What’s wrong with Evan Mobley? + Early season concerns & surprises for the Cleveland Cavaliers

What’s wrong with Evan Mobley? + Early season concerns & surprises for the Cleveland Cavaliers

[Music] Happy Thanksgiving from the UCSS family to everybody out there. There is no full UCSS show today, but you get an hour plus of Cavs content, plus some other new content on the Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show channel. We got an hour of Cavs, though, and it’s be unfair to do a Cavs show without my dear friend Jason Lloyd. Jason, happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. I will see you in a few hours as I pop by for a quick little uh Thanksgiving visit. How you doing, my friend? And uh what’s on the Lloyd family spread for today? Uh I think it’s the standard fair turkey stuffing, potatoes. So, you will get treated to the old Italian traditional stuffing, which I can’t stand, and then the more Americanized stovetop stuffing, which I actually really like. Uh, so yeah, I don’t think it’ll be anything crazy. We’ve done some exotic Christmas caterings that you’ve been around for, uh, from worldclass chefs. We’re not going all out like this. This is just a standard turkey and some Mama Joe’s pies for dessert. I think. Well, I’ll be there for some some apps at some point. I appreciate you uh having us over, but we got to talk a little cabs here, Jason. And we’re going to start with something that I’m not ready to say that the two people on UCSS that their last names start with L are taking an L on a topic. However, our Evan Mobley needs to be their best player, and this is the year he takes that massive jump. Is not off to a great start in 19 games. And earlier in the week, I did a whole post on how I think Evans split between two different roles. He was kind of the focal point and forcefed into the offense early. He’s been taking a step back in the last 11 games. He just to me looks like he’s lacking some confidence and he’s a guy that certainly needs confidence to be at his very best. Jason, before I dive into my diet tribon, my frustrations with Evan Mobley early on in this 2025 2026 season, what have you made of the start to the year for the reigning DPOI and second team allNBA forward? Well, first of all, you know how much I hate being wrong about anything, so I’m going to make sure that the record is clear on this. You because this this got misconstrued before on the show. You and I thought prior to last year, Evan had another gear to his game. We were pretty adamant about that and we were shouted down. We were right. We were right. The point that I made after last season was if the Cavs are going to win a championship, Evan has to be the one that takes them there. He has to find yet another gear. I don’t recall ever saying he has another gear to get to, but for the Cavs to win, he has to get one. Does that make sense? So, he made the leap last year and he turned into a terrific player. A terrific player. My whole stance since the end of last season has been, guys, you know where this goes with undersized guards. We have plenty of experience on this. If they’re ever going to win a championship, it can’t be with Donovan. It has to be with Evan. Now, if he doesn’t have another gear, then he doesn’t have another gear and he’s still a really good NBA player. And that’s the disappointing thing. Like I think the criticisms of Evan to this point are fair, but I also think that we need to like look at it and go, “Hey, this is still a 19 and8 all NBA defensive level player.” That’s a career year and a and an incredible get for most guys. The issue with Mobley is Jason, I think he has so much more inside him to bring out and be even better. And you see it in flashes, but it’s the inconsistency that’s maddening. I don’t know if it’s confidence or if it’s just a lack of aggression. I just like I I was I was going back and watching the Toronto game and the way he got pushed off his spot and the way he got pushed around by Scotty Barnes. That can’t happen. Like Scotty Barnes cannot outmuscle Evan to rebounds and and like so like I think there’s two things to this. the the the idea that I got the one possession where they double Evan and they they pick his pocket and Evan is sprawled out at midcourt laying flat on his face and the Raptors get an easy bucket at the other end. Okay, well maybe that’s what we’re talking about here. You’re trying to see what his ceiling is and if he gets capable of doing other things and these are things he hasn’t shown before that you’re trying to get to. That’s one thing. But when you’re getting pushed around underneath and and you’re getting outplayed at things that we know you are elite at, that’s where I’m like, what is going on? And and so that’s maybe maybe you’re right. Maybe it’s a confidence thing. I see it as just a lack of aggression and just being too passive at times and like you can’t take seven shots in a game ever. Unless you leave in the first quarter with a hamstring, you can’t have seven shots in a game. I think, correct me, I think Naquin had outshot him. I think Naquin Tomlin had more shots. Uh Naquon had eight, Proctor had nine, Lonzo had 15, Donovan had 20. He had the six most field goal attempts on the Cavs. This can’t happen. No, DeAndre, no Jerry. It’s Well, and Jason, of those seven, only one came in the fourth quarter. Yeah. And you know, I I remember having the conversation last year during the playoffs about, hey, Ty Jerome can’t be getting more shots than Evan. And just a couple guys around the locker room like, yeah, I know we got we got to fix this. we have to address this. Tai had that dog in him that I’m the best player on the court whether you think so or not. And like Evan needs some of that Tai F you attitude that that Tai had when he was here. And Evan just he just doesn’t possess it. And again, we’ve seen him take such leaps over the last 18 months. uh that I I don’t want to just crap all over him because he’s done a tremendous job of elevating his level to the game where you and I thought he could get to and he got there. Is there another gear there? Maybe this is the Miles Garrett conversation that we had, right? Like you just think that there’s more in there and and maybe eventually he’ll get to it. But for for for what Evan is giving them, if this is all he has, that’s a really really good NBA player. Is it a franchise pillar top five player in the game? No, it’s not. So, I don’t know where you go from here. If they don’t win it this year, I don’t know. They they’re they’re going to have to make changes to this if they don’t win it this year, period. Like, they just because of where they’re at with the apron. I just I’ve come around on that. I’ve kind of done a 180. I thought they could run this back one more time and I after I I just don’t think that’s the case. They’re going to have to make changes. So Evan, uh, if this is what he is, that’s a great player. I’m just not sure it’s enough to win. If Dean Wade scores 18 and grabs eight boards in a game, we’re like, that’s an incredible game for Dean Wade, right? We want more from Evan Mobley because we think he’s better. And these conversations, I know they come off as us ripping Evan, and we are, and he deserves it for how he’s played for the first 19 games. You don’t rip players who you don’t expect more from. Yeah. The reason the reason we want more from Evan is because we’ve seen at times Evan do things that he doesn’t do consistently that he hasn’t been doing consistently this year. It just feels like a missed opportunity because with Darius missing as much time as he has being in and out of the lineup. This is the this is the moment for Evan to grab hold of this and they’ve tried to force feed it. It just hasn’t worked. Uh I’ve been of the stance keep doing it. You have no other choice if you want to win a championship. That’s what I want to get to, Jason. I don’t know what the right answer to the next part I’m going to say is. I I do not know what the right answer is, but right now the flip-fpping and the back and forth between Evan, you can be the focal point. You know, we’re taking that away from you, Evan. We want to put you in places that you’re more efficient. I feel like the Cavs have to just pick a lane and at least for the first 40 games, the next 20, just pick one or the other. If you want to see if Evan has more ball handling skills, more creation ability, more focal point of the offense, initiator type stuff to his game, then live with the results over the next 20 games and let him work through the the the growing pains and the lumps of it because we’re never going to know if he can if he doesn’t get ample opportunities to do it. And it may be ugly, right? Like it could be ugly. Yep. But I’ll use your son as an example, Jason, because I’ve already used seven basketball references in the second part of the show that you guys haven’t listened to yet, but I recorded earlier. When you learn a new pass rush move, you know how you get better at doing it? Doing it in games. And you can practice against the practice dummy that doesn’t move a thousand times. And guess what? You’re going against a real offensive lineman. You’re going to find out if it works or it doesn’t work. And then you could tweak it on the fly as you continue to get those live game reps with it. There’s only so much you can do in practice that allows you to actually replicate game speed, game situations, guys helping the craziness of an NBA game, the speed of an NBA game, while also reading the defense and figuring out what’s the best play to make. So, if you’re going to let Evan be the creator, go let Evan be the creator. And who cares what Joex3 from Parma on Twitter says when you lose a random Thursday night game to the Detroit Pistons or whoever after random Twitter user Carlos Sanchez Esavst the 31st doubledef says the regular season like who like none of that matters as long as you figure out what this team can and can’t do before the playoffs and you and I are still in agreement that if this team is going to win a championship it’s not going to be with Evan playing like he has through the first 19 games, right? Correct. The current status of Evan Mobley, is not good enough for the Cavs to win a championship. Darius Carlin told or not. They need Evan to be better and he needs to be more efficient. His 18 and N this year, Jason’s coming on lower efficiency and he can’t make free throws. If he was making his free throws right now, he’d be a 21 point per game scorer. If he shot just what he shot last year, he’d be a 21 point per game scorer. And this may be like a whole different conversation. But the truth of the