Celebrini for MVP? | EP 112 Boyle on When It’s Time To Retire
Welcome to the San Jose Hockey Now podcast. Today we are going to talk to Dan Bo about when a player realizes that he is not the player that he was. And of course with the Sharks, we’re going to be talking about John Cleanberg, Nick Ley in that relation. Also, we are going to give our or I am going to give my case for Mlin to be the MVP of the NHL this year. Touch on a little bit too. Shakir Mukumadull. want to talk about his game recently, too. But, okay, before we get to that though, award from our sponsor, bring hockey back. So, bring hockey back. I’m wearing after yesterday’s loss, they deserve the Sharks uh t-shirt treatments. They’re not the Sharks. They’re the Sharks after getting pasted by the Washington Capitals yesterday, 7 to one. Anyway, get this shirt and other cool t-shirts, Sharks t-shirts, and otherwise hockey t-shirts that bring hockey back. Also too, you can order hockey jerseys from them. Custom hockey jerseys. Bring hockeyback.net. Coupon code San Jose hockey now get 15% off. So once again, bringhockeyback.net. All righty. So let’s get into the conversation. Before that though, Dan, just how have you been, man? We uh didn’t get to talk to you our last podcast. You were in I think Santa Barbara also too. Actually, you’ll notice that this is a twoman group today. So yeah, he’s eliminated all the competition. Just me and dad now. Just do the do the rating do the uh ratings go down or do they go up? What’s the what’s the the ratings will go better without those those other guys? Uh yeah, life life has been pretty uh pretty uneventful. I uh apart from going to Santa Barbara for the first time. I took my uh teenage daughters there just to they’re they’re a junior and a sophomore and they’re getting at that age where we’re starting to think about school. And there’s a uh I believe a a school. You went to the uh community college there, correct? No, I went to UCSB. Oh, you went to the university. Go to the CC. Oh, calm down. Anyways, I went to see both. And uh uh State Street was awesome. I have a bachelor’s, not an associate, Dan. Joking. No, it’s good. I I I I loved it. I mean, besides, it was a little bit of a lengthier drive than I wanted. It took about six hours to get there. A lot of traffic. Uh but uh pretty uh pretty awesome little spot and uh took a little bike ride into Monaceto I believe it was called to the left and uh ah it was great. I uh we live in a very beautiful part of the country and uh I had never been there so it was pretty awesome. And let’s nominate Dan for dad of the year. He also took his daughters to Billy isish. So how was that? I did. Oh yeah I did. I did. Yeah. Uh, well, what I didn’t know was, uh, so we saw her about a year ago in San Jose at the Shark Tank and I don’t know, I guess I lost track and then I got, you know, my kids pretty decent tickets for the show at uh, in San Francisco. Uh, and it was the same tour, so it was the exact same show. But, uh, she’s one of those artists where the girls like her, and I like her a lot, too. Like, I would listen to her even if my girls didn’t. Uh, she’s kind of one of those, she’s a little weird and I like that. And, uh, yeah, I thought it was a great show and, you know, with my teen girls, uh, if I can get them to hang out with me for for for three hours, let alone, you know, if I can get out for half an hour, it’s great, let alone three hours. So, uh, we had a great night. Uh, we went had dinner. I don’t even remember where, but, uh, walked around a little bit and, uh, caught a great show and she’s great. It was the last show of her tour. She’s done now for a little bit. So your teen pop tastes are more Billy than Taylor Swift or Sabrina Carpenter. Yeah. Yeah. Sabrina Carpenter. No, I would say Taylor uh sorry uh Billy Isish one. I would say probably Olivia Rodrigo 2. Okay. Only because only because I took the girls to that one too. And Taylor Taylor was great too. Uh saw her a couple times. Uh honestly, man, if my girls are having a good time, I’ll like almost anything. So, uh, but those are probably the top three, uh, shows and artists that we’ve been to in the last couple years. Sounds good. I think I’m more of a Taylor guy, but that’s, you know, I’m old. So, Billy’s good, man. Check out Billy Isish. She’s great. Billy’s good. Yeah, she’s Okay, I will. I will. Yeah. Well, you sent me you sent me a picture of her in a San Jose Sharks hat, too. She’s a big big I think she’s lost. She’s a big Dan Bole fan is what I heard. Yeah, she has a 22 jersey. Not an not an Ireo jersey. So is that Did I mispronounce his name? Yeah, I did get it right. He’s a boil jersey. Disrespect, Dan. The shade the sub tweet by Dan Boy. Can’t we’ll even say the guyy’s name right. Come on, man. Like take 23. Maybe take 21, 22. Maybe leave that jersey in peace for a couple decades at least. Right. It’s been a decade. I think there’s been other 22s though since the first one, right? Uh yeah, there was uh there was another Ford, a carpenter or somebody a couple years ago. Oh, Ryan Carpenter. Yeah, good guy actually. I think so. Yeah. No. Yeah. No, it just I’m kidding. But it it does feel a little weird to see it. Well, speaking of that’s going to be a theme of when you know you’re not the player you were, and that’s one of them when you someone takes your jersey. Yeah, that’s a sign that you are. And like I said, uh oh, by the way, let’s talk about this. I just thought about this. So, uh, do you guys remember a few weeks ago, uh, I complained or I talked about the the shirt? So, uh, during the 2018 playoffs, yeah, you spilled beer all over your shirt. Yes. Yes. And then iPad came. I had to sign off on at 65 bucks. Well, someone at the Sharks, Mr. Jonathan Becker, our good friend of the show. Thanks, Jonathan. Um, I did a show. I did a not a show, I did a game, uh, TV radio and I was up in the booth with Dan Rowski and somebody came over with a a gift bag and I was like, “What the hell is this?” And it was the Sharks giving me two shirts. Uh, two shirts. One was probably from probably 1994. I I think there was a there was a lot of dust. So, thank you Jonathan Becker for a shirt that no old logo a shirt that no one wanted. It’s the ugliest shirt I’ve ever seen. Zubar took that one. But yeah, I’m going to give that one to Zubar. And uh the other one was decent. The other one was decent. But uh they had a little note saying you’re not a nobody. So uh it was a it was a very nice uh it was a very nice gift. And I I wanted to say thank you to uh Mr. Jonathan for uh for thinking about