#NFLVideos: Episode 57 with Author & Journalist Ken Belson | Lots to Say

Episode 57 with Author & Journalist Ken Belson | Lots to Say

Yeah, [Music] welcome to another episode of lots to say. Hey, what a family picture with you guys at USC. How cool is that? Is it because it was your alma mater, your wife’s alma mater, and you were working, so you took the whole family? Yeah. Well, they went we went out there for Thanksgiving break. Oh, the whole family was out there. Oh, that’s awesome. And then obviously my wife is alumnist as well. And so we brought all the kids and my extended family, my brothers, my sister, all my nieces and nephews, they all came as well. So I brought the kids down. And the funny part was we were doing the pregame show and normally what we do is we look for a big alumni to come bang the drum. It’s like the last segment before we go and push it to the actual game. And we couldn’t find anybody out on the field like no no heavy hitters. So then the field producer Wilkkey comes up and goes, “Kass, we’re just gonna we’re going to use your family.” I was like, “Oh, was that idea?” Yeah. So they were on NBC and the funniest part was my oldest son who’s only 12 years old. He’s sitting there and he’s got a stoic personality and they go to bang the drum and you’re like, “All my other kids are smiling stuff and he’s stone cold in the picture.” He was stone cold. Yeah. He’s just stone cold. No facial expression. And Wily’s like, “I think your oldest son was upset.” I was like, “No, that’s just him, dude. He he’s he’s going to be here all the time. But it was it was awesome experience for the kids and to have them there on the sideline and and uh be back at the my alma mater for the last game of the year was a good way to wrap it up. It was a great picture. It was a lot of fun, man. I don’t I’m not comment guy. I’m not heart guy. I wish I liked more pictures on Instagram because in my heart I do like a lot of pictures. I wish I just got credit for liking pictures instead of liking them with my thumb. Can I just scroll? And I’m like, “Oh, that’s good. That’s good. But I actually was so compelled to write great picture on that. Did you write it? Yeah. Oh, thank you. I didn’t even read it. Yeah. I don’t read my comments. Okay. I’m not like an Instagram. Two comments. Probably two. One was two. One was from you, one was from my mom. Driving through. Look, I just don’t click on the picture to read through the comments. So, it’s a great picture. Oh, well, I appreciate that. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. And it was good to see the family, but it was a crazy week because on Thanksgiving, I had to fly back to the East Coast because I was in studio Friday. Got on a plane from JFK at 6:00 in the morning to fly back out to the West Coast for the USC UCLA game. Then I got on a flight Sunday morning at 6:30 to fly back to Nashville. A lot of travel. So you went California, New York, New York, California. Mhm. And then right back to Nashville. That’s long. Yeah. Did they at least put you in a layown seat? Did you have those options? They did. And I was so thankful for that. Cuz that’s basically a flight to Europe. It’s a game changer. I mean, it was a game changer. You could actually lay down and and like nap a little bit. I don’t sleep well on planes. Can you pass out on planes? If I take the right pills. Yeah. Well, I need some of those pills then because I didn’t have them. Well, I don’t take them anymore. I had some issues. I think I’ve told you this before. I got like jumped at work, got pistol whipped another event, and had my house broken into. So, I was struggling a little bit with sleep obviously. And so I tried that would do it to you right there. Those are three hardcore instances. Tough. Yeah, it was tough. And so I tried a lot of different things because I don’t like to take I I don’t want to say medicine. I don’t like to take medication because I have fear of addiction because all my family’s been addicted and they’re mostly all dead from it. And so I wasn’t sleeping at all after those instances like for months and months. And I was going to my doctor. We were trying all the natural remedies and Tai Chi and uh anything that possibly would work, right? Holistic, non-holistic. I was doing uh everything except taking sleeping pills. And so I started taking sleeping pills because I was getting no sleep and I was getting sick all the time because I was getting no sleep, right? And finally I I was like, I’m taking sleeping pills. Doctor was like, you got to do it. And so it was our last option and so I took them. You ever taking sleeping pills? They’re crazy. They’re cra if you don’t go to sleep. Dude, the trippiness behind that and you’re like in this other zone and world. It’s like the Twilight Zone. It was so wild to me because I’ve never had a drink of alcohol and so I don’t know what it’s like to be drunk. I’d like to be drunk a lot. I’d like to I’d like to do drugs. Never. Well, if you ever want to talk about it, I’ve been there before. You can be my reference my reference point. I’ll be your reference point. So, where do you want to go right now? I would take these pills and then I would be like, you know what? I don’t need to go to sleep quite yet. I need to do some more work. That’s the worst thing you could possibly