Can Pirates work with Henry Davis, Joey Bart at catcher? Or does Ben Cherington need to make a move?

Can Pirates work with Henry Davis, Joey Bart at catcher? Or does Ben Cherington need to make a move?

What’s going on everybody? Welcome in to the Postgazette Pirate Show presented by FanDuel. Colin Beasley and I are here every Tuesday and Friday talking about various issues with the Pirates. Right now, we’re in the middle of a five-part series. We’re going position by position breaking down the Pirates. This has been a lot of fun. Previously, we did the outfielders and infielders. Today, catchers and designated hitter. We’ll talk all things pitching next week. It’ll be great. It wraps up, I believe, on Halloween evening. We’ll get into all of our latest one shortly, but Colin, how are you doing? Doing well. No complaints. Nice Friday in the Berg. All is good. How are you? I love it, man. I love it. The World Series starting tonight. I’m excited about it. Excited to have some ball. Uh who do you think wins this thing, by the way? Dodgers. I I think I think the Dodgers are gonna gonna win this. I just what the Brewers and Phillies did so well against the Dodgers is until the last game limiting show Otani and throwing a bunch of lefties at him. Blue Jays don’t really have that many guys that that can counter Shi and Freddy Freeman and other guys the Dodgers have. So I think the Dodgers should win this one in five games. Five games, huh? Well, I they win it in five. I think that conversation about baseball and a salary cap and competitive balance and all that, I think it’s going to be a lot louder. I don’t think anything will change and we’ll save that for a different podcast. But anyway, uh with the World Series going on, do want to talk about something with FanDuel real quick and I’m going to get Colin’s prediction here. We have Blake Snell opposite Trey Savage tonight. That’s the pitching matchup from Roger Center in Toronto. But want to talk about who’s going to hit the most home runs in the series. Here are your odds. Show Otani plus 200. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. plus 700. Max Munzy plus 750. George Springer plus 900. Daltton Varo I almost said Gary Varo showing my age plus 10,000. Tioscar Hernandez plus 1300. You going show or you going somebody else? I think I’d go with George Springer among those. I think Oh, the the hero. Yeah, I I I don’t think Show will hit that many homers, but I do think he’ll have a World Series moment. What do you think? I think Show I wanted to try to get creative and pick somebody and whatever. I think it’s I think it’s going to be show Freddy Freeman was not on there, correct? He was not among the highest. Found that a little bit surprising, but uh yeah, the Dodgers have an all-star team. It is what it is. A lot of options. A lot of options. Lot of options. How what what’s your World Series prediction? I didn’t ask you. I think Yeah, I think the Dodgers I think the Dodgers win it. I’m going to go six, though. I’m going to go the Blue Jays making it a little bit of a series. I think the Dodgers win tonight. Uh maybe they split these first two games. I think the Dodgers in six. And I hate it. I mean, I want the Blue Jays to win. Uh, like, and I realized like, you know, obviously I’m I’m a cap floor revenue sharing revamped advocate. Like, I want to see baseball undergo change and I want whatever outcome gives us that, but the Blue Jays are a good story, man. And like I I realize how much like an entire country pulls for them and I just I want to see somebody new win it. So, I want to see the Blue Jays win it, but I think the Dodgers will win it. I think that’s fair. Blue Jays are an excellent story and yeah, anytime you see a team get to the World Series for the first time since 92, a little bit of a better story since of get the team that was there in 2024 in my opinion, but yes, I don’t know. We’ll see. All right, let’s talk a little buckos. We’re not here to talk just about the World Series. Uh the preview piece a lot of times they’ve been running the same day as this video podcast. U this will run, I believe, Saturday morning, correct? This will go live. So, we’re talking a little bit about something that’s not quite out yet, but that’s all right. Um, some really key questions here involving one of the Pirates star players, obviously most popular players, Andrew McCutchen. And let’s just get that one right off the hop. Colin, what are we doing with Andrew McCutchen? We’ll we’ll dig a little deeper into his performance because I think there’s an interesting dichotomy going