Was Harden’s Best Season Overrated or Not?

Was Harden’s Best Season Overrated or Not?

Cuz Harden took a Golden State Warriors team all the way with Kevin Durant, man. Like he was the system. Like he nearly took down the greatest team maybe ever assembled. 2019. James Harden was compared to Michael Jordan. So like he scor Harden had the best full season isolation scoring season ever. I think I think that that’s what that’s what was going on. I was I was listening to James Harden is the best scorer in Why don’t you like Harden? So, I mean, with with him with him being in that space, I mean, don’t get me wrong, I think SJA is a much more efficient shot taker. I think his shot creation has improved over the years. Um, his finishing at the rim is great. Uh, that three ball is definitely improved, especially off the dribble. I mean, he didn’t have that two years ago. He’s definitely got that now. Um, I mean, the fact that he goes to the stripe as much as he does, that doesn’t bother me at all because great players get to the stripe. Kobe Bryant averaged nine free throws a game for his career. So, I’m I’m not trying to hear that from any of you dudes. I saw Michael Jordan in the playoffs against the New York Knicks in the Eastern Conference semi-finals in 1989. 12 free throws a game. So, I’m not trying to hear that [ __ ] about free throws. I that that goes in one hand, out the other with me. Great players get to the stripe. That’s a part of being a great scorer, putting the defense at a disadvantage. So, with that being said, SGA at the at the guard that he is, the shot creator, the bucket getter that he is, and how influential he is on the rest of his guys, it’s it’s it’s been great, and I’m loving it. I think he’s the best player in the league. But chill. Oh boy. Isn’t it true? Isn’t it true that [ __ ] all these all these elite ISO scoring guards Mhm. Mhm. could do this too. Like like for instance for instance for instance for instance in like James Harden 16 17 18 19 James Harden four peak. James Harden would four dudes. If you if you if you put James Harden right here, he would four P. He would fry these dudes 100%. He would be He would be destroying these guys. What do you mean by what? I mean I mean if you put if you transplant No, no, no, no. I’m talking about I’m talking about I’m talking about championship. If you put James Harden that peaked James Harden in place right here, is it not true that he would four Pete? Damn, you put on you might six Pete. [ __ ] on on on this on this Oklahoma City team. Like they’re running the tables. What you’re saying? I’m I’m just saying. I’m ask I’m asking you, Chill. I’m asking I’m just asking. I think that they I I think that they have enough to be honest with you. I think that the Oklahoma City Thunder have enough on defense to make up for the James Harden game that I know I’m going to get in the playoffs. Well, no. Well, wait. But Chad, y’all got to relax though cuz Mars told us that James Harden wasn’t as bad on defense as we thought he was. And y’all agree that he wasn’t No, no, no, no. Even in Even in So, I want the chat who’s over here talking about, “Oh, so [ __ ] defense. defense doesn’t matter because y’all all agreed with Mars when he was up here cooking me and Ron about the fact that James Harden wasn’t as bad on defense as we thought he was. So yeah, I just want y’all to keep it consistent, please. He’s not as good as Shay is though. I don’t think that’s off point. It was cold, but it’s not But I think the defense is He’s a better scorer than Shay though, so it offsets. He’s not a better scorer than Shay. First off, he’s a better passer than Shay. So it offset. Yes, he is. Yes, he is. He is a better passer. And that is where the conversation ends. You don’t think I don’t think that is it. Uh chat, you don’t think Pete Harden has a argument for a better scoreer than Shay? No. Or as good. So at their very No, no, no. We’re not doing that. So when when when Harden went on a full calendar year run, averaging almost 40 on like plus N. He was literally unstoppable. He was Put down the spreadsheet. Swiper. You heard Pin. Put down the spreadsheet. Put down the spreadsheet for a second. There is no spreadsheet. It’s just remember what he was doing. No. He was unbelievable, man. Like I We can’t awesome. I don’t need to What are you doing? Ron, here you go. You know what to do. Oh my god. No, no, no, no. Pen, what are you doing? What am I doing? I want to hear Damen. I want to hear Damen and Ping. Go. Damian, cuz Damian Damian never heardly ever pushed it back, but he felt strong enough about to do it. Go ahead, Damian. Go ahead. No, I think that I think the defensive stuff is is legitimate. Like Harden was never the defender SJA was, but we can’t short change what Harden was doing, man. Back then, Peak Harden was putting together the scoring stretches. he was putting together was like some of the best we have ever seen. Obviously, he was manipulating the game a little bit, but we can’t understate what that guy was doing, man. Like, if we if you want to if you want to talk about some of the greatest peak scoring that’s ever like existed, Harden has to be in the conversation. So, I would I’ve listened to you compare Shay to