Worried About Warriors? Detroit To Make a Move? + Knicks Stepping Up | The Hoop Collective

Worried About Warriors? Detroit To Make a Move? + Knicks Stepping Up | The Hoop Collective

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we’re viewing on Thursday late morning on the West Coast, early afternoon on the East Coast. Joining us from the West Coast in Sacramento, where he attended the Sacramento Kings Golden State Warriors game on Wednesday night, is our man Anthony Slater. What’s up, Slater? felt like I was in 2015, 2016, a decade earlier. I even said something to Russ postgame. I’m like, I’m I’m writing about you. I’m writing about you having triple doubles. Uh it was a flashback. I mean, cuz you know, as you know, I covered him way way back in time. Joining us from New York, actually, you might be in New Jersey. I don’t know which side of the river you’re on, but you were at the the Knicks game last night. Uh Vincent Vince Vinnie Goodwill. Vinnie, I before you say anything, I He’s talking about throwbacks of 2015. I I took My head went back last night. I took I took some shrapnel last night because it was a Cavs throwback night. The Cavs had a throwback night last night. Jerseys, right? Yeah. To 2009 when they had blue jerseys, I was like, “Holy bleep.” That was like the middle of my career. Like like I was 6 years into covering the NBA and that is now qualifying for freaking throwback bleep. I had to sit down and put on shoes. We old. That’s all. We old. I’m just happy to get you two on a podcast together. I’m ready for Can we do like a Zaduna Sowskis flashback? Like what was that 09 season like? You guys probably covered multiple games together that year. Oh my god. I think the uh the Cavs might have played the Pistons in the first round, swept them. That was the end of that was the end of that era. Uh Chris Weber. No, no, no. Chris was 07. Okay. Right. That’s right. You’re right. Yeah. 09 was the post Chanty Bilips trade. The the the Michael Curry coaching, the disastrous uh Chanty Bips Allen Iverson trade and all that stuff. Oh man. Yeah. Um, I lost track of how many times I dragged my ass up to Auburn Hills, man. Uh, Troy Marriott. Troy Marriott. Funny times. Fun times, Wendy. I’m sure. Um, yeah, I could go on. I literally I could take this podcast on a 45minute talk about my time in Auburn Hills in the 2000s, but we’re going to move it forward. We’re going to talk about today’s NBA. Uh, Slater Westbrook. Yeah. Well, this has been an interesting week for Westbrook because he fired some shrapnel across the uh aisle at the Nuggets. U basically saying they kicked him out of town. Um and he’s like, you know, um Bennett Durando from the Denver Post was asking him the questions and he was like, uh well, didn’t you have a player option? Because he did. He opted out of 4.3 million and signed back for 3.6. Yeah. You tell me that Westbrook is uh notoriously frugal. Mhm. That’s giving up money. I assume he didn’t enjoy that $700,000 trade out. But he said, “I don’t go where I’m not wanted.” So, he fired uh a missile over at uh at Denver. Um and then he had some things. By the way, I thought you might have to play for the Warriors last night. But hey, listen. It’s an NBA game. The Kings were missing some dudes, too. Westbrook. Kings weren’t just missing some dudes. I mean both sides were civility. They were missing Sabonis Lavine and Keegan Murray. Uh Russell West been basically starting at the four for them power forward. He’s guarded Lorie Markiner and he’s guarded Giannis. He’s been awesome and he signed a week before Kev. You mentioned, you know, giving up the player option in Denver for a little less money. He also walked himself into a very unknown summer, right? He didn’t sign until, you know, September, whatever it was. Uh but he’s been great. He’s been one of their, you know, three, four best players starting now playing 35 minutes a night. You mentioned it, 23 points, 16 assists, 10 rebounds last night. It’s a win the Kings needed and 204th triple double, 18th season, turns 37 next week. I mean, it is those nights are reminders of like the accumulation of his career and how unbelievable it was. Including in the press conference, he makes the statement, I’m the greatest rebounding guard ever. Uh, and I just asked like, hey, is that like statistically driven or like when did you, you know, try to claim that? And he was basically looking at me like, “Look, I’ve always claimed it.” But then Josh Dau from AP’s in there and he literally had the stat up for his story saying, “Actually, tonight you passed Jason Kidd for the most rebounds ever by a guard. Tonight was history.” And he’s like, “I didn’t even know that.” Uh, but again, it’s just like this, he is the greatest rebounding guard ever. Uh, and I think sometimes within what the later stages of his career has been, this is now his seventh team. uh we kind of forget a little bit of just what he statistically has meant historically. Vinnie, is he the greatest rebounding guard? I’m sure Oscar Robertson might have something to say. I’d have to I’d have to I saw that. I mean, I didn’t just hear in this second. I just haven’t I haven’t really thought about it. I mean, didn’t not to is Magic Johnson like do we not count Irvin in this? Like, didn’t he average seven and a half rebounds for his Michiganer having a statement there? Okay, listen. That’s Yeah, I don’t know how much you guys like, you know, the numbers matter more than just eye test or whatever, but like his per 36 rebounds are are number one. I think Magic’s two and Fat Lever is three. But like, you know, Oh, Fat Lever. Fat Lever. That’s a name. That is a name. That is a name again. I mean, I think some people would argue like he’s he’s hunting the numbers in a lot of ways. Uh well, you remember Stephen Adams in that year? Steven Adams, part of his job description was to was to block everybody out of the way so Russ could get free throw rebounds. I mean, beyond just the the the numbers it produce in the triple double, it’s like that’s actually a pretty wise strategy. You wipe the defenders out and your fastest guy on the floor gets the rebound and go or or how about outlet passes? Like what would Wes Unel say about Russell Westbrook saying, “Hey, how about you just clear out and let me grab the rebound?” I think I think and because I was one of those people in 2017 that did not vote for Russell Westbrook for MVP because I felt like we as a voting block mass of people we fell in love with the number 10. Like I asked so many people if Russ 31 n would you have one MVP and people said no. Like so what we doing if if we’re falling in love with a round number? Fair point. But on the opposite end of that, the effect of, shall we, like his spirit, like the effect of like he’s an ass kicker, right? And he walks into a locker room and that sort of thing permeates. And I think with the Kings, you have very docile personalities like Zack Lavine, Damada Sabonis, you you know, Demar D Rozan, he’s a vet, but he’s not a get in your face sort of vet. Russell Westbrook is the guy that is operating with getting uh organizing team dinners, mandatory team dinners on the road and you better show up. And if any other players doing that, are you showing up? But if Russell Westbrook is telling you to show up for op a non-optional team dinner, you’re showing up because you don’t want that smoke on the other end. So I think there’s a like a duality to the way that we talk about it. Yeah, there’s the stat hunting and everything else and