me. Why not four shirts though? What about right? And one and one was one was bad. One was really bad. One. I got to see the bad one. I don’t think Oh, it’s it’s it’s it’s Yeah, it’s a shirt that never sold. I don’t think you could pay people to wear that shirt. It’s pretty bad. Yeah, but Jonathan seemed to think I would wear it, but I’m going to give it to Zubar. I think Zuber will will make it look decent. It’s his style, right? Mhm. Speaking of, so Zubar is still in Spain. Keegan is working today. So there is no Keegan’s Prospects corner today unfortunately. They should be back next week, you know, every week. Moving target. I’m traveling a lot too. So moving target to get everybody on the same show. I’m golfing a lot of Dallas. That dude’s not traveling a lot, but I’m going to Dallas. Dan Prius is golfing though. And and fair enough. Yep. But let’s talk some sharks now. And so okay, so just a quick quick bit of news. Michael Misa. He was sent down to the AHL for a conditioning loan. He will play this weekend. Um they also play on Wednesday at San Jose at Tech CU. I’m not sure he’s going to play that game. All this leads up to possibly I don’t know, but he did not confirm or deny whether or not he’s going to roll Juniors. And Sam Dickinson’s also possibility for that too. So we’ll get to that a little bit later when we talk about the Sharks defense. Anyway, Canada’s training camp starts on December 12th. So that’s anyway, those are the the big dates. But if you want to catch Michael Misa, I think this is going to be a lot of fun actually to watch him down in the AHL. He says he’s going to be on the power play with Chernaw, with Musty and Canyon on the power play. His five on five line looks like L and Walstrom. So there’s no Sagenov reunion there, but anyway. So Michael Misa down to the AHL. Yeah, I mean I think we all in the hockey community expected that. Um they weren’t going to rush him into the lineup every night. We kind of figured as we got closer to December and we saw the injury happen. Um kind of felt that this was going to be one of those things where he was going to be, you know, taken through slowly and again it’s going to be his decision whether he goes to World Juniors or not. Um, if I was a betting man, I’d say he he’s probably going to go, although I have no I have no inside scoop on that whatsoever. Same. Uh, and then they’re going to have to make a decision obviously what they want to do moving forward into the new year with him. Yeah, we talked about this extensively on the podcast before where I think the angel tape that Michael has put out so far, he isn’t quite angel ready, but a guy can get better from October to January. So I wonder he talked we talked with him today and he talked a lot about well he had a lower body injury. Uh it’s like a ankle he had an ankle injury and he has been able to work on his upper body over the last month and that’s one of his kind of that was one of his issues early on the strength and the quickness. So if he gets a little bit stronger hey maybe after World Juniors the Sharks will say you know we’re going to keep you on for the whole year. So uh we’ll we’ll see about that. I think that’s one of the I would not rule out that maybe they send him back or that they keep him. I don’t think I I’m not sure either way how that’s going to go. Yeah, I wish I had an inside scoop for you. I just, you know, if you send him down if you send him back to juniors, it’s you know, what is he going to improve? Uh can he get better? I I don’t I don’t know that he can. um you know, maybe you’re better off, you know, keeping them. And it depends. I obviously I’m not equipped to answer that question, but I I I think I I I don’t I don’t know that they’re going to send him back to Junior to be honest with you. You have a good instinct on that though because I spoke with Shane Wright uh about this and promote that article again came out last week and Shane had that experience in 2022 23. He started the season with the Kraken. He was the number four pick of the 2022 draft and then he went to the AHL for a conditioning loan and then he went to Royal Juniors and after that the Kraken decided to send him send him back to uh to to the OHL and I asked Shane um just what that experience was like like what did he learn as a player and he was pretty honest actually it was a I thought a very good interview uh Shane said actually like it was just more about just enjoying hockey having fun and trying to win the Memorial Cup and things like that, but there wasn’t a lot of chance for him to learn to be necessarily a better defensive player because you’re just not putting those opportunities there where you’re being challenged. I guess I think that’s that’s what he’s trying to get at. So, I thought that was a very honest interview by How is the team the junior team that he would be going to, are they decent? I I I don’t know. Oh, you know, I actually don’t don’t even know that. Um I don’t know how they’re doing, but that that would be a factor, right? If they have a chance at a Memorial Cup, then you have maybe that’s a good, you know, but if their team’s average at best, borderline playoff team, then you’re like, do I want to send my top guy there, you know? I don’t know. I’m not Mike Greer. Obviously, those guys know a lot more than I do. They know him personally. I don’t. They know what his makeup is. Um, so we’ll see. It’ll be interesting. But yeah, he uh he looked he’s looked, you know, he’s looked young. He’s looked inexperienced. He’s looked a little um not undized, but not not strong enough, you know, and and and most importantly, and confidence is is at some point when that clicks, I think he’ll take off even uh um I was going to call him Smitty, but um you know, I you could you see the growth just within a year. Um certain guys when they have it. Um, but yeah, anyways, the two two things I wanted to add to that to what you just said is that if they did send him back to the O and say Sagenol is not good, Sagenol would probably trade him for for a mint and trade down because that’s what that’s what I forget what Shane Wright’s original OHL team was, but they traded Wright to a winning team or the host team or whatever. Yeah. So, so that that’s that’s what’s going to that that’s what could happen. But also the other part of it too is this happened for right too is that his team uh his OHL team that he got traded to did not do did not go as far as they hoped. Obviously I think they were eliminated in the first round but that actually put Shane uh back in the AHL for the