do. And there I would black out. Yeah. And I would wake up and see that I had FaceTimed people and don’t remember a thing. Isn’t that wild? Once I drove. No, you did not. I don’t remember it, but I drove and I drove off with a gas pump in my car. You’re like Wolf of Wall Street. You know that scene where he’s going down the street and he was like, “Dude, I got home safely.” And then the next morning they do the recap and it’s like full on not not a good situation. It was so unsafe for me. And so I was like I got to stop taking them. But I would take them on long flights. I’d never been anywhere like overseas or even on a vacation till I got older. So I started to go places by myself and I would get the layown seat. I started to make money and I was single so I was like I’m buying the freaking layown seat. You’re gonna This is all coming to a point about the layown seats. And so like I went to Ireland by myself. Went to Hawaii by myself. by yourself. Yeah. And mostly because I would go I went to Ireland to finish my second book because it was the closest far away place that would get me off the time zone so I wouldn’t get into my cycle of working because even though I’m like I’m going to check out for a few days from like my radio show, my podcast, it was still 3:00 here, 3:00 everybody around me and they were still reaching out to get stuff done. Right. If I go to Ireland 7 hours, 8 hours ahead. Yeah. I’m working and people are like 6:00 in the morning but it’s 3 p.m. It’s just the cycle. Yeah. So, I went to Ireland. Same thing with Hawaii. And I just I’m there working and I took a sleeping pill on the flight back and I don’t remember a lot of the flight and it scared me because I thought, what did I say? Who did I This is the moment. And I thought, what if cuz I could have easily been one of those dudes that gets arrested for like laying in the aisle taking a dump or whacking off or something and not knowing. I was so out of control. Bones arrested. Yeah. and public indecency. I wouldn’t have known it. Yeah. And that was so scary to me. It wasn’t the gas pump in the car. It wasn’t It was that the judge would have understood. I don’t think he would have. Yeah. You’ve taken a sleeping pill before, judge. Come on. Come on, your honor. You know, come on. You’ve heard a lot of in this courtroom. Yeah. So, that’s why I I stopped taking them. But if I take the right pills, you’re out. I can sleep like crazy. But I also might just whack off in the aisle of the airplane. Yep. That would do it. One of the funniest stories about traveling internationally. It’s not my story and I’m going to paraphrase it a bit only because and I’m going to name drop, but I like name dropping because I think it’s more fun for listeners. Yeah. So people like, “Oh, name drop.” No. No. When I listen to somebody talking about stuff, I want to hear name drops because it’s it’s interesting. I was at dinner with Lionel Richie once and it was me and Lionel and Luke. And this is we were in San Luke Brian. Oh. That’s my bad. I don’t know why I did that. You just said Luke. You said Lionel Richie, but of course we’re doing American Idol. Okay. We were in Savannah, Georgia before we started to shoot the on location in city parts of the show where you go the auditions. What happened? Oh yeah, I love those auditions. And so it was the night before and we’re having dinner. And Lionel Richie has been so famous for so long, he’s forgotten what it’s like to be normal. For sure. Cuz he’s been famous for 40, 50 years. Like internationally multi-millionaire famous. and he has never taken a step backwards. Yeah. He’s just always been at the top of his game. And I’ll say again, he is the greatest. The only negative thing I would ever say about Lionel Richie because he was the absolute nicest, sweetest, most humble, giving, generous guy ever, is that he was a little late. He’s he’s kind of a Hollywood late. Hey, it’s it’s you’re on his time, babe. Was it was kind of on his time. You want this superstar? It’s when I want to show up after my nap. And of all the things, that’s the only thing cuz he was the greatest guy. And we would sit at dinner and he would tell great stories. He would tell stories about Artha Franklin, like voicemails from her before she died that he kept on his phone. He’s just generous, right? Generous with the stories. And he was talking about, he was like, “We were flying to Europe and we couldn’t get a jet, a private jet to take us.” Tough. That’s really tough. He said, “So we flew commercial first class.” And he called that rat class, didn’t he? He didn’t. He didn’t. But I never actually heard that. That’s funny. Rat class. He called that rat class. Did you make that up? Huh? Did you make that? You haven’t heard that before? You Oh, well, he must not, you know, fly a commercial. I mean, I I’ve got I’ve never heard I got five kids. I mean, I have to sit in the back of a plane with seven seats at the time. West if we’re going to California cuz No chance. If we’re going to California, that is all I will fly because the plane’s not working. It’s cuz I’m not paying that bill. Yeah, exactly. That bill is brutal. The bill I’m not flying private to California from here. I’ll use the company plane at times. Yeah, but I’m not. No, I’m still southwest 30% of the time. Okay. Southwest 30%. No, Southwest 20%. Southwest. Let’s be honest. You just threw out like a larger percentage. Maybe 10%. 