How will Gavin Brindley and the Colorado Avalanche Depth Evolve? | DNVR Avalanche Podcast

loose. [music] [music] [music] [music] Heat. >> [music] [music] >> Welcome in to the DNVR Avalanche podcast live from the Toyota Lounge powered by your Front Range Toyota dealerships and presented [music] by Bet 365. We’ve got Bailey, we’ve got AJ, we’ve got Rudo on another off day show for the Avalanche. Two days rest for the second time in 5 days. Love it. >> Actually, not a crazy schedule for once. Uh, ABS in a great spot in the NHL. We’ve talked a lot about how great they are. We’ve talked a lot about their depth. We want to get back into that depth conversation again today. Uh, before we dive in though, make sure you go over to thevr.com, check out AJ’s new piece on a bunch of trade targets possible for the ABS. We’ll touch on it a little bit in today’s show, but if you want the full menu of trade options, AJ’s got a whole list of them in there that he talks about. So, >> read something, too. >> Yeah, you cut cut a few because Crosby’s not getting traded. Just accept it, world. It’s not happening. >> I cut I cut Crosby. I cut Tage Thompson. Like, uh, and I I cut Robert Thomas. You guys You guys should be very thankful. I kept it on planet Earth. See, but that’s no fun. AJ, come on. [laughter] >> Okay, but that’s my brand, Bailey. No fun in my brain. >> I need the I I need the tinfoil hat somewhere. >> From what I’ve heard before the show, we might get into some tinfoil hat theory. [laughter] So, uh we’ll see. Exactly. [laughter] >> Uh >> okay. >> Uh before Before [laughter] we get into the trade targets, I wanted to start with the ABS actual lineup itself. I don’t know if it’s officially official on record, but Bednar basically said, “Hey, we’d like a 3C.” AB’s probably looking for a 3C. They’ve shook up the way they have their depth organized a little bit. Let’s start here. Is is the Jack Drury 3C dream dead? Is he now 4C and that’s what it’s going to be >> based on Bedar’s comments? That’s a lot of what it’s looking like. >> Okay. >> Um I do think it’s important to note in when he did say this, >> he’s kind of giving Ross Colton the Jack Drury treatment for that 3C that Jack Drury got for that 3C role at the beginning of the season. >> And he really liked him there like that. That’s and so that’s factoring a lot into that conversation and if Colton can continue to be serviceable there like I I think they continue to roll with that for a while but I don’t know I feel like from what we’ve seen so far with Jack Dur at 4C you’re going to get a lot more out of him you’re going to get a Jack Dur who you can manage just a little bit more and encouraged to have some of those step ups that you maybe were were looking for in a in a 3C that you weren’t Do you want a conspiracy theory? >> Sure. >> The ABS and and Colton have kind of been at odds for a while now. And um it’s not a huge secret that Ross Colton has been involved heavily involved in trade discussions over each of the last two off seasons. and knowing that their relationship could be coming to an end after next season. The Avalancher looking at where they are in the standings and saying, “We’re way out in front of these fools. We can showcase Ross Colton at center >> for another team to goose that value a little bit.” >> Sure. >> This is my conspiracy theory that I came up with while Bailey was talking. So, it [laughter] is very well thought out and uh at the moment I will say makes perfect sense to me. [snorts] >> I like it. >> Okay. I think the Drury and Colton I don’t I wouldn’t call it a situation, but I think it’s interesting when you look at the two players because Jack Drury is while maybe not producing at the level you want a 3C to produce at on pace to match his career high in points this season. For him, he’s producing fine for a 3C. I think the real conversation with Colton there is Colton drives a decent amount of play. Jack Drury really doesn’t drive any play by himself. He can function on a line that has a play driver, but he isn’t the guy that’s driving the play, especially when you compare him to Colton. And we’re 33 games in now. We I think the ABS have a better grasp of who Victor Olivesson is. Also a guy that doesn’t drive play. [clears throat] He’s a guy that can get you points, but not going to going to do a lot of the heavy lifting on getting the puck going in the right direction. And then you have that other winger where we’ve seen a multitude of guys swap through that spot whether it be Colton himself, whether it be Brinley, Nachushkin has been there, Landiskog has been there. Kind of an unsettled spot in the ABS lineup. So I my assumption is Bedar likes Colton’s play driving there to add a little bit of offensive stability to that line. >> Definitely. And I think that with Drury, uh, we’re talking about he’s on a 27point pace, uh, as as y’all mentioned, uh, career high that would that would match his career high that he set in basically like his rookie year. Um, that’s fine. >> Yeah. >> Like I’m not looking at it. I wrote about this in my piece today. It starts with did the Jack Drury experiment fail? No. But he also hasn’t like grabbed hold of it and run with it in such a way that this isn’t a conversation. And frankly, I don’t know that this is so much of a conversation because of anything Jack Drury did or didn’t do, but more because what’s behind Drury at the fourth line center spot. >> Sure. >> Bart Bardikov has just been all right. >> Hasn’t earned the trust. Yeah. I’m I’m the hater there where I just >> BAR so >> kind of bad. I [laughter] think it’s been kind of bad and really like with Bardikov it’s not good enough in his own zone and when that’s not good enough a guy that’s playing a checking role isn’t going to stick. >> Yep. >> That’s real tough. There’s a lot to like about Bardikov but he really needed to be on a bad team. >> No. >> Having him be in in Colorado really really hurt him. >> No. And it’s I feel like an easy conversation at that point then too with that lack of trust. Who are you going to pick? The guy who you’re hoping can fill that spot maybe down the road or Jack Drury who you already know is an Elite 4C who has more than earned that spot. >> Yeah. >> Yep. And that’s that’s that’s it. Jack Dury, you know, you know that the Parker Kelly, Jack, Drury, Logan, Okconor trio rocked when they were together >> was at times in a seven game series against freaking Dallas at times your best line. >> Like, you know that that trio was really, really good and effective. And so, it’s not so much anything to do with what Drury has or hasn’t done. It’s how the chips have kind of fallen around him. That said, if he was on a 35point pace and was maybe pushing it closer to 40, this wouldn’t be a conversation. The conversation would be about the Sam Carrick and Nick Dows of