Did Saints QB Tyler Shough take a step back? Is Kellen Moore in over his head?

Did Saints QB Tyler Shough take a step back? Is Kellen Moore in over his head?

From Fox 8 Sports, this is the Overtime Podcast from the Gulf Coast studios in New Orleans. This is the Fox 8 Overtime podcast. I’m your host Sean Faz riding shotgun is each and every podcast is Andre Johnson. Do not forget to do very important remember the JR at the end of the name. Before we get into today’s content, be sure to like, to share, to rate, to review. If you are watching us on YouTube, please do us a favor, hit that subscribe button, get the bell notification for when we drop that via content. Also once again, hello to the GF Coast Sports and Entertainment Network. Glad you have found us here. Please stay here. Please tell your friends about us here. We understand the two professional teams on this channel struggling a little bit, but bigger and better days are ahead. I can promise you. So, that’s that. Speaking of that, uh it is not a victory Monday. The Saints had a little momentum going into the Saints Falcons game Sunday. I was there. You were not there. You uh did some producing back here. I was back here. You were back here. I didn’t miss much. Um disappointing effort. Uh really? Yeah. I left that game for the not for the first time, but just I was disappointed. I just I you know, I was expecting more. I I expect them to be a little sharper. It just was not the case. So, we’re going to obviously get into all of that today on this Monday, Thanksgiving week, so it’s always fun. Um but first things first, how you feeling? You know, I’m feeling good. not as good as I was on, you know, LA two weeks ago when we had victory Monday or even the moral victory Mondays that we used to have. You know, this is just pain, suffering, and disappointing Monday because taking a loss is one thing. The Saints have taken plenty of losses this year, but taking a loss to that darn team in Atlanta, it just hurts a little more on a Monday. It does. Um, and look, they outplayed the Saints. uh despite the Saints having several opportunities to take control of that game, maybe even win that game or keep it a competitive game towards the end, they weren’t able to do so. And it and it followed a yet again a familiar script. Um you know, um early deficit, never led the entire point in the game again and they lose their biggest nemesis, their biggest nemesis coming that were banged up. They lost five straight games. Saints were coming off of a buy. They were healthier. got a little momentum with a win to to really kind of play that the way that game played out was certainly frustrating to watch. And obviously it was start number three for Tyler Shuck. Um and that’s where we’re going to go with part one of the big picture day. The rookie’s third start. Yeah. You know, Tyler Shuck, he played the best game of his young career, the best game that any quarterback has in black and gold in at least a year or two a two a couple weeks ago against Carolina. But he followed it up with the Falcons game where he went 30 for 43 passing, 243 passing yards, 22 rushing yards, zero touchdowns, one interception on the final play of the game. So, looking at the Tyler Shuck that we saw beat Carolina, comparing that to the Tyler Shuck we saw yesterday in the dome, did Tyler Shuck take a step back on Sunday against the Falcons? Well, you hope not, but let’s just be real and be fair. Um, my biggest concern with Tyler Shuck showed up. That concern being the by-week, that concern me more than anything else. I said it multiple times last week that the team may have needed a break after 10 weeks of action, but Tyler Shuck did not after just two weeks of action. And perhaps that break would disrupt um the the the rhythm, the flow that he was in at that game where he was feeling it. Um and maybe it would disrupt that. And I thought that showed up on Sunday. I really did, especially early on. He did not look completely comfortable in this game, Andre, until the 2-minute mark of the first half where he went on that two-minute drive, got him in scoring position. Then we know Blake Groupy ended up missing the field goal. I think he had five straight passes. But before that, um, it took him a while to get settled in. There was the fumble on the second play of the game. I don’t know who you blame that on. It was a play action. You see him kind of stick stick the ball in. He’s looking up. Uh, Alvin’s going like this and his his his elbow kind of pops the ball out. I don’t know who you put that on. He put it on himself. I don’t know. We get didn’t get a chance to talk to Alvin, but I do know second play of the game after you get a three and out, crowd is into it. It was as loud as it’s been all season inside the Superdome and fumble the ball in the second play of the game. It just it’s tough. Um if you go back to the next drive of the game, they get the big