30. They have Delta. They have Delta flights that go out there. First class. You’re for sure taking that if it’s there. But I’m telling you, Vegas. They don’t. They don’t have No, there’s not a lot. Yeah. Out of Nashville. So, it’s southwest of Vegas every time. and to I if I’m flying into California, I’m going to fly into I think it used to be called Bob Hope, but yeah, it’s down in Orange County. Yeah. Mhm. Um or the other one the one Southwest flies into that’s that’s not John Wayne Ontario John Wayne. That one. Yeah. Yeah. That I like that one. It’s much smaller. Oh, that’s the best. Southwest goes. I don’t think there is a Bob Hope, is there? Maybe not anymore. I think John Wayne Burbank Burbank’s it. That’s it. Oh, yeah. Burbank’s tiny. Tiny. Burbank’s what it is cuz they fly Southwest flies in. Yep. It’s A+. So anyway, I know Southwest. get off my balls. So, uh, Lionel’s like, “I flew first class and I woke up and I just wanted like a sorbet.” And he goes, “I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like, “Excuse me, flight attendant. Can I get like a sorbet with a uh a little bit of almond milk and some caramel nuggets?” And she’s like, “Sir, I’m sorry this first class, but we can’t we can’t make whatever you want. We might be able to get you a warm cookie.” And he was like I was in shock. They couldn’t make a sorbet with nuggets. And I thought it was so funny cuz even he knew he was a bit out of touch. But but that’s he was like I was in a bed. He also said people kept walking by when he was in his bed taking pictures of him. I feel bad. That would that would be uh Yeah, you you can’t do that. Come on. You should know better if somebody’s sleeping. I agree. Who’s the coolest person you’ve ever seen in first class? Coolest person I’ve ever seen. Because you’re not gonna act like Mr. Normal. You’re a Google away. Your money’s a Google away. Yeah. I don’t know. So, don’t act like rat class is your common No, but I I I don’t know. It’s funny how he’s inserted himself as a common man here, Kevin. I think it’s the kids. Oh, my wife said, uh, somebody was in front of me the other day. My wife said, hold on. This is a funny story. She text me. I’ll tell you the name right now. Hold on, everybody. So, the part, this is the part of the story. So, I didn’t know that I was doing the USC UCLA game until that week. I had already booked the flights for my family back home on Sunday. So, the company booked me. I said, “Can you get me on that same flight?” Well, they booked me first class. The rest of my family was in business class behind me. So, I get on the plane. I get on the plane and I’m sitting there and then my family starts coming on and everybody’s sitting down in like the first class at this point and I’m sitting here and I feel terrible and they’re like, “Okay, Dad. And I’m literally turning these people. I was like, I am not the worst father you’ve ever seen. To be honest with you, I didn’t know I was even going to be on this flight. My company booked me. I would rather sit with my family. And they’re like, okay, guy. Like my wife goes back, my five kids. So then my wife texts me and says, let’s see who was sitting in front of me. It might take me a second, guys. I know. Trivia question as you look. Kevin, can you name the members of Outcast? Andre 3000. Yes. Andre, what? 3000. Okay. Um. Oh, what is it? Narles Barkley. No. No. That’s CEO Green. CEO Green. CEO Green. No. No. No. No. CEO Green is one of Narles Barkley. Okay. So, you’re So, you picked another group, but not No. But a member. No. Okay. So, you got Andre 3000. Andre. Can you name the other one? Um, no. Can you name the other one? For some reason, I want to go like No, I’m not even gonna uh Big Boy. Oh my god, that’s exactly what I was going to say, but I didn’t want to say it so wrong. I swear to God. Can’t do that. I had big boy. And I was like, but I really don’t know if this is right. Who? Finish finish your story. My wife texted me and says, you know, Leanne Rimes is sitting in front. Oh, that’s cool. So, there you go. Leanne Rimes. There’s uh one that I can remember that your wife could remember. I’ve tried that. My wife texted you. I just saw a black hat in front of me and I wasn’t going to tap people on. Hey, are you guys relevant and are important? Anybody here famous? I got talking about you guys when we on our podcast on uh on t Tuesday. I was on a flight. My wife and I were going to Europe and Andre 3000, that’s cool, was sitting like a to the right of us because those seats, it’s like 2 two two and so he was over to the right of us and you can absolutely tell it’s him. The only difference is he’s a little grayer. Mhm. And he walks around because he doesn’t really rap anymore. He just plays the flute. He puts out flute albums. Really? Yeah. He’s a floutist. Wow. I didn’t even know that word. Say that again. A floutist. Flatist. Yeah. I didn’t want to bother him. But you had to get a picture with them. I didn’t. No. The only thing that I did I have two stories like this. Is there anybody that you’d go up to? Yes. There are people. It just depends. A lot of it too is like their body language, their dynamic. Are they by themsel? Are they sleepy? Like I’m paying