I’ve never been super convinced by this – mainly because pockets tend to look like this rather than a solid 6 feet high wall. But I’m not here to argue about whether or not it’s actually true. I’m just curious if the same thing is/was said about other QBs who are on the shorter side.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen it said about Bryce Young (although tbf I don’t think I’ve ever sought out a conversation about him) and I can’t remember it ever being brought up about Russel Wilson or Brees. For any of the older folk here, was this a common point against Doug Flutie? I didn’t start following football until a couple years after he had already retired.
Or to ask something slightly different, was there anything specific those QBs (or their teams) did to counteract poor visibility?
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Kyler is really the only one I’ve ever noticed who obviously struggles because of his height.
I have heard it said about Bryce Young as well. No idea how much water it holds.
I think it’s more that he doesn’t go through all his progressions. He checks his first one or two then it’s panic ball
I’m not saying it’s true or not. I don’t think it’s as black and white as people think. But I do think people repeat stuff they read without actually knowing for sure.
He never throws the ball on a rope down field it’s always lobbed down field
The 10th circle of Hell is Cardinal fandom.
I can tell you for certain it was brought up about Brees a lot and it was brought up pre draft about Bryce and likely after too although Bryce never had the hype around him that Kyler had so likely there were other things to talk about in regard to Bryce.
It was
Wilson may have been the only one it wasn’t mentioned with but that’s more because he had turnstiles not an O-line.
I really don’t think it is the height. I think it is clear that Kyler values not getting hit over all else. That’s why he doesn’t seem to see the field, I believe. Bummer, I really have rooted for him, but his time is coming to an end here.
Murray’s issue is easy to misidentify as being short because his core issue imo is he doesn’t go through his progressions. If his first option isn’t available he goes to his check down or scrambles pretty much *every* time. This is the same result as what someone who can’t see down field would do but in Murray’s case it’s not because of his height.
Failure to go through his progressions has been a consistent issue during Murray’s time in the NFL. Early on it was somewhat masked by having good WR1’s. With a weaker o line and defense scheming against the rollout, his issues are becoming more apparent.
This is also why Brisset looks so much better and why the offensive scheme appears better with Brisset. Because Brisset actually goes through his progressions. This is why receivers who Murray hasn’t targeted once suddenly look like viable options. They’ve always been decent options, Murray just doesn’t throw to them.
40+ guy here. It was absolutely said of Flutie, as well as Wilson. Brees less so, because Brees is actually close to the height he was listed at.
It’s not just the vision. You have to physically get the ball over or around the DTs. I have a buddy who was a fringe NFL DT (as in he got a few games but was mostly on practice squads). He’s 6’4” with almost comically long arms and can still dunk easily at age 42. It doesn’t matter if you can see a receiver running a 10 yard cross if you’re 5’8” and there’s a dude like that in front of you who can step into your passing lanes. The geometry of the pass is just so much harder than if the QB is 6’3”.
It’s ridiculous, Drew Brees and Baker Mayfield are also short (5’11”) and don’t have this issue. Kyler doesn’t stay patient with his progressions. He’s played with some terrible OLines so his internal clock is likely very quick. Look how many almost instant sacks Brissett took last week. Kyler would be getting killed for giving up those sacks, especially when we know he can evade them.
You don’t throw for 20k yards in the NFL if you can’t see.
I think, though, that it is tougher for shorter QBs to “watch” their receivers. The way Brees managed to be effective was by throwing with god-tier anticipation and accuracy. He was throwing to where he expected his receivers to be, not where he saw them at. Russ was effective in Seattle because their run game allowed him to pass out of play action *a lot*. And in general, Russ would take deep, deep drops in order to give himself room in the pocket.
So while their height was a detriment, those guys found ways to mitigate it. Kyler’s played almost exclusively out of shotgun his entire competitive football career going back to high school. And it was effective at the amateur level because the difference in athletic talent disparity was *so* significant that you can run simplified offenses.
Kliff tried to make a simplified, shotgun-based offense work in AZ for Kyler but the issue was that it was too simple for the NFL. Once they caught wind of how to defend it, it basically killed Kliff’s tenure here. There just wasn’t enough sophistication in the offense to overcome when you couldn’t out-talent the other team.
Team rush Kyler differently than other QBs in order to try to limit the effectiveness of his running ability. They exploit the fact that he gets antsy in the pocket and wants to rush through his progressions. He wants to play a simplified offense that demonstrably doesn’t work well in the NFL. His height is the root of a lot of the problems he deals with, but unlike other successful short QBs, he’s never found a *sustainable, consistent* way of combating the difficulties.