playoffs and so he actually got like 24 games in the Colder Cup playoffs that year with the Coachella Valley and that I’m sure was very valuable experience. So, and so that’s sort of a like if you send them down to CHL, if you send them to a good team and dad has a chance for Memorial Cup, great if they make a run. Yeah. But if they don’t get and if the Barracuda have, you know, and Barracuda are in the playoff position right now, that that could be that could be a plus. I’m not sure. These are a lot of ifs here, but all right. So, we last recorded on November 20th and we so we missed a lot of games uh since then. We don’t have to talk about everyone, but just to give you guys a quick uh quick uh rundown of of where we’re going back to. So, uh the LA Kings game, the and yesterday’s Washington game. So, that’s about that’s uh sick eight games right there. Um general theme I wanted to get on right now though with you Dan is that the Sharks have lacked consistency of compete. I think recently um the last month or so, every week there’s been kind of a stinker of a game. So obviously yesterday was Washington, a 7-1 loss. Last week was Colorado, a 6-0 loss. The week before was Ottawa where that was a close game, but after the first period, they looked checked out. And then the week before that was the Calgary. It was a close game. It was two to zero, but that was because of a scar off. And the Sharks were terrible in that game. Uh, the Sharks had kind of built some degree of consistency of compete before that. I think if we want to go back precisely the Pittsburgh game early in the season to right before that Calgary game, you know, they beat Minnesota in overtime 2 to1. There’s a stretch of 13 games in there where they didn’t win every game, but there was a generally a strong kind of compete level, I thought. So, anyway, what I ask what want to ask you, Dan, is what is kind of the next step for this team? You know, I I asked a few guys this and you’re they’re not going to be the Colorado Avalanche overnight. They’re not going to be a wagon like that. It’s just not how how things work in a rebuild. Yeah. But for this team where it’s sat, you watch them a bunch this year. You’ve been in locker rooms. Like what is sort of the the the next immediate step that they can that that’s reachable to improve as a group? Well, you talked you mentioned the word compete and uh as good as they were and that’s why when I did TV a month ago, they had the playoff picture up. I was like, really guys? It’s like mid November. I’m like, you learn even Cabbrini and Smith and the some of the younger guys, uh, you learn that it’s one thing to be hot for six, seven, eight, 10 days or games, excuse me. But in the NHL, it’s 80. Well, it’s 82, soon to be 84. Um, it’s a it’s a it’s a [ __ ] grind. And I I always broke down the season into three. Uh, this is just my personal thing. The first 20 are very easy to get through. Mhm. The last 20, cuz you’re excited, it’s a new season, blah blah blah. The last 20, you’re usually fighting for a playoff spot. At least I was. That middle 40 is the grind, which this is what we’re in now. And uh yeah, I I I’ve seen the same things. I haven’t seen every game and and some of the games I do watch on record and I I I’ll watch certain most shifts, but you know, and there’s there’s lazy mistakes and uh I don’t necessarily think the players are lazy, but you get into these bad habits of you get tired and you get lazy. And uh you know, I remember when I played, I talked to myself a lot. I probably look like I had like Tourette’s or something, but I I I I would constantly like verbally out loud to myself like get up the ice or stop, you know, like it just little cues that like would like remind me like cuz it’s easy games 25, 28, 29, 35 when you’re going back to back, it’s very easy to get into bad habits because you do get tired. And I noticed on some of the goals, you know, some of the younger defenseman, you could see that they just kind of like it’s like a letup almost. Um, and it’s it’s it’s not that they’re necessarily lazy players, but they’re making lazy plays. And I think the season’s getting to them. So, to summarize, uh, I would say just, you know, that’s where your veteran, your coach, uh, your leadership reminds the guys, hey, every shift here, every shift. And I often tell people now that I’m that I’m retired like it’s [ __ ] like for some guys it’s 15 minutes a night, 12 minutes a night, 20 minutes a night. It’s this is just just give it give it your all. Work work very hard and you’re going to lose some games, you know, especially when you’re not loaded or, you know, from top to bottom with a with with an all-star roster. um your work ethic has to be there every night and I feel like it’s lacked a little bit um occasionally like you said with the stinkers and um with some plays. Yeah, I think you make an interesting point too. You know, those first 20 games the Sharks definitely surprise a lot of people. It’s exciting. Yeah. Right. And you don’t have that element of surprise anymore. And so these next 40 that’s going to be kind of the march. And if they get to game 60 and 61 and they’re still in the playoff hunt, then that’s successful season for this team. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, first 20 is exciting. Last 20 you’re fighting for plow spot. It’s those it’s that middle 40 that you just lean on and and and uh whether I’m right or wrong, I don’t know. But that’s where talent sometimes will sure of course will rise to the surface where you’re you’re winning games you’re not supposed to when you’re tired or banged up. Um, but the teams like the Sharks need to outwork their opponents every night because they’re not going to be better than Colorado uh, at least talent-wise. They’re not going to be better um, than, you know, a lot of the teams that they’re playing uh, top to bottom. So, they they have to outwork teams and I think they did that early on in the season. Yeah. Yeah. I think they were feeling themselves. They’re like, “Hey, we’re actually kind of good.” And they had that excitement. But now and Forsas has said this that you’ve had some success and now you get a little complacent and that’s not unusual thing for just human nature. It’s not even a sharks or a sports thing. Yeah, it’s it’s you know, again, fortunately, back to my six years in San Jose, we we the the do the 40 that 40 middle portion, we weren’t great every night, but we had Joe Thorne, we had Patty Marlo, we had Logan Couture, we had Brent Burns, we had, you know, the long list of players, Ryan