on. But, you know, is there any scenario where they move on from him? I just my brain is literally split 50% in how they should approach this, but I’m going to I’m going to make you answer the tough part first. Fair. Um I do think there’s a scenario when you where they move on to him and we’ll start with the negatives first. McCutchen at DH had a career low 95 WRC plus this year. He was worth 0.1 war according to baseball reference. Slugging percentage was a career career low dropping to 367 this year. And while he was one of the Pirates better hitters, and I want to I want to make that very clear, he was certainly not the biggest issue or or really like he he was he was fine this year, but all of his numbers all of his numbers dropped this year. He’s 38 years old. And yes, he criticized Major League Baseball’s baseballs and he said he felt like he should be having a better year than he’s having, but at the same time, he he did show some noticeable decline this year. I’m fine with having him around. I’d like him to be around. I think that he’s done enough for Pittsburgh and for the Pirates to be a Pirate for as long as he’d like to, but where I have an issue with it is if he has the same role that he had this year where he How many games was he the DH4? He started 120 games at designated hitter and was worth 0.1. I just I’d like a little bit better out of that position. I think that’s one of the easiest places for the Pirates to make a change, but I still do want Andrew McCussen in the Pirates clubhouse. What say you? Yeah, I mean, I think it happens. First off, I think it happens. Uh, but I do think there’s an interesting discussion and I’d love to hear some of the like behind the-scenes machinations here that I don’t think we ever will because like I’ve thought through this if it as if I was Ben Sharon and if I’m Ben Sherington, I’m probably looking to move on from Andrew McCutchen. I think that’s a completely realistic take. Like you’re not emotionally attached to it. You think, “Okay, well, if I have only so many dollars, my offense is really bad. I have to go out and get something.” All of the numbers that you outlined from the DH position, the Pirates have not gotten enough out of that. Like, if I’m not going to move off of like Reynolds, Cruz, Horowitz at this point, Connor Griffin’s going to be up here. I don’t know what I’m doing behind the plate. Like, there’s only so many things that I can do there. and a guy that really can’t play the field. I’m not trying to tear down Cutch. I’m gonna build him back up in a second, but you need that position to be elite offensively. And you can spend a little bit to get it elite offensively. And again, this is Ben Sherrington’s perspective. Uh I don’t blame him for looking at something else or trying to do that differently. I think the Trump card here though, Colin, is just catch. It’s catch. Like you should write your own ticket. This should end the way he says it ends. uh the Pirates, you know, yes, you need to sort of have those conversations and say, um, this isn’t going to be 120 games. You shouldn’t be one of the primary offensive contributors, but we respect you enough. Like, we want to end this in the appropriate way. I hope Andrew gets his side of it, too. Like, this should end well. I I think what you can’t have happen here, and this is what worries me, is you can’t end this in a way that like there’s animosity coming from Andrew McCutchen and the Pirates. like they have so such a small amount of positivity from his era still around that you can grab on to. You can’t afford to do that. And I would hope that all all of the stuff that Bob Nutting does that irritates people, he gets that one. He understands that like look, we can’t kick touch to the curb. That’s not going to go well for us now and in the future. So anyway, I think he comes back. But I do understand like on a lower level why you’re you’re looking at this and saying like we kind of need more offense. you kind of need to do this differently. But, you know, one of the problems, of course, is that the rest of the team was bad and then it exposes Andrew for, you know, he largely is produced according to his contract. Like that the whole team’s offense stinks, but it’s not uncutch. Yeah. Like if this was a purely baseball decision, if this wasn’t Andrew McCutchen, if you just say this is a blank 38-year-old designated hitter who produced his stats on a one-year contract, then yeah, it’s a relatively simple conversation just to to move on and and to just as far as a baseball conversation to move on from him. But given