attention because on a much much much smaller level. I’m grateful when people do that to me. Yes. And he also wasn’t with his kids. He wasn’t eating. There are certain rules that I have about going up to people. Uh, but I see him and I tell my wife that’s Andre 2000. My wife is 12 years younger than I am. And she’s like, “Is he a wrestler?” She because we talked about Andre the Giant. We talking about Andre the Giant. I was teaching her about it and I was like, “No, no, no. He’s part of Outcast.” And she was like, which she still doesn’t know what Outcast is. Well, there are versions of Outcast. Like I was a fan of Outcast, like Bombs Over Baghdad, like the early stuff. Bombs. Yes. And even the newer stuff once it was real popular. And I was like, “Shake it, shake, shake, shake it, shake it like a Polaroid.” Oh, she goes, “Oh, that’s him.” I was like, “Yeah, that’s it.” She was like, “Oh, cool.” Then she doesn’t care. She gives no crap about celebrities. Yeah. And so we’re getting off into the airport and occasionally someone would go up and be like, “Hey, can I get a picture?” I don’t think he was annoyed, but he definitely wasn’t over the top about just like, “Hey, love it. Let’s give me give me more.” Yeah. And also, it’s like, “We’ve been flying for 12 hours. He’s tired.” And so he was standing by the baggage gate. His body language was kind of open to me and I say, “Hey, big fan. Been listening to music for like 20 years.” He said, “Thanks, man.” Walked on. I got my interaction. That was You didn’t like bust out, “Hey, dude, I’m in the country hall of fame for youngest radio host of all time.” And like Nobody cares. I sent back my Dancing with the Stars thing. Like none of that. Nobody cares. Like there there’s common thread there. There’s not cuz he I believe they might rapper. I did have a hip-hop deal for a bit. Captain Caucasian. Yeah. What if he’d have been like, “I’m the biggest Captain Caucasian fan ever.” Yeah. How cool. You want to collab now that we got a little bit older? He’ll play flute on my next track. The only other one was I was in a restaurant in California and was having dinner with a friend and I was walking to the bathroom and I look over like, “Oh, I know that person sitting at the table. They did not have food in front of them yet.” And I was like, “On the way back, I’m going to say something.” So, I go to the bathroom, wash my hands just in case he wanted to shake hands. Yeah. And wash my hands. We sit down and I walk by and it was David Spade. I said, “Hey, David Spade, super funny, big fan, man.” He goes, “Thanks, man.” Kept walking, right? Had my interaction. And I was talking about that because I think there are general rules where it’s if you see somebody that’s famous or known, if they’re with their kids, do not approach. If they have food in front of them, do not approach. Any other time, they know who they are. They also have the right to say no, the record, for sure. But if the no kids and no food, you can go up and say, “Hey, I’m a fan.” I’ve also found that most celebrities, if they’re not with their family or eating, they like people to say they’re a fan, right? Because you’re doing your job well and you’re appreciated. And so I I was talking about that on the show and he messaged me on Instagram. I was like, “Hey, man. I really appreciate you not stopping me.” And I was like, “You’re welcome, bud.” you you know the one of these memorable moments for me I was the year that I took over for Brady and we got done with season I was back in LA where I’m from and we went out to this nice steak restaurant and normally hey Brady what do you what do you mean you just threw Luke out there like he was some random name Tom Brady dropping names but I’m saying the year so I the year I played for the Patriots I’m done with season get back to LA we’re out at a steak restaurant and normally people would just come like a Patriot fan every now and then but I’m going to the bathroom. I hear, “Hey, Castle and I was like, I look over and it’s Mark Woolberg and he’s a huge Patriots fan.” Boston guy. Yeah, Boston guy. And of all people, I never thought I was going to see this guy, but he he invites me over. He shakes my hand, tells me, you know, great season, this that. I’m a big Patriot fan. And I was like, that was the coolest interaction ever. Normally, it’s something like, “Hey, will you sign something or do that this that and the other?” But for me, that was like, “Wow, that’s rad. This guy’s a mega superstar.” He’s a mega star. Yeah. Mega superstar. Marky freaking Mark. Marky, dude. I used to jam to that back in the day. Hell yeah. I mean, so that was a cool interaction right there. But that was a few and far between where you get like a mega superstar that’s a sports fan and that’s the only reason he talked to me. Otherwise, you wouldn’t even know anything about it. But it just just so happened that it aligned with that. That’s also like Boston loving their athletes. Oh, that city is wild. It’s Yeah. Like they’re such fanatical, passionate sports fans. If you’re winning, they pedestal you guys like crazy. And it was incredible to be in Boston at the time that I was too because the Celtics won a championship, the Boston Red Sox won a championship. The city was on fire. See, I think I’d want to be the only team winning. Yeah, selfishly