matter is that the Cavs want to win a championship. as good as Donovan and as good as Darius is, as good as Kenny as a coaches, as good as Jared Allen and DeAndre Hunter may be, they’re not winning with Evan Mobley at this level. So, you have to make an organizational decision. Do we want to see what Evan has and see if there’s another level to his game that he can unlock over the next 20 25 games before we have to start preparing ourselves for a playoff push? Or do we want to go back to what Evan did last year, say we’re happy with a second team allNBA caliber player because that’s exactly what he was last year and there is nothing wrong with that, right? and just put him back in that role. But this back and forth, this flip-flopping, Jason, I don’t think it accomplishes either. And I think in the long run, it’s actually hindering us figuring out what the ceiling of this Cavs team actually is. I would tend to, although I’m not as confident, I would stick with what I’ve been saying and you just I just don’t know what the alternative is. What is What is more likely? Uh what what gives you how how best way to frame this? What’s more likely? Evan can figure this out and can lead this team deeper than the second round. Or you go back to the way that you played last year and you’re counting on the health of Darius and Donovan not to break down at the most crucial point of the season, which they both have done in the past. Like you’re just you’re just it’s it’s the definition of insanity to go back the other way and just say, “Okay, well, we’re just going to go do what gave us success last year because it got you regular season success. It did not get you postseason success.” And I have defended them at times and said there’s a lot of injuries, you know, had they been healthy. But this this is part of their history. This is part of who they are. The injuries are part of who they are, particularly with Darius. Evans had or I’m sorry, Donovan has had calves the last two years of the postseason because the heavy load that he has to carry. So, you’re expecting you’re trying to do the same thing and expecting a different outcome. I’m not sure. Uh I would rather ride this out for at least another 20 games. Yeah. and see. I don’t see what the downside is. If you lose seven more games than you would have otherwise, so what? Who cares? It doesn’t matter. And and yeah, I mean, you know, we’re going to go on and we’re going to holler about it about this doesn’t look the same as last year, which I I think is a good thing actually. and people and Bull and Garrett and Jay are going to yell that Evan sucks and Evan isn’t this and Evan isn’t that and you guys are wrong and maybe I mean maybe but the I I’ve seen the alternative time and again. So, I would like to forge ahead with this. And if we get to mid January and this looks the same, then maybe we can have the conversation of, okay, well, we’re going to have to play the insanity game, go back to the way it was, and hope that it just leads to a different outcome. Hopefully, these guys can stay healthy for a two-month stretch when you need them the most, and maybe you can get a different result. Uh, I just think there I actually think there’s more risk in that. No, it’s ins we can spend all summer saying the regular season doesn’t matter, Jason, and then get upset after a few regular season. I totally agree. And you’re going to have to go through some bumps and some lumps. And I just think to your point, the alternative of just going back to status quo. I mean, yeah, the East stinks. So maybe you could catch a break like like and maybe it was the Cavs year last year and injuries were the whole reason they got derailed, but I just you know Daryus already got hurt in a non-cont injury on that injured toe. Donovan’s playing out of his freaking mind to start the season. Is that sustainable? The last two playoff runs he suffered. I know his usage rate is lower. He’s he’s getting to the rim less in an attempt to preserve it. Like I get all the stuff. It sounds great on paper, Jason, but in reality, when the Cavs need to score late in these games, it’s Donovan going balls to the wall and those are the pressure minutes. Yeah. I’m just not giving up that Evan can’t do some of the stuff that I think he wants to do. I don’t think he’ll ever be Kevin Durant. Like, let’s let’s be clear, like he’s not gonna be Durant, but I do think he has more creation than he’s shown. His handle isn’t good enough to be the focal point every possession. But go back and look at and I should have had this prepared and I don’t but I I’ll I’ll put in the description. Brett Usher, who does these highlight mashups last year when Moy was named second team all NBA put together a mashup of Evan scoring off the dribble. He has it in him. It’s there. Like we’ve seen it in spurts. Yeah. He doesn’t have to do it every possession, but the more he does it now and the better he gets at it now and at least learning he can. You know what? I guess I I’ll end with this, Jason. Let’s say they gave him 20 more games, right? Said, “Evan, we’re going to run the offense through you regardless who’s there and it’s a disaster and he just shows us he can’t do it.” Then guess what? in the playoffs. I’m not gonna be screaming saying, “Hey, your offense needs to run through Evan because the two sh at least we’ll know, right?” And just like with Dylan Gabriel, six games wasn’t enough to make a full determination. Even though I think it really was, but that’s besides the point. Like six games of Evan Mobley being the focal point of the offense isn’t enough. I saw this breakdown, Jason. It’s it’s going to cover the screen, so you have to look closely here. Okay. On the left is the first seven games. On the right is the next 11 games. the difference in Moley’s per game involvement percentage. It was 40% in the first seven down to 31 and a half. His on ball percentage 21-6. His points are down. His assists are down. His potential assists are down. His rebounds are down. His turnovers down. His true shooting is up because he’s shooting less creation. His usage rate down from 24 to 21%. His assist rate down from 18 to 16. Basically, everything’s gone down since they took that creation away from him. Right. That’s fine, but like let’s seven games just isn’t enough of a sample size. And we’ll let’s see what it looks like with Darius on the court. Two things I want to mention. The spacing for the Cavs without Darius, without Strus, without Merrill. And Merryill’s missed a bunch of games. Has been absolute dog poop. Yeah. You know, it’s hard for a guy who’s not a great ball handler to do. Beat extra guys when the spacing is worse. So, I think the spacing will help Evan give him more space. But this is the thing that frustrates me the most, Jason. When Evan’s offense isn’t working, we’re seeing lapses this year in his rebounding and his defense. And yeah, the seven shot attempts against Toronto, I can’t live with that. I also can’t live with five rebounds in 30 plus. He is too big, too skilled, too talented, too coordinated, too athletic to have five rebounds. And there were games earlier in the season where I thought he was taking some weird angles to protect the rim. And I just thought last year, even though he’s not Webby, his basketball geometry was was damn near flawless. He had a PhD in angles and how to just distract the shooter even when he wasn’t in the best position. I feel like he’s just taking some bad angles this year. And I’ve played enough basketball and I’ve been in enough shooting slumps to know when my shots not falling. Yeah, my defense fall. I don’t I don’t rebound. Like I literally told my college coach. My scholarship does not include rebounding. If you want me to rebound, you got to pay me more. Like that that that wasn’t part of my game. But like yeah, my defense would slack when I wasn’t making shots because it’s demoralizing. You want to make shots. Yeah. Evan’s way too good of a defender and way too impactful and the Cavs need his rebounding way too much to allow that part of his game to slump off when his shots not falling. I think to me that’s more frustrating than any of his offensive lows this far. Yeah, I I I can’t argue with that. Um I don’t know. I you you mentioned KD. Nobody’s asking him to be prime KD. Nobody’s asking him to be prime LeBron or prime Giannis. The Cavs have such a good supporting cast around him. I mean, right now they have in my mind two really, really good number twos in Donovan and Evan. Like, both of those guys are extraordinary twos on a championship team, but you need Evan to be the one. And he’s got a lot of support in Donovan and Darius uh behind him, but he just had if if that’s just maybe I hope I’m wrong, man. I hope that they can win a championship and if this doesn’t work with Evan that Donovan’s the one that leads them there. I just think that we have overwhelming evidence. I mean, Don played on some really good Utah teams, too. Never made out. One seed in the West one year. Yeah. Never made out the second round. Like that’s what I said on the show the other day. Have we not in Cleveland seen enough postseason basketball over the last 10 years? And I’ll go back to LeBron’s first stint here for old people old enough to remember to know that the postseason is a completely different game than the regular season. So whatever works in the regular season, man, that don’t mean it’s going to work in the playoffs. And I just think that they just have to keep banging against that wall right now. It is too soon to abort anything. It’s November and it’s frustrating and disappointing that this was a great opportunity for Evan to take advantage of with Darius being out. It didn’t happen and that’s too bad. But that to me that doesn’t mean that you stop now. Maybe maybe we’re wrong on that. I mean, I’m not selling my stock. I’m certainly less high on it. I’m not hoarding it like I was to start the season. I’m not selling. But this is the first time I’ve had some serious concerns, Jason, that he may not develop into the player I thought he eventually could develop into. And to your point earlier, if this is who Evan Mobley is, it’s a damn good basketball player that 30 NBA teams would die to have on their roster. Yes. Yes. Every team would take him. Every single team in the league would want Evan Mobley on their team, except maybe Oklahoma City. And even they would take him. They were hot after him. They they they I mean, they were rumored to really like him on draft day. Well, at the draft, they were hot after him. Yeah. They really really wanted him at the draft. I just it was that was more of a talent joke on how much talent