6 Steps That Sharks Must Take To Return to Respectability
Oi, welcome to the San Jose Hockey Now podcast. I’m Shang Tang, editor and chief of San Jose Hockey Now. I am live from London, not London, Ontario, but London, England. Anyway, find me on Twitter, Shang_pang, on Blue Sky, Shangpang. Also, find us on Instagram, San Jose Hockey Now, and of course, find my work at MCC Sharks. How’s everyone? Greg Jawani again. Happy to be here. co-host of San Jose Hockey now and find me at San Jose Ice. Uh I’m Rinkr Rraten all the time still. So I’ll be over there. Uh right now I’m in northern Minnesota on vacation at the family cabin and it’s beautiful out here as you guys can see. And Shangers, how’s uh how’s London? It’s going great. I did want to mention too Keegan is not here today. He is working but he will be back with us next week. Actually just a little tease. We have a very very very very very how many more times can I say very Zubar? Very very very very exciting episode planned uh next week. No exaggeration. Zubar knows what’s going on and he knows that it is very very very very very very exciting. But anyway, we’re going to not uh we’ll talk about that more a little bit later. But before we do, uh let’s talk a little bit about well let’s talk about London a little bit. Um I’ve been walking a lot. I’ve been checking out all the sites. My first time here. I am a big literary guy, which some of you guys know. And so I’ve been going to all the all the I’m going to John Keats’s house, Charles Dickens house. One of the things I love about London is you walk around and you just look on Google Maps and you’re like, “Oh, I’m 10 minutes away from William Blake, very famous poet back then, his his burial spot. Oh, I’m 20 minutes away from where Percy Bliss Shelley lived.” And just little things like that about about England, about London are very very cool that just you just walk around anywhere. Actually, the street that I’m staying on, I’m in Cam Camden. Apparently, Charles Dickens, he lived here when he was a kid, the same street that I’m on right now. I don’t know what house he lives. I gota look that up later. But anyway, so I am very, very excited about London. I’m very, very excited about this episode. And I’m very, very, very excited about our very next episode. Yeah, I love it. Are you uh have you been feeling inspired? For those who don’t know, Shang, a writer himself, obviously more than just a beatw writer for the Sharks. Any poetry? you write any poetry out there? No, I haven’t written any any poetry out here, but it has been very um sobering. Uh sobering maybe is not the right word, but I when I was younger coming to England, coming to London, it’s my first time here was a dream. And so to visit all these kind of the poets, their houses where they worked that really interested me and just to to be there is it’s almost almost religious for me. Actually speaking of I also went to Westminster Abbey and there’s a poet’s corner there and that’s where a lot of poets are buried and a lot of them are honored writers not just poets Shakespeare Jane Austin and the list goes on just the the the greats of of English literature and so when I was younger I thought that hey maybe I would be one of those one of those people maybe I have a bust in Westminster Abbey one day but no instead I’m here talking about Mlin celebr well I harness some of that deeprooted sharks pain and write us a good poem while you’re out there. That’s a good call. Yes, I I will do that one day. Yeah, exactly. All right. Awesome. Awesome. Well, um you know, we got a we got a great show today. Um and actually before I jump into that, I got to recommend a place. Have you been to Ain’t Nothing But, you got to look that up. Great blues bar in London. One of my favorites. Ain’t Nothing But obviously the blues, but check that out. Ah. Oh, hey. I actually went to a fun one last night, too. Blues Kitchen in Camden. So, great music. They were They’re doing kind of like old like old school combined with uh like bluesy versions of like newer songs um like Empire State of Mine, but also bluesy versions of classics like The Doors Light My Fire. So, that’s kind of more up my my alley. So, I really had a had a good time there last night. But anyway, before though we get to our show and stop talking about our vacations here, vacations only show like you said earlier, let’s talk about bring hockey back. So bring hockey back. Bring hockey back’s our sponsor. Bring hockey back.net. We love them as a sponsor. Anyway, you can get great t-shirts. They have Mac on sale. They have Joe Thornton t-shirts. They’ve got custom hockey jerseys there, too. Bring hockeyback.net. Also, coupon code San Jose hockey now. Get 15% off. So, anyway, bring hockey back. Bring hockeyback.net. Go there right now. Still waiting for my shirt. Bring hockey back. Come on. I’m I’m a coast now. Get me on. Get me a shirt. All right. Well, we got an awesome show today. Um, uh, you know, there’s a couple things, Shane. You know, something that you and I talk a lot about, um, is obviously, you know, what steps do the Sharks really need to take to get back in the playoffs? and and now obviously we’re not thinking Stanley Cup yet, just that next step of getting into the postseason. Yeah. And you know, when we’re talking about that a lot, you know, there’s a lot of details of what you got to do and and and it’s things that we discuss and we find really interesting in the current state of the Sharks. you know, really looking back into recent cup winners like the 2012, 2014 Kings or the 2010, 13 and 15 Blackhawks and even recent cup winners like the Panthers and Lightnings who did it a little differently in the sense that they were a lot more like the Thornton era Sharks that were really close but, you know, added a couple of key ingredients to get them over the top. So, uh, really interesting topic and we have a a great guest as well, uh, that’s gonna speak to that topic today. Uh, so Shay, you want to tell us a little bit about our guest? Well, I just want to reemphasize that this is really, really important. I think a lot of conversations about the Sharks, it’s it’s easy. The Sharks have been so bad so long that you want to imagine the day that the Sharks win a Stanley Cup. You thinking five steps ahead, but we’re talking about the next step. We’re not talking necessarily about five steps ahead here. How can the trucks just get back to respectability? Like legitimate respectability and not just being number one on prospect pools and all that kind of stuff, right? But how to be a good team again. Maybe not a great team yet, but a good team first. And I think that’s a really really important kind of underdisussed uh topic. And so that’s why we’re gonna have Jesse on here. And Jesse here to talk about the Kings. The Kings did it like the Sharks are trying to do. The Kings had a long rebuild from 2006 to 2010 they missed the playoffs and in that time they drafted kind of the cornerstone players Kopitar Dowy and Quick and anyway so 2010 is the first time the Kings make the playoffs and they get bounced in the first round twice and of course Sharks fans remember 2011 in the playoffs when the Sharks beat the Kings in the first round. They I think that’s a a game I don’t remember which game but they came back from a four- zero deficit. You have Joe Joe Thornton swimming on the ice, right? Maybe the the trademark or the cornerstone signature Joe Thornton moment in uh in in Teal there. So anyway, that step is was really important. The Kings didn’t go from being out of the playoffs to winning the Stanley Cup in 2012. That in between stuff matters matters quite a bit. And so how did the Sharks again just get to that next step? And anyway, the reason why we’re having Jesse on, Jesse is a friend of mine. Jesse has been a Kings fan since the mid 80s. You probably have heard of Jesse, especially if you were really into the King Sharks rivalry back when it mattered. And Jesse has hosted all the Kings Men podcast since 2012. So, he’s I think a great guy to kind of review talk about about this topic. Awesome. All right. Well, before we get to Jesse, let’s touch up on a couple of the Sharks news and notes. Uh so Shane, what can you tell us about uh the New Deal? Sharks staying in town till 201. Yeah, and that’s arguably arguably the biggest news of of anything this whole summer. The Sharks basically signed a free agent deal to to stay in San Jose for the next 25 till 20. That’s actually bigger than William Aklland’s three-year contract or discussions of Mlin. I made a mistake last week. Mini can sign an eight-year contract. So, back on Cellrreeni’s extension coming up. So, arguably the Sharks just staying here that that matters the most. But anyway, great news for Sharks fans. We’re going to see how it all kind of shakes out in terms of where the new arena is when the Sharks play that new arena because part of the deal is besides the Sharks staying in San Jose till 2051, they are also going to the city of San Jose and the Sharks are going to share the cost. most of it will be the city, but uh they’re going to share the cost of renovating SAP center to get it up to quote unquote code. And so anyway, so they’re going to do that over the next decade or so. So I’m interested to see how the renovations will look, but I’m more interested in the new arena and what that’s going to be like and the new arena district. So anyway, stay tuned. I think a lot of details for this. Obviously, they just kind of agreed or they I’m sorry, city city council voted for this and I think that the specifics of it and how it’s going to play out, we’re still not sure. Um, one of the interesting things is that the city and the Sharks have to agree on a new arena site district by September 2027. What does that mean for SAP Center? Where is this new arena district going to be? Who knows? But it’s all kind of okay. We’re going to have a lot of Sharks news in the next couple years. a lot of arena news. Yeah, absolutely. I think two things that were kind of interesting about the deal too was uh I heard a quote by Jonathan Becker talking about how, you know, one of the concerns of anytime these these big budget arenas in any city. You know, obviously the city is always uh wondering what’s going to happen, where’s that money coming from? Taxpayers are really reluctant to pay for entertainment even if it is bringing profit back to the city. But I thought it was interesting that Jonathan said that, you know, Hasso, I guess, greenlighted like, hey, if your concern is the budget of the city, we can make that go away. And so I thought that was kind of neat. And also just in terms of the fan experience, um, you know, um, the mayor is talking a little bit about how he, you know, he wanted things to be a little bit more integrated. something Shangu and I have talked about with, you know, really fun fan experiences in cities like Nashville where, you know, everything’s right there and outside and and San Jose SAP being a little further away. So, they really talked about being able to do that, even like an open carry policy, so you know, you can have your drink and just walk up to the arena outside. So, I think lots of exciting things to come and great news all around. Um, so yeah, let’s talk about the other uh little bit of news or no news actually uh with Michael Misa. Uh, what have you been hearing about Michael Misa and him not signing his his his ELC? Okay. Well, I just took a drink there, but it was not beer. So, I know I’m in England, but anyway. So, with Michael Misa, I’m still the belief that he’s going to sign his ELC. I have a theory about this, which I will share because it’s going to be possibly relevant in in a couple days here. But, okay, actually, I’ll go with the theory first. My theory is that the reason why it’s taken so long is because the sharks are go. This is just me educated guess. So, but I will say though that I have heard from um chiefly from uh Marco Diamo uh who writes for uh he used to write for Montreal Hockey now. Right now he is at rg.com and anyway yes uh RG media rg.com. So anyway, Marco has been telling me since June that he’s heard that the Sharks are obviously going to move price and connecting the the dots that that the sharks make a lot of sense. And I agree with Marco. Granted, we’re still this is more in the the educated guess phase for me. I haven’t been able to like hammer it down or I would have written it about it. But uh because though it’s going to be very relevant. Um let’s see. It is Sorry, my times are mixed up here. So it’s August 31st, 2:00 p.m. Pacific right now. So tomorrow, Carrie Bryce is due a a bonus and Canadians are going to pay that out. And then Carrie Price still, even though the Canadians have paid out this bonus, which I believe, I don’t know if you can look this up, I think it’s like a $5 million bonus cash. It’s a very very significant bonus. So that’s why Price’s contract hasn’t moved yet. But Price has one year left on his deal. It is 10 million AEV, right? Is that right? Are you Yeah. Yeah. Look it up. So he’s owed 5.5 million signing bonus on September 1st. Yeah. Okay. And what’s his AAV? Uh 10.5. Okay. So So the Canadians are closer a lot closer to contending than the Sharks. So, it makes a lot of sense for the Sharks to take on this deal. But here’s a problem though, and this is going to be related to Michael Misa. So, the Sharks are currently at 49 of 50 contracts. That includes Logan Couture. That does not include Sam Dickinson or Leo Senuelius right now. They’re not part of the 41 of 50 because their