State of the St. Louis Cardinals (Roundtable Special with Gateway Sports) | S9 Bonus Episode

State of the St. Louis Cardinals (Roundtable Special with Gateway Sports) | S9 Bonus Episode

All right, welcome everyone to this first maybe annual, maybe we won’t want to do it every year. Um, let’s hope not, right? Because there’s a reason why we’re here tonight on Gateway Sports to talk about the states of the St. Louis Cardinals. Um, those of you who have seen me before, no, this is this is not the other show. Um, I’m on with the Gateway guys. They get my night tonight. And so joining me we have uh co-creator of Gateway Sports and uh Derek King, host of the Derek King sports show, Rodney Kppel, co-host of stupidest sports show on earth. That’s one of my new favorites. We have uh several baseball conversations with this guy. Uh Don Glenn, and I’ve got to get it right this time. Host of Talking Sports with Uncle Dawn. I was screwing that up every week. Um on I believe I’ve been calling it by the old by the old name. And with me, uh, it’s like like he never left. Um, co-host for my co-host for the Team Rivals podcast. Cubs fan. I’m going to get to that in a second. Cubs fan. Uh, but co-host of the Team Arrivals podcast in Yes, I asked Cubs fan to uh to join tonight just so we could get an outsers’s perspective. Um, I could tell you guys right now, I wouldn’t have asked him to do this 10 years ago because it would have been unbearable. um because the Cardinals have just been knocked out of the division series, I believe, um by the Cubs. So, he would have not been tolerable and we wouldn’t have been able to do this. But 10 years later, he’s gotten a little bit older, more mature, and so uh he’s he’s he’s welcome on this Cardinal only show. But I think it’s important to get an outsers’s perspective on all of this. So, without uh without further ado, we’ll have time here at the end. We’ll save some time for all your uh show handles and and your Twitter handles and everything like that, right? So, um, we’re all gateway folks here. So, I want to start off with not really I don’t want to recap 2025. Uh, I think that’s probably been done what, 200 times out there by other baseball creators and we’ve certainly done it on Team Rivals podcast. I’m sure everybody you see that fly over my head. I told you I’m going to freak out on the show and I’m going to jump out of my seat. That thing is huge. It’s like a helicopter. Ron Neville, Lord of the Flies. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know who left the door open, but um anyway, uh so I don’t I don’t want to have a 2025 recap. Like a lot of us have already done that. We probably heard a million of them already. So I want to take a broader look at really this organization. Um it’s gone uh we’ve seen a change at the top already, but we don’t really know what that’s going to look like yet. It’s all been words. We haven’t seen anything happen because we can’t really, right? Season’s technically not over yet. We still have a a tournament called the World Series that we got to get out of the way, I think, before we’ll really know if anything significant is going to happen. So, I’m going to start at the top here. Um, Derek, with you, um, you know, looking at the organization just in a in a broader sense, the direction of the franchise, culture of the organization, trajectory, uh, for moving forward, where do you think the Cardinals are at right now? You know, I I I have a hard time following a lot of the uh the heads on fire running around. It’s the end of times. The trumpets have sounded. The velvet robes have parted and the end of days have come. But it’s definitely at the back end of how bad I think that this has gotten for the organization. It’s clear that there was a change that has been needed uh organizationally for some time that they’re starting to kind of work their way through that. Um now, what does that mean for the future? Obviously, we’ll get a little bit further into that as the show goes on, but I think that really at this point in time, we’ve really I think have essentially gotten to the bottom of what the problem is. And hopefully hopefully crossing our fingers here, we’ve gotten to a point where we’re going to start looking more forward and uh making a better plan for the future with some younger players. Um we already know they’re not going to go out and spend big money on free agency. They’re just not going to do that. That’s just not the way that this organization works. They’ve said it in their pressers that that’s not what they’re going to do. So, it definitely looks like this is more of a rebuild, but I don’t see uh that it could really get much worse than what it really has been for the last couple of years. Um Rodney, same same question. It’s very broad. You know, if I if I let you guys I think each of us could talk about this for an hour straight, but in a broad sense, where do you think they’re at right now? A little bit of an indication. Where do you think they’re heading? Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean he Derek is is right. I I unfortunately I think it could get worse. Um but not much, right? Like I think we could see an even worse attendance season that we saw this year. I really do. We’ve know Cardinal fans are very uh point blank like if you’re not going to win, we’re not going to show up is kind of what they’re showing right now. If you’re not going to try, we’re not going to show up. It’s not necessarily winning. I may not have said that right, but if you’re not going to try or we aren’t perceiving that you’re going to try, we’re not showing up. So, the change is nice and and I know we’re going to talk about the change and what that means, but I I am going to go into this with an open mind of Bloom is going to progress this franchise to a higher level. Now, what that higher level is, I don’t know. Uh but I’m going in with an open mind and hoping that that going forward uh we’ve looked past these last three years because it’s not in a great spot. Don. Well, I mean, I listened to the presser and when they introduced Bloom and you know, knowing where this organization has been the last two or three years, uh, with the crazy front office dealings and things that have happened and to hear him say that, I mean, it was, you know, like you said, the same, like Derek said, the same old thing. uh draft and develop. But I do think the one thing that I caught was that the statement that he made was that we are a draft and develop organization, but we need to be elite at not uh I think it was not only that uh in dealing with our own players, but those but our evaluation of of other teams. So, I think we might see a little bit better down the road. Not going to happen overnight. Not going to happen tomorrow. I don’t expect, matter, I’m working on a column now that my my title is don’t expect much. Um because I’m not expecting much. And it’s not because I don’t think they’re going to do anything. We just don’t know what they’re going to do and how they’re going to accomplish it. All right. Last certainly certainly not least, Pete, if you could do one administrative favor for me. Can you share this on uh our tour page as well if you um but same question to you again. It’s very broad. Go as deep as you want. Look, I think and I’ve been saying this to you for a while. I I really do think that the Cardinals are going to have to bite the bullet. They’re going to have to be honest with fans and they’re going to have to say that this is this is organizational rot, right? You’ve got you’ve got rotten timbers in the foundation and it needs to be torn down and rebuilt and it’s going to be unpleasant. I mean, basically what the Cubs did in 2012 when they hired Theo Epstein and he came in and he said, “We are going to rip this thing down to the studs and it’s not going to be fun for a couple of years, but down the road it’s going to pay off. The problem is is that Cardinals fans I think have gotten so used to this being an elite organization um that you know will you continue to see what you’ve seen the last couple of years where they say okay well you know we understand that you’re trying but I’m not going to pay for this so you know talk to me again when we’re a success and it may end up looking at Bush Stadium like it did at Wrigley Field in the 70s where you know Lee Elie is ranting because there are 5,000 people in the stands and they’re all booing him for decisions that he’s made. Of course, as a Cubs fan, I will relish every single one of those non-ellouts. See, I trusted you. Um, okay. You had to bring on the Cub fan. I’m used to it. I’m I’ve been tenderized over the last decade, so I’m like, this is it’s not going to phase me at all. Um it’s it’s it is funny when you think about uh you know Cubs fans were so happy golucky just good good folks before 2015 and since they had that taste of success boy what a threeear span it was they were intolerable including this guy and I had to do this with him once a week for like three or four years until he mellowed out but uh it’s like must be getting over getting over the uh the 5. think that must be the the turning point. Um, at the risk of me like one of the things the Cardinals have I think been guilty of is they’ve tethered themselves a little bit too much to past success and they’ve done it for a long time. Like they’ve milked that forever it feels like. So I don’t want to also tether myself to the recent um the recent trend because I run the risk of doing the same thing just in in in a opposite way I guess. But I think do think it’s important to understand some of the things that have led to this