that’s kind of cringey because that came to define him for a few years, but there’s also this dogged leader that people genuinely respect, especially for a team like the Kings that needs it. Like Russ can’t fit on every team, but for a team like the Kings, he almost fits perfectly with what they need right now. It’s very purposeful. That was done by Scott Perry, the new GM with Doug Christie as the head coach, cuz they’re that’s how they’re trying to build this team. And this is in some ways, in many ways, is kind of going to be a lost season for the Kings. I mean, I think we all agree it’s not necessarily going anywhere, but this is year one of a regime that is trying to reform the image. Uh, kind of opposite of what the roster says it should be in a lot of ways. Uh, and and the idea of adding Russell Westbrook is what you were saying. They want an edge. They want to become like this defensive like grit team. Again, I think they’re going like it’s going to take some years and some retooling and some roster change, but this is a mindset thing. Defensive grit. Let’s trade for Zack Lavine. I like Zack Lavine. Hey, that’s why I said the new regime that you know again although I you know the same owner still sits at top who I think we can all say green lit the Zack Lavine deal. But you got you got you got to think Scott Perry is a son of a Pittsburgh Steelers, you know, executive and was an executive himself with the Detroit Pistons during their era. Like this is a tough-minded dude who views basketball through a certain prism and he’s going to build a roster that has a certain element of toughness. He’s not shy. Steelers camp every year. I was talking to him the other day. He went to he’s like really friendly with Mike Tomlin and Mike Tomlin opens the doors every year and he goes for like multiple days and this year he brought BJ Armstrong as assistant GM and Doug Christie and they like stayed out in the dorms of wherever the Steelers St. Vincent College, right? I think that’s Yeah, they spent like five days out there and so you know that’s why he got Russell Westbrook. This is the type of team he’s trying to build. Look, Scott Perry was my teammate for a couple years at ESPN so I I rooted for the best. I just think the roster is in a tough spot. Um, Slater, can you update us on where the Warriors are? Like, um, Draymond, um, uh, Draymond and then Jimmy Butter hurt his back. Draymond was out. Steph’s got an illness. What What’s the status there? Was it wine? Was it wine flu? No, it was like a legitimate flu. He sounded horrible postgame after the the Pacers game, like coughing, sniffling. It said it was getting worse. I talked to him in the locker room afterwards. You know, it’s like stay back 8 feet unless you want to get this. He stayed home. He was like they did a pregame huddle yesterday in Sacramento he was on FaceTime. I don’t know which player somebody had the phone up and he was on FaceTime in the huddle. Uh but he’s he was legitimately sick to the point that he told Steve Kerr yesterday the symptoms were still worsening and I you know I wonder about his status Friday against Denver. Butler went up for a dunk in Indie kind of back tightened up. You know that’s it’s kind of the age of this team. Tried to play through it uh you know on the in the Suns game. had to a ask out after 14 ineffective minutes. I expect him to still try to give it a go Friday in Denver. Draymond, you know, I think it was it was uh they just utilized the mass rest type night. Draymond actually was the one of the three that made the trip to Sacramento was on the bench. So that they’re generally fine as far as you’ll see them soon, but I will say if you’re going to ring some alarm bells, it’s eight games into the season and you know Steve Kerr’s on the podium talking about how wiped out their stars are. I know it is a uh condensed early season schedule. They’re about to go on a six-game trip. It’s they’ve already played three backs to backs, most in the league, but it it’s November 6th and they’re talking about being wiped out for a stretch. I not not a great sign. I have two Warriors comments. the first time, the next time I see Steph Curry, I don’t know when that’s going to be, but I am going to talk to him about what I think is one of the greatest feats of his career, which just happened. Okay. In this in this golfing thing that he did with Bryson D. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You’re acting like it’s like I’m joking. He was really proud of the way he played that day. Rightfully so. Do you have any idea what I’m talking about, Vinnie? I heard it on a podcast that Steph was on which asked me which brought to me if he had a wine hangover. No, I didn’t know exactly what he was talking about. This was this was a a badass hangover from being a badass. Cuz I’m telling you, first off, it’s this it’s this web series that Bryson Dam goes. And I’m not endorsing the series. You don’t have to watch it, but this particular episode, it was an hour and 10 minutes long. I wanted it to be three hours long. You watched all at 110. Hell yes, I did. I enjoyed every second of it. And there’s this one moment where, you know, Bryson Dshambo, he’s like the one of the longest hitters in the world. Certainly amongst the professional golfers. There’s guys out there who are specialists who like only swing like, you know, who aren’t real pro players who can hit it longer. But amongst the pro golfers, Bryson’s like top three. And there’s this one hole where Bryson hits it and he’s like, “Oh, I got that one parard. I got that one.” It was a par five. They’re trying to get there in two and he’s like cracking his knuckles like I got that one real good. And so the concept of the show is, you know, they’re in the cart and they’re, you know, they’re shooting the the bleep while they’re driving. And so they’re driving up and uh, you know, Bryson’s still admire. He’s like, “Yeah, I’ve been I’ve been waiting. I’ve been the whole day. I’ve been holding back for that this drive.” And they get up there and he’s like, and it’s best as you can see it in real time. He’s like, “Wait a minute, Steph. Steph, you might have got me. Steph, you might have got first off, he hit like seven jaw-dropping shots in the in the round.” And it was a scramble and I think they used more shots of Stephss than Bryson’s. And to be that good and to to play that way in that setting, amazing. Second thing I’m gonna say about the Warriors, you saw this little flare up this week between Draymond and KD about whether defense or offense wins championships. And I know that there’s aggregation involved and KD’s, you know, doing his thing on social media. The Warriors were the best offense and the best defensive team in those years. End of discussion. Either you got anything to say about that? I mean, it’s just true. Okay, so like I’m I’m over I’m tired of it. I I mean, look, Dre Draymond is going to get his takes off, you know, including on the NFL. Uh, you know, I think he made some headlines this week talking about Dak Prescott. Um, and and Kevin Durant is going to respond to to take CC’s on online. And your assessment is correct. I mean, that’s that’s why they were dominant in that era. Like, you know, think about, you know, the front line with prime KD, prime Draymond in like late prime Andre Iguadala with Klay Thompson. Prime Klay Thompson is like your just like hound on the perimeter. Yeah, those were pretty good defensive teams. I mean, that’s called that’s why it’s called a death lineup for