Miami Heat: Who’s been more valuable, Davion Mitchell or Andrew Wiggins? | Five on the Floor

Miami Heat: Who’s been more valuable, Davion Mitchell or Andrew Wiggins? | Five on the Floor

Welcome to the latest episode of Five on the floor on the Five Reason Sports Network. Thanks for joining us on your favorite podcast app on Apple Podcast. On Android, we recommend Spotify. Also check out the Five Reasons YouTube channel for all your South Florida sports content in Miami going from MLS Cup title. Also got the Dolphins. I don’t know what they’re going for at this point, but you can check that out as well. And of course, we’ll be restoring a lot of our Panther coverage as people start to get back interested in that. Also, check out Off the Floor. That’s our Discord server. We tell you all the time that the link is here in the description. You got to pay the $299 though to see all the channels. And we’re adding channels. We’re adding a contest channel. You must be subscribe to Off the Floor to be eligible for this. We’re going to be running a contest over basically the next 24 hours to give away free League Pass subs to watch on playback with us. So, it’s pretty cool. This is worth pretty decent amount of money, but you have to be subscribed to Off the Floor to be eligible. We’ll be running the contest in that channel. We’re actually going to be using a video that Brady and I did uh to sort of kick this thing off. So, check it out. It’s off the floor. Make sure you’re subbed to pay the $299. Also, check out Prize Picks. Use the code five fiv. Put down your five bucks. You get $50 to play right away. Again, that’s $50 in lineups. That’ll be on the explore page. Legal in the state of Florida. You can play You can play NFL, NBA, NHL, and more. It’s prize picks. If you see another code in there, delete it. Add five fivs to play right away. And now today’s episode. Uhoh. Yeah, it’s Mercy Music by Mercy again. He keep nation the culture. Yo, I need you to call out radio blanket for the shot. Yo, the still five on the floor. Still ride for my dog on the court. Still survive in the war. Keep your eye on the ball or get burned from the heat. This mic off the wall without turning the cheek from night to day. No sleeping pads are allowed to mourn us. They love to sleep us never catches live from Miami. We pour in the heat with five reasons from the court to the streets. [Music] Hey, be patient. [Applause] [Music] Welcome to Five on the Floor, a daily insider show on the Miami Heat and the NBA featuring Ethan Skolnick, Greg Sander, Alex Toledo, Brady Hawk, and others from the Five Reason Sports Network. Also, make sure to subscribe to Off the Floor for the most heat anywhere. [Music] Are 14 and seven. 14-7 and they’re in the top four in the East. Depends on the day, but they’re right there behind Detroit. They’re with the Knicks. They’re with Orlando. They’re with Toronto, which has been a bit of a surprise. But as other teams have faded, the Heat are now sixth in the league in net rating. Sixth in the league in net rating. That’s a legitimately good basketball team. So, that’s where they’re at right now. They’ve got a Wednesday trip to Dallas. Team that they should handle if they take them seriously. though Anthony Davis is back and just had a big game and Dallas did muck them up a lot defensively the last time that they played and then coming back uh they’ve got a game in Orlando. This is not the game for the NBA Cup uh NBA Cup quarterfinal. They play that one next week in Orlando. Magic are playing well without Palancho. Don’t know if he’s coming back Friday, but Desmond Bane has gotten it going. So that’ll be a more challenging game. Of course, the Heat lost the season opener there. That one’s coming up on Friday. and then Sacramento in on Saturday and they are a disaster to the level of the Clippers. They’re another example um of wanting names and sometimes names don’t work. Uh you know, maybe you actually have to build a roster. Uh so I got Brady Hawk with me. You can find them at Brady Hawk 305. The Heat have built built a roster. It’s a pretty damn good roster so far. And there’s been a lot of conversation about Hero, about Powell, about that fit. Brady has a new article up on our on SI site. Make sure that you check that out. We’ve all of our guys are are writing now for that site. Uh, and of course there’s always talk about BAM. There has not been as much conversation about the two players that we’re going to talk about today. And I’m going to I’m going to pose this to you and I did prep you on this so you cannot say what Alex always says. There’s no doubt that these two guys have been major about both of them is guys that have been too good to take out of the starting lineup. And so we’re not doing a starting lineup topic today, but I’m just going to ask you this question. Don’t say it’s a tough question. Who has