Cade. No, no, I’m not comparing Sh. No, no. I’ve I’ve listened to you kind of put those two in the same sentence, and I’m trying to tell you that there are stratospheres of difference between No, I’m not putting them in the same sentence in terms of players. I’m putting them in the same sentence in terms of importance to their teams, cuz I don’t think their teams would be as good without them. I’m not saying that Shay and Kate are the same, right? And and and I’m saying that you can never put these two players in a similar sentence in terms of importance to a team, regardless of what load they carry. No, you can’t. I’m looking at this. Well, how do you mean though? Chill. Chill. Just let let Damian let Damian respond real quick cuz How do you mean though? How do you mean? How do you mean they’re not as important? Cuz Harden took a Golden State Warriors team all the way with Kevin Durant, man. Like he was the system. Like he nearly took down the greatest team maybe ever assembled. I think that’s a really fair point. You you you could definitely make that point that James Harden was like that at that point. I’m going to say I don’t like the way James Harden played basketball that year. I thought he was way too ball dominant. I thought his foul baiting was insane. I did not like his defense regardless of what the analytics say. It’s foul baiting. Yeah, but that’s your subjective view on his play. Like the production though is un it’s irrefutable though. But the system is one that creates that type of production with Dan Tony. Wouldn’t you agree? like spread, pick and roll, middle of the floor, James Harden, static static movements, like this. This stuff is designed to fail. I think heliocentric basketball is designed to fail. I think offenses need multiple counterpoints. That’s why the triangle works so well. That’s why the Spurs offense works so well. That’s why the Golden State offense works so well. When you hand one person the ball and just say, “Go create every single offensive look. Step back three, step back three, step back three, dribble drive, dribble drive.” Uh, you know, like that kind of, you know, like that. That’s what the Thunder do. You don’t think the You don’t think the Thunder You don’t think the Thunder catered around the The Thunder have multiple counter points? Hold on. The Thunder have multiple counter points in their offense. J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J J Dub was scoring 40 points in the finals. Shay will get off the peel. Jay is not as ball dominant and is definitely not going to keep chucking if he’s like excuse me. Shay went three for 15 the last in the second half of game seven for 15. He had multiple stretches of missing multiple shots. He wasn’t even efficient in the playoff run relative to Harden has more efficient scoring runs in the playoff than Shay did last year. Uh do you fight that way? I I will agree that Shay was not great in the playoffs last year. He would agree. He said it. What’s that got to do with the conversation? You just you just said play style. Shay’s play style let you less less inefficient less efficient basketball than Jay. This is always a n we get into when we compare like guys who are at the end of their career to the guys who are at the beginning of their career. What’s that got to do? We’re talking about right now. Hold on. I want to be clear about something. The playoffs are a tough adjustment for most young players. We saw LeBron go through it. We saw James Harden go through it. And we saw Shay Gillis Alexander make his first deep run ever and win a championship. I think you need to give some credit to that. What it talking about all the great players? Have we not seen great players? You’re just You’re criticizing Harden for doing something he did better than last year and Kobe not fail early in the playoffs. You’re not even you’re not even you’re not even addressing the actual point because you’re trying to move off of what he said. James Harden even in that run that stretch had more efficient playoff runs as a score than Shade did this last playoff run. How old was he? How many playoff James Harden? You are not playoff efficiency and James Harden and then holding your head as if I’m saying something insane. James Harden is one of the biggest playoff droppers in NBA history. The narratives are so strong. Narratives are strong. This is the fact. It’s funny how you hold on to truth and reality until it comes through against it’s against your agenda. A very strong narative. No. No. This is not this is not me bending reality to my to my agenda. This is not the matrix and I am not Neo. I’m trying to tell you. Let me bend reality for you. Go through James. No, you’re just you’re chatting. I’m saying you’re chatting. You’re moving. You move the conversation. You’re Cuz you moved it to how old was he when we’re talking about actual production. You’re and what and what’s funny is Damian and And what’s funny Damian is we just said in the 1819 season that we brought up you heard we just we just I know you’re emotional about this conversation you got the I I got it I got it. So the issue is Damen what we were just talking about correct me if I’m wrong is James Harden when he averaged 36 a game had the best