the world. >> You know, the the 4C types where you’re like, we’re completely fine with this. Jack Drury just and and I think we’re more comfortable with who Jack Drury isn’t after after what we’ve seen so far this year, which is one of those like high-end third line centers that would be a second line center on bad teams. >> Yeah. >> And that’s okay. who Jack Drury is very valuable, very good fit in Colorado. A guy that I should get should get a solid multi-year deal next summer and the ABS pay, you know, give him a decent raise and keep him around for a while. >> Absolutely. Really solid. He’s a really solid player. And that’s this is in no way >> in no way am I hating on Jack Drury at all. I’m just saying he hasn’t quite done enough offensively to slam the door shut on the conversation. And that’s why in in the piece that I wrote today, I looked at both 3C options and stuck a few 4C options in there with one super deep dark horse that I like that everybody else won’t. So that I I just think that that’s where they are right now with regards to the Jack Drury conversation in particular. >> It hasn’t failed. He’s not a bum. Nothing like that. This isn’t the this this is a a product of what is of his environment, not of his own personal play. So, let’s look in front of Jack Drury then, and we see Ross Colton. Is there a world where he’s the long-term answer to 3C? I know you said he’s potentially on the block, all of that, but could the ABS just live with it? >> Yeah, if they wanted to and if he wanted to. He’s 29 and the things that make him valuable are things that aren’t going to age particularly well. So there is some consideration to capitalizing on value at at peak, but for me that’s after this season. I don’t want to do it during the season. For once, the Avalanche aren’t in such a cap crunch that they’re looking at this going, “Oh god, what are we going to do? We have to get rid of somebody. we have if we’re going to make a meaningful addition. I talk about it almost every game at this point. But Ross Colton shows up in a game proves his value. Even if he’s not getting on a score sheet, he is winning a battle along the wall. He is driving play. He’s getting feisty. He’s getting he’s getting the team energized. He does so many intangible things that that help move the club forward towards victory. Even if it’s not box score stats, and his box score stats, he’s about a 40point guy. Again, >> I I am in no hurry to move on from Ross Colton. I think that they should be come I I think they should be closer to saying we’re not interested in moving Ross Colton at all >> than they should be in putting him into a deal. There are other guys that I would deal first, but there’s a there’s a reason that Colton’s value is going to be higher, and it’s because of all the things that I’m talking about. Teams want that stuff, and I’m worried that if Colorado is going to get rid of that guy, they lose that edge. They need to keep that edge right now. Lines one through four, the first line with Nathan McKinnon is hard to play against because he never had the puck. And that’s freaking Nathan McKinnon. The second line, I call it the tower of power. It’s a bunch of big guys that hunt pucks, make life absolutely miserable for you. Right. Your third line, Ross Colton is kind of like your feisty guy. That’s dog on a bone. >> Yep. >> And he drives play. He’s got a history of it. There’s a lot of positive there. But the rest of the line, a little quiet, a little soft. >> And your fourth line is your classic fourth line. It’s good. It’s got some edge. It’s got some feistiness, but Colton is kind of your lynch pin in your bottom six for offensive production. and that that competitiveness that you need in the postseason, that feistiness, that anchor. He plays with enough hatred in his heart to get you through four rounds in the postseason. Victor Olivesson, I really like him. He doesn’t do that. Gavin Brinley, I love that little guy. He a little spark plug. He’s a ton of fun. He doesn’t do that. He He plays hard. He’s got a high work rate, but that that competitiveness, that hard to play against that he brings that physical edge. It does it doesn’t exist in the same manner with him. I mean, at the end competitiveness, he’s just 5’8. Yeah, >> exactly. [laughter] He tries, but that guy’s not winning board battles in the same way. He’s not hitting guys. He’s not going to walk right along that line where you’re like, is this guy a dick? Gavin Brinley doesn’t do that. And you need that sandpaper element to your lineup. And Ross Colton brings it. He’s really valuable. I I am not in a hurry to move on from him, but when we’re having this conversation about like he’s he’s a better wing than center, and that’s unfortunately just where we’re at with it. >> Yeah. >> Okay. It’s Is that the ultimate solution then? ABS do something to get Colton permanently on the wing in their bottom six? >> Yeah, >> that’s the idea. Okay, >> I would say. >> All right. What is I mean the the big worry there then is you have some of these assets that are performing just okay for you. What are you willing to move to make that happen? >> Sure. >> And that that’s where it becomes I think a little bit more of a difficult conversation for me personally given you know some of the ceiling like the ceiling for some of these guys on this team. >> Yeah. I mean if we’re living in fantasy land the perfect world is the ABS give up no roster players to get that solution right. But how realistic is that? Who knows? >> We’ve also been through a situation where maybe they haven’t done that and they’ve given up a lot of their draft capital and >> they don’t have a ton of assets. They don’t. And so like they they’ve already gone through that and exhausted that option >> in past years and haven’t gotten as complete of a team. This team is arguably more complete than the team they created in giving up a lot of that capital. >> I certainly the most complete team since 22. I don’t even think it’s even close. >> It’s really a great point, Bailey, that they’ve worked so hard to build this team that their assets are very limited at this point. They’ve got cap space that they can dance around with, >> but assets not amazing. >> No, you got a couple seconds to work with. I mean, it’s not nothing, but it’s not a lot. And frankly, Franchesco Delche looks like a really good pick right now. >> He does. >> He does. >> Yeah. >> Don’t Will Zeers? >> Uh, we do need to take our first break of the show. I do want to talk about the ABS wing depth a little bit more on the other side, but let’s hear from our sponsors. If you’re a longtime viewer of the show, you’ve probably heard us talk about Ant Credit Union, the Broncos Credit Checking Product, and all the awesome perks it comes with, like the game day discounts at Empower Field, the chance to win Broncos tickets, and even exclusive merch. Well, Ant has decided to pile on even more perks than just that. For those of you who are interested in signing up, they’re giving you $200. Yep. $200 will be dropped right into your account after meeting just a few easy requirements. And the debit cards that you can get with them absolutely fire. You can get the Broncos branded one. You can get a BIX one. Or you can even get a PS2 throwback card. 