there is on OKC. Yeah. Uh, my mouth was moving faster than my brain on that because OKC really loved Evan coming out of the out of the draft. Real quick, 30 seconds on this, but this year’s OKC team fully healthy vers 17 Warriors fully healthy sevengame series. How’s it go? Warriors in no more than six. I said six. I had Warriors in six. I just think their offensive f as good as OKC is defensively, Kevin Durant is an undefendable player. Steph Curry is an undefendable player. Draymond was at the peak of his powers. Klay Thompson was out of this effing world. Yeah. And they were way better defensively than they got credit for. They struggle to guard OKC in the same realm. But I just that that’s too many Hall of Famers versus OKC was a bunch of really good players. I would argue that 17 Cavs team was better than the team that won the championship and they had no shot. I I was fool foolish enough going in that series to think Cavs might get them. They they had no shot in that series. And that team was to me that team was better than the team that won the championship. That 17 Warriors team was loaded. Unbelievable. All right, Jason. In some other news that we need to get to, the Cavs started last season on fire. 15-0. They lost their first game in game 16. I actually don’t know what the record was through 19 games with the Cavs this year, 12 and seven, third in the East. You’ve talked about this a little bit. I just want to touch on it real quick here before we wrap up and get on with our Thanksgiving. Do you think in a way they’re actually in a better spot now going through these learning pains and these trials and tribulations early than they were last year when they got off to that scorching start and nothing could go wrong? Yeah, I think it’s way better this way. And like the the undefeated streak was fun. like it was a great start. Nobody Nobody I The Cavs caught so many people by surprise last year with that start that yeah, they were a good team. They made a coaching change. They weren’t no one was really sure yet. They never ran from the fact that they were going to make an evident a focal point of that offense and they did. Uh but they still caught a lot of people across the league off guard by the way that they played and they never really faced adversity because of it. Uh when did they when was the first time that team really faced adversity? It was Indiana. Indiana series. Yeah. Little late for that. And I think the way that they I think they lost their composure a little bit. I think they panicked a little bit. Uh and it it showed and it cost them. And so this is way better like it and and Donovan and you can’t always believe what the players say from the podium because lot a lot of times they’re just saying what they’re supposed to say. But whatever game home game it was Donovan said I I love this and I I tend to believe him on that because I agree with them that like this is really good. It’s it’s it doesn’t matter if they’re 12 and seven after 19 games. It doesn’t matter if they’re 10 and 10 after 20 games, which obviously they’re not. But 500 in January. Yeah, it it doesn’t matter. And and so to get stuck in the mud a little bit right now to have some of the personnel losses that they’ve had now, uh you know, I mean, Naquin Tomlin is playing out of his mind. So, how you may not have found that out if you had a fully healthy roster right now. So, now if you need him in May, you’re going to have a fair amount of confidence to put him out there, which sounds kind of absurd. And I I don’t know yet that he’s gonna be out there in May. But all these guys, Jaylen Tyson will be and he would have had that opportunity even with a healthy roster, but he’s another guy that’s taken full advantage of the role in front of him. So this there is no downside to this, I don’t think. Uh yeah, get frustrated, lose some games. That’s okay. And I remember, we’ve talked about this before, when Donovan first came here and I said, ‘Would you ever just punt on a game just to teach a lesson because that was the old LeBron trick. And Donovan was like, “No, I I have to win every game I play. I’ll take every shot and make every shot if I have to to win every game.” And I’ve seen that mindset evolve and change in him and the time that he in the years that he’s been here to where he doesn’t think that way anymore. And you know, how many times have I said on UCSS, the regular season is about building habits and figuring out what works and what doesn’t work when you get to the postseason, playing left, all these things. So, I I’m not at all concerned about this team right now. I love the fact that they’re kind of in the mud and I think it’s only a good thing. You know, you obviously want to win. Like, it’s a lot more fun. 150 is a lot of fun, Jason. Like, go back. Remember the city? Yes. And the excitement bowl was like watching games for once and he he knew what he was talking about because there was nothing bad to like it was a lot of fun and like I do miss that. But the truth is when everything’s going right and everyone’s making shots and everything just going in your favor like you don’t really learn a lot about yourself. I think what you said about not facing adversity early is spot on. And yeah, you’d rather be 15 and0 than 12 and seven or whatever they were after 15 games, but you’d rather be 15-0 with 15 fourth quarter comebacks and like the growing pains to win. I’ve heard how many coaches countless say you learn more in losses than wins, right? You learn more about what worked, what didn’t work, what you can do, what you can’t do. It goes back to the Moy thing, right? Like if you don’t really care about the wins and losses, you can let Moley do some things that you may not let him do in the playoffs because you want to see if he can or can’t do it right now. You know, we let I shouldn’t say Never mind. I’m going to scratch that. I was going I was going to make a reference to UCSS, but it may get someone in trouble, so I’m not going to do that. Um, you know, you let growing pains aren’t linear, I think, is the best way to put it. And the way you find out the best version of your team sometime comes when you hit rock bottom. Yeah. Right. Not saying rock bottom where you lose seven games in a row and you’re out of the playoffs and you have to have a gut check moment, but rock bottom of shoot, we’re not as good as we thought we were. This ain’t working. Can we win playing this style? Can we beat Indiana? Can And hell, screw the East. We beat OKC Houston and Denver, which is the real goal. Like, yeah, maybe the finals would be awesome. Don’t get me wrong, but no one wants to just make the finals. The goal is to win the championship. And the teams out west, those top three teams are absolute juggernauts right now, Jason. No. And you know, it’s not going to be perfect. It’s not going to be flawless. Progression isn’t linear for everybody. It’s not linear for every team. Sometimes you go in cycles of you get better, you take three steps forward, you take four steps back, but you don’t know what those steps are if you keep winning. And as dumb as it sounds, 15-0 was a blessing and a curse because they weren’t able to diagnose any of their legitimate issues that came to fruition in the playoffs because when you’re 15 and0, what are you changing? Nothing. And they were shooting out of this world. You’re not going to make tweaks at that point. You make tweaks when you lose games, when you shoot poorly, when your shot diet’s all out of whack. Like, that’s when you make changes. And I, in a weird way, I agree with you, man. I would rather be 15 and0. It’s a lot more fun to be 15 and0. UCSS does bigger numbers with the Cavs when it’s 15 and0. Trust me, would have been great. But the truth is, I think in the long run, this is probably more advantageous to them. Yeah. Than they would have been if they repeated their hot start from last year. I know it’s bat bonkers crazy to say, but I I genuinely believe it. No, there’s a lot of merit to it. It’s a lot of merit to it. All right, last thing, Jason. Yeah. Very, very, very last thing. Jared Allen’s not playing in the fourth quarter for the Cavs right now. Yeah. Do you think that’s temporary? Is that part of the trial and error rotation system that Kenny Atinson’s using? But to me, it’s my two cents. You’re paying the guy $30 million. Gave him another contract extension. Well, I don’t know why you give a contract extension to a guy you don’t believe can play in the fourth quarter is all I’m going to say. Uh I don’t mind that he’s not out there because I thought they should have dealt him after last season. And I know that uh that’s easier said than done because of where they’re at with the cap. It was going to be very hard for that team to make any changes and we can scream and holler about what they should and shouldn’t have done once they traded for DeAndre at the deadline last year. They sort of sealed their fate as a second apron team. And I know they looked hard at a bunch of different moves and nothing really came to fruition, but uh I I just I I thought it had run its course last year with Jarrett. Uh so I’m not terribly surprised that he’s not getting fourth quarter minutes, and I’m not necessarily sure that that will change. Uh who knows? We’ll have to see who’s healthy and who’s not in the playoffs, obviously. Uh but I won’t be shocked if Jarrett is not playing in the fourth quarter playoff games. That won’t that won’t shock me. It’s wouldn’t shock me because I actually think it’s probably the right decision. I like closing with DeAndre Hunter at the four, but they’ve had some games recently where they’ve closed with Dean Wade out there. I’m like, if Dean Wade’s the wing you’re having out instead of Jared Allen, then I’d just rather have Jared Allen space. That’s surprising. I agree with you there. And granted, they’re missing guys. I don’t think when Darius is back and some other guys are back, that’s how they’ll close. But if Dean Wade is the option, and I love Dean, like no offense, Dean, you’re my guy. I appreciate you, but like you shouldn’t be out in any closing lineup unless it’s a one-stop defensive possession when you have Jared Allen on the bench. I just I don’t agree with that. So, uh Jason, thank you very much for joining us this Thanksgiving morning. We’ll get part two with M. Perry coming up in a sec. And Jason, I’ll be over your house in about uh 45 minutes. Enjoy. Happy Thanksgiving. We’ll see you guys on the next side of this break. All right, guys. It is time for the second half of this Thanksgiving edition of the Ultimate Cavaliers Show and as always it is sponsored by FanDuel. FanDuel