isolation scoring season of all time averaged 16 isolation attempts in the NBA and was the most efficient isolation scorer we’ve ever seen on volume ever what he just said was there’s not a comparison between James Harden as a scorer and SJ as a scorer and then what he said was he didn’t like the way that he played based on play style so then he admitted it that it was subjective and then what happened is when I brought up if you look at the playoff run that he had that was better than SGA Okay. versus I think very elite competition. I would say better defense at that time versus the Golden State Warriors and others. He performed better on those runs as a score. And then Pin when he heard that argument then moved it to age. Is that not moving the conversation based on what it was? You are talking about two players at very different experience levels in their career. And I think that that matters, Swiper. I think that matters. Does it not? Not for the conversation we’re currently having. Not for the one we’re currently having. No. Go ahead. Damian SGA and Go ahead. I’m sorry, Damian. I’m just saying I thought I think Pen makes my point though in terms of you talked about catering to the offense like the that Danton catered to to James Harden, but if you’re saying that the that Sha’s playing with a guy that can give a team 40 as well in the finals, isn’t the offensive burden on Harden even more impressive? Like all I know was I was watching the Rockets and Utah Jazz in the first round of the playoffs and they were inventing ways different ways of trying to guard James Harden. Ricky Rubio was trying to guard James Harden from behind literally standing. They were inventing new ways of trying to stop this guy. That’s all I know. That guy was unbelievable in his prime hands behind their back. So, in terms of scoring, I think that I think it’s I think it’s definitely a I think it’s definitely a conversation. I’ll give you the defensive stuff, but Harden at his peak, man, was was something. Pen, if I gave you, Penn, if I gave you a 25game stretch from James Harden, 50 and 10, 32 and 10, 47 and 5, 35 and 9, 35 and 12, 39 and 10, 41 and 7, 45 and 6, 41 and 6, 43 and 13, 44 and 15, 38 and 7, 32 and 14, 42 and 6, 43 and 10, 38 and 12, 57, 58, 48, 37, 61, 31 35 40 37 30 43 Penn if SGA was doing that today we’d be calling him the best scoreer ever but I don’t think about I don’t think about games like that chill I don’t think about your box score production as like the be all end all I think about your overall impact on the game I think about how efficient you were think about where you are in your career I think about a lot of things okay I watched James Harden [ __ ] the bed pardon my French so did so us yet? No, he didn’t. There are levels of [ __ ] when he in the Memphis series in the Memphis [ __ ] Hold on, hold on, hold on. Damian, can you look it up? Damian Memphis No, it’s not streaks. He’s moving the pin. No, Jamie, can you look up Can you look up what SJ shot versus the Memphis Grizz? They didn’t need SJ to beat Memphis pen. No, no, that exactly. Exactly. They didn’t. And tell us what he shot in that series, please. Since he said that James Harden sed the bed, I want to know what SJ did versus Memphis for everybody to remember. Since he is just moving the conversation and saying SJ obviously didn’t do it. So now after we correct him, he can say how old was SJA? How old was he? So P. So his age shouldn’t have been 40% from the field, 25%. Wait, no, hold on. Chill. Hold on. No. Yeah. Well, Dame, say what you could say cuz you’re going to go through the games, aren’t you, Chill? So then, so then Damian say the numbers and then go through the games again. He shot 40% from the field and 25% from three. Go through the games. Se that’s in a first round game. That’s game one. Pen 15 on 30% from the floor, 15% at the long ball line. In game two, 34% from the floor, 30% at the long ball line, 27 points. Game three, 38% from the floor, 28% at the long ball line, 31. in game four. 54% from the floor, 25% at the long ball line, 38 points. Was that is that essing the bed, pen? Yes. I don’t think that Shay Gil Alexander was great last year. Okay. But don’t you But don’t you think I don’t think he was great? I don’t think he was great. Yo, what do you think was great? Yeah, I’m not even on that right there. I’m just curious to know like don’t you think that that version 2018 James Harden don’t you think that if he had seven dogs, seven hyenas out there on the defensive end that could just shut that whole side of [ __ ] down and be able to do what he does on the on the on the offensive end, score buckets and kick it to good shooters. Don’t you think that he would thrive? Don’t you think he would win some championships? That’s all I was saying. Now, I’m not saying he’s better than SGA. I don’t think you would win championships. No, because I think championships come down to a hell of a lot more than that. And I and I think I’m sick and tired. Like what, man? Like what? I think it comes down to accountability. I think it comes down to you, your best player playing defense. I think it care it matters that your best player is as selfless as SGA is. I think it matters that your best player hold your