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Uh the winger conversation with the ABS. We’ve had it a lot. Their depth there is legitimate. And I don’t want to call it a a wrench in the gears necessarily because it’s been a pleasant surprise of Gavin Brinley being an everyday NHLer for the ABS this year, but it has created a situation where, you know, this LOC injury has dragged out longer than I think people were hoping for with what the soft tissue issue or whatever you want to call it that he’s been dealing with. But he is skating on his own now. There is an expectation that he should be back eventually. >> When is that though? [laughter] as opposed to not coming back at all. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> No, update from Benar today, by the way. He still said nothing to give. So, >> we we lived through three years of eventually with Gabe Landiskog. I’m on guard with this. [laughter] >> Yeah, fair enough. But how do you actually end up shaking out the ABS bottom six wingers? Because Brinley’s making it really hard to take him out of the lineup. You have Parker Kelly who’s not coming out of the lineup. You have Logan O’Connor if he gets healthy is in your lineup. So that leaves Victor Olifson and Yoel Kivir. >> Yep. >> As the one of them ends up being the extra winger in a perfectly healthy world. >> Yeah, >> I I might differ from what Jared Bednar thinks, but I’m keeping Olivesson in over Kiva. Given how they’ve played this year, >> I haven’t loved Kirant’s last couple games either. >> It’s and I know the thing everyone will fall back on with Kivy is he can penalty kill. His defensive [clears throat] side is really good. He matches that fourth line type of player. >> But at the same time though, I I also talked with a Jared Bard today who was like, we have so many guys on this team who can penalty kill. >> So like Kir’s Yeah. decent penalty killer. I mean, arguably can be a really good one, but what are you getting out of him besides that that another player can’t provide? >> And that’s where I’m at with it. Victor Olivesson has 19 points in 33 games. Yes, I know it’s a bit streaky. Yes, I know you want more of that to be goals than some of the assists he’s picking up, but are you really taking a forward with 19 points out of the lineup for a forward who has two to stay in the lineup? Yeah, I think that if your fourth line is Kelly, Drury, Logan, Okconor, Kimmy Rant’s out. >> Okay. >> Easily. And depending on what happens with that 3C situation, it’s either Colton center and then the conversation becomes all of be friendly. Fair conversation. Um, >> that’s a tradeway, which we’ll get to in a minute. Yeah, >> exactly. And if and if Colton is at center, then Olaf and Brinley and we we saw that line against Seattle. It was god awful. >> Yeah. >> Uh too easy to play against a a real mess. Uh that that line is going to play itself into some bad decisions. Um I I I say hard decisions. So that I I just think that that’s if you put Kimmy Ron on your third line, you’re getting into the problem that you had last year where you’re relying on Kimmy Ron to score goals. You don’t want to do that. Everybody Everybody knew that Kimmy Rant’s offensive outburst was an aberration last year. Victor Olson quiet. He’s been quiet for a while now. And he’s had he’s had a couple of okay games recently. I I don’t I don’t >> scored a goal finally. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. And it was a nice one, too. a little lucky, but just turn and fire and look at that thing. It was like, yes, that’s what you want from him. >> Yep. >> Anyway, real real positives there in a world where there’s no loc. I mean, they’re all just in easy and then you’re maybe talking about a deadline edition of like a winger if you need if you needed it or >> or the center to slide Colt in the wing, whatever. Yeah. >> Right. like it’s it’s just a how healthy is loc to be because I think he’s he’s such a key component to your bottom six that if he’s healthy he’s in that that means somebody has to come out and Kivir is the most limited of those players so I’m pulling him out first and then I’m having the Olivesson Brimley conversation and that I’m from from from where I’m sitting I’m probably just going to ride a hot hand. >> Sure. >> When one of those guys plays well, he stays in the lineup. When he has a bad game, the other guy comes in and it’s on him to keep that job. Like that’s that’s how I would most likely approach that. So, their wing depth is great. They really don’t need to do anything there, especially if we’re believing that Colton is really a wing. Parker Kelly is really a wing. like you’re in a you’re in a really good comfortable situation there. And if need be, Jack Jury moves up to that 3C, you bring Vardicov back into 4C and you’re back to that. >> Those lineups had an awful lot of success. So, we don’t have to sit here and pretend otherwise. There’s a lot of success. So, it’s not the worst situation in the world. It’s just an area of the roster that you can clearly point to and say this can get better because at specifically in the forwards, is there another area that you think there’s a clear upgrade to be made here outside of like something silly like a like a Sydney Crosby deal where you’re like, “Yeah, obviously, but like a realistic you’re on planet Earth.” Is there another area of your roster that you’re saying you’re you’re going to be able to afford to make this trade and that and and pay that guy and that guy is going to be a clear upgrade in your lineup? >> Well, where else would it be? >> Before we get into trades, let me stick with internal here and and dabble with an idea of you mentioned Colton Brinley did not look great in that Seattle game by any chance. Probably Brinley’s worst game as an AB. Um, >> is there any thought to dabbling with moving one of Olivesson and Brinley up the lineup and putting a Lechanin, a Landiskog, a Nushkin back on that third line? >> Nope. >> Okay. >> Lechan definitely not. >> Okay. >> I I wouldn’t touch that with a 10 and a half foot pole. I think he’s he’s doing he compliments that line so well. I think there could be a conversation for maybe a Nichushkin or a Landiskog, but at [clears throat] the same time too, >> Landiskog and Nelson have been performing really really well with that. Yeah. >> Lately, so like that that leaves the only option being Nushkin, who >> as we’ve mentioned before >> drives a lot of play, but for himself. So like >> are you are you benefiting him or linemates at all, but what are you getting in return for that? >> Sure. in a in a moving Brinley up and potentially increasing the amount of minutes he can be that be that competitive spark. >> I I float it out there because we’ve seen Brinley move up the lineup here and there when the ABS have been having an off night this year. Olison, not really. We haven’t seen him really like I think for one game he was technically in the top six and then he played 13 minutes or whatever it was so he wasn’t really in the top six. Um just a thought of of maybe a way to separate those guys. I get not wanting to mess with the ABS top six though. They’re they’re really really really good as is. So >> the top line is one of the best lines in the league and over the last I want to say four to six weeks the Brock Nelson line has exploded. >> Yep. >> Brock Nelson himself has poin and Nushkin Nelson Landiskog in particular. Those three look unbelievable together. So, at the moment, I’m not. But when things start to take a turn and guys go through those down spells, that’s the nice part of having an Olafson or a Brinley. They have the skill to move up into your top six that you’re like, “Yeah, we need a guy to move somewhere else for a spark. We’ve got guys that can do it.” Last year, that was the last couple of years. I’d say the last three years, you’re looking at the Kiviras and the Logan Oconor types that have been moving into your top six out of necessity and you’re like, >> “No, thank you.” >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Like Dennis Molgan was in your top six in a game seven >> in a playoff game. >> Like there there have been some times there’ve been some hard times here and this year they’re legitimately Logan Oconor hadn’t played one single game and they have the number one power play in the league. Girl, what? >> Penalty kill. >> Thank you. Penalty kill. >> Power play is almost the worst. So >> penalt [laughter] play is terrible. >> So yeah, like you’re you’re looking at it going, “This is such a good situation to be in. They’ve built a really good forward core.” >> Yep. >> And I think something to note here, too, is very rarely do we see this team end with the lines that it starts with, too. And so match. Yep. >> It’s that’s a testament to just how versatile and how willing Bednar is to move things up. >> Well, and to kind of bring the conversation full circle, when you have a blender type head coach like that, >> it makes a guy like Ross Colton even more valuable because he can play >> literally any line of your lineup, any position, >> center wing, first line, third line, fourth line, second line, whatever. >> Guy can fill in. And and we’ve seen that’s not just Russ Colton, though he deserves the credit for it. Nachushkin has played on your first, second, third line. Land has played on your first, second, third line. You have Brinley’s moveability, you know, whatever you believe his ceiling is or whatever. The ABS wingers are all versatile enough to move up and down the lineup and not just sit in their one spot. I do think that might be the one knock against Olson I have is he feels a little bit pigeonhold at times. >> Yeah. And when Olivesson is is not going with the puck, what else is he doing? >> Yeah. >> And that’s why I think Brinley is slowly taking his job. >> Yep. >> Cuz when Brinley’s if Brinley is not playing his agame, his work rate is still really high >> and he’s still finding ways to >> causing chaos in the neutral zone or back check or whatever. Yeah, >> there’s there’s something positive that’s usually happening with Brinley’s game. Olivson just kind of goes dark. >> Third line guy. That’s fine. But if you have a better option, you have a better option. >> True. Hey, that’s the business. Uh do want to start moving into the trade stuff. We’re going to focus on the forward core in this show, but I wanted to ask first, which spot do you think is more important? We we’ve kind of revisited this question a couple of times from the preseason on. Is it more important for the ABS to go out and get a 3C or a bottom six forward, or is it more important for the ABS to get a left D? Three C’s kind of my priority I think right now. >> So it sounds like it’s betting ours too. So >> I I I would say the defenseman because uh very very quietly the Sams have been awful >> last three or four games. >> Yeah. >> Boy, they get stuck in their own zone and it is not fun. >> It’s not coming out. Yeah, >> it’s a it’s a real problem and there are a lot of like little issues that I I would have with that pairing. We saw it work so well last season that I’m willing to see let them work through this rut. >> I’m not trying to make this I’m not trying to make a deal in the next three weeks, but right now I would say a defenseman. But if you give me a choice, I’m almost always going to say a defenseman because you can’t have too many of them. And >> come playoff time, like I can live with, oh my god, you have your first and second line centers are amazing and your fourth line center is really, really, really good, and your third line center is meh. >> I >> Nathan McKinn’s playing 30 minutes a night anyway. Like >> I will spend those assets to make my defense absolutely as big top as I possibly can. I do think there’s an interesting conversation there. Maybe we’ll do that on the other side of the break. But we do need to shout out our sponsors again. So, let’s hit them up. We’re now just a week away from Christmas and the last minute gift to get is Aura Frames. You can get one the way I did. We got one for my in-laws. They absolutely love it. 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Jump in with Dicks today. Get your gear fast with free curbside pickup at your nearest store or easy shipping from dicks.com. All the sports under the sun. Baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketball, golf, and more. Even tailgating essentials because every season starts at Dicks. Third period of the DNVR Avalanche podcast presented by Bet365. I promise we’ll get to the trade stuff in a little bit, but it’s my show and I can run it however I want. >> The defense, you you mentioned the bad Sams as of late and I think you had a handful of games before the Sams took a dip where the Manson burn pair Burns pairing was struggling >> and it just feels like there’s a little bit of imbalance in the ABS Decor, right? and >> you don’t want to play Gerard and Manson together because we saw they struggled over the last couple of years together to be honest. AJ was just looking up some other numbers that aren’t encouraging. I What how do the ABS balance it? Is it really just they have to go out and get a guy or is there an internal solution? Well, just