that would be. But they had, right? They’d won three Super Bowls the year before I got there. They just accomplished their third Super Bowl, so we were in the heyday. Ken Bellson is coming up next. This guy is veteran New York Times reporter. He’s got a book called Every Day is Sunday. It’s basically Jerry Jones, Robert Craft, and Roger Goodell and how they’ve made the NFL so big. Uh, I’m excited about this interview. We will do that next. Hey, we’re going to bring on Ken Bellson now. We’re going to talk about Everyday Sunday. And I’m going to read the what do you call this? The Cuz I wrote books and it was like the title. Hey Ken, what do you call the thing I’m about to read? How Jerry Jones, Robert Craft, and Roger Goodell turned the NFL into a cultural and economic juggernaut. What’s the official title? What’s What is that called? The subheader. Yeah, sub subtitle or a subhead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the book’s called Every Day of Sunday. And you if you were to do the whole thing, it would take you like an hour. But that’s awesome because I mean these are as far as like sports culture, you really get no no bigger than these three. I want to ask first about Roger Goodell. I met Roger Goodell once and he had the absolute strongest handshake of any man that I have ever shaken hands with. Have you ever shaken Roger Goodell’s hand? U yeah. Not only have I done that, but he like like did a chest pump thing with me once that was like it felt like I was back in a high school football gym uh locker room thing. And and this the weird thing is it was in federal court. I was covering um the Sunday ticket trial which is in LA um in 2024 and he the reason I went that particular day was that Roger was on the stand which is very unusual to see a commissioner in a federal trial on the court on on the in the jury on the um on the stand and so uh he had he had finished the morning session and uh he knew I was there cuz I had said hello to him at the beginning and when he walked out you know he walked through the aisle the middle aisle and you know the reporters and the lawyers were all standing up to stretch cuz it was a lunch break and he went past me and he like took his fist and he like pounded my chest like, “Hey, bro.” And it was it was kind of startling. Um strong man, but yeah. So he he’s a strong guy for sure. He’s big, relatively big. You had talked about uh Mr. Goodell and kind of uh compared him to like a whip, a Senate majority leader like uh and I because what we know of him is the face. We know he’s making decisions, but we don’t really get to see how that sausage is made. Like, what do you think his superpower is? Yeah. So, that that’s a great observation. I’m glad you brought it up because I think uh the average fan looks at him and says, “Okay, he’s the guy I boo on draft day. He’s the guy responsible for my team’s favorite running back for being suspended or whatever it is. He’s he takes that’s part of his job, which is to police the league itself, the the players. But in reality, the people who hire him are the owners. The NFL, unlike most of the other leagues or compared to the other leagues, is much more owner driven. Uh everything has to go to votes 24 minimum of 24. So Roger, I mean, Roger has his own ideas and his own vision for the league, but he doesn’t necessarily drive the bus. He kind of really good at synthesizing what the owners want and what their visions are. And frankly, you know, there’s some pretty astute owners uh on the media front. What do they do about gambling international? Um I’m sure AI will come up in a year or two. So these owners are smart from their own businesses and Roger sort of channels them. And so that’s why I compared him to a Senate whip because he’s always looking for how do I get to 24 votes. Uh and you know on rare occasions he puts himself out there. one being like the tush push couple of year a year ago and it actually failed. That was a rare instance where Roger was kind of was was in front on that issue. But most of the time he’s he’s just channeling what the owners want and and what he thinks um you know will be better for the league and frankly to make them more money I think is the bottom line. In the book, you talk about the power brokers being Jerry Jones, Robert Craft, two guys actually I was part of both of their organizations and two very different personalities, but how in this this market that you’re talking about in the marketplace in the NFL, how do they complement each other and how do they also compete against each other? Obviously, uh they compete on the field. They totally complement each other in a ways I didn’t fully appreciate when I started doing the reporting. Jerry is like this bubbling idea guy. He’s like the mad scientist. He’s constantly looking at ways where can we where can we promote the NFL. He he is a abs the absolute firmst believer in the power of the shield and has from the time he took over. It’s one of the reasons he bought the Cowboys. And so he’s constantly coming up ideas but he is not necessarily the closer. Um, and sometimes he can just wear people out with his ideas. There’s a great quote from Robert about Jerry. He could charm a dog off a meat truck. Um, you know, he’s he’s just he works the phones. He still has a flip phone, I