second best player, third best player, fourth best player, your coaches, your organization accountable. I think SGA is a championship. SGA does. Yes, he does. walk around like he walked around like Chris Paul big boy pants. No, I want to learn from the best, didn’t he? Yes, he did. He 100% did pen. And I want to stay right where I want to stay right where you are. To have guy to to have guys like that to Ox’s point, to have guys like that on your crew and to be able to have those guys protecting you the way that those guys would protect him. He would compete on the defensive end. That’s number one. He would 100% do that. He would have to. Let’s start. Chill. He would chill. He would chill. He was leading He was leading the league in steals. Now, I understand that leading the league in steel doesn’t make you a great defender. I always say that it does. But yes, it does. No, it absolutely does not make you a great defender. What it means what it what it does is say that you will participate in a defensive scheme. What it means is you will get busy and get in the passing lanes. It means that you’ll reach a little bit. When you got Kin Wallace, Lou Dort Jub in chat with you, that’s all you got to do. All you got to do is just get in the passing lane, put a hand up, boom, the ball’s coming to you. Now, I’m not saying he’s as good of a defender as SGA because I don’t think he is. But I also don’t think SGA is this is this Tony Allen that that that Pin’s trying to make him out to be. What I’m saying is if you got those dudes on the on the court with you and Alice Caruso, who I didn’t mention, and and uh my man Isaiah Hardenstein, who I didn’t mention, when you got that, and you’re the one of the best offensive players we’ve ever seen as far as scoring the basketball, passing the basketball, throwing lobs like James Harden was. You can’t tell me he can’t get on this basketball team and four Pete. I want to get No, chill. Oh, you know what? We we read out some SJA box scores, some field goal attempts and makes or whatever. Here, here’s some. Here’s some. One for 10, two for 18. What year is this? Two for 14. What year is this? Oh, don’t worry. It’s his entire career. No, no, we did one season for SGA, so we just comparing him to Prime Hard. Yes, m Mr. Mr. We were comparing him to one season from Harden. That was the whole conversation. You know what? Let let me just filter out all of Harden’s young young seasons and old seasons and just compare him to one year of James Harden, the magical year you want to talk about. How about this swiper? If you’re going to be able to cherrypick stats, I’m going to cherrypick some stats. The conversation started talking about a career. The conversation started talking. That was the conversation. Why would that do cherry pick it? Go ahead. One for 10. Two for 18. Two for 14. 3 for 20. Two for 12. 3 for 17. Two for 12. 3 for 12. 2 for 12. 2 for 11. 2 for 11. 2 for 11. 2 for 11. 3 for 16. 1 for five. Oh, my bad. My bad. That was young Harden. Let me excuse that. Two for 10. Two for 10. Three for 14. Two for nine. Four for 18. Three for 13. Wait. What are these stats you’re reading, P? What are these? What are these? These are his field goals made and field goals attempted and they lost most of those games over how many years. Like when his 2012 career career 2011 20 Oh, you you you want the years for all those stats? 2021, 2018, 2023, 2019, 2024, 20 uh 2017, 2017, 2015, 2020, 2012, 2015, 2012, 2011, 2012, 2023. It’s his whole damn career. He’s had a lot of way because he does that. He does a lot of these later in the series. And you know what? This matters to me. I’m talking about 16, 17, 18, and 19. There’s certain players that do really well at the start of a series, and there’s certain players who do really well at the end of the series. And guess which one I prefer? I prefer the ones who do well at the end of the series. I never went three. I will never ever come up here and tell you that Shay had a good playoff last year. I was first on the first on the docket. If they lose a championship, he’s going to have the longest summer of his life. And he is very lucky that JDub and Cadet and Alex Caruso did everything that they did to make sure that he didn’t lose that championship cuz that would have been a hell of a narrative. I’ll agree with that. But I will also say that I have seen him come up huge in major moments. I have seen more evidence that Sheay is clutch than James Harden is clutch in the playoffs. To date to date. Yes. In the playoffs. So, I’m gonna say this very transparently to the chat at home. Mr. Swiper here does not like the fact that we are putting SG What did you call me? Mr. Swiper. Mr. Swiper. Mr. Swiper. That’s a That’s a term of respect. I’m respecting. Would you prefer Mr. Swiper? Would you would you prefer that? I just don’t know why we moved the conversation. We’re talking about one season from Harden and then we’re now we’re doing all of Harden’s playoff careers and only his low lightss, none of the highlights. So, that’s the thing. He has more great games in the playoff than Shay does. So would would you like me to bring that up and say, “Oh, Harden is clearly better because you look at the totality of his career. He has more