It’s just his stature, bryce has a lankier body despite being smaller. I don’t blame kyler for not wanting to get hit. He just had a career altering injury. This is why whiffing on an o line for 7 years is embarrassing, because look at darnold and daniel jones. Two guys who people have used the phrase “seeing ghosts” in regards to their pocket presence , who look drastically different behind…… quality o lines, among other things.
nope…theres actual video proof evidence of exacty his inability to see wide open receivers almost weekly. Its been proven, and the reason the K1 K2 kinda worked is because they were pass heavy and allowd him to scramble to see. Thats not a qb, thats a RB w a good arm
This is such Bullshit Kyler is the third most accurate passer in the NFL as of last week as far as hitting the players in the hands. Pretty good for not being able to see downfield.
Personally, I think Kyler got his payday, and now he’s just winging it.Wouldn’t be shocked to see him giving baseball another shot.I don’t see him playing in the NFL beyond 9-10 yrs.
Doesn’t have to be a wall. When guys are on their routes and the pass rush is closing in, the receivers are naturally going to a location that is “behind” the linemen at times. Also for taller guys as the pocket collapses it may get technically easier for them to peer over the line whereas with shorts guys it would get harder
From an outside perspective and having Bryce, I think it might be that he’s never had to sit in the pocket and make his read like I’ve seen others say here. He is very athletic and fast and always relied on that throughout his career to make up for his height. Bryce is similar height but not close to Kyler’s athleticism so he had to learn to stay in the pocket and read defenses and make progression at his height.
In the history of the league, has any other starting-level QB (for 5+ seasons) had at least 2-3 crucial passes blocked by the defense **every single game**
Kyler is a Tinder 5’10” .. meaning, in reality, he’s closer to 5’5” if not 5’0” flat
Young sets deeper in the pocket and stands pretty up right. Plus he doesn’t have the arm strength to get away with avoiding the middle of the field
Brees stood on his toes with his chin raised to see better.
Flutie talked about needing windows to throw over the middle
Wilson had a complimentary running game, boots, and stood deeper in the pocket. Also a pet theory of mine was he had most of his success in the heavy cover 3 periods of the league also called middle field closed. So he could more easily attack the outside.
This is Brock purdy on his seeing past his oline. My quarterback coach, Brian Griese, he and I talked a lot about that. He played 11 years, his dad is Bob Griese […] We got talking about how, really, it’s 60/40. You can see about 60% of the time and the other 40%, you really can’t. It doesn’t matter how big you are. You know, I’m already short in stature, yes, but that’s why it is so important when it comes down to knowing coverages, knowing scheme, where are our players supposed to be, how many steps they’re breaking and where the ball should be over a certain backer. All of those things, it matters.
— Brock Purdy
The huge thing is booting, throwing windows (oline specifically doubling an area to create movement for qb vision [generally slants and quicker hitting things]), deeper drops (which is harder on ots), and throwing outside the numbers.
You can win with a shorter qb with anticipation, toughness, and trusting yourself and teammates.
Kyler has struggled with all of those. He can do it, for instance the Miami dolphins game last year.
He just doesn’t do it consistently enough to take an average to above average roster to the playoffs
Kyler can’t read the field
I prefer to fantasise about Kyler’s shit vision/inability to hit 15+ yd targets in a “Ricky ‘Wild Thing’ Vaughn” scenario.
One day someone will slip a pair of bi-focals on him and the Cardinals will go on a Super Bowl run.
Took 6 years for this organization to learn that Kyler is –
*checks notes*
short.
Bryce Young’s height is definitely brought up quite often. Same as it was for Drew Brees and Russ. However, as the years go by it’s becoming quite clear that Brees was the vast exception to the rule regarding short QBs. Hell, Brees was 6’0 so it’s not like he was that much shorter.
With Kyler, he’s shorter than Brees. He doesn’t stay in the pocket nor does he step up into it. He scrambles into pressure way too often. He doesn’t go through his progressions. He doesn’t take hits. He doesn’t see the entire field.
This isn’t a rookie QB and I’m baffled why so many think things can get better with just another new coaching staff.
It’s not just his height. He has a tiny wingspan which makes it even more difficult for him. For example, his wingspan is 69 inches where Russell Wilson has a 75 inch wingspan.