is America’s number one sportsbook and right now they are giving new customers an incredible deal. If you head over to fanuel.com/uss just like you see on your screen. If you’re a new customer and you bet $5 and that $5 bet wins, you can win up to $300 in bonus bets to use anywhere on the app. So make sure you head over to fanuel.comuss to get in on the action. is America’s number one sports book and also a proud sponsor of the ultimate Cleveland sports show. And with that, I wasn’t going to do a second half of a Thanksgiving Cav show by myself. Thanksgiving’s about friends, family, and Cavaliers basketball. And that’s why I’ve brought out my good friend, my guy M. Perry to talk a little early season Cavs. Mack, happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, man. How you doing? Thank you. Same to you. I’m doing well despite some underwhelming Cavaliers basketball that we’ve seen as of late. But I come to this show with a uh with a hope going into the holidays. It’s a good way to put it. Uh I always like talking to Mac and it’s the perfect parallel to Jason who’s always negative because Mac tries to be as optimistic positive. See the bright side and the powerful kind of thing. Jason’s the opposite. So you got a little yin in the first part of the show. You’re going to get a little yang here. But we are going to talk about some of the early season struggles or some of these Cavs with a little gimmick I call are you worried yet? So basically Mac, here’s how it’s going to work. I’m going to give you something that I have observed in the early portion of the season. You tell me if it’s something I should actually be concerned over or if it’s just a 19 game sample size and it is way too early to get myself worked up. Sound good to you? Sounds great. Jason and I talked about Evan Mobley, so I’ll save the Moy one for a little bit so it’s not going Moby back toback. Let’s start with Lonzo Ball. In the most recent Cavs game on Monday, he was three of 15 from the floor, two of 12 from three. He’s shooting 30% from the floor and under 30% from beyond the arc. Mack, am I crazy for thinking that Lonzo Ball has forgotten how to shoot a basketball? No. And listen, anybody who’s interacted with me on social media knows that I tried to have a positive outlook on Lonzo Ball, especially after this acquisition. From a theoretical standpoint, Lonzo brings a lot to the table in terms of two-way play, but the shot making has always been something that has fascinated me with Lonzo because he’s never truly been an efficient shooter in terms of overall from the field. Where he has saved himself has been the catch and shoot. Now, he is capable, fully capable of the pull-up jumper. And probably to a lot of people’s surprise, Lonzo Ball’s actually been more efficient this year on pull-up triples than he has on catch and shoot. He’s actually 10 of 25. That’s 40% on pullup triples this year. But I think the most damning part about watching him go out there and play sometimes is the shots come out of rhythm. He’s jacking them up. He’s forcing them. And due to the fact that Lonzo is just not necessarily a driver of the basketball, everything feels forced in terms of the shotmaking if he’s not being set up in the left or right hand corners of the court. And so it’s it’s ugly basketball to watch when the shot isn’t falling for him. And it really it just hasn’t fallen all season long. So I don’t think you forgot I don’t think you’re crazy for suggesting that he’s forgotten how to shoot because the shot itself it just looks ugly right now. It’s out of rhythm. It It’s not coming within the flow of the offense and it just it feels like he is trying to shot chuck his way back to some semblance of efficiency. Mac, I gotta be honest with you, man. Lonzo was the second most exciting part of the Cavs entering this season for me. Seeing how they incorporated him into the flow, seeing how he helped elevate guys around him, seeing how his style would play off of Donovan and Darius. And so far, like, you see parts of it where it’s like, yeah, that’s what I wanted. That’s exactly what the Cavs envisioned. And then you see performances, and last night’s a prime example of it, or Monday night, excuse me, a prime example of it, where if he’s not making jump shots, and you tweeted out earlier the week, and I thought it was a great observation. He has to trust his body to drive more. And right now, teams aren’t even respecting the notion of him driving. So, they’re just playing up on him. And if you’re not a great shooter, you know what’s really annoying, Mac? Having a guy up in your grill and not allowing you to get that extra space needed to put off that jump shot. He’s also not a heavy pick and roll player. So right now he’s kind of in like isolation land and the defender knows you don’t really want to drive. You’re not trying to get past me. You’re trying to go lateral east to west, not north to south towards the basket and we’re just going to close out that space and make you shoot over us. And he’s got 29 drives in 15 games. That’s that’s 1.9 per outing. That is just for a Cavaliers offense that should be able to operate pick and roll heavy with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. That should not be the case. Not enough. No, it’s not enough. And you know, when you’re a really good shooter, Mac, and you can go back and listen to Steph talk about this, Durant, Clay, you go through slumps. Like, that’s part of the game. The best baseball players in the world go through slumps. The best golfers, the best everything. Athletes go through slumps. And when you go through a slump, you have to fall back and rely upon the foundation that got you here, right? Go back and look at the Lonzo Ball jump shot when he was at UCLA and earlier in his Lakers career. And then look how it’s kind of transformed when he was in New Orleans and even partially in Chicago and now what it is in Cleveland. He has revamped his jump shot over the course of his professional career. And that means he doesn’t have 15 years of muscle memory to fall back on to build that confidence as Malcolm Gladwell. It’s a 10,000 hour rule. I’m not saying Lonzo doesn’t put 10,000 hours in on this jump shot, but he doesn’t have 150,000 hours like a Steph Curry does or a Kevin Durant or an Elite. Just Sam Merrill for example. even a guy like that who when they’re going through these slumps, they can fall back to the basics. So, I am worried Mac and I’m curious if due to some of the medical issues he’s had over the last couple of years, he simply doesn’t trust his body to withstand the physical contact of getting to the paint and trying to finish around the rim. So, he’s just floating on the perimeter. And if that’s the version of Lonzo the Cavs are going to get, that’s like, I don’t know, 53% as effective as I think he should be in some of these lineups and situations. Well, when you look at the totality of his pro career, he’s never driven more in any singular season than 387 times, which came back during the 2017 18 season way before he sustained all of the subsequent Yeah. Yeah. Like I believe that was his rookie year. way before he sustained all of the surgeries and rehabs that he’s had to go through. And I think there is a mental aspect to this of, hey, we’re early on in the season possibly. I don’t want to risk sabotaging the care, you know, my whatever career that I have left at this point, whatever health that I have left at this point by potentially jeopardizing it on a drive during a regular season game. But I don’t think you can operate that way. I think that there has been space allotted to Lonzo in spec specific possessions and games where the the defense could potentially be hurt by the dribble penetration, especially when the Cavaliers need it the most. You don’t have Darius Garland where last night in particular, you didn’t have Darius, you didn’t have DeAndre, you didn’t have Craig, all these guys that are capable of putting the ball on the floor and generating those rim pressures. And without Lonzo doing that, his utility on offense, it it it is it’s not nullified, but it’s it lowers the ceiling a lot because at that point, the defense knows they can just play him straight up, they can get right in his face and force him into some rather ugly jump shots. And so if this is the version that we’re going to get where like he’s he’s literally he’s driving 1.9 times per game. If that’s the version that we’re going to get, he may find himself in situations where when Craig is healthy, they sit him in in place of Craig at times. And I don’t want to see that because I think at his best, the ceiling for Lonzo due to his two-way play can be very impactful for him, especially come postseason where defenses change. Yeah. I just I I’m starting to feel as if the version that we’re seeing right now might be who he is at this moment in time until from a mental standpoint he can just let loose and trust his body. All right, next concern here, Max. Speaking of trusting your body, Darius Garland came back after the toe surgery he had this off season. played three games, got hurt in the third against Miami, went out, sat out a few games, he played two games uh to end last week, set out on Monday against the Toronto Raptors. When he’s played, the guys have looked completely different than when he has not played. But Mac, am I crazy for thinking I just can’t trust Darius’s toe? And I’m sorry, I hate to say that, but I just I can’t trust it. H this is such a delicate thing because part of me wants to say yeah you know he’ll he’ll find a way to become impactful due to his playmaking especially in the operation of the pick and roll which I mean you see I mean he’s still driving 12.6 six times per game when he’s out there. He hasn’t been efficient when he’s attempting shots out of the pick and roll, but he has made a very very uh high effort to get Jared Allen, to get Evan Mobley and some of the other bigs, really just everybody out there that he’s operating out there with uh involved from an offensive standpoint, but he clearly like trying to put trying to put weight down on that other foot that is that is injured. It just it feels as if this is going to be a lingering issue all season long. Similar to what we’re hearing about Max, right, where this could be something that’s bothersome into the latter stretches of the season. I don’t know if Darius is going to completely be healed even come April and and May. And and at that point, even from a physical standpoint, you transition to the mental of it all. Is Darius gonna be able to lock in and and truly trust his body? Like you mentioned, I I don’t think it’s crazy to