contracts number one, they can slide, but they also they can they they can slide and they can go back to I think the role is junior or Europe. So basically what happens is I think everyone assumes that Dickinson is going to start the season with the Shark. So that contract is going to be one of those 50. Well, well the Indian we know though is going back to Sweden. So that contract will slide and he’s going back to Europe. So So that contract will not be part of the 50. So anyway, right now for all intents and purposes and I’ve spoken with Puckedia Hart Lavine. So he’s the man. He is the he’s the catman. So I’m in England. Tax man. Catman. Get it? Get it. He’s a catman. So anyway, so I I verified all these details with him just just just checking on things. So for all intents and purposes, the Sharks are full up on contracts right now because they’re assuming Dickinson is 50 and 50. So at the moment, they can’t they can’t sign I mean, yeah, they I don’t I don’t know if you can be over contracts in offseason or not. I don’t know about that part of it, but I know that when a season if the season started tomorrow and Dickson’s on a team that the Sharks cannot have cannot have Misa on on their team because that would be 51 contracts, right? Okay. So, how does this Carrie Price thing work? So, Montreal right now they have plenty of space for contracts. I think right now according to Pia they’re at 43 of 50. Um I don’t know if that’s their exact total in terms of just like all intents and purposes, right? Obviously the Sharks on Puck Pediius is 49 to 50, but we have a Sam Dickson contract that is that is until until they send them back to juniors needs to be needs to be accounted for. So anyway, so how does Carrie Price work into it? Well, I have this again this is just a theory, but the Sharks have two contracts I look at that are very very clear that these are prospects that have unfortunately just run out of time. Whether it be because of injuries like Ganon Lorac injuries or Ardam Gurv who just hasn’t developed quite as the player that the Sharks were hoping when they gave him when they gave him a contract in ELC. So Gurv has had he’s had shoulder injury, he’s had injuries too, but also too just last year in the ECL he’s being used as a forward. So this is not he and he was drafted as a defenseman. So this is a guy who’s not going necessarily in a path that you want as a prospect. So doesn’t make sense for the Sharks and this is just again speculation right but my speculation let me let me add but I have heard from besides Marco another reporter I think I can say his name Nicholas Clutier Montreal who’s saying that he’s he’s hearing a lot of vibes with the Sharks and just picking up Price’s contracts. So does this deal make sense to you then Zubara that the Sharks take on Price’s contract. Sharks have plenty plenty of cap space. They part with two contracts in Gurv and Lorac guys that they won’t have a future with Montreal either. Just Montreal is just taking on the contracts to give the Sharks a little bit of space there. The Sharks also signed Misa in in in that. So Misa would become their 50th contract if you do the math there. um it in effect would be their 50th contract and Montreal might toss in maybe a fourth round pick. I think they have an extra fourth round pick next year. That’s what Marco was telling me. So, um so does that does does that kind of deal make sense to you? Yeah, I can see it. I I I like your theory. I can definitely see it. Um I would like a little bit more return because it’s a significant cap cap hit. I mean, it’s not a small amount. Um uh and uh I would like to see some comps for, you know, inheriting that much cap relative to what you get, but I’d like higher than a fourth round. That’s for sure. Well, these days though, the cap hit doesn’t matter. I’m sorry. Um cap dumps, you don’t get as much as you used to be able to because it’s not a flat cap anymore. Other teams might be able to to fit this in for for a price. So, it’s just not the same market that that it was before. And also too, don’t underestimate the value of getting rid of contracts here. There is a value to that, that the Sharks are alleviating contracts that they have zero need for so they can bring in a contract that they want in Michael Misa. I wanted to add to that I’ve heard that I think about a month ago or so I said on the podcast that I had heard from a source that Mis had no interest in NCAA and over the last couple weeks I kind of checked on that and this source who I trust and is very tapped into the college scene has told me that he has not heard of any schools taking visits from Misa. Now I don’t know if that’s that may I don’t know if that’s that’s normal or not. I don’t know much about the NCAA hockey, the nil uh recruiting process these days, but it seems to signal though still though that my source was correct originally that there just isn’t that interest from Misa in the NCAA path that he wants to go to the NHL. He wants to try as he has said as Mike indicated from the beginning that the Sharks are going to give him every best opportunity to make the NHL out of camp. And look, even small things, right, like Michael Misa at a Giants game a couple days ago with Tyler Tofoley. Little things like that, they kind of signal that that’s the direction. And so this is my sort of my theory. I think JD had something similar on it a couple days ago, but I will say that like I didn’t look I didn’t take this from JD. I swear I I thought about this a week ago. We just haven’t recorded it in in a while. So let’s say with JD and I great minds think alike. But in this case though that I I do think that the the contracts and Gurv and Lorac make the most sense to to to to get rid of and that then that kind of alleviates the the space for you. And in terms of like you asked about the return, I just think the market is low. Maybe it’s a third round pick. Maybe that that feels a little better than or that does feel better than the fourth. But what I’m saying is if you’re expecting to get like a first round pick out of this or whatever, those days I think are done. So you’re not going to get that. But if you get anything for it, it’s a contract that the Sharks they can they can stomach easily and he Carrie Price is gonna be out out the door or it’s contract. It’s only a one-year thing. So, it’s really just found money for for the Sharks here that whatever pick they get from the Canadians in in this hypothetical deal. So, anyway, it is August 31st at 2 PM. And so, let’s see. Let’s see. Tomorrow, September 1st. It is Labor Day September 1st. So, I don’t know if the that’s the news that sharks will drop tomorrow during Labor Day. I hope not. I’m planning to go to the National Gallery tomorrow. Um maybe it’s the next day, September 2nd, when I’ll be flying back uh from London to SFO. But we’ll see. But I would think though that this the news is going to kind of come fast and furious here though that it’s going to just come very quickly if if it all happens as I have am envisioning price trade Misa contract get Misa over to the rookie showcase in Washington DC that’s the upper deck thing that they do every year that’s celebrating in Smith and I think Muk Madulan were a part of last year obviously September 12th that’s the start of rookie faceoff that really is the drop dead drop deadad date that you If Misa is going to be here, he’s got to be there for that and he’s got to be at rookie face off. But again, if Misa is already here taking in the Giants, it’s again, that’s one of those things that’s that says Michael Misa is isn’t out there. You don’t see pictures of Michael Misa at Ann Arbor checking out the campus. So, exactly. I guess also, you know, just to add to that too, uh, going back to the return for a potential cap dump from the Canadians on prices, bonus, and contract. I think what’s interesting there too is like how desperate are the Canadians? Um, and uh, it looks like they’re they’re over cap uh, by almost 6 million. So, um, pretty desperate as well. So, hopefully I don’t know how desperate they are because I just feel like the market there’s teams that can take that on though, that that AA and just not think about it. So yeah, that’s fair. Well, great. No, thanks. Lots of great stuff there. So, all right. Well, that wraps up most of the news and notes for the week. Um, let’s uh let’s uh bring in our guest uh uh Jesse Cohen. So, Jesse Cohen, obviously Shane had mentioned a friend of his. Um and uh shall we? Well, we’re still waiting for Jesse. We’re doing this radio style. So, I just I just sent Jesse the the link there. Um Jesse’s been kind enough. He’s been patient waiting waiting for waiting for us to to to send him send him the link. So anyway though, before we we get Jesse on though. So um what what what what do you think of uh Misa in terms of just do you think that he takes the center job from Will Smith by the end of the season? Because I think he does actually. Yeah. Yeah. I think I brought that up in the last pod too. I I I think he projects better as a center as well. I think he I think he’s he’s just seems more responsible defensively and and quicker um uh to you know to to to get out of the transition out of our zone. You know, he’s a little bit bigger uh in terms of in terms of height and and I think a little bit more physically built than Will was last year and uh and just a little bit more defensively aware um naturally. Uh you know, he really shined as center. So, I think uh I think he steals it. That’s a prediction I think I made last week, too. And and I’m sticking with it. And I think he’s uh two seed by the end of by the end of the season if he gets the same Will Smith treatment. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, um we’ll we’ll see about that. But anyway, I want to introduce our our guest right now, Jesse. Jesse Cohen Zubar. Actually, can you can you can you take it here? Absolutely. Jesse Cohen. uh you know find him on x.comkingsmenodcast. Uh he’s been host of all the Kingsmen uh a Kings podcast since 2012 and as we mentioned earlier been a Kings fan since the mid 80s. So you know here to speak as an expert on all the ups and downs. And on a personal note you know uh Jesse’s been fighting cancer over the last year and just went through his last round of chemo. So you know he’s feeling great and really happy for his health and hoping for a clean bill of health in his uh in his future as well. So, let’s welcome Jesse. Hey guys. Hello, Jesse. How’s it going? Good. How are you? Very good. Well, Jesse, thanks for coming on last minute here. I did want to add with with Jesse here that Jesse and I, we’ve been friends since well, we’ve known each other since like basically when I was covering the Kings. So, going back to like 2014 15. And Sharks fans, you might know Jesse from All the Kings Men podcast, but as a blogger back then when I didn’t know anybody, Jesse was really nice to me. And also too, I it’s really when I think about back then, like 10 years ago, like Jesse was a guy that I wanted to share my work because he had a big following already with his All the Kings Men podcast. Guys, like Sharks fans, you guys might remember or we have any Kings listeners, old school Kings fans. I know a couple couple of you guys still I think follow me on Twitter and obviously all you guys follow Jesse on Twitter. But anyway though, he was a guy that wanted to be sharing my work. Him and John Rosen, Kings Insider, Royal Half, if you guys remember those guys. And anyway, all all that kind of stuff. So Jesse, it’s just so great to have you on. sort of a little full circle for me to have you on because well now I’m here covering covering the Sharks and you’re still there doing a great job covering the Kings. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Chang and uh hello Zubar. Hey, nice to meet you. You too. Really excited for today’s discussion and you know picking your brain about how the sharks uh you know get out of the seller floor. So um it’s not easy. Exactly. Exactly. So, we’ve highlighted a couple of, you know, five little bullet points that we wanted to get into today. And let’s just start at the top of that. Um, you know, uh, you have to learn how to play defense essentially if you want. That’s that’s number one. And so, let me let me give you guys some background to this and then Jesse can kind of fill fill in some of the Kings perspective, too. So, okay. So, the Sharks obviously are an awful defensive team. So, the Sharks, let’s see. I They gave up 326 goals in 2023 24. They gave up 310 last year. They’re both last place. And so, how does this relate to the Kings? Well, the Kings during their rebuild from 2006 to 2008. The Kings were they were young and skilled. They had players like Andre Kopitar, Alexander Frolaf, Michael Cameilleri, Patrick O Sullivan, players like that. But they struggled to play coherent hockey. That’s a nice way of putting it. Coherent hockey under Mark Crawford. They were a last play almost a last place team both of those years. And anyway, in 200708, the last year under Mark Crawford, they gave up 263 goals. Not as bad as the Sharks, but pretty bad. And that was 28th in the league that year. 28th of 30s. So anyway, learn to play defense, Sharks. So enter Terry. Coach Terry Murray in 200809. He replaced Mark Crawford. And this is some this is from an LA kings.com article, but basically that Murray during training camp in 2008. He literally he literally modeled defense for the team by painting five circles in the shape of a home plate on the practice ice. And this is a quote from Terry Murray. We focus on the defensive end. What I call home plate. That’s what Terry Murray said during training camp. This is the mindset of what players have to have. Taking care of home plane and eliminating some of those grade one scoring chances is a priority and that was the focus today. And so those dots that you drew on the ice, those dots that again going back to Terry Murray, those dots are a reference point. When the puck is coming into your defensive zone, it is what I call home plate positioning. The prime scoring area is right there in front of the net below the hash marks. That is where we have to be defending. And so for the Kings, what happened the first year under Terry Murray? They had a 37 goals against improvement, gave up just 226, and jumped from 28th in the league to 11th in the league in defense. And they still weren’t close to the playoffs, but they made it the next year. And so a part of it, big part of it obviously is Terry Murray helping to teach the young kids how to play defense. Another part of it obviously too is the players that you bring in. So they traded for Matt Green, Jared Stole, just solid all-around players. They signed Rob Scaderi. Rob Scaderi is virtue of the Kings. He had zero goals and 11 assists. He wasn’t there for his offense, but he just was strong defensively. And so going back to the Sharks here, the question is, can Ryan Warski teach the Sharks to defend like Terry Murray did with the Kings? So anyway, let me give it to Jesse right here. his thoughts on this. Uh you left out two names, uh Shang. Um Willie Mitchell. Yep. And Jonathan Quick. And you know, you don’t need an all-star goalender to be good defensively, but it sure helps. Um, and you know, I’ve said this time and time again, one of the things that I was not aware of before the trade of Jack Johnson for Jeff Carter in 2012 was the concept of Corsy and the concept of possession. And so, you know, I said only two names. I’m going to throw out some more names. Apologies. Um, they also went ahead and got Justin Williams. Sure. And at the time they got Justin Williams or maybe the year after um I remember reading somewhere that he and Pavle Datsuk were the two leading um possession players in the National Hockey League for the five seasons prior to that. So even if you weren’t necessarily focused on defense, focusing on possession in the offensive zone prevents the opponent from breaking out. And we see it now with the GS currently. Well, I guess I guess they don’t have Arvdson anymore, but in previous iterations of this team, the line of Deno, Arvdson, and Moore were so aggressive on the forche and their sticks were so active in turning the puck over when the other team was trying to break out of their own zone that what should have been maybe a 10 or 15 second stretch in the offensive zone might turn into a line change with possession and hem your opponent back in their zone. So, I mean, it’s it’s more than just one or two players. it, you know, you mentioned Terry Murray laying out, you know, the the circles on the ice. It’s an organizational focus and it it has to come up and down the lineup. Right. Right. And for the Sharks here, so they signed Demetri Orlock. They claimed Nicki off of waiverss. So, it’s maybe a little bit of a long shot because those players are a little older than Scaderi and Willie Mitchell were when they joined the Kings, but maybe those guys can kind of provide that veteran def defense first presence like Scaderi and Willie Mitchell would do for the Kings. So hopefully well if if I may um I’m not intimately familiar with the Sharks roster, but the one thing that I believe in more than just uh the individual talents of the component players on a roster um is that timing plays a huge role in in climbing out of the basement into the competitive window. And so the Sharks have, you know, you’ve got the forwards, right? You’ve got um you know, Celabbrini, who I think is incredible. um you’ve got Will Smith, you’ve got, you know, Ecklund, you’ve got these young players, and you have um Ascarov in net, but you’ve got to sort of get everything everything has to build to an apex. And then and then there’s a whole other conversation to be had about how do you maintain that competitiveness because as guys get older if they’re in support roles they want more money or they want you know to be promoted out of those support roles your your veterans that are supporting you know age out or get injured. I mean, it’s tough to maintain um competitiveness, but but you have to sort of time everything just right, like you said about Orlov, and I’m sorry, I’m blanking on the other name you mentioned, Nicki. Nick Ley, right? can’t bring in two defensemen that are in their mid to late 30s to play with a bunch of 18-year-old forwards and expect that by the time those 18-year-old forwards are ready to be competitive you know season in season out in a way to make deep runs in the playoffs that those guys aren’t going to be retired or you know or too old to really hang with them. I mean that was the sort of that was the brilliance of bringing in Mitchell Williams Scuddary Carter Richards you know they brought in a a host of they being the Kings brought in a host of guys that were all roughly the same age late 20ish right yeah to play the support roles to your Brown Kopitar Dowy Voqu etc and so you had you know multiple layers of of talented players up and down the lineup. Um, you know, unfortunately Willie Mitchell got hurt, Slavo got deported, Mike Richards fell off a cliff, and then Well, so and I he seems fine, so I don’t want to give credit to any rumors, but I mean, but you know, the Kings tried but I mean, Mike Richards was sent down to the AHL multiple times before the Kings tried to terminate his contract and and got caught doing that. Um, so they, so, so what really happened to the Kings is they lost an entire tier of support players. Um, you know, the names at the top and even at the bottom, I suppose, kind of stayed the same, right? Kobitar didn’t go anywhere. Brown didn’t go anywhere. Martinez stuck around. Dowy, Quick, Carter, right? A lot of these names, but they lost this entire, you know, middle class of talent and ro and and um contract status players. And and when I look at the Sharks, that’s what’s missing, right? I see the talent, the young talent, but I don’t see a lot of solid support. And you know, Ascarov is great and all, but even the best goalender we’ve seen, you know, throughout the league, if he’s if nobody’s playing defense for him, right, you’re going to get lit up eventually. So, the Sharks have a good a good young core to build around, but it’s going to require building. Yeah. What kind of what kind of terms was uh were they handing out to a lot of those like uh younger veterans that they brought on? Um well, so the one benefit that the Kings had, sorry to cut you off, um but I this is a topic I’m obsessed with and I don’t think Kings fans give it its due attention. One of the benefits the Kings had was that they were they had built a core of young players right at the moment that the 2004 2005 lockout happened. And so coming out of that lockout there was the salary cap introduced for the first time but they didn’t correct for the loopholes that would inevitably be found. So they were able to add Richards and Carter at cap circumventing deals that would not that would be disallowed in 2013. So, in between their two cup runs, the league came in and said, “No, you’re not allowed to sign guys to 12-year deals to bring down the the annual cap hit.” Without that historical oddity, there’s no chance the Kings have Kopitar as a first line center, Richards as a second line center, and then also, oh, by the way, Jeff Carter just hanging out on the wings waiting to replace Mike Richards. Um, so that’s so I mean the league makes it has made it harder over the years to to remain competitive for a long time and I don’t think they intended to do it but I think the one of the side effects of that is it’s probably harder to climb out of the basement. Um, you know, the kings were able to do it because they already had Kobitar and Dowy still in place when they added, you know, the Kings sort of just ran the same playbook but in reverse, right? The Kings had Kopitar and Dowy and Brown and then they went and added younger players in that midle mid-level contract status. Deno and Arvdson and Edler and then over the years Fiala and yeah, Moore and other players like that. But now the Kings are sort of facing a different problem of like, well, okay, once your high-profile, high cost players age out, how do you replace them? You know, if you replace them. So, so anyway, this was getting back to the Sharks. Sorry, I could talk about the Kings forever, but you guys probably talk about the Sharks. So, I mean, you know, Mlin Cabbrini is what, entering his second year of his entry level contract. Mhm. So, okay, you’ve got two more years of Celabbrini at cost control and then I’m assuming like bridge bridge contracts may or may not be a thing of the past, right? Because of the we don’t know what the new CA CBA is going to do to contract negotiations and how it’s all going to work out. But let’s say at the end of his ELC, Mlin Celibbrini signs a seven-year deal at 10 million plus. Well, okay, that you’ve just, you know, the window that used to be available to franchises where their young players, young talented players weren’t gobbling up all of their cap space so that they could surround them with with other talent. You know, it just becomes a lot harder. You’re going to have to find um you know, midlevel players who overachieve or hope that somebody like Will Smith, I don’t know, I always thought Will Smith was a winger, but he’s listed as a center. What does he play usually? Well, he’s He he was drafted as a center, but they moved him to wing in the second month of the season, and he stayed on wing the rest of the year, and that’s where he had his most success. So, is Will Smith a center or winker? Actually, I just came on. So, it is indeed TBD. All right. Well, then you’ve got to hope that I don’t know, somebody like Tyandria or or somebody like that develops into that kind of 2C or 3C. No. Well, they had Michael Misa for that. So, Oh, well, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They can sit this one out. Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, that’s the trick. That’s the trick, like I said, is mastering the timing and also, you know, and you mean you can look at a team like Colorado, right? They lucked into getting an opportunity to add Cadri at the end of his contract status that wasn’t paying him a ton, but now he makes too much to be helpful to anybody but a team where he’s, you know, one of the big names. And then you have the problem of, well, is Nasim Cadri good enough to actually be the big name and the big earner? So, yeah, it’s tough. You know, it’s tough. And I know a lot of fans when people like me start talking about this kind of stuff, their eyes roll back in their heads and they go, “I don’t care about the cap and I don’t care about all this stuff. Why can’t I just pay attention to who’s good and who’s not?” It’s like, well, I wish I wish that were the case, but it just isn’t anymore. You do have to, if you really want to have a sense of what it’s going to take and how teams need to navigate their reality, you have to at least be aware that these things exist, even if you don’t want to get into the weeds on how they work. So, so Jesse, let’s bring us back a little bit to that period for the Kings as well, so we could draw some analogies to the Sharks. And, you know, when they were starting to hand out these longer term contracts, uh, was it like established that the young core were like going to be great like the Browns like that was determined, right? Like and and Shen can back me up on this. I mean, there was no doubt from MJ Kobitar’s first game that he was a real NHL hockey player. Yeah. Look it up. He embarrassed Chris Pronger. Yeah. And and Jagar, his first goal is just an incredible goal where he dances Pronger and pulls and pulls Jagar way out of the net. And I think Drew Dowy, I looked it up last year at one point. I think Drew Dowy played less than 20 minutes in his first game. And then I think never again for like five more years or something. And I think he’s only I think he’s only played less other than games where he’s gotten injured. I think the number of games where he’s played fewer than 20 minutes, you can count on on one hand. I mean, you know, it took Brown a few years to become Dustin Brown and it took Jonathan Quick half a year maybe, but by the time they were making the playoffs, yeah, you knew, okay, Jonathan Quick’s their starting goalie. He’s playing 72 games a year. Andre Kobitar is your legit number one center. Drew Dow is your number one defenseman. And the Kings got really lucky as well, not only in acquiring Carter and Richards on cap circumventing deals, but drafting Slava Voyov, whose name is difficult to mention. Um, they drafted him in the second round, the same year they drafted Drew Dowy, and he was incredibly underrated as a player. um what he did was terrible and there’s no regret on having him self-deport back to Russia. But but as a player, ex exclusively what he meant to the team on the ice, he was great and they slowcooked him uh to the point where when he finally did join the team, he was unquestionably the second pair rightand side defenseman. And so on on your top two pairs, you had Dowy and