been more important to the Miami Heat so far this season? Is it Andrew Wiggins, the former number one overall pick, who seems to have found another home in his third home, or is it DaVon Mitchell, also in his third home, who never found a home until he got here? And now he is, in my view, playing at a level that only about four or five point guards in the Eastern Conference are playing at. Yeah. So, I won’t say it’s a tough question, but I will say I hate that you’re making me pin these two guys against each other. Um because they have been so good. It is. Yeah. Is you’re just forcing me to just, you know, talk down on one of them. But no, uh I would say like recency bias. I just want to quickly mention I think Wiggins has been insanely good for this new style of offense, especially with being bumped down as a primary option where he kind of went early in the season where he became a second or third option for a big stretch there. now he’s kind of back down to fourth and it hasn’t looked that way where he’s kind of benefiting. It almost feels like the more good players they get back the better Andrew Wiggins gets um just with the less attention and just the the style of this offense. And I’ll also mention I think Wiggins has been one of the most underrated uh or the most underrated defender on this team by far just because he’s been that good. Uh Davon gets his credit, Bam gets his credit, Wiggins has been outstanding defensively and they’ve needed him because he’s been guarding all five positions. With that said, I think consistently across the start of the season, it’s DaVon. I mean, DaVon has just been that good. He he I was just looking at some of the numbers of his passing because his passing I mean I it’s so crazy to say that when I’m bringing up Davon, the mentioning the offensive side of the ball first because it’s hasn’t been like that for majority of his life. It’s just been mentioning how good of a defender he is, which we’ll get to that. But he’s averaging there’s 15 players in the NBA averaging at least seven assists. There’s only one of those 15 guys that are averaging less than two turnovers and that’s DaVon. And I mean, you could go down the list even down to six assists and probably even lower where nobody’s averaging as as little as turnovers that he is with the amount of minutes that he gets, with the amount of touches that he gets, with the amount of assists that he gets. Like he has been so uh under control and just so great in this new offense where he doesn’t make a ton of mistakes. like it’s like just getting the ball because a lot of this too is like a lot of these playmakers and passers are running these these diverse offenses where it’s getting downhill making tough passes. It’s not a knock on him. It’s honestly it’s a jump to this offense and him himself. But it’s it’s simple passes. It’s simple reads. Like it’s it’s not advanced stuff. He’s not making the the game difficult on some. It’s like, okay, if we’re on the break, I’m going to make a quick hit ahead pass here. If it’s early clock offense, I’m going to drive quick and I’m going to hit a trailer right behind me for a three. And it’s just it’s just simple reads he’s making. He’s acquiring these assists where I mean he was acquiring a good amount of assists last year, but it was a lot of pocket passes to bam. It was a lot of stuff in the lane. This is just a different version of it. Then I mean you add in the defense. You add in what he’s been able to do on that end where he’s guarding these elite players game after game. He’s averaging, you know, this is my, you know, not a real stat, but it’s my stat, but he’s averaging a forced moving screen at least one every single game. like uh he’s just been so good in that area where they’re doing some of the switching now with this new starting lineup and he’s has to size up on some of these other guys and it never feel like he’s at disadvantage. Yes, when he’s on he has Zubac on the block and everybody’s complaining about the switching. Yes, maybe it looks a little bad there, but other than that, he’s been so good in that area of just forcing runs on that end of the floor. And then the biggest thing to me is that this guy is a legitimate reliable three-point shooter. Yeah, I mean these teams I mean I I I was wondering it in the offseason, but I’m watching it now. It’s like at some point I mean you can’t really you’re not you’re still going to choose Davon shooting a three over Tyler or Norm like of course but like at some point the Sky Report is going to shift a little bit where they’re not going to be able to help off Davon the way that they’ve been like he’s been that consistent where it’s not even just off the catch like he’s been good off the catch that if he’s wide open off the catch he’s every time he shoots I said this last night at the game I think it’s going in like anytime