think that this is going to take some time, too. So, it while the impact out there, the net rating, and just the overall aesthetics of it all looks a lot better when Darius is on the floor because the defense has to actually account for him with the ball in his hands. I don’t think it’s crazy to be concerned about the season, at least this year, for Darius to return to some semblance of, I don’t know, 75, 80, 90% of himself. Yeah, I’m not worried about the shots. His efficiency hasn’t been good in this couple games he’s played, but whatever. He’s working his way back. Missed most of training camp. Like, hasn’t really been in an NBA speed of a game yet, so that’ll come back. Daryus is so skilled. When he’s on the court with this team back, they look like the Cavs from last year. They look fun. He’s getting to the pain. He’s getting people involved. If you watch just the like quick 10-minute cutup that YouTube posts from the game against the Pacers, it’s like, “Oh, yeah. Darius is awesome at this. He’s getting to the paint. He’s using pick and rolls. His little hesitation to the lob to the alley dunk. He had one to was it I forget Moi or Allen or what? Whatever it was, he’s getting to the paint, kicking to the corners. The ball’s moving. Other guys are attacking rotations. They’re getting their closeouts again. The drives go back up. Their passes go back up. The touches for the bigs go back up. everyone kind of falls into the place they’re supposed to be when Kenny Atinson and Kobe Alman sat down and envisioned how this roster fits together. Then when he doesn’t play, it doesn’t look like that. I saw my guy Luke over at realcavfans.com. He tweeted out this stat. This was prior to Sunday’s game, so it maybe changed a tiny bit. But the Cavs three-point rate in games Darius hasn’t played up until that point was 61 a.5%. And when Darius plays, it’s like 43.5%. It’s almost a 20 point difference when Darius is in the lineup versus when he’s not in the lineup. and the Cavs at 43 and a half percent three-point rate is a very dangerous offense. The Cavs at 60 plus percent, I don’t think it scares a lot of teams, especially when the guys like Sam and Darius and Streus aren’t playing because they’re not a particularly great three-point shooting team to be shooting that many threes. I am concerned because it’s a toe. Toes are ficky. Look at Brock Pury at the NFL. He’s almost has the exact same injury Darius has, by the way. And he was supposed to come back for three weeks. They kept pushing it off and off and off. He came back. He looked good last week. He looked horrific on Monday night against uh Carolina. It’s a toe. Like the bone in Darius’s toe that broke is like yay big, Mac. Like seriously, it’s like yay big. There’s no cast for that. There’s nothing you could really do. I mean, Max, the bone in his foot that he broke is like yay big, too, which is why you have to wait for it to fully heal because it’s so fragile. I I I know I asked the question, am I crazy? I actually think it’s crazy for anyone to say they do have confidence that Darius can stay healthy just because he got reinjured after taking five months off on a non-cont play. So, it wasn’t even like he got stepped on, jammed it. It’s a non-cont play. That’s the the shitty part about having a minor toe injury is it could happen on any given play, Max. So, uh yeah, I I love when Darius plays. I think he’s actually the most important player on the team in a weird way. If you didn’t already enter this season understanding that or believing that, then I think this season, the start to the season has reinforced that idea. I know that he hasn’t been out there that long and the sample size is short, but in the 106 minutes that he’s been out there, the team has an offensive rating of 130.7 juaposed to 118 when he’s off of it. Yeah. Say that again, Mac. I cut you off, but that 130 is number one in basketball. 118, let me tell you, is not. Say that stat again. Yeah. I mean, when Darius is out there, when he’s been out there, he’s been out there 106 minutes. The offensive rating during that those lineups is 130.7, which is uh it’s just it’s astounding because the net rating plus 20.4 when Darius is on the court juaposed to plus 5.8 when he is off of it. His impact is is just immeasurable. It feels like at times it you can tell like from a film standpoint even if you don’t look at the advanced analytics of it all you can tell how he orchestrates this offense matters and I think it just really points to the fact that point guard play in a league that has devalued the position a lot lately. Point guard play still matters. All right, next one. M because I want to make sure we end on a good note. We’re going to talk about Naqucoin Tomlin and Jaylen Tyson today. That’s that’s no concerns there. That’s all positive vibes only. But the next one, I’m frankly concerned the Cavs can’t rebound when it matters most. And there are certain matchups and Zubach last week was the perfect example of guys that just are terrible matchups. And I don’t know if they have a fix to it. Frankly, I think that when you look at the roster that the Cavaliers have constructed, they don’t have many guys that want, at least that’s how it appears. They don’t have a many guys that want to be active on the glass. They have guys who can, right? I’m a big believer that Jared Allen evolably can rebound, but they got to be locked in. And it it seems that they check in at times and and and out whenever it suits them from a rebounding perspective. The positioning, the effort, these are all things that are in their control, right? And I think from a roster standpoint, really, if you go player by player, there aren’t many guys that that make you feel great in regards to that. The names that you mentioned already, Jaylen Tyson, Naquan Tama, these are guys that will attack the offensive glass. You may not see it in terms of traditional offensive rebounds or rebounds overall, but I mean, you look at what the advanced analytics say about what Tomlin has done in limited action. Nine games thus far, the team is in the 99th percentile in terms of offensive rebounds when Tomlin is on the court at 9.1%. Now, for a a player that is on a two-way contract, a guy has who has limited action, you do have to take that with a grain of salt as he’s obviously hungry and he obviously wants to make it. But when you look at him, when you listen to him talk, when you just watch the film, this is a man that is very, very passionate about basketball and you see some of those same things from Jaylen Tyson. But from a rebounding perspective overall, as you mentioned, when matchups like Zubac, who absolutely obliterated the Cavs in one matchup last year, I know we all remember that one. That’s the one that sticks in my mind. Yep. Um I don’t necessarily think that they are built for those types of matchups. And that’s with Tomlin, that’s with Tyson, because at at some point, your bigs, your Jared Allens, your Evan Mobies have to take it upon themselves to actually want to do the dirty work. And this is not me trying to pile on them at all because I do believe that they’re capable, but this has been a recurring issue for seasons now. And I don’t I it’s not just something that’s crept up. It’s something that we’re continuously seeing. I don’t know if I ever told this story on the show, so if I have, you’re going to hear it again real quick. If you haven’t, this is new. You guys know I play D3 basketball. And when I signed my scholarship, I told Coach O’Brien, “Just so you know, you’re not paying me enough to rebound.” Now, I’m a 5’8 guard who stands in the corner and shoot threes. I thought I was being funny and he laughed it off and he’s like, “You’re not nearly good enough. You’re not gonna play anyway. Whatever.” The reason I hate rebounding, Mac, is rebounding sucks. Rebounding legitimately sucks. If you want to go jump and battle and fight, it’s it’s basically a fight down in the paint to get a basketball. And you’re fighting with the biggest, strongest, toughest, most athletic guys on the court. And it’s more of a mindset than it is a skill. There is some skill to it. Don’t get knowing tendencies that the shot comes from the left wing from said shooter. Where is it more likely to bounce? Positioning matters, but at the end of the day, a lot of it’s effort. A lot of it just heart, determination, grit, toughness. I want the ball more than you do. And we can say a lot of good things about Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, DeAndre Hunter fits into this build as well. And they do a lot of really good things on the court. I don’t think any of them have that inherent mindset of when that ball goes up, it is mine. It’s not going to be yours. It’s not going to be JA’s. It’s not G. It’s my It’s my ball, right? And a guy like Zubach has that. And that’s why there’s guys who are undersized. Kenneth Reed comes to mind as a perfect example. who were great rebounders despite the fact they’re 67. I know Fred was listed at 69. Trust me, he was not 69 and or good athletes, but like they kind of just want it more. And rebounding is it sounds simple and there we could get into the X’s and O’s if you really want to, but a lot of it just comes down to effort and the want to and the determination that this ball goes up, it’s going to be mine. And the fact that the Cavs every time they play a gigantic center and Zubach most recent example, he just you just can almost pencil in the over and the rebounds because they don’t seem to have that want to. Now that can change. This falls into my early season struggle or real concern. I think this is more of an early season struggle that can be corrected, but I think it’s valid to have concerns because this isn’t the first year it’s popped up. Like this has been an issue in prior years as well. It can get corrected. It’s not just on the bigs. Rebounding is a fivep person effort. The guards have long rebounds rebounding, especially the long rebound. Mack, how many times, and this drives a coach crazy, do you see the other teams shoot a three and five Cavs kind of just and they get the offensive rebound and get an easy putback. You watched it last night. Yeah, it it happens way too frequently. And sometimes when you give up as many threes as the Cavs give up, which is part of their defensive philosophy, by the way, that’s not that that’s that’s intended. The guards have to be your rebounders because the ball is going to bounce off the rim and go further back to where the bigs can’t corral it right off the rim. So, the guards have to be better, but I’m not completely closing the door on the Cavs being a better rebounding team. They