Voyov, same age, same, you know, same comfortability playing the roles they were playing. And then you had Mitchell and Scudi on the left side. Um, two veterans who just, you know, leadership, savvy, all the intangible words you want to throw out there. Um, so yeah, sorry, it’s a long way of answering your question. Well, we’re going to get to we’re going to get to the voyoff part in a little bit. So, again, we’re talking about the kind of five things that in at least in my kind of research or whatever that I think that the Sharks need to do to take that next step. And again, we’re not talking about just making it to the Stanley Cup because that’s like five steps from now. We’re talking about the next step of being a much better team, being a good team, maybe making the playoffs kind of like like the Kings did. And so, number one step we have again learn to play defense. So, we talked about that roundabout for a while here. So, the second thing is, and this one was really interesting to me because I spoke with Jack Ferrer. He was a senior advisor of the Kings back in the Dean Lombardi era. And he he he said this this was the thing that stood out to him about that era of the Kings. And so, number two is be honest about your players internally. And I want to give kind of some background to that. But before I do, I did want to mention about Mike Richards that Jack loves Mike Richard as a leader. Obviously, Richard’s game declined for whatever reason that that that you know, you can uh we that we don’t have to get into right now. But if Mike Richards was the player that he was supposed to be when the Kings acquired him, he was uh team Canada 2000. Uh he he was uh I’m sorry team Canada player. He was supposed to be he was a firstline center that the that the Kings were acquiring to back up their other first-line center Andre Kop Kobitar. And I think Richards was 27 too. He was the right age too. So Richards was the player he was supposed to be that well I’m sure you’ve heard this Jesse that Jack feels that the Kings had another Stanley Cup or two uh in in them if if Mike could have had the normal kind of aging curve. Yeah. I’m gonna jump in there. Sorry. I mean, yes, it’s very convenient to look back and say if if if. But if Mike Richards was the player that everybody thought he was going to be, they probably never trade for Jeff Carter. I don’t know. That’s the who knows, right? Because they still needed scoring and they definitely don’t trade for Marian Gabri in 2014. Like, you know, if things went, you know, if my They didn’t They didn’t trade that much for Gabri though. So anyway, no, I know. But but the point is like they fi everybody conveniently forgets that they fired Terry Murray in the middle of the season the year they won the cup and hired Daryl Sutter and there was talk of Sutter and Lombardi being fired if things didn’t work out. So I mean yeah if the could they have kept going and and you know won the cup more times? Yes. and 2014 and 15 I think they missed the playoffs by less than a handful of points and their record in the shootout was abysmal and you know nobody saw VOV getting deported and they yes there’s yes sure they could have um but one of my gripes with Kings fans and people who worked in and around the organization back then they love to talk about this thing that they built as if it was this unassalable brilliant con, perfectly designed, perfectly plotted out construction. But my argument would be if it was, it would have lasted longer than a year. Well, we’re going to talk about the mistakes cuz when it fell off, it fell right off and went away and has not come back in 10 years since. So, like all this talk about the culture and the locker room and the this that and the other thing, it’s like, well, okay, yes, but Dustin Penner was not the player they hoped that he would be. Sure. Um, Mike Richards was not the player that they hoped he would be. Um, they fired their coach. They did have to go out and get a bunch of, you know, Marian Gabri spoke to him last year at the reunion, told us a story that I’d never heard before. He was on the verge of retiring. like he thought he was done when the kings brought him in. So, I mean, it’s not like it’s not like it was this brilliant master class in planning and strategy. They they made mistakes and they ma and they were fortunate enough to be in a situation where they had flexibility and opportunity to correct their mistakes on the fly. And that’s the danger that the sharks face right now is that if you lock yourself into too many big contracts too soon and you make a mistake, then you can’t change course on the fly. And you bring up you a really good point, Jesse, because if Mike Greer’s talked about this the last couple of seasons where he’s like, I’m not giving term to players yet, and I’m not ready to give long-term contracts out. and and you know sort of what he says is like until I know that this core is ready uh to take the next step. Um and I think you bring up a very good point about you know being able to to to keep your organization somewhat flexible to pivot uh depending on what you have and not not giving those long-term contracts out too early and and and not locking yourself in. Um, and even this current deal with Ekin, this bridge deal is is sort of that as well. So, really good point. Yeah, I mean, I just think it’s the most important thing. And, you know, I’m currently engaged in this fight with a bunch of Kings fans online at the moment because it’s I like to fight with people online. Um, but I I just think flexibility is crucial because you can’t know the future, right? Yeah. And things change in this league and they change so fast. You know what what worked today. You know, you put three guys together and all of a sudden you’ve got a line and you’re like, “Oh, this is incredible. This is this is our next line for the next whatever.” And then all of a sudden, for whatever reason, who knows? Um it doesn’t work anymore. Yeah. And and you got to you got to pivot. And if you don’t have enough guys to to rotate your forwards around to make new line combos that might work, um, you know, what are you supposed to do? And if you have a goalie who all of a sudden gets injured or something, you know, well, that that could be it right there. So flexibility for me is the most important thing. I think uh going back to the idea though of being honest about your players internally though. So want to kind of uh uh bring this uh example and also to uh Jack Fer gave me interesting anecdote about it too. But anyway, so let’s go back a little bit to the Kings and again you know we’re focused on just the Char to the next step but just some relevancy. So June 2006 the Kings are breaking apart a mediocre team. Uh they were Right. Very polite way of putting it. Well, yes, they they got off to a good start the year before. That was the first lockout year, but then they kind of they kind of sputtered, right? So, Dean Leardi takes over and this was a this this was a move that made sense at the time, but then they realized, hey, the player that we acquired isn’t really that that remarkable. So, anyway, June 2006, and I love the video of this when Gary Bman announces his deal at the draft. That’s a uh that the crowd goes oo and aha because I think the draft was in Minnesota. So anyway, Dabari trades Pablo Ditra to the Minnesota Wild and Pablo Ditra, rest in peace, was still a point per game player kind of in the prime of his career and so they traded him to the Wild for a first round pick and Patrick O Sullivan who was a top prospect at the time. So anyway, look up that video of Gary Bman. But let’s fast forward to three years later. OV just time out real quick. As long as we’re talking about honesty about players, he was a point per game player, but the per game he played 58 games. Oh, Demetri. Yeah, he still was a good player. Was the point for sure, but I’m just saying like small sample size. Well, he also got he was in St. Louis before that, too. But that’s neither here nor there. And if he wasn’t good, you’re not getting a first round pick and you’re not getting Patrick. No, for sure. For sure. For sure. I’m just saying it’s not like they jettisoned a a superstar. They No. Yeah. No, no, no. He just indication though of of Lombardi and what he was doing though. He wasn’t going to try to string along a mediocre Kings team in 2006. So anyway, three years later, March 2009, O Sullivan is productive, but he is a one-dimensional player, I would say. So Lombardi moves him for Justin Williams who is 27 who is four years older than O Sullivan and actually is also in the middle of two injury plagued seasons. And I remember as a Kings fan back then Jesse you remember Kings fans hated this deal because this is uh you’re trading a 23 year old guy that you think is going to be part of the future of the team for this guy who is is he broken down? Is he what? And so anyway, Jack Ferrer told me that in his opinion, the Kings that they had an honesty about their players that they could say, “Okay, we we like this Patrick O Sullivan. He did he did good things for us, but he wasn’t going to be a fit.” And even you mentioned some of the other players where the Kings made mistakes. Sure, they made mistakes, right? But they also were able to to get out of those mistakes to to some degree. And some of them were mistakes you understand, some of them you don’t understand. But anyway, one thing that Jack mentioned to me was that he asked other GMs to evaluate his team and the other GMs refused. I found that really interesting. He he told me that that story. I can’t mention the GMs. They’re very very prominent GMs back in the day. But I found that interesting though. Like that is interesting exercise to ask if you trust uh this other GM, he’s your friend, ask him, “Hey, what do you think of of of of my team?” Also, something else that Jack mentioned, and I can’t specify the the player here, but sometimes you make mistakes. You hear great things about a player. You don’t know him internally, but you hear great things. He has a great reputation. You trade for him, and then you find out, and this is Jack’s words, you find out he’s a phony. And this is not talking about Mike Richards at all, by the way. I want to make clear that, but anyway, that that happens, right? And then you you make your mistake and you move on. Another example of this is the Kings when they traded Jack Johnson for Jeff Carter. When the Kings traded for Jack Johnson in what was it 2009 or whatever, everyone thought, you know, JM Jack [ __ ] Johnson, he’s gonna be number one defenseman for the next decade. And he wasn’t. The Kings said, “Okay, we thought he might be this, he wasn’t that, but he saw his value, so let’s get something for him.” Obviously, they got a lot for him. So, jump in and just final point. The final point though sharks relevance here is that I think that for the sharks this matters that just that there are no sacred cows with their prospects. Yeah. Be it like lower level prospects like Henry Threr Dong Guushian or it could be a William Acklin or Will Smith one day. So this is a relentless, merciless process in a lot of ways to get your, you know, whatever, you know, Jesse, you mentioned that the delicate balance that the Kings had, it held together for three years, basically three straight years where they were in the finals or conference finals and then it kind of fell apart, right? Uh, but to do that though, there was a lot of steps for Dean Lombardi and company to take to get there. And one of the things that I do think the Kings, again, they made their mistakes, but they also didn’t hold on to guys. Well, they they they they were able to get rid of the guys and get some value back for them at least for the most part. And and I just wanted to add too, I think that’s a mark of any great GM. Uh which is one that can avoid what you know behavioral economics people would call sunken cost fallacy where you’re invested in this player and you’re like now I’m going to ride this thing all the way to the end when you got to cut your losses and and like you guys have been talking about being honest with your players. Um, and I think that’s a mark of any good GM in any sports. And, uh, we’ve talked about this, but, you know, I have some opinions on, uh, Doug Wilson and his lack of ability to do that and, you know, cut those losses when he had the opportunity. But, um, sounds like uh, and that Justin Williams trade uh, you know, bringing some light to that. Um, yeah, I I I really hadn’t thought about it because, you know, the only time we saw just Williams in postseason, you’re like, “This guy’s nasty, especially in game seven.” So, you know, but at the time of the trade, yeah, that’s really interesting. So, it’s important not to have any golden cows um in players, but Shang, I would also argue that it’s important to remember that when it comes to executives as well. Oh, fair. Yeah. And and I know Jack well and I like Jack and Jack was always incredibly kind to me. But I’m sure Jack didn’t mention Patrick O’Sullivan’s childhood or his relationship with his father when talking about him. And if either of you have read his book, it’s horrifying stuff. Oh, it is. It is. I mean, just horrifying. And it includes Mark Crawford physically abusing him while he was on the bench in a Kings game, which is just mindblowing to an insane degree. And so, you say something sort of casually and dismissively like, “Well, it wasn’t working out here.” And you go, “Well, yeah, no kidding. You have a guy who was abused by his