for just just so you guys can know what I’ve been I looked up how the pairs have done this year, all of them. Just for fun. Um I know the numbers with Ilia Slov and Sam Molinsky were always way better than the eye test and that the bad games they had were god awful, but the best games that they had were like comically insanely outrageously productive, which was weird. But at 5v5 with the Sams on the ice, goals are 109 for the ABS. So, and that’s in 200 minutes. So, it’s not we’re we’re talking bad and it’s relative to the exceptional results that the Avalanche have produced this year. >> Yeah. >> And being like this is fine, looks bad relative to that, right? But the Burns Manson pairing uh has sparkling underlying results and 24-13 goal advantage. >> Pretty good. >> And of the three main pairings that they have, the Manson Burns pairing is the one that has produced the best underlying numbers. Taves and Macar have been solid, nowhere near what they’ve been in the past. And goals are 30 to 14. A lot of that obviously comes with playing with Nathan McKinnon more often than not, but >> the results are the results. They’ve played 33 games and that pairing has given up 14 goals. >> It’s not incredible. >> But you look at you you look at the amount of time that they’ve been on the ice, 460 minutes together, 14 goals against 5v5, like it’s >> against top competition, too, like >> against the best competition that you can find. and like it they’re re they’re not in a bad spot. It’s just that we all can look at it is so blatantly obvious that we can look at the Sam Gerard Sam Molinsky pairing and say when you get into a postseason >> they’re small. >> You know that small >> that pairing that pairing might have a good game. >> It might have two good games but its bad games might cost you. And if you have one of those types of bad games, it might cost you a series. You might have one of those when have one of those moments, >> a brain fart, a big mistake, just an innocent like with Gerard last year where Ranton banks the puck off of his skate and it’s not really anybody’s fault. It’s just like one of those hockey things that happens. >> Like it could just it could be any of that. And you worry about the physicality of it. you worry that they’re too easy to play against and there’s just no way to get around that in the in the in a regular season. I have no issues with the Sams. But when you start talking about a postseason, I get a lot more uncomfortable with it. You’re going to have to go through at some point probably much heavier teams in Dallas and Minnesota. And then if you end up with or I should stay Dallas or Minnesota. And if you if you end up with a guy or end up with a path that includes Vegas, that’s another heavy back end. That’s another heavy forche team. The Sams are are going to be a liability there. You can see this coming. This is all avoidable. >> Yeah. The thing for me too is like you look at the season that a Sam Wolinsky is having and it’s that that’s what makes it even harder for me too because it like it’s it’s the best of his career so far. He’s performing out of his mind. But defensively with a Sam Gerard, I mean you you saw in last game where they start blending and bringing back up the blender. Yep. >> And >> who does Sam Gerard score with on the ice? Give you a hint, it’s not Sam Molinsky. [laughter] And so that’s >> Josh Manson screening the goalie for the record, >> right? And so [laughter] that’s that’s the kind of unfortunate thing for me here too is that is the one okay game you’re getting from Sam Sam Gerard and he directly leads to one of those goals as well. He’s had almost two months >> yep >> to settle into his spot on the roster, try to find something. And I’m not seeing some of the results that I would like. But at the same time, too, in hearing Bedar talk about, you know, roster spots and the way he talks about some players, the trust is there for a guy like Sam Gerard. >> Yeah, trust definitely there. He’s been a longtime betting our guy, but you’re right, Saminsky has outplayed him pretty significantly to this point in the season. >> They’re the same age, which is super weird to think about. [laughter] >> Um, but I just think that we’re, this isn’t even a podcast that has been anti-Sam Gerard for a long time, and we’re just going to slam that button and be like, “Finally, it’s time.” I we’re just looking at how the team has played through 33 games and you’re saying >> if you’re trying to get better somewhere, that might be it. >> Yeah, >> it just might be time for Sam Gerard. Well, >> where Sam Molinsky has been so good and he’s been so productive, one of the most productive point players and the way that your defense is is aligned at this point, like you’ve gotten shocking production out of Manson Burns as a pairing. I just What are you supposed to if you’re if you’re Chris McFarland and you’re sitting in that front office right now? We’re supposed to be talking about forwards. We’ve spent the last however long talking about defenseman. I just think that it’s an obvious spot to look at >> and the conversation is it gets hard to blend, right? Because yeah, Gerard scored that goal with Josh Manson on the ice with him. Awesome. We know what that pairing looks like long term and it feels like it should be good, but as AJ was talking about, that pairing will make the dumb mistake. You know it will. >> It has every single time you put it together in the past. The Malinsky uh Gerard pairing, maybe it’s not a dumb mistake, but it’s just a a level of futility in their own end at times that it’s hard to live with. The Manson Burns pairing as is, has been great, but is also prone to the dumb mistake a little bit. Maybe not dumb in Brent Burns case, but Brent Burns has been caught repeatedly this year in the neutral zone. Whether that’s a bad decision or bad legs, whatever you want to call it, fine. It it feels like you want to maybe have other options that you don’t necessarily trust or maybe it’s I I don’t trust it even if Jared Bednar might. So >> yeah, >> I think for me too the whether or not that trust is there too, I don’t think it would hurt to go out and if you’re if that’s the answer and Sam Gerard like unfortunately his shelf life with the Colorado Avalanche is expired. >> Yeah, that’s could be the business side of it. Yeah, >> they they wouldn’t it wouldn’t hurt to go out and find a bigger defenseman. No, >> because it like it >> I think Dallas comes to mind. the Florida Panthers come to mind where you don’t really see many guys under six foot on those blue lines on the roster. And I I feel like around the league, you sacrifice on the blue line a lot of times for your one under under six foot guy who who’s really really good at what he does. He can provide a lot of offense. The Avalanche right now are riding with