kickoff return. He got sacked five times. There was two sacks that were on him. One of them was the first sack of the game where he ran into a sack on that second drive after the big kickoff return. Now, once he got into the flow, final drive of the second quarter, I thought he played pretty well. I thought he looked really in control. Those two 15 play drives to start the third quarter. He made some nice throws in particular worked. The second level, middle of the field in the underneath area, the Falcons did a pretty good job of taking the top off in this game. um got them deep in position to make plays and to take points and to um perhaps take over the game, but you have to finish. Think about what the Saints did to the Ram to to the Falcons. The Saints did to the Falcons what the Rams did to them a couple of weeks ago in the third quarter. The Rams only allowed the Saints three plays in the third quarter. The Saints only allowed the Falcons three plays in the third quarter. And yet, look at the difference in the result. The Saints were dominated when that happened to them. And yet they lost by two touchdowns uh when the Falcons did it when they did it to the Falcons. Um the Saints held a 23play edge in total plays run. They won the time possession battle and look at the different outcomes. So offense. So if you look at Tyler Shuck’s performance, if you actually break down the film, break down what he actually did, break down the decisions, the throwing, he was not as good as he was against Carolina. He was probably similar to what he was against the Rams. But in the Rams game, they were able to score a touchdown and a field goal. I believe was was the final score of that game. I don’t know, but it was more than three points. I know that it was a lot. So, I will end with this about Tyler Shuck. He was okay. But I kind of feel like we’ve said that a lot about whoever was at quarterback right now. So, I’m certainly not going to make an excuse for him. When the offense scores three points in a game, somewhere in the line of people to pin it on, the quarterback must come up. I’ve said it multiple times, multiple times, multiple times. He did have some nice throws against Atlanta. Um, like I said, they did a good job of taking the deep ball away. Um, he did for the most part avoid the big mistake outside of the fumble on the second play of the game, depending on who you put that on. Interception last play again. I don’t really care about, but I thought he was a little cold to start the game and I thought that was the same way he started against the Rams. Uh, and I I think the by-week played a little bit into that. Um, unless we see that happening from here on out, then maybe it was the Carolina game that was the outlier and this is what he does week in and week out. Um, I thought he kind of resembled the Rams star. Bottom line, the offense had their lowest scoring output of the season. So, I’m not here to to praise Tyler Shug. I’m not here to say he was awful. He was the main reason why they lost, but I’m not here to give him uh a glowing review. So, final grade, given the fact that he was pretty similar to what he played against uh the Rams, but they scored less points, um I gave him a C. I gave the rookie a C in that performance. What say you? You know, I haven’t addressed this fan base in a while, but the Rat Pack might be watching this with baited breath. They probably are. They’ve been waiting to see. If Tyler Shuck had a bad game, will you hold him to the same standard that you held Spencer Rattler to? I’m holding him to the same standard. I gave him a D+, okay, for the game on Sunday because at the end of the day, Tyler Shuck was not good enough. That’s what it comes down to. Tyler Shuck was not good enough. And this is the guy who gave him nay against Carolina. I was very impressed against Carolina, but that guy didn’t show up in the dome on Sunday because when you look at the fact that I mean, they were 0 for three in the red zone. Now, we’re going to get to the coaching in a few minutes because that had something to do with this as well, but they were 0 for three in the red zone. Tyler Shuck had plenty of opportunities. I think they ran nine plays within the nine yard line. Tyler Shuck had plenty of opportunities in the red zone to score 0 and three in the red zone. Two turnovers. You know, you could argue, you know, the fumble was on Shuck or Chimera. Maybe it’s a lack of chemistry between two guys that probably haven’t worked out that, you know, with each other for very long. You can look at the interception on the last play of the game. I think he’s just throwing one up. But at the end of the day, 0 for three in the red zone, two turnovers. Yes, Blake Groupy missed two kicks, but you were in a position where your offense failed two times for Blake Groupy to have to kick two kicks that he missed. My plus the one at the goal line essentially that he finally