father, drafted as a teenager, brought in, developed by a club, and then who was also his employer, and then while trying to figure out how to, right, continue growing up and mature as an adult while also juggling a weird relative level of fame and prosperity in a city, you know, thousands of miles away from his home. he he has, you know, the person in charge of his career screaming at him and kicking him when he’s on the bench. So, like, yeah, okay, it probably didn’t work out. Um, but could it have? I don’t know. Maybe. And also, full full disclosure, I thought O Sullivan was going to be better than Kobitar and was pissed at the trade for Williams. So, I was wrong about that. Um, very wrong. And in fairness to what your your overall point, it was Dean Labardi that hired Markford. Yes, you know, WTF, right? So, well, well, that’s why I say like the this we have this idea that like and also there are moves that are made that that are the right move on day one and then maybe are not the correct move later. When the Kings and I’m sorry to constantly talk about the Kings, it’s just what I know. Um, when the Kings acquired Brendan Lemieux a few years ago, it was for a very specific set of reasons. And I personally believe that when he was brought in, he was the right player and he and he addressed all those reasons. They talked about needing to get louder in the locker room, tougher on the ice, blah blah blah. When they wound up trading him away, they traded a fifth round pick with him to get Zack Mchuan. And they did not resign Zack Mchuan in the offseason. So you go, “All right, well, if Brennan Leu and Brennan Lemieux and Blake Lazot and Arthur Cali have, weirdly enough combined to make a really excellent fourth line that helped them get into the playoffs one season.” Well, a few years later, for whatever reason, he wasn’t the right fit anymore. And so as teams evolve and teams change, things happen and and what what the right player is today may not be the wrong player tomorrow. Which just to backtrack again is why flexibility is so important and you need the ability um to make changes as situations change because coaches are going to get fired, players are going to get hurt, fits are going to change. You know, you mentioned Jack Johnson Shang, and I don’t want to suggest that this situation had anything to do with his playing career, but who could have ever foreseen what happened with his folks? Sure. Right. And you can’t tell me that that sort of thing doesn’t weigh on a person and change. Who knows, right? Like, and you know, players have personal lives and stuff happens and you just can’t you can’t know, you know, things things. Listen, I, you know, in February, I didn’t think I was going to get diagnosed with cancer, and it totally changed everything about my life. Um, and I’m a totally different person today than I was in January. And you just got to be able to pivot and and but but but hockey teams are very, you know, I frequently compare them to to cruise ships. You know, somebody goes overboard on a cruise ship, part of the reason it’s so important to figure it out right away is because it takes forever to turn that thing around. I mean, you just don’t have time to to deal with it. So, if the sharks lock up the wrong guys to long-term deals and it and you only find out it’s the wrong guy and the wrong deal three years down the road, well, it might take you another three years to to correct for that. So, it’s tough. Yeah. Yeah. And you do bring up a great point that I don’t mean to suggest that I mean, we’re not here to mythologize what the teams did. They made a lot of mistakes. I think we’re talking about more that they made enough of the right moves to get I mean there’s no doubt that what Dean Lombardi inherited in his organization that was not a good situation and that he was able to move them from a rebuild to the playoffs to a Stanley Cup and along the way you make a lot of mistakes but you make enough of the right moves and I think that it’s like sc it’s like scouting in a draft right like you’re going to miss on if you hit 300 when you’re scouting in draft, you’ve done really well. You have a lot of misses. Let me ask you about this program. Yes. Sorry. How many years did Vassic have left on his deal? No, they had one year left. That’s a move I don’t understand. Oh, they’re just clinging the roster space basically. Why? Because they want to bring in Sam Dickinson in Okay. But the team is not going to be any good this year, right? I mean, I don’t mean to say. Yeah. Yeah, but it doesn’t matter. The capit doesn’t matter. The team won’t be good next year, too. So, the capit doesn’t matter. So, it’s about just the roster space more than anything. So, but the the Sharks don’t have any there’s seven spaces for a defenseman. The Sharks don’t have any space for a Velassic. Apparently, not in their estimation. So, they have seven kind of maybe mediocre defenseman who are less mediocre than Velic and they have a young defenseman in Sam Dickinson that they really want to break in. So, all right. Well, I don’t get that move, but that’s just me. And also, I don’t like the Sharks, so I’m prone to finding finding things to complain about. All right. So, anyway, let’s get to number three on my list. Again, five things. Yeah, no worries. So, five five things that the that the Sharks can kind of take from the Kings to move out from the rebuild to the playoffs. So, number one, we talked about learn to play some [ __ ] defense. Number two, number two is be honest about your players. So, if you have basically don’t don’t have any sacred I say this to to the fans, too. So, don’t fall in love with any players because, well, they’re not going to there’s a good chance they’re not going to be around in a couple of years, especially if the Sharks get to the point of being really good. So, anyway, number three on my list is don’t underestimate the intangibles, which I know is going to a huge collective groan from a lot of Sharks fans, but okay. So King’s example that I have here is that by a lot of statistical measures, if you look back at this trade, trading defenseman Lubir Vishnowski for Jared Stole and Matt Green was not a good trade. Now for a very very bad Kings team, Vishnowski was arguably the best player for a couple of years there. Offensive guy, um was a willing defender. He was he was gutty for a small guy. You can count on him for about 50 points or so. Anyway, Vishnowski had a career season three years later after the trade 20101 dropping 68 points for the Ducks. So, looking back at Jared Stole and Matt Marini, look at the numbers. They don’t they don’t look great in comparison. Jared Stole was more of a they were much younger than Vishnowski, though, which is a big part of your point of support guys who are more in the age range of the guys that you’re trying to build a franchise around. They were both I think Matt Green and Jared Still were mid 20s, 26, 27 in that range. But anyway, some background. Stole was more of a 3C when the Kings got themselves back to the playoffs and Green was one of the best sort of bottom pairing defenseman in the league. Their roles evolved over time. By the time the Kings are winning selling cups, stole was more of a 4C, but a really good one. Anyway, talk to anybody about them. They were combination of tenacious competitors, great room guys, essential ingredients for a cup winner. They were leaders even though they weren’t necessarily scoring a point per game or playing 25 minutes a night. And so anyway, the Sharks relevancy for this is in a small way it it could be the Ryan Reeves for Henry Thun deal, which is not a great on the ice deal. Henry Thrun is a young defenseman. Maybe some growth potential in him, but he plays 15 minutes a night, whatever. Ryan Reeves, if he plays seven, eight minutes a night, you’re lucky if he does that, right? But this is a deal for intangibles. You weren’t losing anything in Henry Thun that you can’t replace. Um, obviously they bought Vloic, they didn’t bother, they didn’t bother keeping Vloic around and they got rid of Thrun. And Ryan Reeves does bring sort of a locker room presence and that sort of energy to the room, a kind of confidence and swagger that the Sharks do not have. Now, does that mean more wins next year? I don’t know. Does that mean the Sharks are going to make the playoffs? Absolutely not. But these are little things that again don’t show up in the stats, but they do matter. And so anyway, Jesse Reeves is 38. Yeah, that’s that’s all I got on that one. Okay. I mean, he’s 38. Whatever. I’m asking you about the Kings here, though. So, no, no, just I mean, you know, the the the Viznowski trade was was shocking because, you know, he he was the player that you described. He had been the first defenseman, I think, to lead the Kings in scoring in franchise history what, two or three years before the trade. Um, and yeah, to trade him for two bottom of, you know, bottom six forward, a bottom six forward and a bottom pair defenseman. Although I think when they brought stole in, maybe like theoretically the thought was that he could be a 2C. Yeah, he was a little more middle six. Did didn’t work out. But, you know, but but either way, um you know, if you talk to the management group that was around at the time, I think they would tell you that they were convinced that Stole and Green were exactly as you described them. Um and you know, listen, Matt Green may have been a third pair defenseman, but he wore a letter the entire time. Um so you know and you know at the last three years the Kings have had two anniversary parties um to celebrate the winning of the Stanley Cupback in 12 and 14. They invited all the players, all the coaches, all the front office staff, etc., etc., etc. Stolen and Green are the guys who organized it. Stolen like they’re still there. They’re both on the development staff. It’s important to have human beings like that on your roster. And I would argue that one of and first of all I should say this right off the bat. I am an enormous Matt Green Homer. I have the deepest respect for him as a person and and I spoke to him one night and told him I was terrified of him and and just he was like what? Why? And I was like you’re you know first of all he’s I think he’s 6’4 or something and I’ve recently discovered scout as a scout. Yeah. Yeah. He’s huge. He’s huge and he’s wickedly intelligent and I don’t think that he likes to show it off. And so people that are physically imposing, mentally imposing, and he doesn’t, you know, he’s not a big flexer, right? Like, yeah, he’s 6’4 and he will, you know, pummel you if they called for it, but he’s not like a jerk about it. He’s not, you know, showing up in t-shirts that are eight sizes too small to show off the guns, right? So, I mean, he’s just very unassuming. And I just really like Matt Green is the point. I’m a huge Matt Green stand. But anyway, the point is I don’t think Matt Green knows how to play hockey incorrectly. I think there are some players that when you coach them, you have to tell them, “Okay, if you are a defenseman and your your body is between the goalie and the shooter and a shot comes in, here’s the position to take in order to block the shot. Here’s what you have to do.” Matt Green blocks a shot with his face and I don’t think it’s a conscious decision. I don’t think that he has the ability of processing that thought. I think it is instinctual. I think it’s a part of his personality. I’m a firm believer in the expression that adversity reveals character. It doesn’t build it. And Stole and Green are character guys. Um I don’t know about Ryan Reeves well enough to comment on if he’s that kind of player or not. I just know that he’s 38 and he doesn’t play a full season and that the debates about him as to whether or not he’s actually a valuable asset from a hockey standpoint uh continues to rage on. I get it. He’s a knuckle basher. He’s a face puncher. And if the Sharks feel that that is a need that they need to address, perhaps he will embolden younger players to adopt that mentality. But you’re not going to see a world where Mlin Celibbrini is a fivetime all-star where Ryan Reeves is still on the roster. Like he’s 30. Yeah. I Well, thinking about another sort of example in terms of recent Sharks trades that when we were going through this point that kind of came to mind for me was Zetterland for a stop. So, Fabian Zetterland going out for Zack Stopchuk and you’re really getting I think more of those intangibles and Jesse to your point some of that that compete um and uh and not just looking at you know how many points or goals a player has and I don’t know Shane do you think that’s a a fair analogy to this point? It could be if Ostope is what the Sharks envision. One thing you hear about Ostope that is unusual when a Sharks created for him that you rarely hear a GM talk about for a about a 21 year old player even if they’re trying to talk them up is Mike Greer said consistently, oh stop, he plays the right way. He plays with detail. Now what does that detail mean to your average hockey fan? I’m not really sure. Um but we’ll see if if he can be that type of guy. But if he can be kind of if we want to use the Jared Stole example like a poor man’s Jared stole then I can understand why the Sharks might make such a trade even though stopf produces at a Jared Stole level at Jared’s best or at a Fabian Zetterland level. Fabian Zetland scored over 20 goals for the Sharks last year or two years ago. He led the the Sharks in goals but it’s I think I think that is kind of what Mike