a reason. And it wasn’t called a death lineup because of how great they were on offense. like that was a byproduct. But because you were able to cause like hell on teams for 10-minute stretches where you just prevented them from scoring and you could run away and hide because you could turn defense on offense better than any team in NBA history. Better than I mean, look, man, that 2017 Warriors team might have might be the greatest single season team. Number one number one in offensive rating, number two in defensive rating. And it was close enough to the Spurs that if there had been a different last week of the season where they maybe played, they might have been number one in both. Okay. Then 1718 where they already knew they had everybody beat. Like they knew no one was touching them. So they were three in offense and like six in defense. And that was when they knew that if they just had to tap the gas that they could just take anybody down. So, I’m just saying number one. Number one. All right. Sorry. Detour. Benny, you were at the Knicks game. Yeah, the Knicks are starting to power up. I don’t know if anyone’s paying attention. Um, they are now in the top five in offense. Um, I think over the last like seven to 10 days, I think they’ve been actually the number one offense in the league or right there with Houston. Houston’s scoring some serious points these days. Um Josh Hart has come back from his I mean he started playing a a while ago but from his back injury um he starts to he’s sort of been reanimated. Um I know they got off to a sluggish start but um and I know there was a whole Carl Towns thing but um the Knicks are going to be all right. I think well by all right it depends on what we mean right? Like I think we’re going to get to if if the rundown is correct, I think I might have a take for you later on. But as far as the Knicks are concerned, Mitchell Robinson last night played 16 minutes, had nine offensive rebounds and two block shots. Like the fact that you can control in today’s NBA, if you can control possessions, they shot 53% from the field and like 40 from three and he had nine offensive rebounds in 16 minutes. like the fact that you were able to control that many possessions in that little stretch of time in a game where you’re offensively efficient and it’s not the Jaylen Brunson show. wasn’t the uh Carl Town show. Like OG Anobi and Mikuel Bridges are really sort of having great years. Like OG Anobi is I want to say careerhigh shooting, career-high shooting from three, career-high rebounding, career-high steals, careerhigh steals rate, career high scoring. So far, small sample size, right? But I think a they play really well at home, Wendy. B, they’re kind of a bit of don’t say frontr running team, but if they get some positive reinforcement, they’re going to be fine. And even though they don’t necessarily scare anybody in the Eastern Conference, like per se, they are bonafide. Like this is a good rock. This is a really good top seven. I don’t think anybody can deny that. Mike Brown wanted OG Anobi with the Kings. I remember remember when Anobi was with the Raptors. It’s it’s one of the things he kind of like craved and never felt like he got in Sacramento, which was like length and power and like veteran uh you know juice on the wing and just the fact that I know he’s loving coaching OG Anobi and Muel Bridges as like you know this kind of you know next stage of his coaching career. What do you I mean where are you guys at on like his the way he’s implementing change there? I felt like there were some maybe kind of awkward moments in the first few games. Obviously, the town stuff. Uh, but it’s it seems to be going well. I think it sounds like the three-point shooting is is way up from the role players and um you know, it’s only however many games in, but they seem to be shifting a little schematically. They’re passing the ball more. And I was there a little bit in the preseason and it was pace, pace, pace, pace, pace, pace, pace. You know, it’s like every single team was like, “We got to have so much pace.” Um I I just looked it up. They’re 23rd in pace. So it’s not like, you know, relative to the league. Last year they were 26th when Jaylen Brunson was leading the league in dribbles. So it’s not like they’re flying up the court, but here’s the thing. They’ve got like I know this is going to sound like surface level analysis. They’ve got like eight really good players and like for the last couple weeks most of them have been healthy and so they put eight good players out there and Mike Brown does have them. I you know the Knicks probably have some stats that show that within half court offense they’re moving a little bit faster that they’re dribbling less because I do think that you know that is the case. Um so maybe there’s different ways to define pace. Um, but this is what Mike was hired to do was hired to uh make over their offense and what you’re talking about, Vinnie, with Anobi being sort of activated offensively. Like that’s what they want. They want less reliance on Jaylen Brunson. They got some guys to come off their bench. You know, Jordan Clarkson and uh you know, Miles McBride’s back and he’s been doing been doing good. Like they want that that sort of uh stuff off their bench. But the but the point was to get other players going and OG’s a case where that’s uh that’s definitely been the case. I mean I will say this guys, it took Mike Brown 40 minutes to come and talk to us last night in a postgame press conference and I don’t think he was addressing the team right. I wonder how much and this is after they scored 83 points in the second half in a game where Anthony Edwards had just come back from injury. Julius Randall was back at Madison Square Garden again and everything else and I’m like I’m curious. Okay. Was Jim Dolan talking to Mike Brown after the game? Like there’s always something around the corner. Did the players talk first? By the time we they and I didn’t realize this, but they did wind up opening the locker room while Mike Brown was talking. Like it’s a weird They did this in Sacramento. Like Mike would talk after the players and I mean you said 40 minutes. I’m like Doug Christy was probably like 120 last night. Like Monk went, Westbrook went. I think 120 probably, but he was like the last to go. It’s rare. Come on media, get get on that. Uh correct that. I mean come pretty quick. With all due respect, Doug Christie hasn’t been coaching like Phil Jackson out there. Like you know, let’s go coach. Come on. Let’s go. You’re a rookie coach. Well, so so it is new. Like the idea I’ve always it’s always been coach first and pretty quick and then sometimes the players really can linger and I guess I was asking cuz like a lot of times with Mike in Sacramento it would be players first and then you know he’d go. So maybe he just learned that habit or maybe to your point he’s he’s breaking down film with with Dolan and and then you know going through pick and roll. Definitely Tom Tibido did routinely I don’t know what happened. This ain’t Vinnie’s first time at at the garden. Okay, that’s number one. Number two I don’t know what happened. Let’s just say that sounds very plausible because Tibs was known to make sure that he if if Mr. Dolan wanted to talk about the game, he did. In fact, years ago before the garden renovation, you could like there was like a room that you could sort of see in to like the coaches area and there was like a a window on the door and the media started noticing that Dolan was going in there and talking to um talking to the coaches after the game. This is like literally 10 years ago and maybe even longer. And um one day a one or two days after it was in the paper, they mirrored they replaced the glass with mirrored glass so that you couldn’t see in there. Well, Brian, you said this this was Vinnie’s first time in the garden. It also isn’t Mike Brown’s first time dealing with an owner who might want to talk some strategy postgame. Uh he he dealt with that somewhat recently in his last stop. So, I’m sure he and you know, you guys know Mike. I’m sure he’s sitting there. He’s like, “What do you want to go through? Let you know let’s let’s go through rotation patterns or whatever. All right, story time. Yeah, here we go. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I apologize. Can this can this take place at the Palace of Auburn Hills, please? I’m sorry. No, it was in Houston. So, the late great David Benner, who is no longer with us, unfortunately, because of cancer. Uh he was the the PR uh head of PR for the Pacers for decades, okay? And he was old school. And back in the 2010s when the Heat and the uh the Pacers were going through their wars, I spent a lot of time around Indie. I loved covering those teams. Roy Hibbert, David West, Paul George, um Frank Vogle was a coach. And David Benner, there used to be this rule, I think it’s still technically the rule, but nobody’s pay attention to it for decades, which is that you’re supposed to be 10 minutes after the game. There’s a 10-minute cooling off period, and then they’re supposed to open the locker room. Well, gosh darn it, the Pacers followed the darn rules and 10 minutes after the game, they would open up the locker room, which to be honest with you, probably was a little too soon. Um, especially with that team. So, one night in Houston, Pacers are there. By the way, this meant that the um the coach and the locker room open at the same time. Bogle would come in right away. And a lot of times you you wouldn’t get the coach, but I know where I would go. I go to that locker room. I got some great stuff out of those Pacers locker room. Houston, great uh road locker room also, by the way. All right. Agree. So, this was sort of the last year of that that rivalry. The the the Pacers had like declared at the beginning of the season that they were going to get the number one seed because they lost in seven at the Heat the year before and they got off to a huge super fast start. Like they I don’t know something like 25 and five like jumped way out in front of the Heat. And in the second half of the season, the Heat were walking them down, walking them down, walking them down. And they were struggling. And so they had this, you know, they had lost, you know, they had probably lost like five or six out of seven or whatever. And they had this bad game in Houston where they got blown out. And so locker room opens up right after the game. So in I go. There’s only like two people in there. You know, Indiana doesn’t have a big road traveling crew. Uh, I don’t remember who the beatw writer was for uh the indie star at the time, but um they always always had good beatw writers, so I’m sure it’s a it was a good one. Anyway, the a a a meeting a players meeting was called while I was in the locker room. Okay. Like like, hey, we’re going to have a meeting. So, David West calls over who he thinks is like the important players. calls over Hibbert, calls over George Hill, calls over Paul George, calls over um you know, I don’t remember if Jeff Foster was still on the team. You know, Danny Granger still a vet on that team. Danny Granger, I think they traded him that year. I think they just traded him. That was sort of an indication of their concern. He calls over this uh this player’s only meeting and starts having a meeting in the corner locker room and like Paul George, it may not have been Paul, it may have been somebody else, notices that Lance Stevenson hasn’t been called over to the meeting in the corner because Lance is over there talking, you know, some trash with somebody else and and uh David West is like, “Yeah, forget about him. just he we’ll tell him what he needs to know. There’s like a forget about him. I just saw Lance a few months ago. Always love seeing Lance, but like literally I was in the locker room so fast after the game that I was there when they had a team meeting, a players only meeting. So that’s pretty. Did you write about it that night? That’s what to say. Did you write about it? I definitely talked about it. Um about how they like, you know, got the It was pretty much the starters plus whoever the lead. It was like six. It wasn’t like the whole team, obviously. It wasn’t like the whole room, but it was taking place right there. I mean, I if I wanted to, I probably could have I didn’t get too close. I didn’t want to get thrown into the shower. Just dropped your like microphone in the middle. David West mic. I wasn’t messing with David West. But, um, those days are long gone. Uh, stuff like that. Um, so anyway, uh, the Knicks are playing better. the whole Eastern Conference. Like I I got a hard time figuring out the East right now, Vinnie. Like um Oh, yeah. You know, Milwaukee is is uh is doing really well. They’re hitting a lot of threes. They’re actually making more threes than they did last year. They led the league in three-point percentage last year. And then Brook Lopez walked and then Dame blew out his Achilles and got released. and Miles Turner, who they brought in to kind of shoot a little bit to replace Brook Lopez, is having a so far not a good shooting season, but AJ Green is hitting everything in sight. So, they’re doing good. Um, Chicago is continuing to win. Um there was uh they had a really good come from behind win over Philly the other night where the last seven minutes of that game Philly basically did nothing offensively and um the Bulls Josh Giddy and Co got him so that was good but like do I trust Milwaukee to keep shooting this way? Do I trust their offense to keep being top five? I don’t know. Giannis is dunking five times a game. Lily’s dunking five times a game. Maybe Ryan Rollins looks fantastic. Also, by the way, that doesn’t just look like a Oh, he’s a nice little story. Like he looks like a rising guard in the league. Props to John Horst for stitching that team together, you know, like so I don’t know, Vinnie, like um this is a Doc Rivers team. This is a Doc Rivers pulling a 50- win season out of your kester when you expect absolutely nothing. Like this is what this is looks like that 2019 Clippers team, right? Like before they got Kawaii. Oh, I covered the first round of that series. That’s rookie Shay Gillis Alexander. He was like defensive specialist for that team. They took the last Durant Warriors team to six in the first round. That is the I’m Kevin Durant, you know who I am series cuz Beverly was was um you know bothering him. Montre Harold. That was a that was a fun Clipper. Steve. Yeah. Steve Balmer loved that Clippers team. He He was He was rocking that arm on that sideline all the time. He loved watching that Clippers team. And then that summer they they That’s what he That’s what he was doing. The kicking the legs. Yeah. Uh in his plaid shirt, you know, he you know, he’s worth $170 billion and he wears like $40 shirts. Um, uh, Jerry West, his you, the late great Jerry West, his last great act, maybe, maybe I just disputed on this, but one of his last great acts was getting Shay Gilders