um led to where we’re at where why we’re at the point we are now. I don’t know if there’s any fact behind this or not. It’s just something I I didn’t have a lot of time to research it, but it’s just I’m curious your thoughts on this. I want to focus on Ballpark Village just for a second and all the developments around that are that are off the field but around the park. I know that that was a big focus for ownership. Um and and they I have to say they’ve done a nice job. Pete’s even been there um and seen the development around um Bush Stadium, Bush 3. Do you guys believe that any of that has been a distraction? Just looking at the organization as a whole, has that stuff been a distraction? Because if I remember correctly, it was just before 2015, I think, when the main structure in Ballpark Village actually went up. um and other developments like one cardinal way, you know, the big apartment building and everything that followed and in the years later. You guys think any of this has been a distraction to the organization as a whole where they’ve maybe eyeballs were on that part of the organization, maybe a little too much and not so much on the field or am I just crazy? And I’m okay if you say that too. I don’t think you’re crazy. um then there could be some truth to what you’re saying. Um but you know I I would I I I think the push for for Ballpark Village came from some of the other teams that were developing around their own stadiums um at at Pittsburgh and a couple other places that I know that had that have put in outside developments. I don’t know if Pittsburgh I think maybe What’s that? I said Pittsburgh almost said Pittsburgh. Uh Pittsburgh I don’t know if that’s the best example. Um because Well, no, but I’m just saying I’m just saying there’s other there’s been other teams. That’s the That’s the first one that came to mind. Yeah. Yeah. Um but you know I I to say that it was I don’t think it was a huge distraction. I think it was it did at a point in time. um at least give the appearance to the fans that it was their main focus and not the team, which I think they should have done a better job of uh trying to uh allay fans fears on that. But yeah, I mean, anytime you got something that’s outside that’s a project like that, uh there’s going to be some distraction here and there. I don’t know how much of a part it played into everything. Um, and I don’t know how much finances actually were diverted from the team. Uh, I know they did have some ex outside investors in that as well. So, who knows exactly what money came from the team. Um, but as far as dividing their attention, yeah, sure. I probably have played a little bit of part in it. Anybody else have a thought on that? I’ve always wondered, but I’ve never really asked or had a deep conversation about it. Yeah. I mean, I I I distraction. I don’t know if it was a distraction, but it’s a money it’s a money maker for the organization, which which lessens the need to make money on the field, right? Like, you know, if you’re making money off the field, why, you know, I I I know you want to make as much money as possible, but like if that’s making a ton of money, you don’t have to worry about on the field as much, right? Like I and that’s what we’re saying like do do the dwits care if you win because you know you’re buying the $9 beer outside the stadium and you’re paying $20 to eat your meal outside the stadium and that’s going back into into the organization. So I don’t know if it’s a distraction or if it’s more of a um all right we don’t necessarily have to make all the money inside the stadium now we got this and we’re doing just fine. So um yeah I think there’s something to it. I I I just don’t know if distraction is the word I would use or if it was just a um uh I don’t know combination of things. So yeah, it’s a great question though, Ron. Yeah. Well, um yeah, and I don’t I I don’t know what I think either to be honest. Um but if if part of their rationale is well um you know, we we’ll build this incrementality for another revenue stream outside the park, right? And and that’ll bring stuff in. So winning um while still good u put a competitive team out there year over year we don’t have to go for everything now like I I I don’t know if what I’m anything I’m saying is making sense right now because I haven’t like I said I haven’t spent a great deal of time thinking about this but from time to time it would pop in my head now if they if they think well it doesn’t matter what we put on the field because we have all this other stuff now around the park so we can make money regardless I think that might have been what they someone thought at one point. But if you look at this year, the lack of attendance and I and I while not being there, maybe some of you guys were this year, I’m willing to bet that Ballpark Village was a little less full or a lot less full this year. Um because that that team brings all those people in whether they’re in the park or right outside the park. And when that team’s not competitive, when they’re not entertaining, and we watch baseball because it entertains us, right? And when it’s not that, I don’t know how much they’re getting uh from that outer development. Um, so I don’t know, Pete. Listen, listen, I’ll put it to you this way. Winning cures all ailments. I mean, in St. Louis, we suffered with losing football with the Big Red. We suffered with losing football with the Rams. And yet people still loved it and they showed up for a while until the writing was on the wall that those teams were going to leave for greener pastures. Let’s not forget the early midish 90s when the baseball strike had happened and how badly that hurt baseball. And let’s not forget those were the Joe Tory years. That was after Whitey Herszog. It was after Whitey Ball and all the great success of the of the 80s. Then we get into that period. That was probably, I would say, the darkest time for Cardinals baseball because that’s when the Bush family was putting the team up for sale. Nothing was for sure and we did not know what was going to happen because Bush Stadium was aging out. It was built in 1966 at that point, Bush 2. And it was getting to a point where well frankly we didn’t even know if we were going to have a baseball team in a couple more years at that stage. Wasn’t there a threat to move across the river? There was and that was uh that was right around after the uh the Dwitz had bought it and uh in 1995 in 1994 and they were threatening in the late 90s to move them over to the Illinois side. Uh, and it was just laughable to be honest with you at the time looking back at it. But again, at the time we were really seriously worried. We were really concerned about, hey, our beloved Cardinals are going to go over to the east side and play in Illinois and they’re not Granite City Cardinals. Who wouldn’t want that, right? Edwardsville Cardinals. It just it never it never did take and and to and to to kind of play on that distraction portion with Ballpark Village and what is this Ballpark Village version 17 or what I can’t remember how many versions this has been at this point phases right I’m not sure yeah all their phases but the reality is is yes it has been a distraction yes it has affected onfield product it has absolutely you’re telling You’re telling me that you’re going to take hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars and dump it into a real estate program that you are financially responsible for the organizational success and instead of taking that money and putting it into that team either in player development or some other form and I know Don’s big on this too as well. you should have been investing there, but you were more worried about your real estate development plans because of the explosion of real estate values at the time and everything else that they were up to. So, yes, I do believe it was fundamentally a distraction for the organization. Okay. And I do like the how you referenced the um early 90s, right? Because that that was pretty bad brand of baseball to watch. It was really bad. Although Greg Jeff was kind of a cool first base that that Todd Zal, man, I mean, come on. Yeah, they traded him to the Cubs. I still can’t believe that they did that. But um you know, and then steroids saved baseball. Yes. I don’t And you know, I’m a Mark Magguire Mark. I’m the biggest Mark Maguire Mark there ever was. And that man and Sammy Sosa fundamentally bigger word for the Cubs fan up there watching. Well, I’m I’m telling you, it’s they saved baseball. I don’t care how people feel about it. Oh, they cheated. They did this and that and the rather had it not been for those two men doing what they did in the summer of 98. I don’t even know if baseball would even be here right now at this point. But they they literally saved baseball’s life. I think they accelerated the comeback for sure. Pete, you you and I have talked about this before. Um I don’t think baseball and we may need another one in 2028. So that’s right. We do have a Yeah, we do have a uh what? CBA post 2026. 