is trying to go for. So we talk about don’t underestimate the intangibles. I think Otopchuk is a very good example of what the Sharks are trying to do. So, we’ll see if he gets there. Still, he still has to be able to play hockey, obviously. Yeah. Well, that that takes us to the to point four um on this list of five. Um and this one, you know, we’ve heard a million times, but your best players have to be your best leaders. And I want to expound on this too because Yeah. Okay. So obviously when you look at the Sharks, right, and everyone sees Mlin celebrating, he has all the earmarks to be a leader, someone who’s going to drag the Sharks forward. Hopefully William Akan’s going to be in in on it, too. Look at the Kings, the clear guys that stand out, Andre Kopitar, Jonathan Quick, Drew Dowy. These were all leaders. These are all guys who did it over the summer, too. But one thing that and I think Jesse actually uh touches on this and something that when I asked Jack Ferrer to I looked at I had Jack look at my list of five things and he he didn’t he he he he didn’t say anything angry to me. So I take that as you know you know Jack a little bit of a kromagin. We love him. So that he that he didn’t scowl at me means that okay we have some sense I’m in the right direction and path here. But one thing that Jack said is that everybody was a leader on those on the best of those Kings teams. So that is Jared Stole, that is M. Green. I mean, all these guys that they acquired, that is Justin Williams, right? I’m not even talking about the guys that they win the Stanley Cup with, but the guys that they acquired more of those kind of guys as they got themselves back to relevancy, back into the playoffs. And I love the example of Jesse that you use with Matt Green and how he doesn’t know how to play the game in the way that is he just plays the right way just automatically, right? And so this is exactly what Jack said that nobody took a shift off from day one. Those are the kind of players that the Kings had acquired by and large up and down the lineup and the Sharks are not anywhere close to that. And so that’s where we start talking about intangibles. And it’s not just about the goals and the points and all that kind of stuff, right? It’s not just about eating minutes. It’s about it’s about do you have that attitude that nobody takes a shift off. It’s automatic. You block a shot with your face. That’s automatic. And that’s what you need throughout your organization. And of course, like Jesse mentioned, salary cap and all that kind of stuff, you can’t keep all those guys. You lose those guys. you need to kind of try to replace those guys. Sometimes uh a bargain, sometimes you take a chance on a guy, sometimes it works out like Marian Gabri, a lot of times it doesn’t work out like I don’t know Dustin Penner, right? We talked about Dustin Penner here. So anyway though, I I think though that Zach is talking about sort of the and we’re talking about sort of like the ideals of what you’re trying to get to though. And so I do think that this is a very important one that okay I started with saying your best players have to be your leaders but I’m going to give a nod to Jack here that all your players have to be leaders the best you can. Yeah. I’m going to backtrack again to something I said earlier, though, which is, and I I don’t want to just bash the team that I follow and love, but it’s just super convenient for people who were involved with that club to talk about it as if it was all intentional and beyond reproach. And I don’t disagree that in 2012 they bashed everybody and in 2014 they came back and won threeame sevens on the road. It was an incredible team and and deserves credit and respect and memory. But if everybody was a leader and it was this incredible culture and incredible design, then why did they miss the playoffs for the next year and then get beat by the Sharks in five games in 16, miss the playoffs in 17, get swept in 18, and the wheels totally fall off the wagon in 19, and they go into a rebuild? Sure. No. I mean, it just it’s like Yes. Okay, the team, yes, everybody was a leader in 2012. Well, what happened in 2013 when a couple of those leaders got hurt. They got beat by the Blackhawks. And yes, I understand it was the Blackhawks and the Blackhawks are incredible. And then they come back and won and 14, but like, okay, why’ they miss the playoffs in 15? If everybody’s a leader, you should be able to replace the occasional missing player. Um, and it didn’t happen. Well, I would argue though that this is a year-to-year thing we’re talking about though leadership catch that lightning in a bottle and then then there’s that you win, right? And then some players grow a little complacent. That can happen, right? I’m not saying that happened with the Kings necessarily, but that does happen, right? And so, it’s a delicate delicate kind of thing here. And I’m just saying I agree with your first statement. I think your best players do need to be your leaders. Trying to get everybody to be a leader is dangerous. And believing possible. Yeah. Well, just because I, you know, I listen, I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds on my own personal stuff, but I had a therapist one time tell me that there are three kinds of people. There are leaders, there are followers, and there are observers. And, you know, I know enough about myself to know that I’m not a leader. Right? When I was in Boy Scouts, my friends kept electing me troop leader or patrol leader, excuse me. And I was lazy and didn’t like scouts, so I never earned any merit badges. And finally the troop stepped in and said, “You’re not allowed to be a patrol leader unless you advance past the rank of secondass scout or something like that.” And so I quit. I just said, “Okay, well, I’m not going to be bullied into caring more about the scouts than I do. And if you don’t want me to be a, you know, in the leadership council as so, so, so not everybody’s a leader, but in the right circumstances with the right leadership, I can be cajol into following and into being a good follower.” Um, and that’s again that’s another part of the delicate balance of professional sports that a lot of people I don’t think want to deal with, but that has to be dealt with. You do need to worry about locker room chemistry and leaders and glue guys and followers and good soldiers and everything. And if you pay Mlin Celibbrini, I’m sorry, it’s the one guy I know for sure on the team. If you if you make Mlin Celibbrini the captain because because he’s unquestionably the best player on the team and if you give him $13 million a year starting in his fourth season for seven years and it turns out that he’s not a leader and you know let’s just say Eklund is the actual leader in the locker room and you wind up trading Eklund for whatever reason not you personally but if the team does and if you’re one of the guys on the roster who for whatever reason doesn’t get a contract extension or finds out one of his teams has one of his friends has to be traded because the money is going to the wrong guy and the coach favors the player who’s the star who’s wearing a letter like all that stuff matters when the Kings signed Kovalechuk in what was it 18 I think um everybody was one of the reasons everybody was such a fan of it was because they said well it’s not a trade Kings need offense you’re getting a guy who used to be able to score and you’re not giving up any roster players for him. You’re only bringing him in for for acquis for whatever the you know contract was. And I looked at it and I said that’s not true because signing him to the contract you sign him to pushes you up against the cap and you’re signing him past this season and you have guys at the end of this season who are up for contract extension. It was basically signing Kovalechuk basically meant that at the end of the year one of if not more to Foley Pearson Martinez and Muzzin had to be let go because they were going to need contract extensions and there wasn’t going to be room for it. So signing Kovalechuk in essence meant you were trading one of those four players. Now you got him for a year so that’s fine. But if I was one of those players and I haven’t spoken to any of them about it. I don’t know. This is just speculation on my part. But if I’m Tanner Pearson or Jake Muzzin or one of the guys that’s friends with those guys and you bring in Kovalechuk and sign him to a three-year deal at 6 million or whatever it was and it means that one of us has to leave and we won the cup in 14 and we just took Vegas, you know, held them to one goal games in four games and yes, I understand it’s a sweep and everything, but you know, this is the team that won the cup and we’ve still pretty good and everything. That would piss me off, right? like that would upset me and that would I would think be totally capable of disrupting a room. And I only bring it up so bluntly because that season 18/19 is when the wheels fell right off. And I just don’t think you can say, well, people always have this fight with me where you look backwards and you go, “Well, this didn’t work and here’s all the ways it didn’t work.” And then people look at history of like a very clear history of things not going well. And they go, “Yeah, well, but if.” And I go, “Yeah, but I’m not I’m not Yeah, well, but ifing a moment in history. I’m reverse engineering what actually happened. The wheels fell off and it started, you know, here.” Um, so I don’t know what the point of all that was. I’m just griping about the Kings now. Um, but I think you have to be very careful about who you designate, not just as a leader, but also wearing a letter, getting the big money is important. Chemistry is hard. It’s a hard part of the game. Yeah. All the all the sharks head. It’s maybe that’s that’s podcast, but there you go. Um I did want to to add to to the the the overall point that I think that you know you have Jack saying that everybody needs to be a leader and that’s sort of the platonic ideal, but that’s obviously hard, right? So my experience as a teacher might be more relevant to what you’re talking about that the first day I walk into a classroom, I know there’s going to be five teachers pets. There’s gonna be in between. There’s gonna be five people that hate me on site. And so what you need to do is that you need obviously you need the five people on your side, but they need to influence the 10. And the five who hate you need to be pacified. And so that might a locker room might be a little bit like that. And so in this case that maybe the the five teachers pets, they have to be so strong. They need to be Sydney Crosby. They need to be Conor McDavid. They need to be hopefully Mlin celebrity one day where everyone’s like okay this is no no no one no one messes around with with this guy and what he says and that brings those five that might be mal contents in the wrong situation that they stay on course and obviously the 10 who are influenced more easily into followers as you say that they’re going to go along with the the top dog too and so anyway that just uh goes to your point a little bit I I hate to reference Tik Tok at my age but I have to do it there was this Tik Tok I saw um and it was an NFL executive talking about who they drafted and they said they had an option and everybody thought they were going to take player A and they wound up taking player F and the question was why not take player A. He’s clearly the better player and the guy said player A is going to go out at 3 in the morning and he’s going to take 10 players with him and they’re going to get drunk and they’re going to be out too late and some of them might miss curfew and he’s not going to have a good workout. Yes, he’s unquestionably the more talented athlete, but player F is going to stay home and more importantly, he’s going to stop those 10 guys from going out and he’s not going to hurt you on the field. He might not be as talented or as gifted, but yeah, and I I think and I think this point to to both your guys’ point, what I think is really interesting about it is I do believe that your best players do have to be your best players, but they also have to dictate the culture and then the organization has to do a good job of sort of re-triggering the team to sort of in, you know, promote and demote players that align with that culture and identify And I think that’s actually a good pivot to the fifth point uh and the final point of the five which is you know uh unherald prospects have to become impact players and and Shen I’ll let you expand on this but relating to the previous point is I think you know and even going back to the sun cost fallacy you have to give the opportunity to players that are on the rise and give them opportunities if you see someone in your pool uh performing better than they should. So Shang I’ll let you expand on this fifth point. Well, yeah. So, we talk about the Kings part of it that it’s not just about your lottery picks. Of course, everybody remembers the ones that hit, right? Andre Kopitar and Drew Dowy, but has anyone remember Thomas Hickey? I think he’s the fourth overall pick of 2007, the Patrick Hane draft. So, and there’s other guys like that we could look back on were the Kings and we will look back on with the Sharks that will not hit who were top picks. So, you’re going to miss on some top picks. That’s it. That’s happens to the best of them. There is a there’s Yeah. If you can give the the best scouting director a top 10 pick every year, they’re gonna they’re going to miss