that he puts the ball from three like I I legitimately think it has it’s going in every time but he has that little like mini step back bounce where he goes off the dribble and he kind of gets in that little step back. It just he’s been so money from so many different areas uh and then the downhill ability. I think one of the biggest reasons why the starting lineup can work and and why like it’s just he’s you don’t usually say this with point guards like I know Spo used this word connector where he’s used it with Eco in the past or he’s used it with different guys in the past where it’s usually like these in like tweener type players. You don’t usually see smaller point guards being connectors, but that’s what I kind of view Dave on being because when they need shooting, he’s going to be the downhill physical threat that’s going to put a shoulder into you to kind of force a kick out. Or if it’s the opposite, he’s going to get off the ball and he’s going to be able to shoot. So, I’m going to lean Dave on in terms of this entire season of what they needed because he’s just been so consistently good and you just know what you’re getting from him on a game- byame basis. Well, I did poll this morning. I was trying to find that. Um, and the fans agree with you so far. Um, who’s been more integral to the Heat success so far? DaVon at 87% and Wiggins at 13%. Which again speaks to how good Mitchell’s been because Wiggins has been tremendous of late. Um, I know he missed, you know, he missed a couple games uh with the hip flexor, but other than that, I mean, he’s been unbelievable. Um, and you take a look at what DaVon did last night. Again, just to look at some of the numbers. 16 points, made all six of his field goal attempts, including all four of his threes, 12 assists, three rebounds, two steals, and I was actually stunned that he had two turnovers. He had gone um six quarters with 16 assists and no turnovers. 16 assists and no turnovers. This is a team that used to uh they had a clause in Tim Hardaway’s contract that he hated. He also hated the fat clause, but he had a a a clause. We should get Timmy on. Uh he had a clause in his contract for 3 to1 assist to turnover ratio. Hated it. Was always an issue at the end of the year. He’s a Hall of Famer. He had a 3 to1. DaVon is basically at a 5:1 close to 6:1 clip. And I I get what you’re saying. He’s not making the kind of reads that Tim Hardaway used to have to make against th that kind of defense. The defense in the late 90s obviously was was quite a bit different, but he’s making all these simple plays. And the thing is that Spolster couldn’t have leaned into this philosophy and this system if he didn’t trust his point guard to make those plays. So, it all started with the trust. It’s one thing for Andrew Wiggins, who again has been great. I want to talk more about him. A former number one overall pick who has found a way to be a second or third option on a championship team to find his way here. It’s another thing for a guy who looked like he might be headed out of the league. DaVon Mitchell was the worst offensive player in the NBA by the metrics in his rookie season. The worst. And now you’re expecting him to get you what? 12 points on efficient shooting, seven or eight assists, and one or two turnovers. And and I’m I’m looking at some of the guys that are in the Eastern Conference here. And I posed this today. I said top uh on five years on Twitter. Two years, 24 million has been a top five point guard on the East. So that seems like like sort of a wild statement, right? So this is from DHM34 on Twitter. Initially disagreed with you, but you may be right. Some may disagree, but the best point guards so far this season in no part in in no order, no particular order, Brunson. Okay, it’s obvious. Uh, Maxi, Giddy, and do we consider Kade or Donovan Mitchell to be point guards? Is Donovan Mitchell a point guard? I don’t I don’t know. It’s sort of the Dwayne thing, right? Like, yeah, that’s a little weird. Kade, I would say, yeah, but Donovan’s weird. Okay. Um, some may say Pritchard, uh, Emanuel Quickley, Jaylen Suggs have been better. I’m a big Jaylen Suggs fan. I I don’t I mean, defensively he’s he’s on DaVon’s level. Um, but I I don’t know that he’s been as quite as impactful as DaVon’s been this year. I know some in Orlando may disagree with that. Now, Trey’s been out, so that’s, you know, you sort of take him out of the equation. LaMelo is awful, so I take him out of the equation. Uh, but you can make this argument like you can absolutely make the argument and that’s why he’s been so hard to pull from the starting lineup which again is not the topic today. On the other side is so I want to get to Wiggins because they’re in different contract situations. Like DaVon’s locked in like if DaVon was having this kind of season you’re not resigning him for two years and 