made. So, when I look at the team, it was the question I had on Friday’s podcast and it was a very important question and it showed itself on Sunday. I said, “Can Tyler Shuck overcome?” Because the game that they played against Carolina, perfect on every front. The defense was great. They ran for 122 yards. Receivers were catching. Groupy wasn’t missing. Everything went as planned. But I asked on Friday when the running game isn’t going. When Alvin Chimera gets hurt in the first quarter, when you go 28 carries for 79 yards, less than three yards per carry, and Tyler Shock was your leading rusher at 22 yards, can you still get the job done? the defense actually played well, but when the other team scores 24 points instead of seven points, can you outscore them? When Blake Groupy is out there missing kicks even though you got him in field goal range, can you overcome? And the answer was no. I mean, Tyler Shuck couldn’t seem to get anything going consistently enough. He couldn’t build up a rhythm. He couldn’t connect on that patented deep ball that we always say. Tyler Shuck’s always going to throw it. He couldn’t connect on one. you know, we saw a lot of escapability in the pocket against Carolina. We didn’t necessarily see that against Atlanta. A lot of times he was sacked, you know. So, when I look at the offense, who the Saints lost 24 to 10, seven of those 10 actually came from Justin Reed, the defense. Yeah. So, the offense gave you three points. Zero touchdowns scored. Mhm. I cannot look at the quarterback in a game where the offense scored three points and said the quarterback had a good game. I’m rooting for Tyler Shuck. I like Tyler Shuck, but I got to call it how I see it. And you also have to take into uh account this wasn’t the Buffalo Bills. This wasn’t the Seattle Seahawks. This wasn’t an elite team. This wasn’t even the San Francisco 49ers. Mhm. This was the Atlanta Falcons, a team on a five-game losing streak. a team coming off getting smacked by Bryce Young, a team with a backup quarterback, a team that the Saints were actually the favorites against. Both you and I looked at this game several times over several weeks and said, “That’s one I think the Saints can win.” Yes, it’s an intense rivalry and you can throw the records out the window cuz teams are going to play harder. The Falcons are going to play harder than the Saints or against the Saints. The Saints are going to play harder against the Falcons, too. That’s a game you should have won. That is a game Tyler Shuck should have played better in that. This isn’t a game where, oh, you know what, the Saints are the scrappy underdogs and they did their best. They just No, that’s a game where you were better than that team. You had less injuries than that team. You had a quarterback that was playing better than Kirk Cousins has played so far this season. A quarterback coming off his best game of the season. A defense coming off one of their best game of the season. You’re rested coming out of a buy. There were so many reasons that the Saints should have won that game. They did not. a lot of reasons, but quarterback play has to be at the forefront of those reasons. Yeah, it’s up there. I mean, it’s up there. Um, I didn’t think he looked quite as confident post snap. He wasn’t able to climb and navigate as well as he did against Carolina. Um, Duce said after the game that the, you know, basically the game of film, they do they know he wants to step up and climb through. Those DTackles were kind of waiting there for him, not kind of getting up the field. They were just kind of hanging in uh into their lanes. When he stepped up, he was having much more difficult time breaking away. He broke away a couple times, but when he did it, he wasn’t able to make the same plays post snap that he did um against Carolina. Look, that’s the NFL and that’s the rookie that that’s the that’s a rookie working his way through. Um I will say for me, you know, you look at the key plays throughout the game. For me, it’s the zone read on first down. He’s about the five or six yard line. He gets it. He keeps it and he’s right there. He gets in right there. I think the whole the whole dynamic of the game changes at that point. Um instead, he said at the game he didn’t want to stick the ball out cuz it was only uh was it first or second down? Yeah, it was first down. Uh that they knew we’re going to have another chance at it. But as they kept kept getting closer and closer to the goal line and they weren’t able to punch it in, they just kind of ramming against a brick wall. Ram against the brick wall. That play right there was to me the closest it felt like they were going to get in the end zone and it wasn’t able to happen. they got stuffed on the quarterback sneak on the next play. There was a wall. I don’t know why he didn’t go over the top. But um it felt like uh had he done that maybe they get a score and then obviously you