2027. We’re probably going to lose that season. It ain’t looking good, boys. That’s a whole another show, though, right? Um all right. So, got to move on a little bit, but thanks for entertaining my uh my strange thought there about Ballpark Village being a uh distraction side derailing what the Cardinals need. I think for all of those things to work to their maximum effect that ownership would want or any investors would want, they have to fix what’s on the field or there are going to be fewer people going there to put their dollars into those other developments. So, um hopefully um I know that Billy Stixs, I call him what? BW the third. Um you know, he did say message received in terms of attendance. If fans were trying to send that message to them, they’ve received it. Um, I don’t know if it took them to the end of this year to get it or if they started figuring that out even last year. Um, but it it is shocking the attendance drop. Anyway, I don’t have that in here because it’s depressing to talk about. Although Pete Pete likes to see those empty seats with glee. Okay, rebuilding phase. So, this is a word they haven’t used. They haven’t used rebuild. Um, they won’t they still won’t use that. But I kind of think you most of you have alluded to it already and Pete you definitely have. I think they have to to some degree right and they have to do it with risk. I’m not saying stupid risk but they need to start taking some risks that this organization out of all the ones I follow are the most riskaverse that I’ve ever seen. Uh even in business and uh you can say well that’s smart but it’s also not exciting. Um, when they do trade for a big player, it is a known factor. Like they traded for Nolan Areronado because he didn’t have anything to prove. Neither did Paul Goldmid, neither did Scott Rolland back in the day, but I’m talking about moves like, you know, bringing in that pitcher that’s only looking for a year, two-year deal. Um, I just don’t see them doing enough like that. Uh, and and it was on um, uh, Derek Gould’s podcast last week. I listen to that every once in a while. He had mentioned uh Nathan Eavaldi as being one prime example of that. Like they could have short-term deal, a lot of dollars, sure, but they just don’t do that anymore. So, what do you guys think? Um what does this rebuild look like? What what is it going to look like in in the next two to three years, that window specifically? What do you think’s going to change? Or you can or you can answer, what would you like to see? Because I know none of us have a crystal ball, but what would you like to see? Don, I’ll start with you. Well, I think I I was kind of listening to uh uh Bernie Mikolas last doing a couple to his listening to a couple of his shows and I think one of the things that he was talking about in what this what’s the future of this club could be, you know, he was mentioning things um like, you know, and I I know a lot of people are wanting to see Marmal gone before the end of 26. Don’t think it’ll happen. Um, and you know, I think what you have seen so far in the minor leagues, which I uh just again on his show, he said that they already have been upgraded now to like sixth or ninth depending on which source you’re looking at with four with four players in the top 100. Um, you know, that’s a start and that’s where it has to start. I mean, like Derek made the comment about that player development and I think that’s also Hein Bloom’s strong suit in especially when you’re talking about arms and pitching which is has been I think our glaring weakness is we draft great kids and by the and they put up good numbers sometimes great numbers and the miners we bring them up and they you know, they can’t throw throw a ball through a paper bag, uh, for the most part. Now, there’s some exceptions. I think Garcifa is going to be good. I think McGrev is going to be good. I think those two are going to be heavily counted on. Um, as far as what else goes, like I said, I don’t think we’ve got a clear picture yet. Um, I know I can I can almost guarantee that the that the three top contracts are going to be shot, especially now since you’ve got Sunny Gray said he is willing and and open to a trade. Uh he made that uh before the season was over. He means he said that before the season was over. So I think he’s probably gone. What you get out of him, I don’t know. Uh but he’s probably also the one that’s going to get you the biggest return. I don’t see Aronado being very attracted to too many other teams, especially teams that may have a uh like that are like St. Lewis in terms of ballpark that are tough to hit the ball out of um because that’s always been his strength besides his defense and you’ve seen his defense kind of slide slightly. Mhm. Contrarus, I don’t see him sticking around. Oh, no. I I I don’t either. Too many young catchers. I don’t know why you would want to. Rodney, same question. Two two to three year window here. What are you hoping to see? What do you think you’ll see? Uh, I mean, if you’re asking what I’m hoping to see, I I would I would like a two-year contract on a Kyle Schwarber type guy. I mean, bring somebody bring somebody in that’s going to drive a 100 runs in, right? Like, I I don’t know. I’m all about like I I want to compete now, you know? I’m not I’m not super patient if you’re telling me that like you’re going to not be very good for two or three years. I I wantanna I want to I We’re the St. Louis Cardinals. We’re supposed to be in this in this race every single year, right? Like I’m I want to I you know I want to go get a big bopper. If I’m gonna go to a game and they’re not gonna be very good, I want my kids to see somebody that might hit the ball out of the ballpark twice, right? Like I don’t know. I I guess that’s what I’m looking at that there’s entertainment value in and bringing a guy like that in. Now, is it the right move for this franchise? Is it a smart move? I don’t know. But we’re fans. Like we’re not going to have all that answer. But do we do we want to see it? I do. I I do. I wanna I want to see a guy I want to see a cow rally type guy that you know I’m coming to ballpark and and and and and he might he might make history tonight. Um what will happen? I think I think Don said it pretty pretty good there. like we’re probably just going to develop some players and uh we’re going to get some young talent and whether that young talent comes through or not, it’s going to be the the uh Randall Gritick, the Steven Piscotti, the Jordan Walkers, like they may come through, they may not. I I think that’s what’s going to happen. Um but again, I’m coming in with this with a with an open mind on Bloom that he can develop these players, but uh that’s that’s my answer. I want to see a big Bopper. I I don’t think we’re gonna see it, Pete. You know, honestly, um I don’t think that Rodney’s entirely wrong. I don’t think it would be a terrible approach. You know, you look for those guys whose markets have collapsed, um who may be looking for that pillow contract. And and as Derek said, that’s not something that the Cardinals have traditionally done, but it wouldn’t be the worst thing to bring in that guy. And if he catches fire and the Cardinals are going nowhere this year, you get to trade him at the trade deadline and maybe you get a couple more prospects and you do it again next year and you sign that guy who who is going to entertain the fans. And if you do manage to catch Lightning in a bottle in a particular season, well then great, you’ve got that guy in the middle of your lineup who’s going to provide some excitement and who’s going to drive in some runs. But if it’s not working, you’re constantly moving the ball forward. Um, yeah, you know, I don’t think that you’re rolling out the bargain uh the bargain basement uh lineup and and rotation um just because you’re trying to build towards something. I mean, obviously you’re not the Pittsburgh Pirates. You want to put something out on the out on the field that people want to see and are entertained by. Um but I think that you can serve two masters with that approach. Derek, so this kind of hearkens me back to when they brought in Walt Jocky, uh, you know, into 95. Uh, his resume, the the late Walt Joy at this point, he had passed away. And, um, when they brought him in, he originally came out of the Oakland Athletics, formerly the Oakland Athletics farm system. He was the farm director. He was a development guy and he was doing some kind of stuff odd and in with the Colorado Rockies into 1994 whenever they brought him in. And it was that perfect yang and yang with him and Tony Larusa. Tony wanted all of these free agent guys. He wanted all of the, you know, the big boppers, the big power guys. some of these guys with what the boys were just talking about a minute ago with pillow contracts and things like that that could you know hit some pop and you know sell some tickets but Jockey was of the understanding hey it’s going to take me two years to build this so are they going to go more scorched earth and go hey we’re going to go Pittsburgh Pirates way we’re going to just put the crappiest crap out there we can just because it’s going to get us to that two-year mark or are they going to take the 1995, 96, 97,98 cardinal rule book of, hey, it’s going to take us three or four years to develop this farm system, get it back up on the wheels that was just decimated over the last 10 years and get this flow of solid, you know, B+, A minus, A type players in your organization to now that you can get them to that pinnacle where they’re ready for the major leagues instead of just throwing guys out haphazardly like they have done the last few years and the biggest issue is that and you know we were just saying it when you have a Jordan Walker and he’s you know he’s good Dylan Carlson you know he’s good okay Randy Rosea you know do we need to go down the list of players that either were formerly of the organization or so currently with the organization that struggled led, but they’ve went on to do better things. Carson Kelly’s had a decent career since he’s left the Cardinal organization. You’ve got other players that have left and have done fairly well for