need to be a better rebounding team. Like, they have to. They have the capability to, but I this isn’t the first year we’re having this discussion. And when it’s the same discussion over and over again, at some point you got to be like, there’s probably some validity to it, man. Listen, they were sixth in the NBA last year in rebounds, right? And we know that they’re capable. And this is largely the same roster of guys that are doing it. There’s a couple of pieces that are different, right? But theoretically, you added Lonzo Ball, who’s actually a really good rebounder at his position. Larry Nes Jr. is not a terrible rebounder, but that’s a whole another conversation for another day. something. Yeah, Tomlin, you you have guys, you got pieces and parts out there, but as a collective, they just are not putting it all together right now. And I think it’s showing itself in very specific settings against very specific matchups. It It’s felt as if there are some games where they the effort is high out there. The long rebounds aren’t aren’t being being a problem every single game. The positioning inside from Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, it’s not and the effort from them. the biggest part. It’s not as as ugly as it is in other other games, but as a collective and complete performances, we’re not seeing that the same way that we did last year. And I don’t know if it’s because like they’ve they’re at a place right now where they’re just going through the slaw, going through the motions, and trying to get to the postseason, which is a very dangerous mentality to have as a basketball team. But something’s got to give. I don’t think it’s impossible to correct a lot of these issues, but I think it does simply boil down to actually wanting to do it. And I’m not sure any of them outside of some of the names that we have mentioned want to right now. Yeah, it’s fair. It’s also worth pointing out that in the two big lineups, they’ve been a much better rebounding team than in the one big line. They’re getting absolutely destroyed when either Moley or Allen’s on the bench. That’s got to be corrected. Uh Mac, last one before we pivot over to some Naquon Tomlin, Jaylen Tyson stuff. I spent the first half hour of the show talking with Jason about Evan Mobley. So, I’m just going to let you go. The floor is yours. You’re taking the glasses off, so everyone get I’ll take my glasses off, too. In solidarity, no glasses for this Evan Mobley chat here, Mac. But the floor is yours on Evan. Early season struggles or legitimate concerns moving forward. I lean more early season struggles, but I would be lying to you if I told you that I wasn’t disappointed in what I what I’ve seen so far. And I think that what we do is we like to compartmentalize a lot of this down to as something I mentioned earlier, point guard play, not having Darius Scarlet available to set you up and get you into your spots. That’s really if you look at the advanced analytics for Evan Moley in terms of the shot frequency and where shots are coming from that kind of paints a picture if you look at the profile of where the possessions are beginning for Evan juxtapose where they were last year and in games where Evan or Darius has appeared in. And while that is technically true, I think Darius really has a big part to play in getting Evans set up, I think that from Evans perspective, he has to want to take on the role of being that go-to option, especially in games where some of these guys aren’t available and Donovan Mitchell’s not cooking like we know that he’s capable of. Seven field goal attempts was it last night at a specific point and one fourth not enough. it it’s for a player that we like to think of as top, you know, and I’ve seen rankings half him anywhere from 14 to to to 11. And I think that this is a season, myself included, we were expecting him to make that jump into bonafide top 10, if not top five level status. And whether people believe that’s that was the potential he had entering to entering the season or not, I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that he has failed to meet the expectations so far. Now we are 19 games in. You know, this is a we’re in the first quarter of the season. We’re about to complete that. We’re getting ready to go into the holiday break and things can change as the team gets healthier. But I think that we we’re starting to get to a point with Mobley where we can’t always blame Darius Garland’s absence for his inability to get things going. Now, I know that the ball handling has been touchandgo. It can be rather ugly at times. He’s averaging a a careerhigh in usage rate at 22.9% which is in the 85th percentile among bigs. And the drives, he’s averaging 2.2 more than he did last year. And I do like when he’s aggressive and getting inside, but I I’m starting to get to a point, Mikey, where I want Evan to play like a big man. Just, you know, get into the interior and have that mindset of wanting to take on the the the challenge of attacking and antagonizing defenses on the interior. And I just don’t know like how you do that because part of me is like, okay, is this a coaching issue? Are they not scheming up enough actions to get Evan Mobley involved when you don’t have dribble penetration and you don’t have the DHO or pick and roll going or is this an Evan issue where he’s just simply he’s he’s lost his confidence and I think another part of that you’re seeing it play out at the free throw line. I mean, this dude has missed a gazill I put a video out the other day and I was really really pissed off about it because uh prior to last night’s performance, I I literally did a deep dive and did the math. He would be up 20 points per game score if he had made 18 more free throws that he had gotten the opportunity to take prior to last night’s performance. And I think all of this has has really just combined into just a really bad concoction of a bad start to the season for Evan. Now, I don’t know, and I’m going to try and end on a positive note here because I do believe that Evan has the potential to get to where we want him to be, but right now he’s not giving us too much to go off of. There’s there’s some small positives like he’s he’s generating a lot more contact at the rim as a result of the increased dribble penetration, but the efficiency is bad right now. Um I mean the field goal attempts, they’re they’re starting to trend downward and it’s happening in games where they need him to step up. But I still believe that he has what it takes to get to where we need him to. I already did most of my moy stuff, so I’ll just leave you with this. back. Evan is certainly kind of caught between two roles right now where he started where they said, “We’re going to run everything through you. When Darius comes back, you go back to being the third option, yada yada, yo-yo, back and forth, flip-flop.” That’s valid. But if he’s going to be as good as we think he can be, the role doesn’t matter. Like, you outplay the role. Kevin Durant played for the Thunder, then the Warriors, then the Nets, then the Rocket, the the Sun, then the Rockets. Guess who didn’t really care the system he was in because he’s Kevin freaking Durant. Like obviously Mobili is not that level of a scorer yet. But it shouldn’t really matter. Like you fit in and find ways to make the most of your opportunities and I’m just admittedly frustrated through 19 games. I’m not selling all my moy stock. I still think this dude’s way too talented to end up just being the player we’ve seen thus far. But I don’t think he has his confidence right now. And he has to find his confidence. And I think it’s also fair to say, you know, he was given the keys to the car to the kingdom basically in the first six games and Kenny pulled it back. And we’ll find out in the long run if that was the right choice or not. But I think that certainly plays a role in him not being the most confident version of himself right now. Let’s end on a positive note here because it is Thanksgiving Mack and we just spent 27 minutes not being that optimistic about the Cavs. Naquin Tomlin and Jaylen Tyson. Two bright and Sam Merrell if you want to throw him in there as well. But we’ve done enough Sam Merrill stuff. We haven’t done enough Tomlin and Tyson’s. They’ve been awesome. Everything you could ask for and then some from both those two young guys. And for the first time in a while when you look at the wing rotation depth chart for Cleveland. You have a couple guys you go, “Oh, kind of like what we see there. A little versatility, some size, some length, some athleticism, some toughness. Tomlin against the Rockets last week when Jabari Smith pushed him, got right back in his face. Like it’s kind of the junkyard dog mentality that the Cavs have been lacking. and he’s a two-way guy still find trying to find his his real role, but the way he’s playing now, Mac, I don’t care who’s healthy, like Tomlin’s in that rotation one way or another. I think that he has a lot of potential despite being raw. Obviously, you can tell how raw he is from an offensive standpoint and even on defense from a positioning, you know, the fouling has been an issue for both Tomlin and Tyson, more so Tyson this year, but I think that will come in time as they mature as players. But from a pure energy standpoint, passion, and just hustle and heart out there, this is exactly what this team needs. They need a fire under them. They need more guys out there that look like dogs, right? I I watched Tomlin play at times and I’m reminded of how I used to feel when Lamar Stevens at times used to enter games and just gave the Cavaliers, if nothing else, an energy spark. Say what you will about Lamar and guys of that ilk, but they were pure energy at points. And Tomlin kind of exemplifies that and he’s he’s shown potential three and D potential out there. And I think from an efficiency standpoint, that three-point shot, we’ve seen him at the G-League level. He he’s not afraid to let it fly. He he let it fly in last night’s game against Toronto and made a few. And I think as long as he continues to play confident basketball, he’s going to be a great piece. And what a gym. What a find for this front office. Another one. And then you talk about Tyson, a player that frankly making the decisions that the Cavaliers made this off seasonason, they kind of needed Tyson to experience some form of a breakout. And I mean, you invest a first round pick, 20th overall in Tyson, you want some type of return on investment, especially with some of these lingering or uh, you know, decisions that will have to be made, whether that be on a Struce contract or, you