his history, given what he means to this franchise, he he really has earned the right to be a pirate for however long he wants to be a pirate and really to go out on his own terms. I I think that that’s that’s worth letting him do if there’s a way to do it while also doing what’s best for the team itself. And I I I think that’s more of a split role. I think if you get to he’s starting 70, 80 games somewhere in there, if he’s like pinch hitting more, if he’s still around in the clubhouse, still treated well, maybe throw him some things in his contract. I don’t know exactly what that would be, but maybe there are some pot sweeteners you can do. Like I just treat treat treat him well and let him go out the way he wants to be the way he wants to go out but probably not 120 starts at DH in my opinion. No, no, it shouldn’t be. And if he’s looking for more, I think at that point you just you have to move on. And and if you’re the Pirates, you say you’ve made an offer. But all right, let’s move on. We have a lot to get to. We don’t have a ton of time. Um, as far as your second question here, will the Pirates commit to a full-time DH or use a committee approach? Let’s say Andrew McCutchen is is either not a part of things or a smaller part of things. I think that would lead to more of a committee approach. But um what approach do you think they wind up using and if if there it’s a committee? If it’s a group, I think it could be. Uh who else is in that committee for you? Yeah, I I agree with what you were saying earlier where I I do think this ends with Cutch coming back and I do think this ends with some sort of a committed approach. And internally, two of the guys that stand out to me are number one, Brian Reynolds. Um he played some DH this year was the second he uh started 35 games as designated hitter and he actually was slightly better than when he was in right field. It’s 35 games so not a huge sample size but as a DH he hit 259. Six of his 16 homers and 22 of his 73 RBI’s came as a designated hitter and he had about 150 plate appearances at DH compared to 500 in right field. So that those are those are decent splits. don’t really know what to make of it, but he he performed more in line with what you’re looking for out of a designated hitter in my opinion. And then the the other guy who comes out to me, and I know we’ll talk about him more in the catcher portion of this, is Joey Bart. He didn’t necessarily provide the pop you’re looking for as a designated hitter, but he was also an abovea bat and wasn’t necessarily the strongest defensively. I think maybe playing him at DH some and maybe playing him at first base like you’ve talked about before, that’s a way you can get his bat in the lineup without necessarily having some of his uh without necessarily worrying about some of the defensive struggles a catcher he had this year. Yeah, I I would cosign that. I don’t know if they’re going to I mean, you had the opportunity to try Joey Bart somewhere else. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t take it. Um and it’s a delicate balance, too, right? like you’re not going to bench bench Spencer Horowitz. He was one of your more productive hitters. So, I don’t really know where you put Joey Bart. And what does that mean for Henry Davis? You want to give Henry Davis an opportunity to play as well. Uh you wrote in the preview and and I agree with this and I think it’s one of the reasons why I would go into next season with Henry Davis as my opening day catcher. And I think it’s it’s it’s neat how we blended these two because a lot of these storylines do happen to intersect. But Henry Davis has been pretty good defensively and pitchers have been a lot better with him behind the plate. And I don’t think it’s just Paul Ske aided. The Pirates were 39 and 35 with Henry Davis behind the plate. Um they had a 2.87 RA with Joey Bart. They were 26 and 50, had a 473 RA. Colin, I don’t think Joey Bart is good enough to hang defensively behind the plate. I if he’s putting up an 800 OPS, cool. I just don’t necessarily see that coming from him. Uh, and it it makes me question what the Pirates are sort of after here. Um, I know you weren’t around for this. I was. The Pirates a couple years ago love telling us how much they valued catcher defense. This was like Roberto Perez, Jacob Stallings, Austin Hedges, that area, that era. Like Austin Hedges was here. He couldn’t hit a lick. And we kept getting told in every single organizational talking point was how important catcher defense is. I don’t disagree with that. Like I don’t think Austin Hedges