think. And, um, he’s constantly just selling. Uh, it’s not about the money, it’s about the deal and the chase. And so, um, whereas Robert, I think, is a little more in the shadows in the sense that he is more the closer. um the guy who tries to get to a win-win for say the networks in the league uh or a sponsor in the league. And I think that is Robert’s skill. He’s a bit more diplomatic. He’s not necessarily the ideas guy, but he’s the guy that can get it over the finish line. I’m curious your perception and experience with Jerry Jones. Both Matt and I have a different relationship with him, but both were so good in that I emailed the random Dallas Cowboy website once because I didn’t know how to get a hold of Jerry. Next thing you know, I’m in the chopper with Jerry and his family. It’s literally five of us. It’s him, his son, me, my wife, and like my friends. And Jerry’s taking us in the chopper. We’re landing. He’s walking us around. He’s like, “You these people don’t want to see me. They” And like I was so You use the word charmed. I was so charmed. like is that generally what he does to people is make them love him because both of us had such a wonderful relationship. Yeah, Jerry is a natural um it’s it’s just in his blood. You could tell a part of his story and I was not the first to report it. he tells it all the time was when he was a kid and growing up in uh Little Rock, North Little Rock, his dad had a grocery store and he to bring in customers, they basically put little Jerry up there in cowboy outfits to kind of charm the the moms coming in to do grocery shopping. So, he’s been kind of a showman from a very young age. And he understood the connection between being a good showman and making money, literally helping his dad sell groceries by by presenting entertainment, cute entertainment. And it’s just in his blood. He has that kind of twinkle. I’ll tell you one other story. I’ve been up in a helicopter, too, and with him and um he doesn’t know how to use the headset. So, and he was flying on Yeah, exactly. you got to hit the button to talk and whatever. It was a total fiasco. Totally. I couldn’t hear a word he was saying. It was so noisy. And so we take we’re in we’re going around the star in Fris and um the photographer loved it. Right. We’re getting in these aerial photos. We get back to Love Fields and he uh he has that kind of charm and he’s like, “Yeah, I think we should talk some more.” Cuz I had like nothing in my notebook. And we sat in the hanger at a table for another hour and a half. Wow. Like I’m sure he was booked and had to go somewhere, but Jerry was going to finish that and I had come, you know, down to Dallas to do that interview. So like that’s a guy who’s committed. A lot of other people, first of all, they wouldn’t have taken me up in a helicopter. And number two, wouldn’t have spent twice as much time with me just to make sure I had what I needed. Do you think this the NFL would have the same success without a Jerry Jones, without Robert Craft or Roger Goodell? How much of an impact have they had that maybe otherwise they the NFL wouldn’t have the same success? Yeah. Uh I think about that a lot. You know, the the whatifs. Um you know, Jerry and Robert, this is in the the Jerry Cayman in ’89 and Robert in ’94 at that time paid record amounts for their team teams. And I mean, it’s hard to believe Jerry paid 115 million for the Cowboys. They’re worth like 12 billion now. Um but uh but that was big money when it went to nine figures, when it passed a h 100red million. Now you’re you’re kind of talking about a slimmer group of people able to get into the NFL. And they were part of a wave in the ‘9s of like wealthy business people, smart business people were coming in, not just football people and not people just interested in dabbling. And so you had Wayne Heisinger uh in Miami. He owned Blockbuster and a bunch of other things. um Jeffrey Lori from the Lowe’s uh hotel chain. Uh so you have like bigger money people coming in. So they were not alone and I think that changed the thinking in the league from hey football is played you know you go to mass then you come to the stadium then you play at 1:00 and you go home. Um and then you got people like Jerry and Robert who went into debt to buy their teams and they really needed new ideas to make back their money. And so that really fueled it. I think Jerry and Robert were probably the best equipped. Um I think Heisinger had lots of other businesses and he was partly distracted. U Jeffrey Lorie just, you know, doesn’t want to necessarily lead from the front, but Jerry and Robert definitely were part of that wave, but they were very much more um willing to put in the extra hours on behalf of the league, not just their teams. So, I’d say that’s why it would have been a very different league. I don’t think they would have grown as quickly. They would have grown, but not nearly as quickly. Uh the book definitely covers economic growth and just growth in general of the sport because in our life we have seen an NFL boom. Any chance, this is just your opinion here. Did the NFL at times grow too fast where they couldn’t keep up? It’s a great question and frankly you’re the first person to ask it that way. Um so so yeah, there’s a question of like how much is too much. um the NFL uh and and