Clow or whoever guys could that could win you a game, take over game. And the Sharks are getting there. We’re slowly getting there, but we’re we’re not quite there as far as depth goes to to be able to win most games, you know, with with your your B and sometimes your C game. So So the effort for me as a coach is what I’d be uh harping on like work work work. And that’s exactly what they did today. Uh they were not supposed to practice today and after they got humiliated yesterday uh the practice got back on the got back on the board today and that was the message. Uh I’ll give Tyler Toi credit. I asked him point Blake this practice wasn’t scheduled right and he said hey we didn’t deserve a day off and so it’s good if that’s recognized uh by your leadership and obviously your young players too. Yeah. And you know, just the game last night, obviously a couple of the goals were they were they were just, you know, goals, but a few of them like a few we call them flybys. You know, guys that just kind of skate past their men or or sometimes it’s something as simple as guys trying to do other people’s jobs and then their men gets left open. uh at least on a couple of the goals. It’s what I saw where it’s like you have to like there’s that element of trust where if everyone does their job then most of the time it’ll work out. Once in a while some guy’s going to get beat and so be it. But um I don’t know. I just it was a little it wasn’t pretty to watch obviously last last game. Well, speaking of talent though, let’s talk Mlin Celebrity. We got to talk Mlin Celebrity on every episode. We are contractually obligated to do that. So, the Mlin Minute or the Mlin Hour. So, we haven’t found a sponsor for that yet. But anyway though, I want your thoughts on this. So, I was asked to take part in anonymous uh poll uh for the awards intro awards. No longer anonymous, though. No longer anonymous. Well, you know what? I don’t I don’t mind. This is This is like This is not a consequence. This is not the final vote, obviously. Um, but I thought I put in Mlin as my MVP and this is my argument. So, Mlin has well, let’s see. The Sharks did score yesterday, but he Mlin has points in 40 of the Sharks 80 goals. So, 50% of their goal. That’s that’s got to be the highest and I’m pretty sure it’s the highest in the league, you would think. Um, he is also a good maybe not a great two-way player, but he is a good attentive two-way player. He leads the league in puck battles, which uh I’m writing a story about that. He leads all forwards in puck battle wins. That’s crazy. He’s 19 years old. He leads all forwards in puck battle wins according to staff leads. And so while I recognize that Nathan McKinnon has been a better player this year that in terms of MVP, most valuable player, what would the Sharks be without Mlin Celibbrini? Uh yeah, you don’t have to sell me on it. I mean, you’re right. Yeah, if you remove if you remove a certain player from a team, uh when I that when I look at an MVP, uh if you remove that player from a team, how drastically different will that team look? Um you know, and some teams, no matter what, if if you’re talking about an MVP type player that the team’s going to suffer, but if you take McKinnon away, yes, the team will suffer, but um there’s a lot of other people that can carry the weight there. whereas I think when you take Celibbrini off that team, I think it’s a huge drop off. And you mentioned almost 50% of the goals he’s uh involved in. So I think that’s a pretty important statistic for sure. And like you said, I think for me it’s not even the stats, it’s it’s the eye test for me, his work ethic, um his defensive game, um his compete level. Uh he’s doing all the right things and at at 19 years old, too. I mean, uh, you know, he’s certainly, uh, you’re not, you know, you don’t have to sell me on it. I would, I would need to see who the other guys are. And to if I had a vote, but, uh, I certainly think he would be in the top five for sure right now. Oh, the other part of it, too, is that as of that when I put in my vote, and I think even as of today, even though they they got spanked yesterday, the Sharks had the last wild card spot. And that’s unbelievable. Yeah. I mean that’s on Mlin and obviously a scar off too. So let’s not forget Yoslav there. But uh but though that’s you know if the Sharks end up the season in the playoffs and Mlin has the season that he’s having he might well win the MVP which I think you know Mlin hates hates these comps but Crosby did that I believe in his in his second year. So yeah. Well what we touched on earlier there’s a 60 games to go or whatever. So, there’s a long way to go, but for sure at the at the one-/3 mark or uh he’s Yeah, if you said he was the MVP, I’d be 100% on board with that. All right, I’m going to double check this because I want to be be right about this with with Crosby, the 2000 heart trophy winner. Yep, I’m looking at Sydney Crosby’s face. Okay, I want to ask you one question, Dan, actually that um we talked a couple weeks ago about Mlin where he was in the league in terms of superstar where he is in sort of like compared to your career and if he had played with any superstars and oh a little aside before we get to that because I’m going to forget this this little this little uh uh uh nugget. I did talk with a with with a player, not with the Sharks, not kind of directly involved in any of this kind of stuff. And I was really interested in what what what this player thought of Mlin and Mlin he thought maybe top 10 was a little aggressive for Mlin, but he said h, you know, top 20 for sure in the league, top 20 player. So, but he also did did did note though that for team Canada, he would definitely pick Mlin over like with 100% over over Bard was very clear about that. So just I just thought that was a little tidbit just insight from from a player. But anyway, my question to you Dan though is so you had kind of said like hey you know maybe you hadn’t played with a superstar before and of course fans will jump on that and be like wait you played with Joe Thornton you played with Patty Marlo but what I want to ask you Dan is because I realized when you were talking about it that the Joe Thornton you played with wasn’t exactly the 2005 06 Joe Thornton that won the heart trophy. he was, you know, crossing 30, still a great great player, but was he a top five player at that point? Maybe like top 20 also. I don’t know. So, I just wanted kind of to get your your thoughts about that the the distinction kind of where a guy like Jumbo was at his career