themselves. Now, why is that? Is that a coaching problem or is that something else I have a tendency to lean towards? It’s a fundamental difference in coaching philosophy from the minors to the majors. You have them that are teaching them how to play baseball down here, what to do. this is how you hit, this is how you field, and this is how you pitch. And then when you get to the big leagues, nope, forget about it. We’re going to do it completely different now. Everything that you’ve learned, forget about it. We’re going to start over from scratch. That’s what they got to get away from. That’s what they need to go back to. And until they do that, and it’s going to take Big Daddy Bloom a couple of years to be able to build this thing back. And he’s going to have to trade Sunny Gray. He’s going to have to trade these other players. in order to get prospects in return to build this farm system back up. This is not going to be fun and it’s not going to be easy. Now, there might still be some upside, but that’s where I think we’re at. So, all right, my turn. Um, nobody respects the studio, I tell you. Anyway, um, so my my my question asking everybody or asking myself really, can you do both can you do two things at once? Right. Can can they can they walk and chew gum because I think they can still put a competitive and this is the nebulous they they’ve been they’ve caught they’ve been caught in right like u and they put themselves in this place right we’re going to be competitive every year we’re going to compete so we can’t go through that real rebuild like we can’t go scorched earth so to speak when you guys mentioned that um but can they still do both things can they still improve their developmental system um because I think everybody universally agrees scouting is not something I I don’t think it’s broken for them. Um, but I think it’s beyond that, beyond just that draft pick, developing them all the way through, I think has been an issue. There’s been a lot more misses than hits. Um, and we can certainly go down the list later if you guys would like, but because there’s still a lot of question marks on on some current ones, too, but yeah, can they do both things at once? Uh, do you guys remember a signing like Lance Burkeman when they had him? And that was actually under the Mock Ura, right? But that’s what we’re not seeing. I think that’s that’s what we’re highlighting. That’s why uh signing a Kyle Schwarber, at least under Mo. Um didn’t seem realistic, right? Uh who didn’t love Lance Burkeman? Hated him when he was with the Astros. I loved him in 2011. He was he was soulless. Uh he didn’t feel the pressure in game six when they were down two runs. You could see it in his eyes. He just felt nothing. It was soulless. Um and and and I miss I miss players like that. bringing in a Larry Walker towards the end of his career. U those guys were great veterans to have around. Will Clark, my favorite player of all time, um brought him in at the tail end of his career, too. Never thought you’d see him in Cardinals red, right, after getting into a boxing match with Aussie Smith and Jose Okendo at second base, but th those are the things I miss. And I think they can do a little bit of that while rebuilding their system. Uh I I I think that’s doable. I don’t know how much time they have, but we’ve been mentioning him name. He’s going to be a topic here. But starting with uh Pete, how much time does he have to show progress? I’m not sure. I’m not totally certain what that progress needs to look like, but how long of a leash is this guy going to get before improvement is made from the fans or from the ownership? From the ownership. Uh I think the ownership will give him fans. I can answer your fan question. That will be in May. Yeah. Right. Uh, I think I think ownership gives him as much time as he, you know, determines as long as this initial contract is. And I don’t know, do we know how long his contract is, I think he has at least that much time. Um, because they picked him, right? They brought him in as an outside consultant and then they crowned him as the next guy before the current guy was even out the door. Um, so he’s going to have as much runway as he needs. Um it’s going to it’s kind of going to be like Theo was with the Cubs, you know, he came in in 2012 and they suffered through two really rough years, you know, and and partially through a third one. Um Rickettts wasn’t going to wasn’t going to tell him that, you know, we’ve had enough. Um because he was their pick, right? He’s him is not somebody that that the Dwitz inherited. Um, and I think that, you know, he clearly has their confidence. He’s going to be given all the time in the world to to make his vision become a reality. And if it takes five years, he’ll be allowed the five years to to uh, you know, to make it happen. Everybody agree with that? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I I think like Pete just said, the Dwitz picked Bloom, brought him in two years ago. I think they had this figured out two years ago what they were going to do. They already knew what they were going to do when they brought when they hired him. I think most fans Yeah, I think I think most of us fans who saw him be brought in from the outside kind of assumed the same thing was going to happen. So, it’s been You’re right. So, yeah. As long as as long as as long as he’s showing progress, he’ll get as much time as he needs. Ronnie, you got enough money. Wasn’t sure if you were shaking your head. Yes. No. Maybe. So, oh, no. I I agree. No, I agree with all those guys. I I don’t see I don’t see the Dwitz having a short leash with him by any means. I mean, we we we’ve seen we’ve seen how these last three years have played out. I I I would be hardressed to think that he he’s going to have a short leash and then then you know and I know we’re going to talk about Ali, but that he’s going to be some of the scapegoat, you know, initially. So when when is that when does that leash even start for him? Or is the first leash going to be Ali? I think that’s a big question as well. So I I I think he’s got five years comfortably that that he’s going to make this and and and you need to see progress during that time. Yep. I agree. I agree with that just about everything you guys said. Heard Ali’s name thrown out there a couple times. So, that was another topic I wanted to get to you guys on. Um, you know, he’s currently, I believe, in the final year of his contract. He was extended. I think before last year, um, so technically, I guess a lame duck. I don’t know if that’ll last going into the winter or spring training or if they’ll extend him further because there is a problem with having a lame duck manager, right? We saw it happen at Don Mattingley with the Dodgers. We’ve seen other other examples of very hard to lead that group when they know that your time there is likely limited. So I I I anticipate they’ll probably extend him. Now extending a manager and a player are two different things, right? You can extend a manager for 125 years and you can cut them loose in year two and you know it’s not that big of a loss, right? It’s not that big of a commitment. It’s not against your luxury tax limit or anything like that. But what do you guys think here? I I I don’t know. if a a change in manager right now is I look well first of all you get let me go around the room I don’t give my opinion not right now I told myself privately I wouldn’t I wouldn’t lead you guys down the down my my thought I’m not going to leave you breadcrumbs um because I want to hear from you guys Maul 2026 what do you guys think and I’ll start with you Derek gone gone before he’s he’s he’s already gone It’s just he’s just not officially gone. Uh the reality is is they need somebody to pin this on. Okay. And that’s what they’re going to do. They’ve brought Yadier Molina in. Yadier Molina is the apparent successor to Ali Marmal. It’s it’s a it’s a slam dunk. I mean anybody that has been watching this long enough uh with the social posts, with everything that they’ve been putting out there, they are telegraphing this. I mean, it’s like a Mike Tyson punch to the jaw. It couldn’t be any more prominent. That’s This is what they’re going to do. And I think that again, they’re going to let him they’re going to let him hang probably all season. Uh there might be to where they let him go at the All-Star break kind of thing. Um just to, you know, hey, clean out house. Let’s get it all done before the end of the season because we know we’re not going to make it anywhere kind of thing. and let’s get uh Yachty or Molina his opportunity to get his guys in here, get situated, get ready for the end of the season, get ready for the offseason, get ready for spring training. And I think that’s probably more than latter uh what’s going to end up happening with Ali Marmal. I think he’s gone. I think he’s a dead man walking. I think he’s already it’s over and and I think that’s where’s my dead man walking sound clip that I should have. But um Okay. Well, we did we didn’t invite Derek on for a uh a wishy-washy opinion, that’s for sure. So, he has one. What about uh what about you, Rodney Oyar Maul? I I I have less faith that that’s the case. And yeah, but first of all, are we sure that Yadier Molina has been brought in? Because I mean, I know there was talk about it, right? Like there was rumor. Has this has it become official? I I No, I I have not seen an official posting on Andy. Maybe you guys have. Yeah. No, that’s where I’m Yeah. No. And I And so we can bring up a lot of different ways how this is going to work with Yachti. Like number one, the elephant in