know, DeAndre Hunter. There is a lot of different questions that we won’t even dive into moving forward. But what I’m trying to say here is that they needed Tyson to sort of morph into a usable rotation piece. And he’s done that and more. He has been an ultraefficient catch and shooter this year. He is attacking the glass like we knew that he was capable of. His cutting has been much better. They haven’t get him a lot of opportunities to operate on ball which is something I really was questioning and wondering especially after a summer league performance. Uh, but I have liked what I’ve seen from him because essentially what he’s done is become a very very good offball player. And I think in a lineup where you have Darius, where you got Donovan, Evan, uh, Jared, and we’ll get to DeAndre here in just a second, but what I’m trying to say in this regard too as well is that it’s getting to a point where he can be very, very useful off ball. And if you need to if you need to slide DeAndre back to the bench to give the team a little bit of juice in terms of the scoring, that’s certainly an option you can look at if you’re Kenyaka despite I know DeAndre wants to be a starter. But um Tyson’s been a bre a breath of fresh air and I hope that that play continues especially when we get Max back because I’m just envisioning lineups right now where you got Lonzo, you got Sam, you got Max, you got Tyson out there, maybe some Tomlin playing some small ball five. uh you know, four, whatever, what have you. But it just it leaves you feeling good about the future of this wing rotation. Yeah, Tomlin has been an incredible find. Like didn’t even play high school basketball and then shout out to all the coaches that found him at Rucker Park and developed him into what he’s become today. He played on national TV. Yeah. I mean I mean starting on national TV against the Rockets. Got his first start. His offensive game’s raw. like he he he still is trying to figure out what spots he likes best. He’s not a knockdown three-point shooter yet, even though he can shoot a three. Defensively, I love the aggressiveness. He’s got to kind of tame it in a little bit. You know, it’s sometimes a little overaggressive that can put himself in a bad position and end up putting his teammates in disadvantageous help spots. But I’d rather have a guy that’s too aggressive and have to tame it back than have to instill aggressiveness into a guy because he’s too tame to begin with. And Tomlin throws it. I think he’s played nine games now. Like, I don’t think you could have asked for anything more than what you’ve gotten from Naquon Tomlin. To the point where against the Houston Rockets, Kenny Atinson said, uh, yeah, Tomlin, you’re getting a start. Like, over some other guys who were equally qualified to get that position, he said, “No, the way you’re playing, Naquin, right now, like you’ve earned it.” And Tyson, you know, before the concussion was off to an incredible start. He shoot almost 50% from three, like% from three. He just like Tomlin love the aggressiveness, but he got the nickname Hacky Chan for a reason. Like he’s got to figure out not hack guys. Keep his hands behind his back if you got to go back to the old like fourth grade defensive drill. Slide with your hands tied behind your back so you can’t foul. But these are the kind of ways you can keep a team healthy. And by healthy, I don’t mean in terms of like the actual physical health, but when you have to make difficult decisions based on the salary cap, the second apron, who stays, who goes, who can we trust, who can’t we trust, a lot of this is going to come down to internal development of late first round picks, second round picks, undrafted guys to be able to replace guys who simply outplay their current contract and are get paid more elsewhere. And knowing the likes of a Tomlin, a Tyson, the Cavs like Travers a lot, we saw Chris Singleton make his debut on Monday. have some guys like that in the pipeline that some are a lot closer than others, some are further away, some they believe in a lot more than others, but knowing you have guys that eventually down the road could replace, if not step into and overperform the guys that they’re currently behind when their contracts come up is exactly the way you have to navigate this new era of the NBA. And look no further example or look at no better example than OKC who by the way could have two top 14 picks this year in the draft including the Clippers pick which stupid but AJ Mitchell was a second round pick. He’s now the favorite as of today on Thanksgiving to be the sixman of the year averaging 17 points off the bench row like that that’s how you sustain success in this second apron era and the Cavs and it’s early granted it’s early look they found two gems in Tyson and Tomlin. Yeah, I mean, Livingston making his debut for the Cavaliers, that was I liked what he was able to do out there, putting a little bit of pressure on the rim, allowing him to get to the rim and finishing through contact out there. That was nice to see. But, um, the wing rotation in particular, and I understand that these guys, at least in the case of Tomlin and Livingston, are on two, and they will have to make a determination on whether or not they’re going to convert. I’m I would assume Tomlin close to his eligibility running out. Let me break the news right now. Tomlin’s being converted. I’m just gonna You heard it here first, guys. On Thanksgiving afternoon, Naquin Tomlin’s getting converted. I I would assume nothing less as they’ve rewarded guys over the years for their hard work and and determination. And Tomlin fits that description to a tea. I’m very very excited about the future. And you know, prior to this season, I don’t think we really knew what we had in some of the younger pieces. We were hoping that somebody would take a leap. We were expecting that somebody would take a lead, but I didn’t think we’d get this many guys that were primed for a breakout, whether it be Sam Merrill or Jaylen Tyson or Naqucoin Tomlin or Craig Porter Jr. even. Um, you know, there’s a lot of names you can put in that. Mac, last question, we’ll get you out of here so you can enjoy your Thanksgiving meal with your family. Obviously, the Cavs got off to that incredible start last year, 15-0. They end up losing to the Celtics, first loss of the season. And I forget what their exact record after 19 games was, but 17-2 at worst, whatever it was. Cavs obviously 12-7 this year. In a weird way, would you almost rather be in the spot they’re at now, learning and growing through some of these early season struggles and tribulations, trials and tribulation that they never had to go through last year? In a way, could this actually be more beneficial in the long run that it hasn’t been a flawless start compared to what we saw last year? No, I like Whitten. No, I’m just kidding. Um I I see I see both sides of this one. For the record, yes, I I think I I’ll say this, right? I I loved last year from a vibes standpoint. It just felt as if the Cavaliers were taking a huge step forward and they were making it fun during the regular season where it can get very monotonous and it’s a long marathon of a year and they had multiple win streaks but unfortunately it all came crashing down due to injuries and a lack of mental fortitude at times in that Indiana series. And this year, I think that the struggles that they are going through will ultimately be a good thing come the end of the season, at least from an onc court perspective. The injuries, that’s not that’s not pretty. That’s not ever pretty, especially for a team that I mean, they were down seven rotational players last night. And some of that, whether that be DeAndre Hunter, some of that might be may have been by choice, but still, they’ve dealt with a lot of injury this year. I could do without that. But the struggles in and in trying to incorporate some of these new pieces and and getting mobiley comfortable with being no worse than the second option, that type of stuff. I would I’m okay going through that right now because I think that is ultimately going to help you come the playoffs when you’re not going to have this huge runway and opportunity of games to figure it out on the fly. You need guys to feel comfortable and confident in the roles they’re in. And if that takes this team going through some struggles right now, I’m okay with that. I’ve I’ve shared this mindset with a lot of people and I’m going to share it with you, too. Right. Finish with a top four seed, get relatively healthy. Yep. That’s all I care about as of right now on this season as a whole. There were a lot of people all summer, Matt, that said the regular season was meaningless for Cleveland. All that matter was the playoffs. And those same people are very upset now that the Cavs happen to be 12 and seven without Darius Scarlet for the majority of the year without Max Truce to start the season. They’re playing a lot of young guys. They’re intentionally resting a lot of young guys. And I just want to remind all those people, the Indiana Paces were sub 500 in January. And then they got their pieces back. They got healthy. They went on a hell of a run all the way up to game seven of the NBA Finals. I’m not saying that’s Cleveland’s destiny. All I’m saying is making a judgment on a team who has been without their start point guard for most of the year on Thanksgiving before the calendar flips to 2026 is premature and it’s doing a disservice to the full potential of this team. Can they win it all? You want to peak at the right time. That’s what it is. You want to peak at the right time. So, can they win it all? We’ll find out in April, May, and June. But how they’re playing right now really is absolutely no indication of how they’re going to play when the playoffs roll around. This team that you’re watching tomorrow night when they’re back in action could look completely night and day to the team we see when the playoffs come. And that includes fixing up some of those concerns Mac and I talked about earlier in the show and the things Jason and I talked about to start the show. But Mac, I appreciate you spending 40 minutes with us on this Thanksgiving morning. Enjoy it with you and your family. For everyone who tuned in to this special Ultimate Cavs edition on Thanksgiving Day 2025, we appreciate you. We want to wish you a happy holiday, a happy Thanksgiving, and hopefully some f full bellies to watch some football with tonight. For M. Perry, for Jason Lloyd, I’m Mikey McNuggets. We will see you guys tomorrow on a regularly scheduled edition of the Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show. Peace.