know what happens when the Taesm play the drive before that um they they call the TAM he ran another play got near the goal line got really close wasn’t able to get in and then they ran a Taesm Hill play on fourth down. It didn’t work. Um so yeah man it just it just didn’t feel like it flowed quite as well. Um it didn’t feel like he had quite the same connection with his offensive line. It didn’t feel like he had quite the same trust in his ability to move and navigate like he did against Carolina. And we’ve said this multiple times. You know, just because there are imperfections on a play does not mean the result of the play is not the quarterback’s fault because it was the circumstances weren’t perfect. I mean, we did that with Spencer R seemingly every week it felt like um if there was any slight imperfection in a game, then uh thus it could not be his fault. We’re not going to do that with Chuck either. So, it’s you got to be able to offset some of those imperfections. If you want to be franchise material, if you want to be middle of the pack, backup spot starter, maybe be a maybe be a starter, lowend starter one day, then fine. But if you want to elevate, you have to elevate in those imperfect situations. And I thought, um, he did against Carolina, he didn’t do it as well against Atlanta. And, you know, um, go back to the film room. You have to learn what you did wrong, learn, understand what other teams are doing because now they’re all studying you. So now they’re going to try to take away which they feel like you do best and you got a counter. That’s the NFL. Um and if you can’t do it, you’re not going to be a great one. So, um you know, we were talking last Monday about, you know, needed to see a few more, but if we do, he could be franchise material. Did Did he Did he take a step back? I thought, um I thought, yeah, he probably did. He wasn’t quite as sharp. He was This was This was You gave him a D plus, I gave him a C, C min, whatever the case may be. This was a a below average to average performance and I think they needed more from him this week. That is true. And now that I’ve been critical of Tyler Shock, I will give him a little grace here. And we know this. He’s still a rookie. Yeah, of course. We We didn’t declare Spencer Rattler. We both said we didn’t think Spencer Rattler was that guy. We didn’t say it after his third start. Yeah. We gave him what, 14, 15 starts before we said they got to move on. Yeah. This is Tyler Shuck’s third start. He has to take his bumps. He has to take his lumps. He has to make mistakes. He has to have his bad games to know the things he can do, the things he can’t do, you know, the things he can get away with when dodging the defensive line, the things he can’t do. So, it’s he’s a rookie. We’re going to take this with a grain of salt. We’re going to see if he can build on this because now they go to Miami, a team that’s also coming off a buy and they had a little momentum going into that buy. If you get to Miami and we can see you building off of this Falcons game, I couldn’t care less what happened on Sunday. It’s just a part of the journey. So, it’s about building on performances, the good ones like Carolina and the bad ones like we saw against the Falcons. But once again, you touched on it. It ain’t all Tyler Shuck. I mean, I told you 28 carries on 79 yards. Your quarterback was your leading rusher with 22 yards. You couldn’t get the ball going on the ground. The offensive line, the Falcons blitzed 15% of the time yesterday. lowest of the season for the Falcons despite blitzing 15% of the time. They had 19 pressures and five sacks when they rushed four or fewer rushers, which is a season high for them. So without blitzing, they got consistent pressure on Tyler Shuck because you’ve got what, two backup offensive linemen and whatever’s left of Caesar Ruiz. That’s not going to work. You got Luke Forner snapping it high over Taesm Hill on the pivotal third down play. that’s gonna work. And on top of that, you’ve got certain coaching decisions that we’ve touched on throughout the season, but now as you look at the way this offense looks in the second half of the season, you really got to start asking Sean, does it feel like Kell Moore is over his head? That’s an interesting question. Um, because this was really the first Monday where I woke up and I was like, man, that just that was not a good job by Kell Moore. It just was not a good job by Kell Moore. And sometimes I have to remind myself like you said with Tyler Shuck being a rookie and by the way at least you’re not seeing the chaotic, you know, oh wow, during the headlights look with Shuck. I’ll give him that. At least he’s established that floor. But that’s obviously not good. It’s different topic day. But in Kell Moore’s case, you know, I do have to remind myself this is a rookie head coach. Um because Sunday was one of those games where I left as as much as I’ve