Alexander on that team because Jerry West and Thaad uh, Fa, who is uh, Sha’s agent, um, essentially guided Sheay from Kentucky to the Clippers And that was an extremely and I’m sure it was more than just I’m I’m sure there were other Clipper scouts who liked back then he was just Shay Alexander. Um and um but uh was known as he was Shay always Shay Gildis but he was known as Shay Alexander. um that you know that that you know talk about an all-time what if you know um but you know Doc is uh you know that that team competed every single night it’s one of the reasons they were so lovable in fact when the the the the sort of the newer Clippers teams happened like that was sort of the issue you know Montre and Beverly kind of irritated them that they didn’t compete every night like that team does and I mean look the Bucks are competing every night too. Doc Doc believes that you know like I I’ve heard Doc say like I think this team can win the East. Like I didn’t believe it but like I you know he he sold that he sold that to Giannis. Giannis believes that on some level so that matter part of that is like the lack of a juggernaut in the East, right? I mean I think we’d all agree it’s wide open in a sense. So, and and not just that, my my general question is, and I don’t know if you were going here, Wendy, but there’s no second tier or defined tier two in the Eastern Conference where you were talking about, well, how does Milwaukee look? How does Cleveland, I mean, not Cleveland, how does uh Chicago look? How does Philly look? How does Detroit look? I’m sure like there’s no defined team that’s behind Cleveland in New York as like, okay, this is who’s chasing those teams. To me, that’s what makes the next two and a half months really interesting in the Eastern Conference because Milwaukee doesn’t have the assets to make a move like they’re up against the second apron, right? If you are one of those teams, if you are say maybe the Detroit Pistons, and I’m not saying it’s cuz it’s everything else. No, no, but but just in general, if you are a team that has the assets, the picks, the players to go and make an impactful personnel move because you see an opening because you’re not afraid of Cleveland and New York. One of those teams is going to step up. Like the rosters that we see now are not going to be the rosters that we see come the trade deadline. Like let’s say Orlando gets their stuff together. Atlanta’s a team to watch. That’s because of the Trey Young stuff. But if you are a team like Detroit, do you say, “You know what? Let’s call Danny A and see and see if we can get Danny Angel on the phone and see what it would take.” It would take everything, right? Because Danny Angel is going to rob you, right? But what would it take for Larry Marketing? All right. See, Slater, we were having a nice little early season podcast. Yes. And did I do something? No. No. Vinnie, he he deadlined it up. No, he just he poured some uh he he’s like, “Listen, we’re gonna we’re gonna downshift.” Yes. Yes. This is not the first time I’ve had this conversation. Um could Detroit Okay, so first off, Detroit is six and two. Um and not playing well offensively. Kade is is his numbers are ordinary. I mean, they’re good, but they’re like ordinary. Jaden Ivy’s not really doing much. Um, he’s not playing yet. Yeah, Jaylen Duran and uh and Isaiah Stewart are having some games. Um, but they’re six and two. Um, and they kind of have to look around and say what you say what what you just said and like it’s not the first time it’s been raised to me. They control their draft picks, right? Um, they’ve got tradable contracts on their roster. Um, you know, the, uh, for example, the Duncan Robinson contract was, you know, they they signed him, you know, it was a, it was a sign and trade maneuver. It was an effort to to fill in some of their three-point shooting loss. I mean, but that contract was signed to be able to be used in a trade after December. It was basically a quiet quiet version of the Kaminga contract, right? I mean, it’s not not as much bluster, but kind of the same tool. Well, it’s it’s I it’s a contract that, you know, that I don’t think I’ve ever really seen before, which is that I mean, maybe it’s happened before, but it’s um it’s it was three years and like 45 million, but only the first year was guaranteed. You very rarely I mean, you see some big non-G guarantees out there, but you rarely see only the first year of a three-year contract that level be guaranteed. And then of course, and by the way, I think to I don’t want to Tobias Harris is a similar deal. Yeah, Tobias Harris, I don’t want to like say like, oh yeah, yeah, just trade him because he plays an important role there. He’s really helped them. But right, real talk, Tobias Harris on an expiring $26 million contract. If you want to talk about something that might happen, you know, you talk about that. Also, the contract they signed Caris Levert to in the summer was a two-year contract if they had to very tradable. So, you know, Tjan Langden and Dennis Lindsay, like they think this team might be able to do something, but if you’re looking for a team that can that can that might be sniffing, Detroit’s on the list. And so, now you’re bringing it up on November 6, Vinnie. So, like uh you know, but but I’m I’m in agreement with you. I’m in agreement with you. I I think in the last two fourth quarters, Kate Cunningham in Memphis and last night home in Utah, so take it with a grain. 19 in the fourth quarter in both games. Like he’s he the overall numbers, he got off to a slow start, especially shooting. But that whole clutch thing and recognizing, oh, a game is here for the taking, I’m going to take it. Like that is an element that of maturity that you’re seeing in him. And he’s doing this without a second guy. like Duncan Robinson is shooting 40 from three but on very low volume relative to today’s game just because he’s older and can’t get to the open shots the way that he that he needs to. And their defense I think is really really you know really good. You can play bigger now in today’s NBA like you can play Jaylen Duran and Isaiah Stewart together and you know Ron Holland and the Sar Thompson Sar Thompson. I think guys we’re we’re going to be seeing something here. We can pay a lot of attention to Amend Thompson, but Assar Thompson ain’t far behind. But I think there’s a way there’s a world for them to keep the Assar Thompsons of the world and the Ron Hollands of the world and to get a bonafide second score that can aid Kade Cunningham. And the question you just generally have to ask K Cunningham and not just K not K Cunningham, Trejan Langden and JB Bickerstaff and owner Tom Gores is are you happy with the internal growth from everybody and maybe get to the second round this year or do you want to go for it because you are looking at the East and saying this is for the taking. You should maybe ask Kate Cuttingham too. He’s probably rising to that level where he should manage. It’s kind of comparable. I mean, I Orlando Orlando doesn’t have a player like Cade. They don’t have an AllNBA. Well, I don’t know. Well, Paulo’s supposed to be that. Okay. Okay. Let me take a step back. They might. Cade has proven to be a I think a cut above Paulo. I think Paulo can get there, but Orlando had this same sort of set of circumstances and they went out and got Desmond Bane. Now, they like Desmond Bane because he they liked how he fits. By the way, Orlando’s off to a very rough start. they are they are getting no