was a problem here. I think he got a bad rap. We’re seeing it in Cleveland. He’s doing just fine. Um but like what matters to you? Does offense matter? Does defense matter? I think defense matters to them, which is why I don’t see why you would move away from Henry Davis. As much as people on the outside might say that’s a crazy take, like if you’re going to be consistent and say that defense matters for a catcher, Henry Davis is far and away a better defensive catcher. And you outlined that perfectly in the piece. Yeah, I I’m really interested to see where what the evolution of catcher defense is considering ABS coming in 2026 and that I know that’s an entirely different conversation, but as for Henry Davis, you catcher is exactly where I want a defense first player if I’m going to have one. If I want a guy who doesn’t provide that much with the bat, who provides a ton defensively, I want it to be my catcher. That’s why I I think that Henry Davis should get as many chances. And I don’t necessarily care how much he hits. Now, he’s got to hit better than 160. Like there there is a line there. The line is somewhere above 160. I don’t know if it’s 200, 220, whatever. There’s a line. There is a line somewhere. It’s above 160. I like that. I don’t want to say my 160 batting catcher is going to play 162 games, but if considering what Henry Davis brings to the table defensively at eight defensive run save for Van Graphs, he he threw out baseball. Savant has like a weird catcher caught stealing stat over above average. He threw out six more base runners than an average catcher according to Savant. That’s something that matches the eye test. Henry Davis was really good defensively and I think that that and being Paul Ski’s personal catcher and kind of sort of being Bubba Chandler’s personal catcher as well. I think that that’s that shows that he has a role and he’s he’s valued by this team. Yeah, I agree. And I mean if you’re in that clubhouse, which you are, I’m speaking to viewers and listeners. I mean it’s very clear how much this pitching staff respects and likes Henry Davis. Like lo and behold, we’re here. Henry Davis is a better defensive catcher than he is an offensive catcher. Um Derek Shelton probably couldn’t believe it. Ben Sherington’s probably surprised. I think there was some doubt that, you know, Henry Davis was going to pan out here. I’m not giving up on the offense either. And I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that. I want to talk a little bit about Raphael Flores, what we might see from him. Um and and just where this catcher position goes and any other changes. But uh first we have a typical message, our advertisement from Greenalt Roofing. We hope you enjoy it. Hey Pittsburgh, when you think of great roofs, you think Greenwalt Roofing Company. With over 20 years experience, Greenalt knows your roof is your home’s first line of defense. From rain, wind, snow, and ice. That’s why Greenalt Roofing standard for perfection is so important. You can trust that their team of experienced installers will treat your property like it’s their own. When it comes to roof replacements, Greenwald Roofing is Pittsburgh’s only choice. Visit greenowroofing.com today or call 412-314882 to schedule your free estimate. PA contractor number 36262. And welcome back to the Postgazette Pirate Show. It’s a Friday. We’re talking about catchers and designated hitter breaking the team down position by position. And our stopping point here was Henry Davis and sort of the next guy I think in the list of uh characters behind the plate. You might see Raphael Flores. Um I’m a little jealous. I wasn’t around the team as much as you were obviously Colin this past season. seems like a a unique personality, a mature personality produced um in Triple A. Uh Flores, of course, came over in the David Bednar trade. Some intrigue. Um we’ll be curious to see where he fits, but I want to hear your thoughts on him and and where you see uh Flores maybe evolving to this season. He’s got to be up here soon, right? Yeah, I’m I’m curious what they end up doing with Flores. I first first of all, I like the guy. He was he was fun to talk to. He he was very excited to be there in the last couple weeks of the season, which is something that like with with with an eliminated team while morale was never take all of those you can get. Huh. There’s not there’s no issue there. Like that’s that’s not I’m not necessarily saying anything there, but it was cool to see him get to um live out a dream a little bit at the at the end of the season. And he overall did