the room is awkward, right? Like awkward for for Ali here. So like, yeah, if if Yachti’s brought in, Derek’s point is probably gonna happen. But I’m not so sure Yachti’s dying to come in here and do this. Like I I I I think we and it may not be us five, but we as Cardinal fans are like thinking that he wants to be manager more than maybe he does want to be manager. I mean, there’s a lot of things Yachti might want to do. What is he 40 years old or maybe not even that yet? So, I don’t know. I I’m not I have less faith that that u Ali’s gone. I I I think he’ll last through the year and I think they’ll talk extension. I really do. I They love him. I think Dits love him because he’ll do what they want him to do. Um yeah, if you you’re you’re absolutely right that fans will jump to that we’ll jump to that assumption. Oh, he was a great Cardinal. He’s he would love to come back. Um that that is not a guarantee. I don’t even know if it’s a good idea. He was a great player. He was a great onfield commander um quarterback, whatever you want to call him. like he he was he was that guy for them and the results were way different when he was healthy and in the in the lineup and catching versus when he when he wasn’t. You just go look it up. Um but I’m I’m not sold on that completely either. So but before I Yeah, I mean the we’ve heard this before like the best players aren’t always the best leaders. We we know this, right? as when you get to coaching and managing. And you know, I know it’s cliche and there’s a lot of examples of this, the Magic Johnson’s, the Larry Birds and basketball more than baseball. But I I just I’m not sure either. I’m not sure either. And and I think a lot of fans think it’s going to happen more than it than it actually will. Um Barry Bond’s shitty hitting coach, one of the best hitters that ever lived. Right. Not good at all. Right. Pete. Uh personally, I think Ali sticks around until Hine thinks that he has his team. It’s a cheap easy way to to keep things consistent and to not rock the boat. And if the dwits do like like him, then you keep him in that seat. But once him thinks, okay, now I have my team, he’s gone. And whether that comes during the off season, two months into the 2027 season, whenever it is, I see him making the same move that the Cubs made when they brought in Joe Madden and that they made when they brought in Craig Council, right? Oh, we we we love uh Renteria. We love Joe uh or or we love uh uh David Ross, but we can get our hands on a better manager. So, we will. Yeah. Um but I was gonna I’m glad you went there and instead of letting me ask you why do you have a a real world example of of this happening somewhere? I’ve got two. Wanted to lead you into it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, you did. You did bring up two. It has happened twice. So, I I I I feel like that’s if I had to guess on what how that’s going to take place, that’s probably the lane I’m choosing. But Don, saved you for last on this one. I I kind of see it both ways. I can see like Derek’s saying, you know, the wait till after the see what they do in the off season, maybe gone by the before the season starts, maybe gone at mid-season. I tend to think he will hang around uh all season. Just again talk listening to what uh Bernie Mikolas was talking about that he and Bloom now have a relationship uh so to speak. Um so I think he’ll give him that year to see what he can do um with the players and the and the system that that Bloom wants to bring in. But I’m also like Pete. uh as soon as Bloom thinks he’s got what he needs player-wise and systemwise, he’ll get his manager that he wants. Whether that’s when now whether that is Molina or not, that’s another story. Yeah. Yep. That’s a good point. Um speaking of managers, I mean there’s always another option if you can bring him out of retirement and that would be Mike Schult, right? Um guys, what do you think about this one? Um, Mike Shel retiring, stepping away from San Diego only to learn that uh he left kind of in the same way that uh I mean his choice of course, but eerily similar um to his departure with the Cardinals from if we believe what what has been reported on this. He’s got uh he’s got a little temper, right? You’d never know that guy in the glasses. um you know who who I I’ve always said that he he buys every extra product protection he can buy whenever he buys a speaker at Best Buy. That’s what he seems like. You know that guy will buy all the insurance. How does this land on you? Does it change your change your perspective? Because it certainly did for me on how Shil left the Cardinals given what we know about why and how he left uh San Diego. How’s that changed for you guys? Rodney, I’ll start with you. Yeah. No, I’ll me. Yeah. I mean, I I’ll start. Yeah. I mean, it definitely changed. I don’t I wasn’t one that, you know, I know there’s been a lot that are like, “Oh, they let Sh go a successful manager.” Yeah. Like, yeah, he was successful. Did he get him over the hump that, you know, we as fans want? Not necessarily, right? Like, got him there. And so, there was a lot of bashing about letting him go. I wasn’t really part of that. But now it is like looking back on it, it’s like, okay, maybe Mo did know what kind of what needed to happen here because there’s there’s obviously something, you know, whatever he did, but there’s a Yeah, you’re right. Schultz’s got a little bit of an issue. He’s got a temper issue. He’s got a uh a more of a leader, I’m the leader, nobody else’s type mentality. And that you can’t do that. You can’t do that, especially in this society in 2025. 20 years ago, maybe that would have worked, right? Like you could have probably found your way through it had you won 90 games every year, but now it just doesn’t work, right? Like everything you do, everything you say will will be out there and will be held against you. So it just doesn’t work anymore. That type of manager does not work. Derek, you know, I going back to what we were talking about before, it it lends into this yacht or Molina. Everybody forgets the big dust up they had and how everything got real ugly in the clubhouse between all of them. And I’ve never forgotten that. And I remember when he was let go and I thought, man, that’s got to have something to do with it. He’s lost the clubhouse. He’s clearly lost one of the most wellrespected uh probably one of the greatest catchers this organization has ever had. And when that happens, I have a tendency to scratch my head. But then now these reports come out of San Diego that it was uh you know the leader of men type of situation and uh here we go again. Uh losing the clubhouse, losing the veteran uh leadership. Uh so I think that it’s clear that the writing was on the wall then. Uh it’s just become more prominent now, right? Uh yeah, I don’t remember the dust up uh with Molina, but if you recall 2021, they did they did make it to the playoffs that year. Um I think they survi they lasted a round, I believe. Um but it was a little bit of a mirage that season. Remember, they won like what 17 games in a row. I I I think uh it was either span of August, September, and they and they put themselves in a in a better position. But that team wasn’t that great that year either. um uh they just went on a a heater at the end of the end of the year and got themselves in playoff position, but it didn’t last very long. But he was he was like shortly after. Um but I I I got to say I feel like I don’t give Mo a lot of credit for a lot of things. I say I give him a lot of credit for this one because he didn’t say anything publicly about it other than he called it philosophical differences. Like he didn’t throw he didn’t throw Schult under the bus. He knew Schult probably wanted to continue managing. Um, and if those facts were out there, it would it would have been a more difficult time for him probably to land a job. So, um, I’ll give Mo a little bit of credit there as he as he leaves the organization. I think, uh, I didn’t at first. I thought, wow, you know, Schultz’s the baseball guy. He’s the last and, you know, last uh, you know, person that kind of lived to the George Kleps and the way that baseball should be played. And that’s about doing the little things, right? Right. That’s actually the Cardinal way, not whatever the internet has turned it into now. Um, but that was Cardinal way of playing. Um, so yeah, Mo deserves some credit for I I take taking the full full punch for that whole situation. Um, Pete, we talked about it on our show. I think I know your thoughts on this one. I we we got a kick out of it. Um, because what Mike Schultz looks like on camera sure as hell isn’t what he’s like in the clubhouse, evidently. So, um, but if you want to rehash what you had said about him, go ahead. Well, I mean, I think I’ I’d refer people to our episode this past week for a more wholesome uh exploration of my thoughts on it, but uh but I I loved it. I loved this thought that, you know, here was this mildmannered guy that we all thought was, you know, yeah, you could get under his skin every once in a while and he would lose his [ __ ] Uh but for the most part, you know, he was just he was he was Mr. Uh he was Mr. Medium, right? And clearly clearly he’s not. Um and yeah, I was honestly I was kind of excited by the revelation that uh that Mike Schil is uh is a bit of a hothead. Um strange new respect, I think, is the uh is the phrase. Strange new respect. I like that. Uh, Don, Mike Schult was not on the bingo card for tonight, but since that news happened, it’s something that happened after we kind of thought we were going to have this