offense. We’ll talk about them at a later time, but um uh Orlando had the same sort of circumstances and they they were like, “Okay, we’re going to go get a guy that we think matches with our group of players.” You know, they’ve got Palos signed long-term, they’ve got Fran Vagner signed long terms, they’ve got Jaylen Suggs signed long terms. They go, “Let’s go get a guy who signed long term, who fits our group and does that.” And so I think Detroit like I don’t think like what you’re saying I don’t think you go rent a player. No. You know you not going to go say hey let’s try to do this in 25 26 necessarily. But if you can find a player that you think fits next to Cade and next to to Duran and uh you know those young guys. You know today is not the day where this would happen but this is a conversation that other people are going to be having. I think let’s put it this way. This is a conversation that Vinnie brought up that smart people in the NBA are having and and I’m not that smart. It wasn’t me. Like somebody who I think is really smart said it to me this week. What about Detroit? Could Detroit get you know you know what what should happen? Detroit should go for player X, which I ain’t going to say right now because I ain’t looking for aggregation. But is player is player X a pretty spicy name? Would it? No. No, it’s not a spicy name. It’s a name like Desmond Bane who you didn’t necessarily see being traded but would would fit and you know would fit with them. So like because you know we didn’t see Bane getting traded that came kind of came out of nowhere. Um and they paid a premium. Well Detroit’s in position where they could pay a premium and but because they’re in good position on the aprons and because they control all their assets and they got expirings they can do they could do something like that. But you just had a you just Hey, Slater. Yeah, Vinnie is a verified ESPN guy now because he had a sit down interview. He had a sitdown interview with Kade Cunningham. That’s cute. Tell us about it. Oh, well, I mean, I guess that was a segway. No, he’s he’s not quite certified ESPN yet. That was that was the promote it with. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That’s that’s a new thing. Um No days ago now, but No. Yeah, it it came a few days ago. I did the sit down like a couple weeks ago actually. So, it kind of left it w it was uh one of those weird sit around for four hours days. It was it was a day that a bunch of rallies were being held nationwide. I’m not sure if y’all remember that day. A lot of a lot of a lot of things were held that day, but the head coach of the team I primarily cover went to uh one of those. One of the questions that I posed to K Cunningham, and I don’t know if it made the final cut, so maybe this whole thing can be repurposed, but I asked him like, “Hey, you’re not happy being one of the most improved guys in the league.” He said, he’s like, he’s like, “It’s not beneath me, but I’m consider myself somebody who should be in the conversation for MVP.” Like, I’m not shy, you know, to say that. And I think when you look at this guy in his pedigree, number one pick, only worked out for one team going into that draft, you know, the the Kevin Durant, the LeBron’s, the Steph Curry, they’ve all given him the certified stamp. Like he is of a pedigree in a way that we don’t see guys being of of pedigree anymore. Like homegrown American-born players, like that sort of thing doesn’t really exist as much anymore. And I think he I will say this guys and you guys see if you guys rock with me on this one. Players of today’s generation who come up through the AAOU program are by and large so exhausted that they don’t want to be team leaders and franchise guys when they come to the NBA. There’s so it’s too much basketball. It’s too much of the system. I think that’s kind of why you see the Johns, the Zion Williamson sort of are just out of nowhere burned out. Cade has like this diplomat element to him where he understands I’m the franchise guy. Everything revolves around me. Not in like an arrogant way. Oklahoma State. Got to be Oklahoma State. Maybe that’s what it is. Them Cowboys, right? The only problems from Kade is that he’s from Dallas. Like that’s the only issue with Kade is that he’s a Dallas guy and he’s a Cowboys fan. Like that’s that’s the only thing. Other than that, he fits the profile of everything that we say we want out of an NBA superstar. Go to college for a year, take your team to the tournament, go to a bad franchise, lift them up year after year and get there. And he’s kind of on this trajectory where I mean he’s he’s if you think about him in the mode of a Shay or Luca Dantis in terms of big guard, volume, can dominate a game from a bunch of different ways. He’s in that category. Maybe not at that level, but he’s at that category now. Improving significantly, too. Um, I I would am not ashamed to admit I really watch the NBA through a Western Conference lens. Um, and I tuned into two Pistons games. Coastal Elites. There we go. Yes. Um, I tuned into two Pistons games recently, not because of the Pistons, um, but they were in Mexico City facing the Mavericks, and I wanted to see this situation in Dallas, which I think Windor is probably you got you got a segment maybe coming up on the on the Mavericks game. Guys, don’t don’t be getting ahead on the rundown here, okay? This is all organic. Nothing is talked about beforehand. This is just we just have all this information ready at our fingertips. So, don’t pull back the curtain. you know, I watched them, you know, close out the Mavericks in Mexico City. It was like a late night game and then I want to see what’s going on in Memphis. It was it was Jaws first game post suspension and so I’m tuning into the fourth quarter to just see the Jaws situation that you know that’s why I’m watching the game and and within that game I think it was like a a pretty fascinating juosition of two teams and two star guards going in opposite directions is like you know that fourth quarter was going on you just kind of just feel the jamarant era in a lot of ways slipping and within that they were it was slipping that night because Kate Cunningham just seemed so stable you know and and so on rise and just like in control of his team and his franchise and his situation. And again, I’m watching this because I’m trying to watch a franchise that it feels like it’s it’s kind of going the opposite direction and and just within that you’re like, man, like I’m just like, wow, Kade looks unbelievable in this fourth and it’s not this stat line that we’re all going to talk about the next day, but it’s just you can see where it’s going and you can see it’s going that way because of that. Control. That’s where you see you see the control. Jaw is uh shooting 14% on threes. He was a one of seven on Wednesday night. Uh, all right. He’s a top 10 point guard. You guys were at games working on Wednesday night. He is Are you Are you uh You’re disputing Bontemps. You don’t Bontemps is I I get your I get your point that he’s a top 10 talent. He’s just not playing like a top 10 point right now. There’s not a debate on that. Um, you know, Bonteps and I have our Friday intel file that we we uh comes out every Friday and we have a big section on John Morant coming on Friday. And I spent a lot of time this week talking to people about Twamasallo and I spent a lot of time talking to people in Europe about him who know about him and know what he wants and that’s somewhat in there. And