well. It was a cameo. He played in seven games. A he doubled in his first two games, slowed a little bit later, ended up batting, I believe, 200. He threw out a base runner the one time that he caught nine innings. And I’d say it was basically what you’re looking for out of a cameo. He showed that he can hang a little bit. Like he he he showed some pop. He showed some of his tools. He showed that he has a good arm. He looked fine in his dining behind the plate. I wouldn’t necessarily say that what he did in the those in that cameo should guarantee him a major league role on opening day, but it also was encouraging to see that he could get up there. He could make a little bit of loud contact. Both doubles were laced and he had a couple of hard hit balls as well. And yeah, I that’s kind of what I’m saying. I I I don’t necessarily know that there’s an opening day role for him, but yeah, I I was encouraged by the cameo. Yeah, I have a tough time seeing him being on the opening day roster at this point. That’s not a mark against him. I just think there’s more time. Like I I think about as of now. Um and I Were you a give Joey Bart a contract guy or were you going to non-tender him? I kind of see it both ways. Like I Oh, come on. I need to get back to the original. Just kidding. I Yeah, I don’t I don’t know. I don’t know if there’s a there’s a role for him, but at the same time, he’s not he’s not that expensive. So maybe bring him back and see what you’ve got in spring training. Go on. All right. where where I was going with that is I I like Joey Bart and Henry Davis make more sense to me as major league players and then I’m probably going to put Raphael Flores and Edd Andy Rodriguez and Triple A and see what happens. I I don’t know what the certainty is there. I I I like a lot of the tools that I’ve seen with both of them. With Andy, it’s obviously health related. It’s not really ability related, although I need to see him hit a little bit more than he has um in Major League Baseball. Has hit in AAA. But like I’m going to try to figure out a spot there. I’m probably not gonna add externally at least at catcher. Maybe if something lines up, but I just like I want to see what Flores can do. I want to see if Henry can find some offense. I want to see if Joey Bart can find some defense or play first base. I want to see if Andy can get healthy. I just I I feel like they have much bigger needs than than either of those things. But I am genuinely intrigued by Flores, Colin. That that was kind of our like jumping off point with that. But, you know, he can play first base. Uh, I think he’s a reverse reverse split guy, I want to say, which is kind of odd, but you would expect maybe him to improve against lefties, but just an intriguing kid. I like the I like the return there. Yeah, I didn’t I didn’t read too much into too much into his splits. I I didn’t look too much at what he did in in terms of lefties versus righties. He was batting 281 with six homers and 822 OPS in AAA. And again, like this is a guy who hadn’t been at at AAA, let alone the majors before July, right? So, he’s still getting used to that level of competition. I think that I think you’re right. I think he starts the season in AAA, but I I am I am intrigued. I’m curious to see what he what he does with with Andy. I’m Where do you Where do you see him? I with the I don’t I don’t I don’t know. with the elbow injuries. Is he Can he even be counted on to catch anymore at this point? I guess I wouldn’t I wouldn’t catch him. I wouldn’t catch him. I’d play him at first. I I don’t I don’t know if he has a spot, man. I I hate saying that. Like, have you even met Andy? Because I think you were coming in right as he got hurt. Okay. I have met Andy. I did I did like Andy, but yeah, I barely met Andy. It’s like what a what an incredible kid. Like the the personality, the work ethic, all of it is like 80 great across the board. I just don’t know where I can put him. He’s not going to play first base. Like you’re blocked by Horwitz. He’s not going to catch. I worry about his elbow. I’ll give him an opportunity to catch. Like you put him at second. I don’t It’s been too long since he’s experimented out there. Do you try him like corner outfield? I might honestly call him. I might give him an outfielder’s glove and say, “Show me what you can do.” Like they have so few options there that if he happens to hit and like he can hold down right field or something or I guess in this case, hold down left field. I don’t know. I don’t have a good option for it. I just don’t I don’t see a clear path to playing