on a few of them. So, you need your unheralded picks. You need your Jonathan Quick 2005 number 72 pick. 2007 number 61 Wayne Simmons become impact players. Jesse, you mentioned Voyoff who was a second round pick. And so, anyway, with Quick and Simmons, obviously Quick leader, top goalie, all that stuff, right? Simmons was eventually able to bring a player with enormous reputation like Mike Richards to LA. I know we talked debated a lot about Richards, but people I think forget just what kind of get he was in the summer of 2012. This was a huge huge get. So no one really foresaw the how precipitous his decline would be. So and that that’s something that Wayne Simmons and Braden Shen was another big part of that deal that Simmons had built his reputation enough to be important part of that deal. So for the Sharks relevancy here, so is it going to be a second rounder like Turner? Is it going to be a fourth rounder like Henoni? So it’s not going to be just about your top 10 picks. So and it look to Zubar to your point, it also will be the Sharks needing to recognize that, hey, this guy has moved ahead out of the guy that we thought was going to be a star three years ago, but we got to give Ken Yoni, we got to give Eric Pamp or somebody like that, right? Shout out my boy. Yeah. Well, I mean that that sort of goes back to what I was talking about as far as the timing of it all, right? Because Yeah. You know, you’ve got Mlin Celabbrini who’s 18 and fortunately I don’t I mean you guys correct me if I’m wrong, but there’s nobody standing in his way to become if he isn’t already the number one seed for the Sharks, right? Yeah. Nobody. Right. Well, so you you bring up a point. Yeah. No, there isn’t. But um I would love to see like Michael Misa give him a give him a run for his money for the number one seed. I don’t think it’s gonna, you know, but you know, but but but I mean, but they’re but they’re roughly the same age, but but I just mean like there’s no 32year-old who’s just like Joe Thornton isn’t still there where you go, “Ah, come on. He’s a legend.” You know, it’s it’s Jumbo Joe. Like you can’t, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, your your s future superstar number one C is just sort of languishing on the bench. So until we sign Mick Jesus next year. Oh, well getting it. Um, I don’t know if you guys saw the I don’t know if you guys saw the Eklund rumor. Um, but I had to explain to some of the younger people. Hockey Buzz Ecklund, not not William. Yeah, sorry. Explain that to the I had to explain to some of the younger people that worked for the Kings who Ecklland was because they were like, “What is this bum talking about?” And I was like, “Bum? That’s like I mean, yes, he’s a bum, but he’s still Ekkund.” Um anyway, um hockey buzz is actually part of the reason why, side note, hockey buzz is one of the reasons why I’m still not in LA covering the Kings as was the goal back in the day, but that’s another side story. So, go ahead, Jesse. Um no, I just, you know, not having people in place to hold your superstar players back is part of it. And giving those support players the chance to grow into their roles is important as well. Right. So, I’m sorry, I’ve forgotten the names you mentioned already. Um, one of them started with a P, I think. Um, Po Poderalski, was that who you’re talking about? Pamp he’s a he’s a lowered prospect that uh we signed and he’s been on the on the rise ever since. And I like haven’t signed him yet. Just just my they dropped it anyway. Yeah. But but I mean having, you know, not having it to to bring up the earlier four points, you know, not having any sacred cows, being honest about who the players are, right? even though I was crinkling my nose at the Vloic thing, right? Like, okay, move a guy like Vloic out, right? You say, “Okay, you have the opportunity. We paid him too much money for however many years. There one year left. We can eat the loss on it.” And so, okay. Right. So, let’s get these let’s get these young players the chance to play the minutes fully understanding that not every forward is going to be a top six forward or a top line forward and not every defenseman’s going to be a top pair defenseman, right? you you still need 20 guys on the ice in any given game. Well, 19, I guess, with a backup goalie, but yeah. So, I mean, having the room to to let guys grow into very specific roles is important. So, we’re going to move into I’m going to ask Jesse if he has any extra thoughts, but I just wanted to kind of do a quick recap before I asked Jesse if he has any more to the five bullet points. So, just review it really quickly. So, number one, learn to play defense. Number two, internally organization. You have to try your best to be honest. You’re going to make mistakes still, but try your best to be honest about your players. Don’t fall in love with anybody. Number three, don’t underestimate the intangibles. Number four, okay, we’ll go back to the original. Your best players have to be your leaders. They’re they’re going to impact everybody else. And finally, number five, inheralded prospects have to become impact players. So anyway, the question for you to close, Jesse, is so those Kings again again we’re not talking about 2012 the Stanley Cup victory. We’re talking about the in between time. So, anything else that stands out to you that the Kings did do well that another organization can emulate? From the couple years of the rebuild under Mark Crawford that Dean Lombardi started to hiring Terry Murray to finally making the playoffs in 2010 to for the first time in I think the the the it was been like se it had been like seven years for the Kings at that point or something like that. So, one of the executives Sorry, go ahead, Zir. Sorry. Just want to say one thing. If you say successfully execute a reverse sweep, I’m never speaking to you. No, no, no. I mean, look, playing in a playing in a division with a garbage team like the Sharks is helpful. No, I’m just kidding. Um, now look, one of the executives that I would consider myself friends with of those Kings teams used to tell me, well, still does I guess. He would say there were three things that they were doing, and he’s never met anybody that correctly identified all three of them. Um, or maybe there were five, but I think it was three. Anyway, okay. Um, and he said like, you know, people people take a stab at some of the obvious ones like, okay, get big players. Yes, size was obviously an element. And you know, focus on possession. Yes. Okay. It’s obvious, right? Like the Kings prioritized possession in a way that maybe wasn’t um as widely accepted at that time, right? That’s like I said, it was the first I’d ever heard of Corsy. And then, you know, they happened to be the best team in the league at the time when, you know, Corsy went from being a sort of niche concept to the driving force. Um, but I’ve always thought that one of the three pillars, and I haven’t run this by him, so I hope I’m not saying anything that would piss him off. Oh, man. I would love to hear those three pillars one day or uh Yeah. No, me too. But they’re not going to tell me. Um, but one of the ones that I always speculated about was um getting guys with something to prove. Oh, and I think that’s a good one. Yeah. I think there’s a difference between, and I always fumble the the phrase that I came up with, there’s a difference between guys that have something to prove and guys that are trying to prove themselves. Mhm. If that makes any sense. And it sounds like sounds like the same thing, but like I think Justin Williams is a good example of this, but go on though. Yeah. Yes. And and so you want guys with a little bit of a chip on their shoulder because you know Richards and Carter had been to the final and that team got blown up for dumb reasons. Green and Stole had been to the cup final and that team had been blown up for stupid reasons. Williams won the cup in Carolina wound up I was he traded to Philadelphia after he won the cup? No, he was drafted by so you know what I mean but I mean like Williams was on his third team and been jettisoned for injury reasons. Willie Mitchell. Willie Mitchell was claimed off the scrap heap because people were like, “Well, he’s banged up in concussions and, you know, injuries and whatever.” Rob Scudary was over they overpaid to get him, but he was, you know, a support piece on the Penguins and became the guy here. You know, Jonathan Quick, I don’t know what he was. I don’t know what he had Bernier’s job. It’s Jonathan Bern. So I mean if you you go up and down the roster and you just go like wow okay these are you know the that middle tier of players all had come so close in different places or had been you know sort of rejected or jettisoned by their club and so aside from the cost control element aside from the age and you know timelines and timing of it I just think having guys who are hungry for for lack of a better phrase I think that’s probably helpful. I haven’t I haven’t ever sat down and really like, you know, laid it out eloquently to anybody, but I always thought that might have been one of the key elements. I think that that’s fantastic. And I think uh Justin Williams kind of fits in that in the sense that Justin we knew we know we knew that Justin Williams was a good player. He had proven it with the Flyers. He had wanted something like help with the Hurricanes, but then he got hurt and people were like, “Oh, I don’t know if he’s good anymore.” I mean, his nickname was Mr. Glass when they acquired him in LA. Was it really? I forgot. Yeah. People like me, people like, listen, I was wrong. People like me were like, “What are we trading, you know, Patrick O’Sullivan, future all-star for this washed up, beaten down guy?” You know, cuz I can’t remember any game, but I mean, like when Williams got here, I don’t think he missed more than five games in the next five seasons or something. And uh and even Gabri, right? Like when I spoke to Gabri last year and I found out that he was essentially done, right? He had sort of told his wife like, “I’m going to retire. I’ve had enough of this. I can’t do it anymore. And she was like, well, you know, just play out your contract. Give it a shot. And the Kings pick him up for 50% of his deal. And he was on his last legs. And look at him. He comes in and, you know, they reverse sweep the sharks. Sorry, Zubir. I wasn’t going to mention it, but now you put it in my head. Kind of a funny story actually tangent a little bit. My I showed this to Shank. My best friend is uh from LA and um for my uh for my um uh he was he was my best man and he he kept joking. I was like, “Hey, what are you going to do for my speech?” He’s like, “I’m going to play the the end of game seven.” Oh, no. At your wedding. And I was like, “Haha.” And he he’s a lover of film. So, we put this montage of film and he actually slipped in the end of game seven at my wedding. Listen, I was I was I was dating a Sharks fan at the time. It was a tough night for me. So, But I wanted to to go back to the the point though of of players that again like you you phrase it really well, players that aren’t trying to prove themselves but have something to prove. But these players coincidentally too are also players that you can get slightly cheaper and that matters in the cap era. Right? So, you talk about acquiring a middle class of player that’s going to that’s going to to give you more than their contract value, which I don’t think any Kings fan or any hockey fan would would question that. Justin Williams did that for the Kings for a long time. Willie Mitchell did that for the Kings for a long time, right? So, you you there are gamles obviously, right, for the for the injury concerns and they blow up in your face. But if they don’t blow up though, right, you get this this player that is outperforming his contract, which is again so important in the cap era. So I think that that that point is really a really outstanding one. That is actually a terrific sixth six sixth pillar for the for the Sharks to kind of target as maybe it’s going to be I think the Sharks maybe they found somebody in a oraf a guy like that who was a legit number two defenseman for the Capitals 2018 when they won San Cup and with the Hurricanes he’s been sort of tossed aside to some degree he’s still playing big minutes but he wasn’t on the power play like he wanted to be right and so he’s a guy maybe maybe he can be that guy I don’t But that’s the kind of guy though that yeah, again, you know, he can play. There’s no question that that Orof can play, Justin Williams can play, but a little bit of a chip on their shoulder. That’s kind of what you need. Yeah, fantastic observation. Thank you. Yeah. All right, so that pretty much wraps up, you know, some of the the main things that we think to get it to the Sharks to where, you know, they’re back in uh we have some good California rivalries ahead again. I mean, it would be it’d be nice because um I you know th those days when the trip through California, I can’t remember what they called it, but you know, Death Valley. Oh, yeah. It was, you know, it was the ducks, the kings, and the sharks. and you’d be lucky to get out of there with two points. Um, it’s a lot of fun, especially since the Sharks never want to come. Oh, that’s friends like these. Huh? Friends like these. I will say if I can though, just one personal philosophy. It doesn’t necessarily fit into the pillars or anything. Um, an expression that I’m really fond of when I argue with people about team construction and everything is