round table. I’ll guess I’ll get your thoughts on Mike Schult, too. Thinking he wasn’t your favorite manager, but you thought he was pretty good. When the for the time he was here and what he got thrown into, I think he did he did a pretty pretty good job really. Um, you know, we don’t know all that went on in the clubhouse here or San Diego. All we get is the reports and that could be sour grapes. I don’t know. Does it change my feeling on him and how he left St. Louis? Not not really. But obviously there’s a there’s a factor it’s got to play into it. But uh you know I’m I’m kind of neutral on it, per se. No, I see the fun in it. That’s why I loved it. Um and I’ve had my own issues with San Diego and it’s irrational. I’m not even going to get into it here, but u it isn’t rational at all. Um, rule rule five, man. They’re masters at that one. All right, guys. So, uh, we’re getting up close to an hour here. So, I want to go switch gears a little bit and talk about some of the players we have. Um, I’m talking players like Nolan Gorman, Jordan Walker, you know, these other players that they’ve developed, kind of developed, maybe not well. Um, you see them uh staying or going? And is this the kind of thing that the organization needs to change its change its position on? And I’ll point to a couple players like somebody brought up Gritic earlier. I think that was an excellent example. You know, uh O’Neal like holding on to these guys just too long when it’s it’s pretty clear and it’s clear to most of the fan base, too. Of course, it’s not clear to me these days because I muted every Cardinals fan on X as I do annually uh when the season’s over because I don’t I can only take so much. Um, but what players are are you looking at now that are on the current roster? You see him as uh short term or or are they in for the long haul? And I’ll start with uh let’s just start with Nolan Gorman. Derek, Nolan Gorman, I still see an upside there. I still see uh I still see more power. I think I see him as a 40 home run, you know, 35. He’s kind of in that kind of Jim Edmonds, Matt Holiday range, I think, as far as a hitter is concerned. I think he’s plateaued defensively. I just don’t really think you’re going to get much more out of him in that department, but I definitely think there’s more to the bat in that department for him. Uh, with Gorman, uh, especially with right-handed pitching, he just tease off on right-handed pitching. Um, his contact numbers are a little bit down on right-handed pitching. Contact numbers a little bit up, I believe, on left. Uh, but he definitely swings more to contact with a left-handed pitcher. So, I would see developmental wise more of an uptick in power, get to that kind of 3540 home run range. Uh, as long as he gets consistent at bats, he stays healthy. I think that’s where he’s going to be at. Rodney, what about you, Nolan Gorman? Um, if I had it my way, I would send him out. Uh I I I don’t I don’t know is if we’re gonna get the best out of Nolan Gorman and what and and if and if this is what Nolan Gorman is he’s not he’s not going to be on a championship team here right like I so I but everything you know all these answers come with a pride right like okay you can’t just get rid of him you can’t just release him you can’t trade him for nothing so you know obviously that plays a factor but I am more than okay getting rid of almost everybody on this roster outside of about three to five guys. Now, that’s not going to happen. Uh but I’m on the side of Nolan Gorman can go and I would be just fine with it. Pete, don’t know if you have a strong opinion on this one, but uh Nolan Gorman’s on your roster and we have a couple years to look at now. It’s not like we have a small sample size anymore. Like we got a pretty decent one. Nolan Gorman, from what I’ve seen, I think that he’s a serviceable major leager, but I agree with Rodney. I don’t think that he’s going to be I don’t think he’s going to be your your second baseman or your third baseman on your next Cardinals Championship squad. Um or that or I should say the next ch the next Cardinal squad that makes a deep run into the playoffs. Let’s not let’s not set the the the threshold at the championship. Um and and I think that this goes beyond Norolyn Gorman and just just kind of is my answer for everybody that you’re going to ask about. The one thing that I think that the Cardinal, and we’ve talked about this a lot, Ron, the one thing that I need think the Cardinals radically need to improve on in the years ahead under High and Bloom is their internal self scouting, right? Their assessment of players because it’s something that they’ve missed on again and again and again over the last decade. Um, and it’s guys like Nolan Gorman, well, not Nolan Gorman because he’s at least been serviceable and has stuck. Um, but guys like Jordan Walker, Rose Arena, Gritic, all those guys who they either got it right on or they got it wrong on. And most of the time they got it wrong. Don, you perked up there. I I’m gonna agree with Derek. I think I’m sorry. You all right? Am I here? Yep. We hear you. I You guys are kind of freezing up on me, so I don’t know. Okay. Okay. Uh I’m kind of agree with Derek. I think that um you know I I do see still an upside in Gorman, but I’m a little bit different in the fact that I think if he’s he’s got maybe this year to get it turned to turn that corner and and show the cuz how many how long do we say O’Neal still has potential? O’Neal still has potential. Uh we don’t want to get locked into that with Gorman. Um, I think he’s got he’s got about a half a year to get it under control and show progress. Otherwise, he’s gone at the deadline. Okay. Um, I I I would I I think he’s he’s he’s on the roster at the beginning of this year. Um, because I’m not sure what they’re going to get from him. He didn’t uh you know, I I’d say he did he didn’t get to put in a full season last year. So, I think whatever you’re going to get for him right now is extremely low. Um, but I agree also. That’s that’s that’s the other knock on him is his health. Yeah. Yeah. True. I mean, he hasn’t he hasn’t played a 140 game season yet, but I still think the sample size is large enough if you put it all together, we kind of know what we’re getting in him. And uh, Jean on the chat did mention no improvement since day one. I have to agree with that. Like, he’s not substantially better than what he was in his rookie year. He’s still not a very good contact guy. um does have pop, but when he’s off, he’s off, right? And um I I haven’t seen enough and I don’t think I’m going to uh but I also don’t think they’re going to be able to maybe they will, maybe they’ll surprise us. Maybe it’ll be part of a package deal or something, but um I think in 2026 he probably sees another uh he he sees another uniform in 2026. Um it it won’t be with the Cardinals organization. Um Jordan Walker, I’m I’m assuming I’m going to hear a little bit of the same thing here, but he’s a different player. um just as high expectations. I think we’ve seen a couple years of him now. It hasn’t been great. Um but let’s go in reverse order here, Don. With uh Jordan Walker, I think with Jordan Walker, there’s two two reasons why I say he gets a little bit more of an extension with me. First of which is they screwed this kid up from day one when they brought him up. They had him screwed up from day one. Um, and it’s taken him this long. I mean, because they they make him switch positions, then they bring him to the major. Oh, but you’re not hitting home runs hard enough, so we’re going to send you down so you can increase it. Yeah. Leave the kid alone. He was he was his exit velocity, his line drives, the home runs are going to come eventually. Let the kid get comfortable up here. They didn’t do that. Um I think he’s I don’t I don’t think he’s Yeah, he’s still what 20 23 23 23 24 Yeah, he to me to me I’ve got I’ve got him in for another at least another year or another couple years with some proper development. And I did see something and I’ll I’ll again refer to Bernie Malos. Start him at Memphis this year. Don’t bring him up at the big club. Get him at Memphis. Get his head screwed on, right? get his development right, then bring him back up, and then I think you gota then to think he got a player for at least three three or four more years. Well, I don’t know. Um, starting him off in Memphis this year sounds like could have the reverse effect. I I don’t I don’t disagree that. Um, hey, can he get maybe a little bit better development, less pressure in Memphis, but I think if you if he starts off there after spending basically two full seasons with the big club, I I don’t know how that’s going to help him. I I don’t see that. But, um, I I think he’s young enough where he he’ll he can adjust. He’s proved he’s got a maturity beyond his age. I think he’ll be able to deal with it if if they present it to him correctly. Well, the other question I was going to have is who are you going to play out in right field now that’s really going to perform substantially better? And I that’s the other part of it I struggle with. So, I think he starts the year off in St. Louis. Um, and I I to me personally, just my my opinion is that’s the best thing for him. like there’s going to be no pressure that you’re going to be sent back down, but you’re going to stay here and you’re going to run we’re going to run you out there every day and you’re either going to figure it out or we’ll we’ll we’ll find out this season if you if if you can find that turning point if you can figure it out that we’ll look for that light bulb to go off in your head and if we don’t see it in 2026, then I think we call it what it is. Um that that’s just how I feel about it. Rodney. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I said with no Gorman, I’m willing for anybody to go, but I do have probably a a longer leash for Walker than I do Gorman here. Um, but I mean, we’re all in the same boat. Like, we we just need to see him be better. And so, I’m okay keeping Jordan Walker. Uh, but if you were able to find something, bye-bye Jordan, right? Like, and that goes for everybody. And that’s pretty common, pretty easy answer. But, uh, I I do have a longer leash with him than I do know Gorman. What about you, Pete? He is he is still pretty young and I and I agree with you. The way they handled him when they brought him up was it it was it was awful. Um but go ahead. He uh I’m going to disagree with you guys. Uh if I’m bloom I call him into my office and I say Jordan, we uh this organization has not done you any favors and I can’t imagine that the trust on your end is very high because we have yanked you around for the last three years. and I’m going to do you a favor and I’m gonna shop you and I’m going to send you to a different one because I think that a change of scenery is what you need. I don’t think that you’re going to reach your potential here because I don’t know that you’re ever going to trust this organization. Um, and I’d be very upfront with him on that. And it’s not that we’ve lost faith in you. I think you’re going to be a great hitter. I just don’t think that you’re going to reach your full potential somewhere else. And so I think it’s going to benefit both the organization and you if you go somewhere else and let him get a fresh start with another organization and and be upfront with it, not only with him, but also with Cardinals fans and with the media. We’re giving Jordan a new a new uh a new start because we haven’t done right by him and he deserves better. See, let me clear this up for you folks. Pete just wants to hear a Cardinals official say that out loud. I mean, like, so he it might be the most responsible thing, but Pete’s doing it from an angle that he’s trying to he’s cloaking it here. He just wants to hear No, honestly, honestly, selfishly, please keep him and have him suck in right field for another year. Please, right, have him be lost and not know what his swing is supposed to be. But honestly, like this is from a from an honest perspective, he deserves another shot and it’s not with the Cardinals organization. I don’t think he’s ever going to reach his full potential in St. Louis. And I think we’ve stated that on our show a few times, right? Yep. Uh Derek, I you know, frankly, I think you can go both ways. I still say you keep him and here’s the reason why. If you look at his splits and really dig down into the data of what he did last year early on in games when he got behind in counts um whenever he was trying to do the whole launch angle thing which is where they are pushing a lot of these players to get in the major leagues. You know you want to elevate the ball, you want to push it up, you know you want to pull it, you want to do this. The reality is if you go and you look at the data on the splits and you look at where he was at, when he’s ahead in the count, he is smashing the ball. Whenever he’s got a guy on uh on third, he’s not doing that great. Runners in second and third, first and third, he’s not doing good. But when the bases are loaded, he’s knocking the cover off of the ball. when he’s got uh got him in scoring position, he’s just eh, you know, he’s kind of okay. But when he’s using the fundamentals, because obviously humans are creatures of habit, and when we learn something, it’s programmed into our brain. It’s a natural uh natural reactionary response that we have. And he’s going back to, hey, I’ve always learned, square up, close my stance, hit the ball solid and clean, and push it, push it to an open spot, pull it to an open spot. And in the data on the splits, it shows that it shows where he’s putting the ball, what his batting averages are, what his slugging, OPS, everything. And I think that because, you know, again, it’s been brought up in this conversation, they’ve screwed with his brain to a point to where he thinks, I’ve got to go up here and I’ve got to hit this launch angle early in the game. But he knows when the game’s tight and we got to score a run and I got to fall back on the fundamentals that I was taught in minor league baseball and in high school, this kid’s still 23. He’s 23 years old. I would even go with the rest of the boys, you know, against the Gorman thing and say, you know, hey, yeah, I mean, it could go either way. He’s 25, soon to be 26, but this this guy’s still a kid and he’s still got so much more ahead of him. And I think that’s really what we need to look at. That’s why that’s ultimately why I give him more time is because he’s so young. Um, but Gorman, I think we know what what Gorman is, right? Um, that again, just my opinion, but um, okay. Well, I know there’s a there’s more players we could definitely go through, but I know that we’re up on an hour here. I don’t want to take everybody’s time up and run too late tonight, but um so I don’t really have a a final question, but it’s just more of of thoughts in general, right? Like this off seasonason is going to be a very in a lot of ways the off seasonason is going to be more exciting than in season uh this year. Uh 2025, 2024. I mean, these these are forgettable years, right? like we probably won’t remember much about them. Um the only thing we the thing we’ll remember about 2025 is that was Mo’s last year, you know, if we could fast forward a decade. We’re not going to remember it for much else. Uh in 2024, we’re not either. 2023 we’ll remember because that’s the year they really fell off the cliff, right? They sucked. It was a disaster. Um so, okay, this winter, what kind of tone do you think um will be set, if any? Start with you, Don. What what do you what do you what do you think you’re going to see from the organization in the offseason? A bunch of wholesale changes. I think you’re gonna go ahead. Well, I I don’t You’re not going to see whole You’re not going to see wholesale changes. Um you are going to see him shop, but I think they’re going to actually start shopping more for what they need instead of getting settling for what they can get. I think that’s always been Mo’s problem was he’s waited too long to pull triggers on stuff. I think Hine when he’s gonna have deals or he’s pulled him way too early, huh? He’s he’s Well, he’s and he’s he’s not a not of both ways, but but I’m talking like on free agents and stuff, he’s waited way too late a lot of times to pull the trigger on guys. Uh I think you’re if it’s going to be free agents that Bloom is going to go with, he’s going to get those guys early. He’s not going to wait and get boxed into taking the C the C option when he had A and B still available. I don’t think you’re going to see him as as milk toast. No. Um, as for the lineup coming in, it’s going to be it’s gonna Yeah. As far as the lineup coming in, I think you’re going to see the pretty much what you saw last year with whatever additions he can make that will be beneficial to the team. Hopefully, it’s in pitching. Rodney? Yeah. I mean, I think you’ll see I think you’ll see a little bit different team. Um, what that means, I don’t know. like I don’t know who he’s going to be going after. I I do think you’ll see some changes because I think he will want to show some progress like whether it is actual real progress or not, you know, I think I think he’s smart enough to realize, hey, they are, you know, they being the fans, they are a little uh uptight about this team. Let’s let’s make some changes whether it’s good or bad. I I think there will be some changes and the pitching will have to be different, Don. I mean, we got to it’s got to be different. So, you’ll see a different rotation and I I think you’ll see two or three new lineup members. I I who they’re going to be I think that’s a better question for later in the in the uh probably more winter, but I think you’ll see some changes. Derek, I think you’re going to see changes. I I think that you’re not going to see the uh bargain bend basement dealing that a lot of times you saw from Mosa over the last few years. I do think they go out and they probably pick up a couple of pitchers. I think they’re going to pick up a couple of relievers. Um whether it’s via trade or free agency or something of that ilk. Uh but they’re not I want to I want to preface this. They are not going to sign players that have qualifying offers. So if you look at the sheets in free agency, they will not be picking up players that have qualifying offers against them because that means you’re going to have to give up draft capital. that’s the one thing they don’t want to do. So, I would say you’re probably looking at guys that are that kind of C++ to B minus tier range because of how much money they’re going to call for on a contract based off where they’re going to be at in their service years. So, I would say yes. I think you’re going to be pitching picking up pitching. I think you’re going to be picking up relievers, a couple of relievers, maybe three. I think you’re going to pick up a couple of starting pitchers because I don’t think that the starting pitchers that you have are ready and we’ve seen from the current rotation and what we have in depth in the farm system and coming up from AAA. It’s just not there. You can’t be running guys out there that are going, you know, sub five erra, north of five erra that