um the thing is like Isalo’s system and Assalo himself thought this like he thought this was absolutely perfect for Jaw. He thought this was going to work out great. Like when they made the move off of Taylor Jenkins and the and the Noah La Ro system to the way Isalo wants to play that thought this was going to be perfect and it’s obviously not. And I will just say that I’ve seen this before with guys who come from college or overseas who have these systems or these temperaments that work over there. And there’s no reason why they shouldn’t work in the NBA, but for the most part, they don’t. And we’re still very early into it. And I’m not saying it’s not, but I’ve been around long enough to see the Cavs wear blue uniform so long ago that it’s now a throwback. I’ve been around long enough to see stuff like this. So, we’ll see. Anyway, before we go, while you guys were working at games on Wednesday night, I was watching pretty much from start to finish, but definitely every second of the second half the Pelicans Mavericks game. This was not a Western Conference Finals preview. I want to just say that right now. Props to the Pelicans who’ve crawled up off of the mat and gotten back-to-back wins. And Zion is now out indefinitely with a hamstring. It’s his fifth significant hamstring injury, which is another topic for another day. This was a brutal game to watch down the stretch. I’m going to tell you, I wouldn’t I can’t say this like unequivocally like every possession, but generally without being an advanced scout who knows all of the play calls and whatever, I’m here to tell you Dallas ran nothing in the fourth quarter of that game. Nothing on offense in that game. Look, I got it. I know AD is was is out and that he would be a leveraging point for their offense. I know I know that their star point guard is recovering and they’re sort of in this intermediate zone where they might be getting him back sooner than imagined and so they can’t they ran nothing and got beat on on their home court by the Pelicans who were okay. Sadique Bay like pretty much willed it home. Trey Murphy made a few plays. They were running like they were giving the ball to Cooper flag and saying, “Cooper, see what you got.” And the only way the game got down to the to to a to the last minute was a Daniel Gaffford had a couple of putbacks. He saved her best offense down the stretch of the game was Daniel Gaffford putbacks. Despite all that, Cooper had a wideopen 15-footer at the buzzer to force overtime. And um there was actually a funny moment. So Derek Queen, who um I’m I’m still learning about I learned about these rookies. I don’t have this long I mean I’m not Jonathan Gavone, okay? I’ll never be Jonathan Gavone. I’m still learning about these guys, but I’m learning that Derek Queen is kind of a goofball as I I watched Pelican twice this week. You’re the one that gave me like an AJ Debonsa like deep breakdown. That is different. I’ve spent some time getting to know AJ and and yeah, that’s different. But I certainly wouldn’t tell you like I could analyze his game. Um in the case, you know, I’m still learning Derek Queen’s kind of a goofball. So Derek Queen, I don’t know what he was supposed to do, but he kind of botched the last possession. I think he was supposed to step up and defend Cooper, but instead he like backed up to defend like a lob or something and he like gave Cooper flag a wide open like 15 foot shot. Even though they ran nothing down the stretch, they ended up with a chance to send the game to overtime. Cooper missed it and he was furious. This is the one thing I do know about Cooper Flag. He’s a crazy competitor. He was furious that he missed that shot. Okay. And Derek Queen was his teammate at Mont Verde Academy in Orlando two years ago. And this guy’s got deep background breakdown. I don’t know what he’s doing. He comes up and he’s like, you know, you know that thing that people do, they do the shoulder rub like, you know, the Bontemps is known to do it. I will agree. Bontemps is known to do it. But Cooper Flag did not want to be touched by anybody in the world in this moment. And he sure didn’t want to be touched by the guy on the other team, even if he was his high school teammate. And so he comes up, he has just missed the last shot. And this fourth quarter has been crap offense by the Mavericks. And he’s he’s rubbing his shoulder. He’s rubbing Cooper’s shoulder like, “Hey man, how’s it going? I got you.” Seriously, Cooper might have hit him. And another time and place Cooper might have sw if this was 1975 instead of 2025 Cooper he might have given it to him and then after the game and this was on this was on NBA put this on their Twitter. Um they did a jersey swap and Derek was just Derek Queen’s had a good week by the way. You know he’s finished the last two games they’ve won. Derek Queen was in a great mood. He was swapping jerseys. You know high school friends you know this is great. And uh Cooper was not amused. Like go go go watch it. You can go see it. Cooper’s face says it all. And he got to the postgame press conference. He’s like, I’ve never lost like this. And I’m telling you, like I don’t know what’s going on. Dallas’s situation right now is unacceptable. Well, c can I say something about that quick though? Because it’s it is kind of funny where the short-term goals of the organization and certainly of the general manager who’s like under constant fire are to win now. And they have a bunch of veterans who are going to be extremely upset about the fact that they’re two and six. But couldn’t you take the long view and I know you guys have at times on this podcast and say might be good to be two and six and to give your first overall pick a bunch of battle scars like miss jumpers and because you’re building around him. Is it better for them to sneak in the playoffs? I’m sure the veterans would love that. Nico Harrison would love that for his job security. Or would it be better to just get a top four pick in a loaded draft and rebuild around Cooper long term and get Cooper a bunch of battle scars? You tell me. Look, didn’t we I will say this. I will just zoom out just a little bit. Jason Kidd put the hand the ball in the hands of Giannis Ant Koopa. I think it was 2016 or 17 and said, “Nannis, you’re going to be my point guard.” And it was rough at times, but it aided greatly in the development of Giannis Antakumo to the point where two years later he’s an MVP, but by that point Jason Kid had lost his job and there was all this controversy around that. Right. But he got the battle scars from it. It just looked ugly in the moment. Is that’s what we’re seeing with Cooper Flag right now? Like no, he’s not a natural point guard or anything. Like people know that’s that’s not what he is. And let’s be honest, Kyrie Irving ain’t getting a natural point guard either. And I’m not saying that to crap on Kyrie. I’m just saying even once Kyrie comes back, if he comes back this season, it’s not like they’re just going to hand the ball to Kyrie and Kyrie’s going to handle the ball for 35 to 40 minutes a night setting up the offense. Like that’s not the best use of his talent either. Maybe you’re just maybe you’re trying to hold water. Maybe it’s a bad plan, right? It could just be a overall bad plan. But I understand the thought of, hey, if you gonna have to make these decisions one way or the other anyway, and it’s going to hurt whether you’re on the wing or whether you’re at the top of the key, it’s going to hurt. Last night’s game was