two of them. I think the ABS might need a pest on the defensive side. They have >> Josh Manson isn’t enough of that for you. >> Josh Manson’s he he’s the bruiser. He’s not a pest. He’s the guy who was like, I will beat you up. Like I don’t care. Mason Marchman, I will punch you in the face. Who’s the Who’s the AS Lean Bishell? the guy who every shift is getting under your skin being a nuisance because yeah, I really like what Sam Gerard and Sam Molinsky do, but a pest is not on the list of things that they do. >> I can I can tell you this with a 100% confidence. They’ve been trying. They’ve been trying for a while and it’s teams are not looking to move on from very many of those guys. and you’re you’re in a tough spot because this is a very niche thing that you’re trying to add. You’re trying to add specifically a left-handed guy that can play on the left side that brings that kind of physicality. Great. Those guys are pretty common, but you want one that has both the skating and the puck skill that are going to fit into your lineup. Now, they won a Stanley Cup with Jack Johnson, and this is everybody’s favorite example, but go back and look. You look through those numbers. He dragged every single pairing he was on down. >> You’re not trying to go and get that guy. >> Let’s Jack Johnson was a seven. The only reason he ended up in the lineup for that cup run is cuz Sam Gerard got hurt. [laughter] >> Yeah, but I’m saying like that’s a lot of times over the couple of years this has been the counter example of like, well, Jack Johnson wasn’t that guy and look at him. >> Yeah, you’re right. He was the seven, but like he made them worse. They won’t inspire him. I’m sure >> at at best Jack Johnson’s contributions were just don’t screw this up, man. >> Just don’t screw this up. >> And they did they did this last year. They went out and they got Ryan Lingren. It didn’t go well. Lang Ryan Lingren wasn’t very good. >> Yeah, those first five games were fun and then he was terrible. >> First 10. [laughter] >> The first 10. >> I was like, they did it again and then it all went to hell. So you it’s it’s a it’s a hard thing what they’re trying to look for, but you also don’t have a lot of assets. You don’t have a lot of cap space. You have a little bit of breathing room. You’re not like 300k from the from the limit. You have millionish, maybe a little bit more. So there’s some wiggle room, but it’s just a difficult spot to be in because of all the factors that you consider. And you’re not looking for a world beater. This is one reason why I’ve I’ve talked about the the Parker Wither Witherspoon and Mario Ferraro types. These guys can skate. They fit into your identity and they’re mean. Especially Mario Ferraro. He’s mean. Well, I think especially when you look at someone like Ferraro, you’re hoping to find a guy with a little bit of a higher hockey IQ, right? The guy that understands when he needs to make a simple play and not get the Josh Manson experience of him trying to do something absolutely crazy for no reason. >> But you also don’t want a guy that’s so limited like the interest where you’re like, >> well, this is it. He makes that one pass and he is done with the P. Like you want something with a little bit more of a dynam dynamic element and the Avalanche front office highly values that ability. It’s not something that they’re looking to throw in the bin. They highly highly value it. The Lingren acquisition went against all of the all of the front office I don’t know how to put this. It went against what they’ve been about for a long long time and it predictably didn’t work. Yeah. All right. Um, let’s move on to the actual topic of today, which was supposed to be potential 3C targets for the ABS, >> right? 15 minutes. >> Yeah. Well, look, we’re not I don’t want to spoil your whole article. You got to leave something up to the imagination. All right. >> Too true. >> So, lots of options in there. AJ, of that list, who’s your number one? Um, I think that there are two guys for me that stood out above all the others and they have the same problems. Um, both of it’s it’s Phil Deno and it’s Ryan O’Reilly. And the they were just talking about fit on the abs. [laughter] >> Yeah. The the downside of both guys is that they’re both slow as [ __ ] They’re so slow. The pace is a huge problem. The foot speed is bad. The skating isn’t good. They’re both really, really smart. They’re both really good defensively and they do it in different ways. O’Reilly’s incredibly intelligent and he puts himself in the right spots and he’s got the world’s most annoying stick. Great. I’m all about that, right? Like that’s good stuff. Phil Deno plays a much heavier game. You really like that. Deno drives offense more. He just doesn’t finish any of it. He’s got five assists in 30 games. That’s it. And I’m not even cutting out the goals cuz there aren’t any. [laughter] O’Reilly and and you look at you look at Den know he’s playing his way down the lineup in LA. I think a big concern that I have with the with LA’s willingness to move the no is they’re not going to just move them. >> Yeah. >> For fun >> because it’s it’s Anre Kopitar’s last season. They don’t want to just punt on that. That’s a serious consideration. >> So, they need a hockey deal. This is I I mentioned the other day that my ideal might just be some sort of like Sam Gerard for Phil the No package and then the ads go out and they get either Brett Koulak or Parker Witherspoon from the Pence or Mario Ferraro. Those are the three guys I’m going to spend the next three months talking about. So, you guys can just get used to that. >> Okay. >> Those are those are the guys that I want on the on the on the defense. So, those are the two center options. They both win a ton of faceoffs. They’re great defensively. They play hard minutes. They play heavy minutes. Very good. They’re also both signed through next season and are going to both be too expensive for the Avalanche this season. So, they would need some sort of I don’t think it needs to be a lot. It doesn’t need to be 50% retained. >> Um, but a little bit of money needs to needs to be retained. U O’Reilly makes four and a half. Deno I think makes five and a half. If not five and a half it’s a little over five. >> I think it’s five and a half. Yeah. >> So there needs to be a little bit of money but they’re both signed through next season as well. So that’s nice. I like that. Those are probably my favorite options because they are they they’re a very good fit for what the Avalanche need in in in terms of like a good solid reliable defensive third line center that can chip in offense. Like it’s it’s going to be there when it’s there. O’Reilly has the added benefit of he’s really good power play guy. >> Yeah. >> That might sneak onto your top power play unit because he’s he’s such a