ever been as frustrated with Kell Moore as I was that was that was it on Sunday. I was more frustrated that Sunday than I was any other time. Um, and I I I didn’t like the tone they set offensively. First time, first chance to get some real momentum in the season. Real momentum. I mean, a great performance, young rookie quarterback, well-rested, banged up team, back at home, biggest rival, and his side of the ball once again came out sluggish. And it was sluggish when it came to details. Um, was interesting. You look at the the third down numbers, they actually had better third down percentage. They had a 23 ed 23 play edge in total plays run. Duce said they ran 5 they ran 51 plays in the second half and yet could not get over the top. They won time possession, but they still could not run the football. They still could not establish the line of scrimmage. And you can feel that anxiety. I don’t know about you, Andre, but with every inch in those two 15 play drives, which is really where the game was lost, let’s be honest. those two 15 play drives. Um once they got deep into the red zone from the nine to the eight to the you can just feel the anxiety building and I just think he got he got a little too addicted to Taesm down there. Way too much Taesm and frankly we need to have a real discussion about where Taesm is right now. What he is capable of doing right now. What he is not able to do right now because it’s not an automatic anymore. the throw they tried on the fourth down play did not work. I know they hadn’t really tried that yet this year. So, it was a new wrinkle to what they were doing, but it didn’t fool the Falcons. Um, and the way that that drive had been going to call a Taesm pass right there was certainly an interesting play call. Um, the first play after the kickoff return I was talking about with Mason Typton, um, they called for a TAM run and went for no gain. That’s early in the game. That’s a young quarterback. Let’s get him in the flow of the game. who had just had a big mistake obviously with the fumble. Above all else, it just felt like it didn’t flow with Kell Moore’s usage of Taesm Hill. It felt like more more importantly, it almost felt like it interfered a little bit with Tyler’s progress, especially on those longer drives where he was starting to get in a little bit of rhythm to have to come. It wasn’t like it was a big play to get downfield, quick strike, use T real quick, change of pace. No, it was very methodical and it was but they were getting down there. They were converting first downs. they’re using a lot of those first level, second level throws. So, it felt like Sunday the constantly taking him in and out, in and out, in and out down in the red zone. I felt like that stunted him a little bit that in terms of his progress. And I if I were Kell Moore, I’d probably have to rethink that both for Tyler, but also for Taesm because as I said, I just don’t think it’s automatic anymore. And then look, this is probably a topic for a soul podcast, but Kellen Moore could have ended this Blake Groupy situation weeks ago. Okay, weeks ago. And Groupy is still here at the timing of the taping of this podcast. It could change by the time we’ve taped our next one. And Andre, it’s it’s it’s costing games or it’s coming very close to costing games. Just think of yesterday, okay? If he makes that just that first field goal, I think that was the 38 yard or whatever it was. Then it’s 3-3. Okay. So, if Atlanta comes down and scores, it’s 10-3. Then when Justin Reed picks it off and returns it, it’s now 1010. Then it’s 13-10. And you get the drive right before halftime. Okay, let’s just say even if you miss that field goal, but if you make it, it’s 1313 right there. But if you miss, give them one miss. Then they get the field goal at the end. It’s 16-10 and you’re going backtoback drives, those long drives with a one-sore game. I just think the math is totally different. I think the approach is totally different. I think you’re probably uh approaching it much differently with those type of situations. Um and so it’s not just the misses with Blake Groupy, who is obviously battling confidence issues this year. It’s the cumulative effect that those misses have in a game. And when your offense is trying to find its footing, they haven’t found an identity yet. You’re still figuring out the quarterback situation. you’ve had a lot of coming and going when it came to personnel, when it comes to trading and whatnot. Um, and and releasing certain receivers. You need those points. They are precious this year and they’re just not getting them despite being I counted four scoring opportunities yesterday. Two red zones and the two missed fields. So, call it five. And they got one they got one score and that was a field goal out of it. That’s just unacceptable. So, to me, you give out the way they came out against Atlanta, they just look sluggish. the decision to use to