I don’t know anything about auto racing. I don’t know anything about cars. I mean, and when I say nothing, I mean I know how to put gas in my car and how to drive it to the Jify Lube to get an oil change. And that’s how you get it out. It’s about the end of it. But I do know this. You can spend all the time and energy and money you want on the engine of your car, right? when I hear people talk about F1 or NASCAR and they’re talking about the construction of the car and the, you know, the engineers that build these wonderful machines, but at the end of the day, if you don’t have a steering wheel at all, you cannot race, never mind win a race. And I think when people talk about team construction, they spend a lot of time worrying about the engine and they forget completely that you need a steering wheel. you need, you know, the Kings won the Stanley Cup with Brad Richardson and Nolan and Colin Frasier and Jordan Nolan on the roster, right? Like these are not superstar players. These are guys where if you look back on it and you go, okay, well, who was the MVP of the 2012 Kings? You go, well, Jonathan Quick won the K Smite. Okay, yes, Jonathan Quick was amazing. and you know Justin Williams won it in 2014 but it could have been Kopitar, it could have been Dowy, it could have been Gabri, it could have been any number of guys and all the guys were leaders, etc., etc., blah blah blah. You go like, okay, but Katon Ellerby, I think it was Katon Ellerby. No, it wasn’t Keaton Ellerby. It was um the other defenseman who only played seven games that playoff run. I’m blanking on his name, but the Kings had injuries. Oh, Jeff Schultz. Yes, thank you. Jeff Schultz. Yeah. Yeah. Um but like you need those guys. there may not be quote unquote as valuable in some sort of like very esoteric sports talkie type conversation where you go well who’s the most valuable who’s the most important yada yada yada blah blah blah but if you don’t have those guys you are not going to win like period the end you need a steering wheel to drive your car doesn’t matter how much money you spent on your tires doesn’t matter how much money you spent on your engine doesn’t matter what it looks like the paint job the upholstery if you don’t have a steering wheel you’re not going going to win. There’s a million pieces that go into a car and there’s there’s 19 guys that go into making a hockey roster in any given night and you need even more than that on your in your organization to make sure that you can pick the best 19 guys. Um, so that’s my general takeaway is I think management and the economics of the game get overlooked because people want to talk about sports the way that people can talk about basketball. Not to take a swipe at basketball, but you know, basketball is just a much easier equation, right? You get a LeBron James, you get a Steph Curry, you get someone like that, Kevin Durant, and all of a sudden you have solved for a number of problems. not all of them and it’s still complicated and you still have to worry about a lot of the stuff. Smaller roster, smaller bench, it’s easier. Hockeyy’s just a lot more complicated. There’s a lot more moving pieces and it requires flexibility, vision, honesty, like you said in one of your pillars, like it requires all that. Yeah. And to your point too in the analogy with basketball, it’s like if you get, you know, LeBron or something like that, they’re playing, you know, 89% of the game. Yeah. 48 minutes a night. Yeah. Yeah. you know, your your best player in hockey is playing, you know, maximum like 45%. Right. Like shared with Yeah. Yeah. The 2007 Ducks, one of the things they had going for them was that they had three defensemen, each of whom played 30 minutes a night, but like I don’t know, point to me another team that’s ever done that. I can’t think of one. Like um so yeah, it matters. Anyway, that’s that’s it. That’s my rant. Sorry, I know you asked me to be short- winded, Shang, but I can’t help it. I took Well, we have a problem because we have a a class here of I like to talk a lot, too. So, yeah. Sorry. So, don’t apologize because you’re right. Otherwise, I’d be apologizing all episode. And I’m the intangibles big blue guy. Good. Yes. Exactly. Don’t overlook Don’t overlook that that Dwight King right there. Okay. At the bottom there. Okay. Well, I mean, sorry, now that you you bring it up, I’m just going to go on another tangent. While I do think that that some people overvalue the intangibles, we’ve reached this point now where like analytics people assume that the math is totally unbiased and they forget all of the bias that goes into selecting the math or or valuing what math gets applied to. And and yeah, it’s it’s scary to me sometimes how people treat data as if it’s infallible and without bias. And it’s totally biased. It’s just as it’s just as biased as the eye test. Um to me anyway, you have to take all input variables to make the best decision. It’s not Yeah. Yeah. And and every decision like I Shane, I don’t know if you’re aware of this or not, but I’m become a huge season one and two Ted Lasso truther. And as Ted Lasso said, um, all people are different people. All teams are different teams. All scenarios are different scenarios. I’m paraphrasing off of the all people are different people. And anyway, that’s all I got. I’ll let you guys let me go now. Well, it is I mean it go goes back to it is sort of a strange elixir and balance and when you get it for a couple years like the Kings did the Blackhawks had it for a little longer but still was very very finite. It just you have it and then you don’t have it right. And so it’s it’s hard it’s hard it’s hard to get to for sure. So anyway, Jesse Yeah, I’m sorry. Yeah, I’ll shut up. Sorry. No, go ahead. No, no, no. Well, I was going to say somebody was talking about the Panthers recently and talked about how their or or I won’t I’ll leave the Panthers alone, but like I saw a post on Instagram, some goofy, you know, sports aggregation graphics nonsense site, and it was ranking the teams into different tiers, and the top tier, the S tier was like teams that are set up for the next eight years. Oh, yeah. Like, eight years? What are you talking about eight years? Like I so far out. In 2014, I was like, “Oh, the kings are gonna be a dynasty for five years and they were done in one like eight years.” Yeah. I mean, 2012, right? Like Drew Dowy is I see he was like, he was like 22 or 23, right? Kopitar. Yeah. You just think Jonathan Quick is in his in his mid20s. So, yeah, stuff happens and it happens fast. So, if you get those couple of years, which obviously the Sharks haven’t gotten yet in their history, you you tre, you know, you treasure that. that when sorry I know I keep saying I’m going to let you let me go. Uh when the Kings won in 14 which was two for the team I remember thinking wow Joe Sackic won the cup twice. Mike Madono won it once. Steve Eerman won it I think three times. Yeah. Mario won it twice. Um Wayne Gretzky only won it four times. Sorry just was Eisman four. Did he did he wasn’t he there for the 20078? I could be wrong about that one. I think he was gone by that point. But but Chris, there were guys that won it four times with Detroit. I just But anyway, the point is like if you’re going to tell me that Joe Sackic won the cup twice and Kobitar won the Stanley Cup twice and I’m supposed to feel mad about it because it only it only happened twice. Like twice is pretty good. Twice is. So yeah, it takes a lot, you know, it takes a lot of things going right to get there. For your sakes, Zubar and Shang, I will say I hope it happens to the Sharks, although I don’t. All right. Well, I’ll I’ll end on I’ll end on this note. I I at one time have said uh Andre Kopitar most underrated player of my generation. I agree with that. It’s always I still believe it. I still believe it. Yeah. So, see, you’re sending hate and I’m giving you some love. I appreciate it. Listen, Joe Thornton seems like a fantastic guy and a fantastic hockey player. Um, that’s all that would be that would be a bar debate. And yes, I would trade Andre Kopitar for Joe Thornton or other I would say Joe Thornton for Kobitar. Sorry, I reversed it. So, sorry, Jumbo. Oh, you’re Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yes. No. No. Listen, I would take Andre Kobitar over Joe Thornton. No disrespect to Joe Thornton, but um you know, look, sports sports is goofy and I don’t like the Sharks, so I can’t help it. But you guys seem all right. That’s a good bar fight, though. That’s a good That’s a good conversation. Yeah, we’re drink. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, are you shopping with the team, Jesse? Uh no. No. All right. Well, we’re in LA. We’ll grab a drink and uh chat some more. If you’re gonna if you’re going to be in uh in Anaheim for the Golden State uh rookie tournament or whatever they’re calling it, I’ll be there for that. So, I’ll see you there. That’s going to be in Irvine, right? Yes. Which fantastic building for the record. Yeah. Yeah. My nephew plays there. I’ve been out there. That thing’s awesome. It really is. Especially that I don’t know what they call the 2500 seat rink, but it’s impressive. Yeah. Can you get reception there yet, though? The last time I was there, I couldn’t get reception. I couldn’t tell you. It’s been a while, but I’m sure they’ve I’m sure they’ve sorted it out. Cool. Well, thanks a lot, Jesse. This was great. Thanks for having me. I hope I didn’t make too much fun of the Sharks or talk too much about the Kings. Hey, we’ll get our laugh eventually when when Dowy’s like 50. Yeah. And still playing pretty soon. Awesome. Well, thanks a lot, buddy. Thanks for having me on. Nice meeting you. Nice seeing you, Shane. Nice to see you. Nice to meet you, Shang. Have fun in London. Yep. All right, boys. Till next time. Bye, guys. See you.
The San Jose Hockey Now Podcast is sponsored by Bring Hockey Back!
In this episode of the San Jose Hockey Now Podcast, Sheng and Zubair connect from London and Minnesota to dive into latest San Jose Sharks news, including a major arena update and Michael Misa contract speculation.
They welcome guest Jesse Cohen (All The Kings Men Podcast) for a deep discussion on how the Sharks can take the next step in the rebuild — six steps back to respectability — drawing lessons from the Los Angeles Kings’ rebuild in 2006 and first playoff run in 2010 before they won the Stanley Cup in 2012.
This episode is packed with insights for San Jose Sharks fans eager to see their team rise again.
⸻
⏱️ Chapters & Timestamps
0:00 – Welcome & intros (Sheng in London, Zubair in Minnesota)
0:42 – Teasing a very exciting next episode
1:12 – Sheng’s London literary adventures & inspirations
3:20 – Music and nightlife in London (Blues Kitchen, Ain’t Nothin’ But)
4:04 – Sponsor shoutout: Bring Hockey Back
4:43 – Main topic: What steps do the San Jose Sharks need to return to the playoffs?
6:25 – Learning from the Kings’ rebuild & playoff rise
7:50 – Importance of “the next step” (before dreaming of the Stanley Cup)
8:01 – Sharks arena deal: staying in San Jose through 2051
9:44 – Arena district vision & fan experience upgrades
10:44 – Michael Misa ELC signing speculation & Carey Price trade theory
13:37 – Sharks’ contract limit challenges & cap mechanics, per Puckpedia
17:00 – What’s a fair return for taking on Price’s contract?
20:22 – Rookie Showcase & Rookie Faceoff timing for Misa?
21:11 – Canadiens’ cap situation & desperation?
22:27 – Guest intro: Jesse Cohen (All The Kings Men Podcast)
24:01 – Jesse joins: background, Sharks-Kings rivalry, health update
26:02 – Step #1 for San Jose Sharks to return to respectability: Learn To Play Defense
29:01 – Possession, forecheck, and team structure insights
31:14 – Timing & roster construction challenges for Sharks
33:40 – Importance of middle-class support players
42:00 – Step #2: Be Honest About Your Players (No Sacred Cows)
48:00 – Patrick O’Sullivan-Justin Williams trade, and honesty in evaluations
53:00 – Sunk cost fallacy & Sharks’ parallels
1:00:01 – Step #3: Don’t Underestimate Intangibles (Jarret Stoll & Matt Greene trade, Ryan Reaves debate)
1:08:04 – Step #4: Best Players Must Be Your Leaders
1:20:01 – Step #5: Unheralded Prospects Have To Make NHL Impact
1:25:02 – Timing, flexibility, and San Jose Sharks’ prospects development
1:26:17 – Jesse’s Step #6: Get Players With Something To Prove
1:33:08 – The “steering wheel” analogy: importance of depth and role players
1:39:28 – Analytics vs intangibles debate
1:42:01 – Closing thoughts: Kings vs Sharks legacy, bar battles, future of the rivalry
4 comments
I wouldn't be shocked if the contract slot alleviation was basically the whole return. It is an LTIR contract, so every team in the league can take the contract. The only reason they want to move it is so they don't use LTIR and can build cap space for the deadline. Any team not planning on adding at the deadline can take him without issue.
Can someone get a pair of glasses that actually fit Zubair? The pair he is wearing are way too big!!!
Wishing Jesse the best of health
Sharks traded Zetterlund for the pick which became Cole McKinney along with Ostapchuk. Two guys who bring grit. Ostapchuk wasn't good last season, but he's 21 and winning physically against NHLers at that age is a challenge.
As for the Reaves trade, he's really not there to punch other players. He's there to help attitudes on a young team– probably with guys like Ostapchuk.
Really great conversation. Lot of really good points. The 'get guys who are hungry' sounds a lot like the Panthers, too.