24 million, man. Like you’re not this is this is an 18 to20 million a year player right now. Like he’s who they got for 12 million. Like that’s that’s the level that he’s playing at. But I want you to get into Wiggins here a little bit more on the other side. So, we’re going to do that because I I don’t want to short shrift him, but I I think it does make the point that DaVon has been exceptional. What is he shooting from three right now? What’s his percentage? Because I I said he couldn’t replicate 45 and I was hoping for 35. Uh he is at 40.4%. Right in the middle. Right in the middle. I mean, look, anything over 35 to me was a win. And you mentioned it when he gets to that step back and he gets his feet set. It reminds me of another Heat point guard. You know what I’m thinking of? So we always compare to the Europeans. It reminds me of Gor when Goran when Goran would step back into the three and he’d get his feet set. You’re like that’s in. When he was a little off balance or trying to force things like no. And the thing with DaVon is it’s either he gets his feet set and you know it’s going in or it is wide right or wide left. He’s had some real weird air balls this year. But when he is set, it’s in. I mean that that’s pretty much the way it’s been this season. All right. Uh you know what you need to get set your money. Okay. Cash App is the place that you want to go to do this. And we tell you this all the time. All of us on the Five Reason Sports Network, we are signed up with Cash App. Everybody at Five on the floor. And this is a particularly important time to do this, okay? Because scammers know that the holidays are busy for everyone, which makes us all targets for scams. That’s why Cash App builds in protection to help keep your money safe while you’re checking off your shopping list. If you’re about to send money to someone for a deal that’s too good to be true, and Cash App flags it as a potential scam scam, they’ll warn you before you send the money. 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That’s Cash App. Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partners. Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank member FDIC. Promotions provided by Cash App a Block Inc. Brand Vision.app back/legal backpodcast for more information. Okay, so let’s get back to Wiggins here. Um because the conversation with W nobody’s talking about trading DV Mitchell. Okay. I mean that that that’s just too good an investment. I mean 2 years 24 million and he’s not going to be anywhere else what he is here. So nobody’s going to make you the kind of offer uh that he would be worth for the way he’s playing. The Wigan stuff is still out there. It’s still being pushed by LA I feel like by people around the Lakers. The way he’s playing right now. Is he too valuable to trade for this particular team? I mean I’m not trading him for future assets by the way. I’m not doing that. Okay. But there’s been, you know, there were conversations about, well, you well, I guess one would be a first round pick from the Lakers or something along those lines and you plug in somebody like Ruy Hatchima. I mean, should we even be talking about this at this point? I mean, don’t they don’t they need to keep him or because Alex has been concerned about his fit at times, but it sounds like you’re past it. Yeah, I I actually really like his fit with this team right now. just the defensive part of it because if you don’t play Da’Von in a lineup, he could size down, but there’s been points where they’re going three guard lineups and it’s Wigan sizing up and defensively he’s just been so good in that area. It’s like some the games he’s guarding an elite guard, but then last night you see him guarding Kawhai and I know Kawhai got going for a part there, but he was really good on Kawawaii early in that game. Like he was not able to get get to his spots at all. Uh but offensively is the big thing about the fit and it’s funny because I really do feel like he’s fit into this. Like I said earlier, I think he’s been better with the more players they’ve gotten back, like with the more attention some of these other guys, and it was kind of something I was talking about last night with some uh some of the questions is that with the attention on Tyler and Powell and and Powell was saying, you know, they’re going to put our two best their two best defenders on us two and they’re going to face guard us. So, what that does is it opens up the slots and it opens up for DaVon Bay and and Wiggins. And that’s what you saw last night early in the game. It was those three guys that were pretty much the entire offense. We were talking about it that Hero Powell didn’t even barely have any touches earlier in that game. Uh, and this I just think it’s better on Wiggins when that stuff happens that he could kind of beat us downhill threat. The other thing is