly to build that culture. So Cappy, let’s let’s get the final thoughts from both of you guys to take this out, but I really do feel like we’re closer than we ever have been over the last 5 to eight years. U when it comes to it’s personality and performance, you know, so you know, Andrew McCutchen, um if he was still performing at his 2013, 14, 15 levels, um he’s your guy. Everybody just kind of falls in line. He’s he’s not he’s an older guy. um you know, a legacy piece. Um the greatest pirate of of my generation. Uh I feel very confident saying that. Yes. Um but but when you’re not performing and you’re not playing every day, it’s kind of hard to and you don’t have unless you have the personality of, you know, a TK Hernandez who’s just going to yell and and scream and and do what he does. Um it’s hard to be that guy. And Jason, you said something talking about Russell Martin and talking about U AJ Bernett, a pitcher and a position player and an everyday p position player. Even though he was a catcher, he is in the lineup every day. Uh played all the time. You kind of need a leader on both sides. You’ve got that on Paul Skins. Uh Brian Reynolds can be that guy, but it can’t be forced. And Brian Reynolds doesn’t have that personality. A lot a lot like Andrew McCutchen. Um I I completely agree with Michael. It it doesn’t have to be a guy that comes in and all of a sudden is your three-hole hitter or your cleanup hitter. It can be a backup type guy, but um it’s um in their role. You know, they have to know their role and they have to still be able to perform at their role. Um, so I mean I don’t know who it is, but yeah, you got to get some personality in there that uh can create the culture uh on on the position player group side of it. Paul Sches can’t do it as a starting pitcher with with all the position guys. A bullpen guy can’t do it with all the position guys. Uh you need to kind of have one guy in each and for that matter kind of three. You know, the bullpen guys need to have their own leader. Uh, and it doesn’t have to be the closer, but you kind of think of a family dynamic. The bullpen’s its own family, the position group is its own family, and the starters are are their own family, and everybody pulls together for one big happy family. Um, and happier when you’re winning. And and I’m gonna since you brought that up with the bullpen to let Mackey finish this off is Matson gave the ability to let Bedar go and because his body of work and his personality and his want to gave that bullpen a huge in my opinion boost. Do I think he’s going to be the eighth inning guy every single day? Absolutely not. I don’t want him to get overexposed there. But do I think he’s a piece that gets that engine moving in a different way? Yeah, because the way he goes about it, the the trauma he’s been through, I think he elevates those guys out there and they look to him and he just naturally became that role. It wasn’t something that he tried to get. To your point, it just happened, right? They put the right personality at the right time. Bedar was kind of that, but he was my kind of more the meatthead side of that in my opinion. And Matson was more, hey, this is my story. This is my life. this is who I am and I’m going to lead in a multiple multiple different ways because I’m articulate in the game. I know what my stuff does. I know how to mess up timing. You remind me a lot of Lroy Hawkins with a little bit more energy personally. And I think that’s what we’re trying to say is like we’re looking for that in every position type role. Infielder, catcher, pitcher. So, we have something that was like this is the guy they turn to. And I think that’s something’s been missing over the last couple years. I want to talk about the other stuff. If I don’t want to talk about the bullpen for All right, take it away. You get whatever you want, Mackey, right now. You talk about I’m just messing around, man. I I mean, I like their bullpen setup. Like, I’m going to start with Dennis Santana. Isaac Matson pitched his way into a really big role. I like Carmen Majinsky more as a reliever. They need to add a lefty. Maybe that’s somebody with some veteran chops. They have guys with potential. Kyle Nicholas should take another step forward. Yes. On and on we go. Um, yeah. But, okay, then go to the bench. go to the bench because I don’t I don’t think that’s talked about enough and it’s literally I want to go to the veteran at a at a piece with some miles who you know stirs things up in a good way. Like I think Cedric Mullins would be a really good ad for this. I love that. I’m actually all in on that with you. And I I would like to see whether it’s Mullins, whether it’s somebody else come in here with multiple years on their contract like signing for a multiple year deal. I am tired of hearing about Ivon Nova 2016 being the last time the Pirates gave out a multi-year deal in free agency. Like, just stop. You need to take a gamble here. Like, you need to take a calculated risk. Bet on a player, preferably a left-handed hitter, and he’s somebody that checks a lot of boxes, has experience, would add some things to a clubhouse, can run a little bit still, would fit a need in left field. Um, probably you’re still going to make a trade, I think, for third base, but to go sign somebody and and make a statement by saying you’re bringing him in here for three years, whatever. I mean, Johan Suarez is another one that I don’t hate, and I don’t think he’s somebody that’s going to have issues with right-handed power at PNC Park. I just worry, you know, he’s probably going to have other options given the year that he had. So, I’d like to see them bring somebody in here who makes a statement to the fan base, to everybody around the team, to those in the clubhouse. And again, like Cedric Mullins isn’t going to like get people planning a parade, but it’s that kind of deal that says we’re going to place our calculated risk here, and if that guy pans out could be really good. So, I I don’t know. There’s there’s a few more in that vein, but that’s what I want to see them do this offseason. I love it. I appreciate you guys. Anything else you want to leave out there before we sign off, Kappy? Anything else? Very much. Yeah, sorry. Um, and sorry for my technical difficulties. All good, man. Coming back into the house. I was freezing out there, but I I stuck it out for as long as I could. Um, no. I mean, obviously it goes without saying we got to get Captain Hook in PNC Park 1000 and a cannon. And a cannon. And a cannon. I wouldn’t mind a pirate ship, but I don’t want to get greedy, you know? I mean, do we have any water nearby that we could float one in? Oh, just a giant giant Alagany. Yeah, that’s no big deal. Yeah, we could do that. I’d actually nominate I think Kapper would be a better Captain Hook. I think Kapper Hook. Kapper Hook. Hook. I’m just saying that if there’s a game where you’re not on the air, Kapper, I I I could I could see you out dressed as a pirate and a hook on your hand in the outfit. Just saying. Throw throw an eye patch on. You need a parrot. You got to have a parrot on your shoulder. I get a parrot. Yeah. Yeah. Really? I like where we’re going with this. Yeah. Actually be like SME. What’s SME? Captain Hook and SME. I don’t know what SME is, but I’m in. You don’t Peter Pan? It’s been a long time. And I was I was more on the good guy side. I didn’t want to get eaten by an alligator. So, I was on Peter Pan’s side. How do you know who SME is? I don’t know who SME is. Is he like the fat little guy? No. Yes. Dang it. I’ve been working out, too. Golly, I got to do better. That’s the guy who helps Captain Hook and he’s like, I know who is. I know who is now. He kind of looks like this. Yes. Yeah, that’s Yeah, that’s right there. Yeah, he’s happy. That’s all that matters. Hey guys, thank you so much. Um, you’re the best. And we’ll make sure that uh we’ll get a roll Cappy for uh Mackey. We’ll have to come up with a pirate for Mackie next time. So, he has to join us. So, because we’ll all be at the games. I’m in. We’ll make you join. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Hey, appreciate you guys. You can find Bucks Bounty anywhere you get your podcast, but YouTube’s the best because you can see Matt Cap’s beautiful face on this episode. Thank you for watching. Please stay tuned for the next episode. Peace.

Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette joins Michael McKenry and Matt Capps on Bucs’ Bounty to dive into the Pirates’ offseason.

From potential coaching changes to trade and free-agent targets, plus where top prospect Konnor Griffin might start next season—get insider analysis and plenty more in this week’s Bucs’ Bounty!

Videos you may like 👉 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlzfUalBJqnRg_42V-kWYn2aX00vPOH4n
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