Paul Tagiblyoo’s period is really where uh it it most took hold. Um but there was, you know, there’s NFL properties which is the for-profit arm of the NFL. The NFL league itself is just it, you know, governs the the sport and and those were the Wild West days in the 80s and the early 90s where they were signing deals all over the place, different sponsorships. um you know you didn’t have necessarily exclusivity so you didn’t have like Nike as the official par apparel company so you had like six companies and at that point it gets kind of chaotic because everybody’s kind of grabbing at the same there’s you can you can saturate the market if it’s not done carefully and so yes there there was in some ways it was a hungry period and there was money to be made but it was it was the sales team was kind of running the show and without the same kind of game plan I think when Paul Tagubu comes in in 1989, one of the first things he does or a year or two into it, he settles the labor problem. Players get free agency. That was like a big big deal obviously. And then there’s revenue sharing. But then he hires a guy named Neil Austrian who is in the early part of the book. And Neil is a very experienced business person, not a sports guy. He worked at Warner Brothers, he worked in um IBM, lots of corporate experience. And he basically said, “You run the business.” And at that point the NFL said, “Okay, let’s rationalize this.” So you had Sunday Ticket came in uh in ’94. And then the league starts signing exclusivity deal exclusive deals. So instead of having five apparel makers, they say, “Let’s just go with Reebok.” Um instead of having a bunch of different soda companies, let’s just do Coke. And so you could charge a premium for that exclusivity. And so I think that kind of streamlined the business. and that those wild west days of of you know sales guys just signing deals left and right kind of dissolved a little bit and the uh the NFL became a little more efficient I guess is a better way of looking at it. In the foreseeable future do you see anything that could hinder the growth of the NFL? I mean, the one thing that I can only think of is the collective bargaining agreement that they can’t come to the table on both sides because I was part of the lockout in 2011, I believe it was, and it was back and forth, and that’s the only thing that I could see in the foreseeable future that would slow down the growth. But I would love to hear your opinion on that. Sure. I mean, obviously, labor uh is huge. They and the union right now doesn’t just have an interim leader, so there’s issues on the player side as well. Uh, and that’s always out there, although I think there’s still several years away, another half decade to go on the current deal. But there’s a lot of stuff out there. Just think of, let’s talk really broadly about the demographics of America. There’s just essentially a slowing birth rate, which means fewer kids, which means fewer young athletes, which potentially means fewer young football players, and potentially fewer NFL fans. And that is what’s driving part of what’s driving the NFL to play overseas, to find new fans. I mean, you know, 93 out of the top 100 broadcasts a few years ago were NFL games. Um, like how much more can you saturate American audiences with football? Um, and they’re not even at the 18th game yet. So, that’s one is is just the the demographics of America. And by the way, you know, baseball and other sports deal with this, too. And then you get gambling, which we haven’t discussed yet. And that could that is already changing the contours, the relationship with the fans. um it’s really fracturing, frankly, the way people watch sports in general, but particularly the NFL. Now, you’re literally betting on your phone in real time. And so, the whole viewing experience is completely distorted. Instead of waiting until the end of the game to find the score, you’re betting on plays in the middle of the game. And I just think that like it this it has fractured the sports viewing experience. And I think the leagues plural are going to have a challenge. Um there’s a great book called Dopamine Nation and this is just part of a larger trend of you know fantasy football being one but smartphones uh you know and that when I started playing fantasy football 25 years ago I had to go to a desktop computer and refresh 18 times to get my score you know um these days it’s on my phone automatically. So uh yeah it’s it’s it’s not just an NFL problem but it but it is an acute problem. Yeah. I want to go back to Roger Goodell for a second and he’s had to na navigate through a lot and and I’m talking about concussions. I’m talking about social injustice. Uh and what would you say was his biggest accomplishment while he has been a leader of the NFL? Um you know, credit where it’s due, the whole concussion protocol, just as an example, taking a player out of a game, having spotters and neurologists on the sidelines. um players themselves self diagnosing um you know the blue tent all all these things didn’t exist you know until what 10 years ago and now you know there’s an actual formal protocol you of course still have examples like tua uh and and players who who seem to get back you know before they’re ready but just as many players now sit out and and maybe