going to hurt either way just because of the rosters that have been compiled. Wendy, I’m not that hurt about Cooper Flag getting the scars now. I’m okay with that cuz I think it pays off later. Yeah, generally I think you’re right. Although Giannis wasn’t 18 when they asked him to do it. Um I keep comparing Cooper Flag situation to LeBron’s situation when he was a rookie where that team was just, you know, up a creek and they handed LeBron the the reigns and he was totally ill equipped. And by the way, that team started 4 and 15. Mhm. Um but that team didn’t mind starting four and 15. So that’s that’s that’s where I was going. So that’s the thing like and by the way, Cooper’s comment like Jackson put up the numbers. um his uh he lost he lost three games in all of uh he lost three games three or four games in all of high school and then he lost four at Dukes and the MS are two and six LeBron I think lost seven games in high school and um the Cats I said started four and 15 that year um and there was just LeBron had a mess there were night a lot of nights like this that LeBron you know um but the circumstances of the team were completely different um and so I’m just saying like, and by the way, what ended up happening with that team was midway through that year, LeBron’s rookie year, they went out and traded for a point guard and everything worked so much better. And yeah, down the line, LeBron was ready and I guess he learned some lessons from that, but um you know, I’m I’m not going to say that a game in no first week of November defines the season. I’m just telling you like that was a rough situation there and Cooper was out there trying to do something and he was in the deep end of the pool thrashing around which again it’s fine for an 18-year-old like that’s all cool but like give him some help somewhere somehow otherwise you’re going to be four and 15. Yeah. Yeah. And and that would be really really bad for a lot of the current employees of the Dallas Mavericks players front office all that for sure. But I could hear an argument that the 10-year plan of this franchise is it might not be horrific for the direction that the for the franchise. Well, you’re talking about a 10-year plan. They’re on like a 10-minute plan. I know. Their two their two best players are in their 30s. Um, all right, guys. I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much for uh we’re gonna we’re gonna make this a thing. I like you, too. I might keep you guys around in the collective. I’m I’m making it a goal anytime us three are on a podcast together, I’m going to somehow get y’all to do at least one Central Division story time. I’m not that old Slater. I wouldn’t have predicted the Pacers were going to be the one today, but that’s it counts. I loved covering that team. You know, another quick story from the Pacers locker room. Got two. Um I’m I I I don’t remember which year it was. It might have been that year. Um, but the the Heat played the Pacers in the conference finals and on the last play of the game, I think it was game one, LeBron got a layup to the rim. Remember it? Yeah. One was at the like right within a second to win the game and off an inbound. It was like Yes. And uh Frank Vogle had taken Roy Hibbert out of the game. And um once again, the Pacers, much respect, they’ve been there 10 minutes. That locker room is open. And in Miami, there is not really a there’s a coach’s office, but it’s really small. And it was back then. And the the the the video coordinator was set up in the middle of the locker room. And so I come in the locker room and Frank Vogle is with the video coordinator on the screen watching the play, watching the last play for the first time. And uh I go uh he goes he’s watching it. I’m watching him watch it. He goes, “Run it again. Run it again. Run it again.” And I’m watching him take in watching how they botched the the design of the last play and he just just put his head in as a championship head coach now. not trying to take a, you know, this guy got him to the conference finals and he just puts his head in his hands and he was like, “F because and I, you know, I got to see that raw.” I mean, it’s really awesome that I got to see that. And um, by the way, there’s another, you remember a couple years ago when the um, when Derek White was w with the Celtics and the Celtics pulled that game out of their rear end when he hit that that putback layup. Yeah. Yeah. It was on the Heat, right? Yeah, it was on the Heat in the conference finals. Um, and that was where both, you know, Jimmy Butler like they went up to Boston and they had that amazing win. Then they come down to Miami and it looks like they’re dead and they win game six, force game seven. So Derrick White hits this putback layup and everybody goes to the postgame press conference and they open the locker room and I’m now in the Celtics locker room and there’s nobody in there and the and the layup happened like seven or eight minutes earlier. I maybe 12 minutes earlier. Okay, these are rare times and I know so many of those Celtics players well because those guys were on Team USA, you know, Marcus Smart and Derek White and Jaylen Brown and and Jason Tatum. I know all those guys from hanging out with him in China, okay? You know, being in Manila and stuff like that. So, um I’m in there and Derek White hasn’t seen the play yet. He hasn’t seen the play. and Worldwide Wob, our man our man on X had tweeted out like a four box of four different angles and I remember giving Derek my phone and getting letting him see the four different angles of the play. He hadn’t seen the you know they didn’t they didn’t have the replay there yet or the guys were hadn’t seen on their phones yet and he got to see the four angles of like the the shot of his life to that point. Like those moments are cool. Well, they’re few and far between because they don’t open locker room and there’s reasons for that, but I’m just saying that’s pretty cool. It’s not It’s not as bad as people think. There’s It’s still open. It’s still raw. It’s still fresh. You cover the Golden State Warriors, Anthony Slater. That’s a different world. The rest of us 2025. Come cover a Warriors road trip. The Listen, I’m just saying like all the I and I told all these I wrote all that story that night. like you know the storytelling gets better with access. That’s my point. So um all right, thank you Slater. Thank you uh Vinnie. Thank you to Jackson our producer. Thank you for watching and listening to Hoop Collective all week long. Uh and we’ll talk to you guys next week.

Brian Windhorst is joined by Anthony Slater and Vincent Goodwill to talk Russell Westbrook’s turn back the clock night, if the Warriors’ early season injuries are a concern for the aging team, the sustainability of the Knicks finding their stride and how wide open the Eastern Conference is. Plus, could Detroit be a potential buyer at the deadline and are the Mavs hurting Cooper Flagg’s development with the squad’s current structure?
0:00 Intro
0:55 Throwback jersey nights hit home
2:43 Turn back the clock night in Sac 
9:47 Early season healthy concerning for Warriors?
16:47 Knicks starting to find footing
23:21 Windy story time: 2010’s Pacers
27:42 Eastern Conference still wide open 
32:54 Detroit ready to take the next step?
45:00 Friction between coaches and Ja
46:40 Mavericks offensive struggles continue
56:04 Windy story time: Bonus Pacers Story
58:01 Windy story time: Bonus Celtics Story

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