the transition thing. I mean, I didn’t really see it either, but he’s been very good in the early offense style where like he he’ll catch the ball and he’ll go like he’ll he’ll shoot with 16 seconds left in the shot clock where he can attack one-on-one. Uh, there’s the other element of this where he’s just like it’s not always it’s like playing off his own misses. is like there was the one play where he shot it in the middle of the floor over Harden and he just got his own rebound and laid it back in where he’s been so like active on the offensive boards where he’s he’s almost like a like a gritty 3 and D guy like in a lot of ways like he’s just kind of like been this this uh workhorse where it’s not all clean looks. It’s not all like shot creation type things. Uh he’s just been so valuable. He’s been a valuable player for this team and I seriously think when he looks the way he did last night and he has as of late, this team is it looks like a completely different team. Like when he’s if he comes out the game, he’s the aggressor for multiple quarters where he’s the guy that kind of shifts the defense and you don’t have to even think about Tyler and Powell yet. Like that is the outlook. Like that is what you want to see with this team. So to answer your question, I wouldn’t I mean I’m kind of past that. I I I think you’re not trading Wiggins for future assets or doing that type of stuff. I think you this team is playing too well. There’s too much chemistry. There’s too much stuff going on that you just don’t break this type of team up to. Well, that’s the that that that’s that’s the other part because usually I’m I’m not because Yeah. I mean, you’re you’re focusing on the basketball there, which I which I get completely, but there is that other element which I’m always concerned about. And like if you traded him right now with the way that his teammates seem to feel about him, you see the way that Powell talks about him, um the way that Bam talks about him, I I don’t think you can do that. I I just I think at this point you’re riding this out. Um and he has proven he can do it in big moments. His numbers in clutch situations this year are great. His mid-range numbers are great. I think that if if you take a look at his future with the team in a year from now, it may look different as they sort of reshape it. But I think for right now, you you can’t move him. And the other part of this is everybody’s always in a hurry to give somebody else a bigger role. And like with Jaime, like if you trade Wiggins, then you’re you’re changing Jaime’s role again, I think. And I know there were some are like, “Oh, give Haime even more responsibility and all that.” But Haime’s just fine in his role right now. And we’ve actually seen Jaime come back to earth a little bit over the past couple games. I I don’t I think it’s better to have the Wiggins security blanket there. there’s a night that Wiggins doesn’t have it, then I think Haimey gets some of those late reps. But I don’t think that this needs to be done right now. And the other thing is he just he fits uh he seems to fit personally now. Like he’s enjoying himself. He’s smiling. He’s he’s been part of this group. Um he had the big game winner obviously with the dunk off the inbounds. I think that also elevated him in some ways. I I wouldn’t touch it. I I really wouldn’t. I know he fans be like, “Sell high, sell high. That’s what they always say and then you’re going to regret it later.” But I don’t necessarily believe in selling high when the team is 14 and seven and has a week where they could advance on that record. I I don’t I don’t see the point. There’s still decisions to be made regarding Hero and Powell and the extensions and all that, but I I wouldn’t I wouldn’t move I wouldn’t move Wiggins uh right now, you know, unless you got a great offer, which I don’t think that you’re going to get. And so I don’t even think it’s a consideration. All right. So let let’s um let me ask you this then and we’ll close with this. for who who which of the two do you think it’s more sustainable what we’ve seen so far? Honestly, funny enough, I think it’s both. Like these are two guys that I think are are sustainable play styles, but I would probably say it’s tough. Probably DaVon just because I think we’ve seen Wiggins go in and out of this a little bit where there’s been games where he’s not as aggressive. like right now he’s really in a flow where where you want to see this kind of keep up but like there’s been times where he’s taken you know that back seat and what happens then if he’s taken that back seat as a you know off the catch shooter uh then there you’re back to the all the attention on Tyler and Powell and you’re kind of back to what where we were before. So DaVon can kind of do this no matter what. I mean, the reason why I think the knock on him would be what we’ve been