time, but I know that the Pirates, they should be looking to take and and hold and grasp on to every single hitter they have. So, if you hit, we’ll find a place for it. Yeah. Ben Ben Cherington was asked about Andy in August or or somewhere in there and was asked if he views him as a catcher still. And he said at that time that he did that they’d reconsidered over the offseason. And one of the biggest reasons why he sees Andy Rodriguez as a catcher is both the hit tool and because he’s a left-handed bat. He likes having a righty lefty split and that’s sort of a platoon at catcher. That’s not something that the Pirates currently have and that’s they currently have right-handed hitters with Joey Bart, Henry Davis, and Raphael Flores as as their catcher. So, there is some value there, but he’s missed two whole years with elbow injuries essentially. like is that that might be too big of a gap for a catcher to overcome. I agree. Hypothetical question for you. If somebody offered you something meaningful for Joey Bart, would you do it? Yes. Yeah, I think I would too. Yes. Yeah. I I I struggle to move on from one of the few one of the few above average hitters that the team had. And I again, he had a 101 OPS. He was one of two pirates above league average of 100 which him and Spencer Horwitz but I like 26 and 50 is is just that’s damning right there. I again it’s win loss is not a pure catcher stat. There’s so many variables that go into that. He didn’t catch Paul skins. That hurts. There’s a whole lot in there, but when you see that big of a difference between him and Henry Davis, and Joey Bart only hit four home runs this year. It wasn’t like he was 2024 Joey Bart. If he’s if the hitting is isn’t what it was in 2024 and the defense is that much different than Henry Davis. Yeah, I’ I’d move on from him. Yeah, I would too, man. I I if I could get something back, I’d I’d shake Joey’s hand and say, “Thank you very much for your service. Good luck, sir. Uh, but for the time being, I I wouldn’t I don’t think I would do it for nothing. Like, that’s kind of my line. Um, but I I do hear what you’re saying like that just the lack of the lack of defense. Henry’s a 1-1 pick. Like, they’re going to give him an opportunity to perform. I understand it’s been bad, but like he’s at least been a justifiable play with his defense. And if you’re going to lean into the pitching thing, like I understand it, but it clears, and I guess why I said that is like it clears a little bit of playing time, if you want to try to bring up Flores or Andy or somebody produces, you know, I remember for years when these guys were coming up through the minors, like there was a talk about, you know, it’s going to be Andy and Henry, they’re going to trade off and they’re each going to play another position and it’ll keep their bat in the lineup all the time, like this this grand plan. And I guess it could happen, but yeah. Anyway, we we got off on a tangent. Just something that intrigued me. Yeah, it’s it’s crazy how much something like that can can change in a few few years. How bestlaid plans can Yeah. change when one of your catchers doesn’t hit in the big leagues. Yeah. Anything else? We good? It’s all from me. Good talk. Enjoy the World Series tonight. Everybody watching, listening, enjoy your weekend. Great sports weekend in Pittsburgh, by the way. I’m excited about this. We’ll be back on Tuesday to talk a little bit more ball. Make sure you like and subscribe. You can get all of this content from the Post Gazette and the Northshore Drive podcast and YouTube channels for Colin Beasley. I’m Jason Mackey. We’ll talk to you next week. [Music] Thank you for checking out this content from Postgazette Sports. If you watch this video on YouTube, please like the video and subscribe to our channel. For all the sports coverage that PostGazette has to offer, visit post-gazette.com. [Music]

Post-Gazette Pirates insiders Jason Mackey and Colin Beazley continue their series of podcasts looking back on the 2025 season and forward at moves GM Ben Cherington and manager Don Kelly could make to improve.

Did Henry Davis become good enough defensively to overcome his offensive shortcomings? Should Joey Bart have a role on this team as a struggling defender? And where do Endy Rodriguez and Rafael Flores fit into the future at the position?

The guys ponder those questions as well as the DH spot, where Andrew McCutchen’s future looms large.

For more Pirates coverage, visit: https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates

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