their whip is, you know, out through the roof. You know, you just can’t do that. And so you got to get these guys that are going five, six innings plus and they’ve got to be having a sub4 erra. That’s where you need to be. And I think that’s where they go. Pete, on to you. You cannot use the term whip. I Well, I was going to use it in another context, but since you said I I can’t. Uh no, I think uh I think all phone lines are open and operators are standing by to take your call. So uh and and creative offers will be considered. Um, I think that you probably will see free agents signed, but I think with the uncertainty that’s coming with the uh with the CBA negotiations, I don’t think that you’re going to see many, if any, uh, contracts signed that go beyond a year, unless they are heavily laden with club options, uh, ending after 2026. Um because I just don’t see and I don’t think this is unique to the Cardinals. Uh I think most teams are not going to extend themselves long term with the player unless they are convinced that that player is going to be able to make an impact with them and that they are committing that kind of money um to that player over the long term. I don’t think you’re going to see a lot of teams taking a shot uh you know with you know Okay. Yeah, we’ll go ahead. we’ll we’ll give this guy a 10-year contract. Um, which has been standard operating procedure over the last several years because that’s what it’s taken to nail down a free agent. I don’t think we’re going to see that this off season. Um, and I certainly don’t think that we’re going to see the Cardinals doing that. Uh, and similarly, I think that you’re going to see you’re going to see and hear pretty much every name is available. Even though Wilson Contrera said he wants to stay in St. Louis, Wilson’s on on the trade block. You’re not going to get much for Aronado, but Aronado’s there. And you’re also going to see it, I think, all the way down, too, right? Because there are some team out there that would love to get one of the young guys who came up through the Cardinal system and just hasn’t hit in the majors and maybe they can hit a bargain with a guy as a change. Trade for their next outfield all-star. Yeah, why not? Why not go to St. Louis for that? Um, speaking of free agents, we’re about off of here, guys, but a couple things we didn’t get to, but maybe maybe as you do your shows, u later in the week or the week following. Um, you know, a couple things of talking about free agents. I know in the chat that is out there on the Facebook group, there’s been some colorful conversation around Cardinals and why don’t why they don’t get this guy or that guy. And I saw Bryce Harper’s name thrown around out there and I I kind of laugh at that stuff because I’m like, it’s a two-way street. Just because you’re the Cardinals and you have the money to spend on a contract does not mean that player wants to come there. Um and I go back to the Bryce Harper example. I don’t think there was any chance in hell um that St. Louis was going to finish that race on top and and retain Bryce Harper. I I don’t think it was possible. I laugh when people mention stuff like that because like they don’t they that’s not the way they did it. The Cardinals always did it by trading for the guy, getting him in getting him into the organization, seeing full stands and competitive baseball, and that was their formula for for keeping guys. And and I don’t think that’s going to change anytime soon. So, uh I don’t I don’t usually involve myself in those kind of chats back and forth. We’re talking about free agencies, free agents, especially like A-listers. This is they’re not going to do that on the open market. They’ve never won anything. I point examples all the way back to like Kevin Brown when he was a hot free agent. Mike Hampton like they they never win these battles because somebody’s always willing to swoop in at the last minute and throw stupid money and that’s all it takes. Uh I look what Boston paid for when they pulled the rug out from under them on David Price. Um Cardinals just weren’t going to go that high. So this not a thing. Pete, we’ve talked about that a thousand times. This is not going to happen. U didn’t get to that tonight, but that’s okay. Um but since I’ve kept you guys on here for over an hour now, I’ll go ahead and run through. Um Rodney, you want to tell everybody on here about your show, where they can find you and Tim? Yeah. So, I I run this the my Tim and I are the stupidest sports show on earth. Yes. It sounds stupid and it is. And that’s what we are here for to kind of be the uh the quote unquote stupid sports fans that uh just talk sports. Like we’re not bringing a bunch of a bunch of nerd numbers at you. We’re talking sports and and and bringing it pretty pretty honest to you. So, you can find us at that Twitter account. No w on the end. stupid sports show. S H O at the end on on Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it. Uh I am also on there personally. Uh my last name K Nu Pel R O D N E Y. And uh we’re on Tuesdays and Tuesday night at 900 PM and Friday at 8 a.m. So would love to have you guys join us. Excellent. Uncle Don. Oh, thanks. Uh, no. I, uh, yeah, you can find me on Twitter, uh, or X, whatever the hell they call it these days, TSOTBGCS. Uh, I have two podcasts. I have Talking Sports with Uncle Don, and then I have the NCAA Report with uh, I do with Russ Robinson. Uh, kind of alternate those, one week, one, one week, the other. And then you can also find me, if you’re an Alii fan, you can find me in the Champagne Room. I’m starting, I’m doing some writing for those guys as well. I can’t say it. Uh Derek, you’re next. Well, you know, per usual, you can find me in the dusty, grungy halls of X, uh Derek Kingings Sports, you know, over on Facebook, Gateway, uh Gateway Sports, and uh obviously Gatewayports.net. Uh go and check it out that website and everything we got going on over there. You know, I’m always kind of popping in on shows and I always do special edition stuff. So, you just never know where you’re going to catch me. U I’ve taken a little bit of hiatus on my show uh over the last few months just for retooling and you know, a lot of other different reasons obviously, but uh you know, we’re going to be getting back into it. We’re going to be doing some regular programming and stuff like that. But, uh that’s where you can find me on the socials and on the website and everywhere else in between. Just keep your eyes open. And before you go, Pete, and you’ve got this all memorized, so I want you to do it exactly like you do ours. Um, Arlington has been active on the chat in here. I just pulled the chat window up, so apologize, Arlington. I would have probably thrown some of these questions at the panel here, but I just opened it up and just saw this, but I’m already at the tail end. So, we’ll get you next time. We’ll have to do a part two because there’s still a lot of other stuff I would have liked to have gotten to, but we’re not going to be able to do it tonight. So, Pete, just to be clear, yeah, you want me to do it like I do it for the show? Uh, maybe not. All right, too late. You already said it. If you enjoyed this chaos, or if you just enjoy the sound of our voices, you can leave a comment, peck or slap that subscribe button, drop a fivestar review, and tell literally everyone you know. You can catch Team Arrivals podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, and everywhere else podcast hide. And you can watch us live every week on X, Rumble, Facebook, and YouTube. And we’ve made it really simple for you. Just look for team of rivals pod and you’ll find us everywhere. That deserves an applause. He is he is top of the class at the semi-pro intro outro. He’s got really really sharp over the years and AI has only helped. Um he’s open about that. Don’t worry about he’s not wrong. He’s AI. All right, guys. Hey, thank you so much for the time tonight. Again, as Derek said, you can uh check out everything Gateway Sports has to offer. Just go to gatewaysports.net. You can find them by name with an underscore behind it out there on X, Instagram, and Facebook. You can find me. Just look for my name. Crying out loud. It’s out there. U I’m on X, Instagram, Facebook. Love to have you all follow me. Um but you know what? We’ll have to do it again. We’ll have to do a part two. There was still other stuff to get to. Maybe we’ll uh get some extra members on here cuz I know that there if there’s one thing I’ve noticed on the little chat room is there’s no shortage of opinions on Cardinals baseball on that thing. So uh would love to hear from some of the other guys, maybe we can round them up next time we get together and do this. But you guys have a uh have a good evening and uh we’ll talk to everybody else very soon. Love you all so much. Bye-bye everyone. Good night everybody. See you.

Pete joined Ron and the Gateway Sports crew for a no-spin, big-picture look at the Cardinals’ decline — and what it’ll take to fix it.

Alongside Derek King, Rodney Knuppel, and Don Glenn, the group digs into how the franchise lost its edge, how long this “rebuild” might actually take, and whether “The Cardinal Way” still means what it used to.

Highlights:
⚾️ Ownership priorities and Ballpark Village vs. baseball ops
🧠 Chaim Bloom’s runway for results
🧢 Oli Marmol’s future as a lame-duck manager
📉 The drop in fan confidence and attendance
🔮 What it’ll take to make the Cardinals contenders again

🎙️ Originally streamed live with Gateway Sports (@GatewaySports_) on October 19, 2025.

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