smart player. He might bully Mech into being like, “You’re not a power play, coach. Knock this off.” And the power play might be functional again. I believe in the power of bullying. Let Roar bully. [laughter] So, that’s those are the two guys that stand out on on top of that list for me. Trade acquisition price, I really don’t know. I I don’t want to get into it just because I don’t know and I don’t want to be like, “Ah, two first round picks or whatever, you know?” Like, I don’t want to get crazy with it. I just truly don’t know. >> Fair. It’s It’s tough. We We talk about this a lot. It in the ABS search for a 2C for for years and years and years. It’s also true of a 3C though, is >> um everyone’s 3C is either a guy playing above his head or below his level, right? No one targets as a 3C. that this is either a guy coming up trying to prove he can be a 2C or it’s a guy playing above his head and is really probably more of a 4C. >> Yeah, Jack Jury. >> Yep. Perfect. Or it’s Ross Colton and he’s not really a center at all. Also an option, I guess. But [laughter] >> PS, one of those one of those guys is on my is in my piece. He’s my dark horse. The >> Is this guy even a center? >> Can we not Can we not do this again? [laughter] I’ve done it enough. I I have him I even wrote in there that about that particular guy uh that this is more of a summer thing than an inseason thing. But you you keep your eyes out. [laughter] >> I don’t the list is too long. Yakov Trenan, >> Parker Kelly, >> Ross Colton. I’m not saying trade for him. I’m just saying the guys that have played center for fakes for the Colorado Avalanche >> for fakes. I mean, Darren Helm and Andrew Cogalano both did it and we were like, “These guys aren’t centers.” >> Yeah. Yeah. Helm was kind of a center at one point in his career, just not a >> guy, [laughter] right? Like early in his career when he was like 26, he was a center. And then the ABS are like, “Oh, you’re 35 years old. Guess what, buddy?” [laughter] >> Yeah, it was weird. It didn’t It didn’t go great and then they got to the playoffs and he hit everything that moved. It was so odd. Bailey, let me take a different angle with you on this one. You’re in the locker room. Obviously, the vibes in there are great. Is there any concern that making a move, especially if it has to be a hockey trade, could harsh the yims of the Colorado Avalanche, or is that are they prepared for that side of being a champion? >> Yes and no. Because in multiple conversations with different guys, that’s been the conversation, right? is as much as you gel in the locker room with a guy, it’s a business, right? Yep. And >> they [clears throat] made a really really good reputation for themselves being able to assimilate all of the guys that they got into the locker room last year and create the locker room that is there today. >> With that said, I I sit there and I look at a at a relationship between a Parker Kelly and a Ross Colton and I’m like, Parker would be >> devastated. Yeah. if Ross Colton were to go anywhere. Um, Victor Olifson’s even kind of found his niche spot um, sitting next to Martin Nutes in the practice room. And I I just there there is that risk. Um, which is why I think in seeing the relationships that they’ve built with each other, >> it it would hurt me >> seeing sure that, you know, ruined. And I can’t imagine what that does for them and being like, all right, well, this guy like maybe he’s not doing as much as we need him to on the ice, but like look at where he’s benefiting us here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Guys like Curtis McDermad were part of the the vibes of the room when it comes to the ABS winning. As as much as I was over it from the beginning, [laughter] >> Curtis McDerm is a Stanley Cup champion. Like [laughter] >> sure they the ABS need to go out and get a 3C6D. He got to be able to play both. Confirmed. [laughter] So yeah, that that’s that’s just my view and take on it is yeah, it it would hurt >> a lot, I think. But maybe like that locker room, >> it’s it’s got good a good bounceback rate, I would say, with with as much as they went through last season to shape the roster that they’re putting out now. So that side of it to consider. Are you still willing to do it for a a Deno or an O’Reilly? >> Not for what it would potentially cost. >> Okay. >> No, I >> No, >> Bailey’s doing nothing at the deadline. Confirmed. Lock in the team. >> I I don’t know. Like it’s I I think I I’m as much as I think a 3C would help, the only thing I would be potentially willing to give up is a Samuel Gerard, who okay, >> I see being, you know, he he’s very talkative and interactive in the locker room, but you’ve got some depth there that could maybe come and save that as well. >> Yep. And so I’m a little more that that would be like the only piece I’m willing to move to potentially make you better at 3C. But then at the same time too, what teams are going to be willing to give up for Sam? >> And and that’s we’re still in December. AJ talked about it earlier. The price of things is going to change come trade deadline day. In some cases, prices are going to go up. In a lot of cases, prices are going to go down, too, though. >> Yeah. And like in the in the case of a guy like Phil Deno, the kings would be moving him at the Nadier of his value. >> Yeah. >> And that’s bad business almost always unless the unless the player is just like I don’t want to do this anymore. Get me out of here. Yeah. And he comes to the rink and he it’s an active detriment to everybody involved where you’re just like, >> well this isn’t working anymore. We got to do something. >> Then then you have to move him, right? But the Kings are just sitting around waiting going, “We need this guy to score five points in six games.” And then we can be like, “See, he’s back. He’s totally fine. He just had a slow start to the year.” And then you move them immediately before it falls apart. >> Like that’s like the you got to play the game a little bit here. And >> the the ABS are in this really fortuitous position that they frankly that they’ve put themselves in. They’ve earned their way to >> for sure. They don’t have to do anything right now. They can wait. >> No rush. Absolutely. >> They can let other teams rise and fall. >> You want to pay the king’s ransom for Quinn Hughes? That’s your problem. Yeah, >> totally. Well, and like a guy like Quinn Hughes, you’re like, the ABS [clears throat] don’t need to do a guy like Quinn Hughes. They don’t. One, they don’t have the assets for that anymore. And two, they just don’t need to >> to do stuff like that. We’re talking about 3C here. >> Yep. Not 1D. [laughter] >> Yeah. Not even the second line center where it was like we were talking about Phil Deno and Ryan O’Reilly as second line centers two years ago, a year ago. >> Yep. >> Now