when you played with him or Patty Marlo or any of the other kind of great players that you played with that maybe you wouldn’t qualify as a superstar or maybe you would now you think about it again. Uh, I I think the way that I was, again, it was the way that I was interpreting the word or my definition of superstar. Uh, I can probably name 10 to 12 guys off the top of my head that are possibly Hall of Famers or soon to be Hall of Famers. Obviously, Patty Joe being two of them. Marty St. Louis, Vinnie Lavalier, Brad Richards. Um, but none of them were 19. I didn’t play with anyone at 19. Um, so that’s a big distinction. Those guys were all established uh mid20s type players or you know early 30s. Um, and I just I think for me it was again player that’s going to like on the edge of your seat type of thing every time he touches the puck, you know, and you had mentioned Pavle Burray but and I had talked about it Pav was on the offensive side of things. Yes, for sure. But, you know, overall just kind of like that. Yeah. Top five offense. Just kind of like and then and then Yeah. Yeah. I just I just, you know, again, I play with so many amazing, tremendous players, but I guess maybe it’s just my definition of superstar is probably just a little different um than than what someone else’s definition superstars, you know. So, I didn’t get to play with Sid as a 19-year-old, you know. Sure. Um, but I had I played with him as a 19-year-old, he would have probably been one of those players or u McDavid obviously with what you know he’s doing. Um, but yeah, I I think I mean the the uh is it objective or subjective? I always get those wrong, but uh objective. Objective. It’s an objective thing to say someone’s a superstar. Oh, that’s a subjective thing. Objective is the is the is the reverse. Object uh subjective is just basically your opinion. Objective is trying to be removed from it. Unbiased opinions. I always get those two mixed up. So, whichever one uh is is is the right word. That’s what I mean. It’s it’s, you know, again, I played with a lot of amazing Hall of Famers, great great players, but uh for me, you know, this kid’s a superstar. Who actually just in your career, just curious, who had the very best season that you ever played with? Just like that year they were just the very best player you play with in that particular probably Marty St. Louis. Okay. Did he win a a heart of he Yeah, he won a heart. Uh again, Marty was so so good. But uh Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know. He He wasn’t like I Yeah, I don’t know. He was so good. He was that was probably the best season uh that I’ve seen as far as just coming through clutch, hardworking. Um just just the type of player you want on your team you want to play for. Yep. Yep. 2004, by the way. Also the year you guys won the cup. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Okay. So, I have a crazy opinion here and I I vetted it with a scout and he didn’t laugh in my face and so I want to ask your your your thought on this one. So, as I was doing my my my voting, I looked at Selki and I actually thought really hard about Alex Wenberg. I thought really hard about him and Alex and again I have an article coming out on this. Alex actually leads the league in turnovers forced for for a forward which is kind that’s I mean I yeah grant the Sharks are defending a good amount so that gives them more opportunities to force turnovers but though uh the Sharks are better than last year so they’re not on their heels as much as last year I think and anyway the fact that he leads the league in this stat I mean he’s ahead of guys like more celebrated guys like Ryan O’Reilly um he’s ahead of Mlin Mlin’s actually top five in this category too and we’ve seen Alex hard match against Nathan McKinnon and other other players and do pretty well at home. Um, is that is that is that is that crazy to you? I’m going to I’m going to also show what the scouts said to me too, but like and I didn’t put them in the end because I thought I I can’t really put in a objective vote and have two sharks as my trophy winner so far because I I really I’m very careful not to do that. I’ve actually voted Let me interrupt. I voted on the the the trophies for the last seven years. I am very very careful about about not being biased and not giving the word just to Sharks. Last year, a lot of fans still give me [ __ ] about this. I voted Mlin number two in my CER trophy. I had Hudson one, Mlin number two, and Dustin Wolf three. Um, so because I thought Hudson had a better rookie season, even though I I I thought that Celabbrini would be a better player long run. But anyway, so you were saying um well I would say that I watch the Sharks and I don’t watch the other teams. So I wouldn’t I wouldn’t have the educated uh knowledge enough to say him versus someone else. I would say on the Shark I would say on the Sharks for sure. You could tell he’s a responsible two-way player. Um is very good at carrying the puck from one end to the other. He seems to have a calming presence. Um, I just don’t know enough about the other teams and as far as like an award right now to see, you know, who would be who would be up there. I mean, in my day, Patrice Berseron won it like 50 freaking five years in a row. Um, but he had it but he had an offensive um side to it. So, I know this Sulki is for the defensive forward, but I think Patrice had an offensive It’s become a two-way award kind of though. Yeah. Yeah. So if you’re strictly a defensive player and have few points and whatever, I don’t think you’re going to get it. So I think offensively he would need to show me a little bit more even though it is a defensive uh oriented um um award. So yeah, I would say on the Sharks, yes, in the league, uh that’s probably a stretch for me. Okay. But I don’t watch I don’t watch the other teams either. So I don’t know. There’s probably somebody out there that is just as deserving and if not more deserving. I just don’t know who it is. Frankly too, it is a weak year for this award. Barkoff went down. Copadar is is last year and Copar isn’t quite the player that he was. Obviously, Berseron’s not around. So, so it is a weak year for the award. But I I will say though, I just want to defend the position that the scout did not laugh in my face. The scout was like, “Yeah, I can kind of see it.” But now, if you are a Sharks fan, you’re thinking Alex Wberg UFA is going to command so much at the trade deadline. The scout did say straight to my face though that I think that people hold Alex did not play that well for