more and so you know that’s something that he probably deserves some credit for in pushing the league to to try and um address these pretty big and really frankly fundamental problems. Um there’s a lot of marketing and messaging around safer helmets and youth football and um flag football and some of them are good, some I mean helmets are nice, but they’re not going to prevent a concussion. Um but I would say the concussion protocol stuff is has been a big game changer. We are an NFL podcast. They pay us. We work for the NFL and we also know who the boss is. Now, we have never had a guest that we’ve booked and they’ve said no, but they can say no because they are inevitably our boss. This book, I feel like, is so comprehensive that is a lot of great stuff. There’s also some honesty here that maybe makes versions of the NFL go, “Man, I wish we’d have done a better job at this point.” Why would the NFL let us have you on since this is not a complete I love the NFL book? I don’t know whether they’ve intervened or they actually look over your booking schedule. They do. No, they do. Why do they love you? Oh, they do. Yeah. I don’t know if they love me, but I think they’ve I I have to say the NFL uh I think they know who I am. And um you know, I’d like to think the book is deeply reported. I’ve spoken to oh at least a dozen owners for the book. um union people, network people um thorough I think thoroughly uh research the book and so from that perspective you know I think they can appreciate the effort that went into it. Um it’s not a gotcha book in that sense. Uh and in one review of the book somebody said there are no heroes. I’d like to think that’s probably true. Uh and I didn’t write it as a palemic. I wrote it as like a reported uh history, if you want to call it that, or contemporary history. So, I think it’s fair in that sense. And yeah, there’s stuff I’m sure they would like not to be in the book, but that also gives it authenticity. I hope it’s not a cheerleading book. Um, you know, there’s a fine line between giving Jerry Jones and Robert Craft and Roger Goodell credit for making a lot of money. It’s a business book. On the other hand, you know, like it’s up to the reader to decide whether that’s greed and and maybe that’s too much, right? Um, but I’m I’m not trying to tilt the scales in that sense. Final question, Ken, being the reporter you are that have reported on so many things, different types of things. Uh, I have a couple friends that also do a job similar to yours, and they just talk about how they text and text and text, and so many texts are just not returned. Is that a big part of your career, just texting and being left on red all the time? Yeah, it’s part of the job. Um, I will say, you know, I I’ve been asked a lot like how long did it take you to write the book? And and the the short answer is I started it in 2022 and got the contract in 23 to to start writing. Um, but the real answer is 2013 when I started covering the league full-time because the book didn’t happen without relationships I had already had with Pick the Owner, Art Rooney, uh, Shod Khan, Arthur Blank, um, Robert Craft, so forth. So, like, you know, when I got the book, I already knew them for 9 or 10 years, and they do pick up your calls, or at least they take you seriously. And, uh, I’ll be honest, like, they’re busy people, right? I get it. So just getting time in Arthur Blank’s schedule took like three months, you know, or two months, I don’t know. Um Shod Khan, I ended up um speaking to him for 4 hours uh on a Saturday before a day before a game. Um but you know, that took months to to sort out. They’re just busy people, so I get it. And I’m asking them for a favor. I think the owners who sat with me obviously were were interested in talking about for instance the 2011 lockout um TV deals whatever but you know you’re you’re just juggling a lot um uh then you know the network people all these things very few people just call you right back um so I get that that’s just part of the job Ken Bellson every day is Sunday how Jerry Jones, Robert Craft, and Roger Goodell turned the NFL into a cultural and economic juggernaut. I know the book’s been out uh since October. I hope you sell a billion copies. I I’m It’s so thorough. You can order the book on Amazon, but you can order anything on Amazon. You can order pickle jar. You can order this book. You can order whatever you want, but this book is there. Uh Ken, we really appreciate the time uh spending with us today. And congratulations on the book. Thank you. Great conversation. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Ken. Okay. Thanks to Ken Bellson. I didn’t even get to my Arkansas hiring a new coach. You guys did hire a new coach. Yeah. I tell you what we’re going to do. Uh, we’re going to wrap this and so this will be part one. We’ll have part two coming up in a little bit because we got to get to our topics, too. So, uh, this is lots to say. I’m Bobby Bones. That’s Matt Castle. That’s kickoff Kevin. And we got Morgan over there running cameras today because Brandon because Brandon’s like on El Presidente Florida vacation or something. That’s That’s true. Okay, this is part one. Part two will be up soon. We’ve had lots to say. Say goodbye everybody.

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