overuse taste man. I know Alvin got hurt so might throw threw um the change their plans a little bit based on who they had available and then obviously um what is the need to hold on to Blake groupy at this point? There’s just no need there’s no that he had no loyalty. I know Phil Galliano is a special teams coordinator, but I mean this this this this story should have been ended a long time ago and I just think right now Kell Moore is learning on the job and I think it’s showing right now because I thought he struggled struggled Sunday against Atlanta. Yeah, like you you know I was doing the math too. I said if Blake Group after he missed the second kick I said if Blake Groupy makes both of his kicks you’re going into the half tied 1313. But with Blake Groupy missing I believe it was a 47 yard. You give the Falcons incredible field position. They drive down, get an easy field goal. Now it’s 16-7. That’s a lot harder to overcome than, you know, like 1313 or like you said, 1613. But, you know, when it comes to Tyler Shock, I give him a little grace. I say he’s a rookie quarterback, yada yada yada. I give Kell Moore a little less grace because he is a rookie head coach. He’s not a rookie play caller. No, he’s not. He’s not a rookie offensive mind. He’s not a rookie offensive coordinator. He did that for several years in several locations. The reason that you brought him here is because he had a successful stint as offensive coordinator with the Super Bowl champions. We haven’t necessarily seen that. I mean, we’re what 12 weeks in and the Saints still have zero offensive identity. We still don’t really understand what this offense is going for on a week to week, even a drive-to drive basis. The offense has zero creativity. I mean, and I just I would like to see him stop taking Tyler Shuck out in critical situations. Third and four downs because at one point that Taesm Hill QB power, you were probably converting 80 to 90% of the time with that. At this time, I think the league knows it’s coming and Taesm Hill’s not the superior athlete to where he can still make it work, you know? So, at that point, I’m like, do I trust Taesm Hill to even be a better option to get a third and one than I do Tyler Shuck? I think Tyler Shuck on a QB sneak. Me, too. Or someone who’s a good at design QB runs can probably get that on a zone read. Is Taesm Hill at this point of his career really more reliable than, you know, Tyler Shuck on his own read? We know he’s not as good when it comes to throwing the ball. You know, I mentioned the Eagles. They had a signature play for the two situations that the Saints failed in on the goal line. What do you do in Philly? Line up in that big formation and get to pushing the good old brotherly shove, the tush push. Saints have tried to run it this season and it’s been flagged twice this season. Kell Moore hasn’t even been able to get his signature play off the line. So, when I look at the lack of continuity in the offense, when I look at the fact that Taesm Hill is his usage is up, but his production’s down. When I look at the fact that Tyler Shuck is coming out in critical third and fourth downs, and we’re judging Tyler Shuck based off of the drives that he’s not finishing when he’s not even having an opportunity to finish those drives. And like you said, the choice to keep sending Blake Groupy out there. You the head coach, you have a large say in who your kicker is. And we keep sending Blakey out there when everybody watching this podcast. Look, we all don’t agree on everything. We have certain opinions here, certain opinions there, but I think we all on the same page and saying it’s time to move on from Blade Groupy. Of course. Absolutely. And you know, even if you didn’t want to cut him, you just wanted to just, hey, we’re going to pull you back a little bit. Just we’re going to give you a couple games to just to just relax and think about it for a sec cuz it’s in your head right now. I wouldn’t be okay with that. But to me, this this can’t go on. That’s why you saw the Justin Tucker kicker workout, the K York kicker workout coming on Tuesday. Look, if this the first time they brought kickers in this year, it should have been happen that it just I he’s having a hard time finding the true pulse of the team and I think he’s just a little off in reading the room right now and reading the situation. And I think that has got to get better uh when it comes to that cuz instincts are instincts and I think right now he’s struggling a little bit with that. I mean, we could talk about this all day, but we got to go. Thank God because that was a game was that was tough to watch. Anyway, we got to get out of here. For Andre Johnson Jr., I’m Sean Fazan. We’ll catch you guys next time on Overtime.

Sean Fazende and Andre Johnson Jr break down the #Saints loss to the Atlanta #Falcons, and the disappointing performance of QB Tyler Shough and head coach Kellen Moore