the Rangers when he was traded to the Rangers. Same kind of position. He was the Rangers. He was a big Rangers trade deadline pickup. Yeah. And supposed to help the Rangers win the Stanley Cup. the Rangers did make it to the conference final, but Weberg wasn’t wasn’t wasn’t at at his best in that run. And so I think that the the sort of the how do you say it? Um the GMs and scouts will hold that against him and his trade value. Yeah. And and as a player, you got to remember too, I think we touched on it. And if yes, the the player when he gets to be UFA will, you know, will have dollars and cents in the back of his mind. But there’s something worth. This is a team that’s giving you a pretty good opportunity. You’re very well utilized here. You’re wellliked. Does it make sense to go chase another million somewhere else to be not used properly or you know not as happy or on a losing team or there’s a place with less attention like here which is maybe you know there’s there’s that there’s opportunity is worth a certain amount of dollars. I I don’t think it’s a fixed amount but um you know get I’ll take I would take a lot less and I have to play somewhere where I’m wanted. I’m going to play a lot than to go somewhere and play a ton. And who knows, sometimes you’re just not used the same. You’re just not things aren’t if if you’re comfortable in your spot where you are, then you know, hopefully when that time comes, that’s going to be one of his one of the bargaining chips the sharks do have. It’s like, hey man, this is we gave you a real opportunity here. You can go back to New York and deal with what you deal dealt with there, but you know, you have a real opportunity here. You know, in the end, I put Anthony Cerelli as my vote. So, just so you know, it wasn’t wasn’t a teal glasses for for my for my vote. Uh, and no, I did not have Orski as my coach, even though the Strongs are in the playoffs. I had I forgot who I put in for my uh for my coach. They already asked that a quarter of the way through or a third of the way through. It’s just like a stronghold. It’s not the official one. It’s just um Yeah, like it’s just sort of like, hey, what are the writers the writers who vote in the end? What are you kind of thinking at this point? quarter of the season or a third of the season in. So, uh, and Marty St. Louis is the coach of the year. Uh, he’s a candidate, honestly. Quenville, Anaheim’s doing doing really well, right? So, right, that’s that’s another candidate, too. But anyway, okay. So, but I just wanted to mainly recognize Wenberg for the season that he is having. So, even if he Yeah. doesn’t get any I I would say I would say I would need to see even though it’s a defensive award, I would need to see a little bit more finish offensively. Sure. you know, I think Pavle Datsuk back in the day used to won a few and uh I could be wrong. Did he I don’t know if he won, but he was a good defensive player, but he was he was known as a you know, but but obviously Pav could he could obviously offensively was very good. So, the magic man. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyways, yeah, we’ll see. Um, so before we get we’re going to talk a bit about the defense here, but before we get there though, obviously Will Smith, he’s been redot recently and so love to see it. I wrote about this recently after Will Smith’s game against Utah and maybe the goal of the year there that that he that he was able to pull off that um Will Smith is is well ahead of schedule and so I know everyone compares him to Mlin that’s natural and easy. Everyone does the same with Conor Bard too, but Will Smith is I mean the Sharks are just really lucky that both Mlin and Will Smith are ahead of schedule and their one-two punch could be I mean at this rate if the Sharks are smart in their offseason editions I don’t see them in the playoffs this year but next year is is not that wild if again if Mlin gets through this the like you said this 40 game slog here and he’s still kind of doing what he’s doing. Will Smith’s able to get through it, Escaroff is able to get through it. Then then you’re talking about basically your one-two punch and your starting goalie, which I mean those are some of the most important elements of uh of your team. But anyway, I want to ask you, Dan, any other forwards kind of catch your eye before we move on to the defense? I’ve uh I’ve liked God, man. I’ve liked God. He’s been a good addition. Yeah, I I I have. Um I’m going to talk uh 51 is it? Uh I’m You love Colin Graph. Very good. I do. Yeah, I’ve talked about him. I I I like I like him, man. I I I just I like I think he’s smart. I like his work ethic. He made a back door play to uh Goodro uh last game that Oh, right. should should have been a goal, but uh that would have changed the game though kind of because it was 000 before Washington started getting Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes in the game that’s that’s you know, you score that goal and it’s like totally different game. But anyways, I I like him. I like God. Um I think he’s he’s been a he’s been a nice fit. Um, yeah. I mean, that’s those are two players right there that I think I wasn’t I guess we haven’t talked about a ton, but uh, you know, I like what Abra I like what Reeves does. I mean, he doesn’t play a ton, but he’s probably a good locker room guy. I don’t know him, but Oh, he’s a great locker room guy. Have you seen the necklace the the player of the year, the player of the game award? Well, if you don’t know this, everyone everyone kind of knows this because it’s it’s gone it’s gone viral, but uh Ryan uh bought for Okay, so for about a month Every team, every team has a player of the game and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he but for a month though they didn’t have one because um so you would see the Sharks win games early in the season and Philip Kersev would be holding like or Vinnie De would be holding like a a white board whiteboard spray expo whiteboard spray. Um you know sometimes you would just have a puck. Uh just all kinds of odd items. Someone had hockey tape one day. Odd items around the locker room. So I was like wait is this a theme of the Sharks? But no, what happened was Ryan Reeves had purchased uh uh he bought a player of the game award, but it just was stuck in the mail. It just wasn’t it wasn’t getting delivered. Um and so anyway, uh it came a couple weeks ago and it’s glorious. It basically it’s like a custommade shark tooth like necklace. I guess it’s I mean it’s not I don’t know if it’s even real shark tooth, but