The Cleveland Cavaliers needed Evan Mobley to take another leap this season. Everything was set up for him. But through 19 games, it just hasn’t happened.

Why hasn’t the jump happened and is it time to give up on him ever becoming a legitimate star?

Plus, what are some other early season surprises & concerns from the Cavs team 19 games into the season?

McNuggets is joined by Jason Lloyd & Mack Perry to break it all down.

Support Us By Supporting Our Sponsors!

Epicor
From small businesses with big dreams to growing enterprises with global vision, we’ll equip you with the right tools to move forward, think ahead, and lead the way. Discover your success at www.easierwithepicor.com.

Living For We
New episodes drop every other Tuesday, starting February 11th. Listen to Living For We wherever you get your podcasts, or watch the video version on Ideastream’s YouTube channel. Learn more at ideastream.com/podcast/living-for-we.

Amazon Fire TV Stick 4k
Did you know your Fire TV is also an Xbox? Turn any TV into your gaming and entertainment hub with Fire TV Stick 4K devices — no console required. Head to Amazon.com/firetvlockedon to get started. Xbox Game Pass Ultimate subscription and compatible controller required.

Monarch Money
Take control of your finances with Monarch Money. Use code LOCKEDONNFL at monarchmoney.com for 50% off your first year.

Buckeye State Credit Union is a LOCAL brand that offers a wide range of products from checking accounts to home equity lines of credit & auto loans. Head to Buckeyecu.org for more information.

Menu RX: “Whether you’re chasing peak performance, building your dream body, or seeking optimal longevity, Menu-Rx will help you reach your goals. Go to Menu-RX dot com to get your consultation today.”

Buckeye State Credit Union
Experience the difference with Buckeye State Credit Union. We make banking effortless and convenient for you. Visit us online at buckeyecu.org and discover how Buckeye State Credit Union simplifies your financial journey. Buckeye State Credit Union – Your Money, Simplified.

FanDuel
Today’s episode is brought to you by FanDuel. Right now, new FanDuel customers can get TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY dollars in Bonus Bets if your first FIVE DOLLAR bet wins! Visit FanDuel.com/UCSS to get started.

FANDUEL DISCLAIMER: 21+ in select states. First online real money wager only. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable free bets that expires in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MD, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA, WV), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), 1-800-522-4700 (WY, KS) or visit ksgamblinghelp.com (KS), 1-877-770-STOP (LA), 1-877-8-HOPENY or text HOPENY (467369) (NY), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN)

Subscribe and ring the bell for the latest talk about the Cleveland Browns, Cleveland Guardians, Cleveland Cavaliers and Ohio State Buckeyes: https://bit.ly/ucss_subscribe

Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ultclesports

Watch live on YouTube 11 a.m.-1 p.m. weekdays on YouTube and WKYC+ on your Roku and Fire TV apps!

The Ultimate Cleveland Sports Show is your daily source of the best conversation about the Cleveland Browns, Cleveland Guardians, Cleveland Cavaliers and Ohio State Buckeyes, as well as sports throughout Northeast Ohio. Produced by Mike Lucas, Anthony Antonelli, and Earl Mauldin. Hosted by Jay Crawford, Adam the Bull, G Bush, Jason Lloyd, and Tyvis Powell.