great games in the playoffs than than Shay Gilus Alexander does.” Or would that be dumb? Because James Harden has a full career in the playoffs. Why would I use just his highlights to talk about why he’s better than SGA instead of just simply talking about what they’re doing in their peak? That’s it. That’s it. There’s no point. We can We can both agree. I hope we can both agree that Shay has leveled up this year, right? He looks like we’re talking about scoring, brother. The cover looks like a better passer. He looks like a better passer. He looks like a better three-point shooter. Three-point shooting and pass. Is he a better passer or playmaker? Is he or a better three-point shooter than James Harden? No. None of those pastor and a playmaker than he was last year. James Harden. No. No, he’s not. No, he’s okay. That’s what the conversation was. If you want to end the conversation and change it something else, we can do that. The conversation was about him compared to James. Is he a better three-point shooter, passer, or playmaker than James Harden? No. Is he as good of a a scorer as James Harden? That was the conversation. Yes, I think he is. Sure. I think there’s a conversation to be had. You said there’s no conversation to be had. You did say that, Pen. I’m started. I’m telling you that he is not I I think the conversation ends at defense. That’s where I think I’m I’m going to say I think he’s I’m talking about scoring pitch. But you think Joic is a worse defender than Shay, but you think Joic is a better player than Shay. So like obviously defense is the endall. But but we’re not comparing them as players. This started as who is simply the better scoring literally this literally If we could have a conversation about them as a scorer, we cannot have a conversation in my opinion about them as players overall right now. Why would we? We weren’t having a conversation about that at all. We were talking only about scoring and then Damen after you said there’s no conversation. Damen said there has to be a conversation. So then we had a conversation. What is the gap between SGA and Harden? And who is that in favor of as scores? Strictly just scores. I think the gap is openness. I think Sheay gets more open. That’s that’s kind of where I’m at right now. I think he just has he has a little bit more length, a little bit more size, a little bit more height, a little bit, you know, his hands are a little bit bigger. I think he just has a little bit more control over it. Whereas I think when I I like to do this. I like to break down game film and I’ll look at how open you got on your release. Michael Jordan probably the most open player ever. He got open ridiculous amounts. It didn’t matter who you put on him, he was always open. I think the greatest players of all time get open. Kawhai got open a lot. Demar De Rozan couldn’t get open. The difference here is Sheay gets open more. Last year he was just breaking shots. He was missing threes. This year I think he’s leveled up. I think we’d be having a very different conversation about Shay in the playoffs. This year because that three ball is the great equalizer in the playoffs. So I think I think Shay is a better player. So you’re hoping you’re saying you don’t think he’s going to shoot 29% from three in a playoff running game basically? Hell no. I don’t think so. And if he does, we can have a conversation about a pattern emerging and that will be a very troubling pattern. At that point, that makes him such a great scorer though is which I am on Shay’s side in a lot of this. Shay doesn’t need a three ball to be a dominant scoreer. I think that is where he is. He is one of the very best mid-range middle to floor scorers of all time. So, he doesn’t even need a three ball. The three ball is just like, you know, cool, great. you know, now now you’re like you’re you’ve you’ve it gives you this much more leverage. But in terms of getting to the middle of the floor and driving, I mean, Shay, that alone puts him in combos of best score in the NBA. That that the three ball is just kind of like, all right, we we have no best score in the NBA right now. Swiper, I think between him and Yo, I think Yok is having a crazy scoring scene between him and him. Yeah, absolutely. Between him and him and depending on the dude in Los Angeles averaging 35 a game. I don’t know about that. You said who, Lucas? A dude in Los Angeles averaging 35 a game. Yeah, but I I think and and I think you know, real talking to chat, I’ve been talking about this a lot. Lucas scoring, how he’s scoring this year is uh you know, yes, just I I just I personally disagree with that. I I’m with Chill. I think Luca Dantis is the best scorer in the league.

The panel breaks down Peak James Harden’s historic scoring season and what would happen if he joined today’s OKC Thunder roster. The Panel debate whether OKC could have 4-peated and if Harden’s iso-heavy play style would help or hurt a title run. The Panel also compare SGA vs Peak Harden and discuss who fits this young OKC team better. If you love NBA debates, OKC basketball, or James Harden talk, this video is for you.
🔴 Full Episode: https://www.youtube.com/live/LEdDcxiqK4E

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