it’s this whole thing. It looks like a Lord of the Flies kind of thing. You think it Yeah, I don’t do social media. That’s probably why I haven’t seen it. So, is it is it player player of the game or player of the month or player of the game? You know, like in the locker room like only after a win. After a win only after a win, you know, they they they hand it to each other. A lot a lot of teams do that. We in New York in New York we had a hat. Right. Right. Exactly. Right. Yeah. So, a lot of teams have uh taken that on. But, uh yeah. No, I uh again, I don’t I don’t I like what he you know brings and makes the the guys a little tougher. So before we get to the defense, just a quick word about both God and Graph from my point of view. Uh Graph uh I don’t know if you saw the Vancouver game, but he had incredible shift I wrote about to end the game. Um six minutes left. He he’s calm with the puck along the wall. Vancouver’s down three to2. They’re they’re pressuring to try to catch up. He doesn’t rush the puck out. He gets it up to Tai Deandre who gets it out just past the blue line. Not the ideal place, but Graph doesn’t give up there. Puck’s in the neutral zone. He gets under Connor Garland. He almost steals the puck from Connor Garland in neutral zone. But what he does do is he forces the puck back to the defensive zone where Quinn Hughes gets the puck. And now you think, okay, Quinn Hughes has got the puck. That’s who Vancouver wants with the puck. Vancouver’s going to start their their breakout. They’re going to get into the Shark zone, get some chances. They’re down three to two. Here’s their chance to tie the game. Nope. Graph keeps going and he he sticks the puck off of off of Hughes’s stick. And that’s kind of effort that the sharks need. We talk about that compete, right? Yeah. That’s what they got to do like almost 100% of the time, which you’re not doing almost 100% of the 100% of the time right now, which is why they practice today when they shouldn’t have. But that’s an example though of the kind of compete that even if you’re not winning games that you need to see on a more consistent uh basis from the Sharks. Quick word about Godette. Man, I wish he was just a little bit quicker. If he was just a little bit quicker, he’s got a good shot. He’s got good instincts. He uh he’ll go to the front of the net a little bit quicker. This guy would be a middle six player, winger, center type, I think any day for a lot of teams because he does have pretty good hands. Yeah. I uh Yeah, I mean I don’t mind throwing on the power play in front of the net. Um yeah, I mean I didn’t know much about him. Obviously, he had, you know, decent numbers in Ottawa, but uh he’s been a pleasant surprise uh on my end or as someone who didn’t really know what they got out of him because I didn’t know much about him, but uh he’s been uh he’s been helpful. All right. Well, let’s talk about the Sharks defense. And this is in my comments on Twitter, it’s it’s like a a war every day because people are not happy with Warsoski’s decisions or related to the Sharks having nine defenseman on their roster. Well, eight now because Vinnie Darn went on IR, but which is a Mike Greer thing, not a Warsawi thing. But, okay, I want to start off with this one, Dan. This is my opinion. I said this before. I think that there are only two defenseman on this roster who are everyday defenseman that the Sharks uh will probably not scratch for this at any point this season, and that’s Demetri Orof and Mel Ferraro. Do you dispute any of that? Any am I missing anybody here? Uh, no. No. I think I think uh I think you’re right. I think uh everyone else is kind of either young and and you could tell they’re making some mistakes and and some of the older guys are also making mistakes. I’m sure you’re going to talk about them. So, um yeah, we’re going to get to that. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I would agree. I would agree with that. Okay. Um, so one guy I want to focus on on the younger side is Mukum Doulan because um, I think that, you know, we saw a little bit of what Mukuman could do in March, but uh, that was kind of end of year hockey and the Sharks had really no choice of who to put out there. I I went over the list of players, defenseman that that after the trade deadline that they had to play Mukuman over with Keegan last week. um guys like Vloic who’s not around anymore, just just a list of guys as like, well, yeah, this guy’s not even in the league anymore kind of kind of guys. So now he’s got to compete with with with different players and I think he he struggled um you know uh we we talked about um the the Utah game which he got sat after that game for in the Washington then he missed the Washington game. But that play I we we talked you and I talked about first Krauss goal where 5’9 Michael Caronei beats him to the pass. That to me is just unacceptable. Like that’s like not to me like on a playoff team you’re not playing on that team for this team. Okay. But I What do you think of just overall his play and just the inconsistencies? I I liked him a lot earlier. I I I did. I mean obviously uh uh I I you know with the size and the reach uh I think he was with Dehar quite a bit. They they they formed a nice little tandem there but Oh Ferraro I think. Yeah. Uh with with Ferraro. He was with Ferraro. Yeah. Did he not play with Dear? Uh Dickinson did this year. Yeah. You know what? You’re right. Sorry. That’s that’s my 17th Medela. I’m kidding. Uh sorry my brain was You’re right. Sorry I mixed them up. Um, no. I I liked him a lot earlier, but like you said, like the the goal we discussed the other day, it felt like a lazy I don’t know. I don’t want to say he’s a lazy player. I thought that was a that was a lazy laxidasical play that you just kind of like are very nonchalant. That’s the word I was looking for. Very nonchalant. Um, and I just Yeah, I just mistakes are going to happen, but I I want the mistakes to be hardworking, you know? I I can live with those kind of mistakes. The nonchalant kind of like, you know, I didn’t like that. I didn’t like that one at all. So, I think I think there’s definitely potential there. Obviously, New Jersey thought so as well, drafted him as high as as they did. Um Sharks went saw something in him to go get him. Uh so, obviously, I think there’s there’s a ton of potential, untapped potential there, but um yeah, there’s certainly been a drop off in his game for sure the last uh last couple weeks for sure. Yeah, the talent is for for sure there, but if you talk about like the mistakes