we’re talking about these guys would be overqualified third line centers. Overqualified and a little bit overpaid thirdline centers, but your center depth would rock. >> Mhm. >> But like everybody right now, they made the Minnesota made the Quinn Hughes move because they’re chasing you. >> Yep. >> True. you don’t let them catch up by by by doing things like this where you look at your roster and you’re honest about it and you say this is this is one of our two weaknesses. We’re going to address this. I’ve got a whole list of guys here that that have reasonable that there are good arguments for moving them and from the teams that are trading them and then good arguments from the avalanche side of trying to go and get them back. JT Coner is not on my list. He’s never going to be on my list. >> No, >> I don’t want to say never. I’ll wait till the last year of his deal and then depending on where everybody is in that process, maybe. But right now, absolutely not. I abs fans haven’t paid attention, but that guy’s game has completely >> been horrible in Detroit. Also, Detroit’s first in the Atlantic. They’re not selling. >> No. [laughter] >> Um, okay. Can you guys explain to me what this Eric Howella thing is? >> This is her thing. >> Okay. [laughter] So, couple years ago, there was a picture that came out of Eric Holla on a golf course wearing a bracelet that says, “Canes suck.” >> All right. And I don’t know if it there the lore here was explained that the he made it or a fan made it. I think a fan gave it to him and that’s you know he just kept it on. >> But since Ericala left the Canes it has been a very very strained relationship. There are people keeping track of >> like Ericala has not won a game in their building in a while. Like it it’s a whole thing there. And so when AJ published his piece, somebody reached out and was like, “You didn’t clear it with Bailey that you put Ericala on this list.” Because I mean, obviously coming from Carolina, like it’s it’s a whole thing that I was in. And I’m like, you know, yeah, Ericala might be a a a pest, but like if we’re sitting there talking about guys that the ABS could use, imagine that with a Ross Colton. all >> that would be so much fun. Like that’s I and [laughter] like as much as I like I I’ve I’ve tried to like he’s a really nice guy from what what I’ve heard and that that’s that’s just like the whole whole lore of it all and there there’s the whole joke of like an ABS Canes final which I don’t want to happen. I have too much family that would make that miserable. >> Now Eric Hell is scoring the Stanley Cup winning goal for the ABS against the [laughter] Canes. So >> this is where this is headed. >> Yeah. So that that’s that’s like the whole invisible string of it all. Like if he can’t go back to the Canes because that relationship was severed very easily. Is he going to come to the ABS now that I’m out here? And I’m like I that’d be fun. That’d be fun. >> Look, he played 41 games there five years ago. >> That’s what I’m saying though is like they are hold they are grasping at straws here AJ. I think it’s >> I love Kane’s fans. Carolina is one of my favorite teams to watch when I’m not watching the Avalanche. Y’all got to get over this. [laughter] >> I I mean, are are they not over it? Don’t they hate Mo now? He’s a public enemy number one there. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> I mean, I guess that’s our bond. >> I don’t know. It’s just it’s a funny little invisible string moment for me. But go out and they like >> that would be so getting an Erica. For the record, Eric Howa used to be a wonderful skater. He has slowed down a lot. He’s 34 years old. He’s on an expiring deal. He’s a third he’s a third line guy. He hits stuff and he wins faceoffs. That’s the profile that we’re looking for. >> Yep. >> For a guy for the Avalanche. It’s It’s that exactly. He He hits some stuff, he wins faceoffs, he plays on a PK, he can chip in points, he’s functional with a puck. >> Mhm. >> That’s it. Pick pick whichever one of these guys that you like. There are honestly 30 of them in the league that I could have I could have put in that piece. It was already almost 3k words. I just needed to slow it down. >> So >> none of the other ones wear a cane suck bracelet. So >> yeah. [laughter] Also, I like I like Eric Howella. If we’re talking about his skating being a problem, we cannot have the Phil Den Ryan O’Reilly conversation. >> Yeah. >> I was going to say I feel like the ABS are already dealing with some of that a little bit too. like there there’s not I don’t know like that’s not one of the things you’re looking to fix and I feel like you can deal with that for what you’re getting out of some of those guys. >> Yeah. >> Plus again it’d be fun. >> I whatever they do is going to be fun. I I’m confident in that this season. This team is really really fun. We do need to wrap up today’s show though. So we are going to call it there. We appreciate everyone hanging out. It’s game day again tomorrow. So join us pregame watch along postgame for that one. uh last couple of games before the holiday break here. So, can the ABS get to 60 points? >> 60 points. >> We’ll see. We appreciate y’all. This has been the DMV Avalanche podcast presented by Bet 365. [music]

The Avalanche bottom-six continues to be shuffled around as they look for a permanent 3C solution and manage injuries. How will the Avalanche adjust their lineup to best fit the team and who could they target to add to the forward core?

Intro – 0:00
Jack Drury 3C dead? – 2:45
Could the Avs settle for Colton? – 9:55
Need a winger? – 17:39
Top six guy on the third line? – 23:50
3C OR LHD? – 28:50
Imbalance on the D core? – 32:45
AJ’s Picks for 3C – 45:00
Don’t yuck the teams yum – 50:50
Drama time – 57:02

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6 comments
  1. Still, I'm trying to figure out how they are winning this much. The roster isn't much different. Maybe they've all gelled differently this year. I feel they will need a big pickup, especially as they'll be facing teams like Dal, Edm, Min, LV who will be doing what they can to elevate their team to compete with the Avs.

  2. Bad take on Girard. You guys want so much for Girard to be traded but what would happen if Malinski gets injured? We go in the playoffs with a third unproven pairing cuz his "shelf life" is over? C'mon leave him the F alone, SG was never going to be the next Bobby Orr, but he's reliable. Oh and by the way, this is for the so-called "fanbase", enough of the bs ROR or Sherwood, we need them back, lol. ROR shat on the AVS when we needed him the most and Sherwood was a failure during his time with the team. Screw them both. Danault isn't the solution either, lol. What a downgrade. I think your toque is too tight.

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