saying for the last year and a half, which it’s doesn’t seem like it’s ever going to come is like, oh, he’s going to just drop back down to and not be able to shoot anymore, like like the shooting’s just going to all of a sudden fall off the map. Well, that doesn’t happen. It’s been a long sample size now where that’s not going to happen. He’s just a good shooter. He’s a good open set shooter. uh and teams can’t really make that type of adjustment because if they do uh and start closing out on him harder then he’s going to get really into his game and then it’s downhill drives where he wants to be and it’s kickout plays. So I think he’s right where he wants to be. I think this is extremely I mean maybe DaVon is you know what you said before a 5 to1 6 to1 you know assist to turnover ratio isn’t realistic but as I said earlier these aren’t complex reads these aren’t like these type of like plays where you’re going to say like oh it’s eventually going to drop off. I think that is actually extremely sustainable. Maybe the part that maybe is not sustainable is the assist numbers if he’s making those passes and the guys next to him aren’t making their shots. Like it’s like, okay, the offense is falling off a little bit. Like that’s the only way I could see that possibly falling off the map. The defense isn’t going anywhere for either one of them. Uh so honestly, I think it’s it’s I would lean Dave on, but I think the plus to that question is I’m not strong on either because I think both of them are are pretty consistent with their roles. It’s it’s hard to be, you know, not unsustainable when you’re two that good of defenders. Like, right, because you’re always going to be valuable. Like, you’re always going to be needed. Even if the three-point shooting takes a little bit of a dip, even if turnovers increase for either one of them, like the defense, they’re going to be closing games just because they’re that valuable defensively for this team. Well, and DaVon seems to know what his limitations are, which is great. And he knows his limitations, but then he’s increasing his strengths, so that’s positive. our our guy uh Trilly, who I know you’re familiar with, he put this out there on the bottom of that tweet and it’s an interesting one because DaVon is a lot younger than these players were when they popped, but he’s like, could we be seeing like a you know, it took Kyle Lowry three teams to find a team, you know, early in his career, he was a first round pick picked after DaVon was picked obviously a lot earlier uh in terms of years uh who did didn’t really work out that well in Memphis and Houston. I at times he did but not completely not really until he got to Toronto. And another one he mentioned and I know this name is toxic right now but he was a hell of a player is Chanty Bilips who did not was traded from Boston because he wasn’t any good and he got he went to Denver, he went to Detroit uh and became a Hall of Fame level player. So I’m not saying Davon Mitchell is going to be a Hall of Fame level player. I’m just saying that sometimes point guards take a minute. They take a minute. um and you’re seeing a guy who has fit into the perfect system and he’s always going to play because of his defense. So, they’ve both been great. Uh I don’t really think teams are going to scheme them out. I to me this team uh as long as they’re defending at a top five level and they are. I know people don’t think so because they see the high scores, but they’re still in the top five in defensive rating and these two these are two of the three players that are most responsible for that. So, that’s th those that’s going to continue. Okay. the the shooting variance I think may be there and I think you and I agree on that. All right, check out Brady’s work on on SI. Also, check out our sponsors. Secure 10 cash app prize picks. Use the code five fiv. We’re actually we’re going to do this on this episode, but I went long as I always do. Uh we’re so we’re going to have uh our debut of two-way talk. It’s going to be attached to our next episode. I got a chance to sit down with Jamir Young, a two-way hopeful for the Heat to take you behind the scenes of his process, everything that goes into being a two-way player. That’s going to be a weekly segment on five on the floor. before we got a chance to do it in person yesterday. I felt bad for Jir because I think he would have played or we might have got a chance to at least get in the last minute but uh he flew in and he wasn’t active. But we’re going to be doing that segment regularly uh coming up. Have a good day everybody.

The Miami Heat have been blessed with plenty of above-average performers in their 14-7 start. Ethan Skolnick and Brady Hawk evaluate two, Davion Mitchell and Andrew Wiggins, and try to decide who has been more important.

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