of maybe engagement or if you’re not sure if the guy is engaged or not, I mean, we going back a couple weeks, um the pinch against Seattle that I don’t I don’t I don’t I don’t remember who scored, but basically he pinched and nobody was there and the puck went up the middle. He totally missed on that. Um, there was the this is not as as serious but not tying up geeky in Boston the Boston goal that that you and I we discussed too and the the two on zero uh that against Ottawa that got behind him. Not all his fault obviously because it was a bad line change too but you want a twoon zero behind him. That’s not not a good look. And then Peter too. Peter uh in not the most recent Utah game but the one before that um Peter gets behind them too. Those are ones where like if he might give you like 80% of his game might be pretty decent, but those mistakes are just like those are like just you’re giving up goals. You’re just literally giving up goals. Yeah. Yeah. I I I I again, this is where the coaching staff or even the the defense coach has a big say uh in how they treat him, how they talk to him, do they work with him and his confidence? Is it positioning? Is he reading things incorrectly or is he just nonchalant? Is he does he lack uh does he lack the the urgency to make certain plays, which some players do. They’re just a lot of players in the NHL will get there on based on skill, but you know, sometimes some guys just aren’t cut from the Logan Couture cloth or the Marty St. cloth where they’re not or or Cabbrini cloth. You could tell that some guys just sometimes their give a [ __ ] meter, you know, can be questioned. I’m not saying his is. I’m just saying like a couple of the goals I didn’t like, especially the one we talked about felt a little too loose and nonchalant for me. Yeah. And of course, I wonder, we talk a lot about this with your career, too, that how maybe it’s confidence, right? And I I know a lot of people Oh, yeah. Uh have been unhappy that he’s been sat a lot. That’s not I don’t think that’s just a Warski thing or decision. I think Mike Re is a part in that too with especially with all the defenseman on the roster. Yeah, but I recognize that I recognize that that um that Mukan hasn’t got a long stretch of games and that he had a little less rope than the veterans that we’ll get to like a John Clingberg. Yeah. But at some point though, because Mukulan’s not Sam Dickinson, he’s not 19. He’s 23. He’s been playing pro hockey for four or five years now, AHL and KHL. Um it’s a little bit of put up or shut up time, right? And it’s like, yeah, I don’t suggest that he doesn’t I don’t think he’s nonchalant, like you said, like he doesn’t care, but maybe it’s he’s got to overcome whatever that mental block is. And um I talked with Orof about this a little bit, Demetri Orof, and I asked Dimmitri like when did he kind of, you know, like what season did he feel confident as a player, as a defenseman? Yeah. And where he could bounce back from mistakes because Dmitri does do that very well now. You know, he makes Demetri does make mistakes, some pretty bad ones at times, but you don’t really see that affect his next shift, though. And he just said it took him about five seasons. It took me It took me Yeah, I was in Florida for four. And And again, opportunity is huge. Opportunity and and confidence. Uh I don’t know if they’re handinand, but uh for me, four years in Florida, uh in and out of the lineup, never quite got the opportunity, and therefore my confidence wasn’t great. All of a sudden, I get to Tampa and I go from scratched, you know, four out of five nights to playing 27 minutes a night every game. So, the opportunity was there. My confidence rose. So, um you’re right. And I don’t know this kid’s or he’s not a kid, he’s 23, but uh you know, maybe sitting out does bother him. Maybe it does hurt his confidence. Maybe his minutes aren’t as high as he wants it to be. So, you know, like I said, there’s a lot of talent there. There’s a lot of upside. Um hopefully the coaches just you know know and sometimes a player just needs more opportunity um in order to achieve and gain that confidence where huge difference if you know you’re going back on the ice after a [ __ ] it’s it’s like playing hockey or any sport with you know two 45 pound weights on your shoulders. You know you take those off you’re going to be better. I I knew for 12 years it didn’t matter in Tampa. it didn’t matter in San Jose, it didn’t matter if I made a mistake, I was going back out there the next shift. And it allowed me to play my game. And uh whereas if first four years in Florida, last two years in New York, it was more like, okay, if I [ __ ] up here, I’m going to be my ass is going to be on the bench. And uh maybe there’s a little bit little bit of that in his game as well. Yeah. I do want to point out though that we or your coaching staffs eventually learned the kind of reward that they could get by keeping you out there despite your mistakes. And we haven’t seen that reward from a mukulan. And so I know the easy thing to kind of if you’re a fan to harp on is well play him then play him for 10 20 games in a row. What is the what is what is the reward of doing that? What’s the ceiling there? Right. I Yeah. No, I was going to say go ahead. No, go ahead. No, no, you go. I was just going to say I was just going to tease that I think that there is going to be a runway for Mukuman soon to play a good stretch of games if he can stay healthy. But we’ll get to that in a second. But Dan, you were going to No, I I I was just going to refer back to an old episode where I talked about the seven or eight out of 10 rule that I had. Right. Eight out of 10 Dickensson about that. He laughed that I had where it’s like if you get rewarded eight out of 10 times and I’ll let you do it. But you’re right. If the reward isn’t there and the mistakes continue to happen, then that’s when it’s like, okay, well, what’s the payoff here for having this guy on the ice, having this guy in the lineup? What am I getting as a benefit to trade off for the one or two mistakes he’s going to make a night? Am I getting, you know, a quarterback on the power play? Am I getting a shut down Dman? Am I getting a guy who’s going to give me one or two points a night? No. So, what what what does he need to do to earn maybe the the the extra or the extra opportunity? His is not an offensive game like mine was, but I don’t know. Does he does he need to be more physical? Does he need to be fight once in a while? I don’t know. He just does he need to just be harder to play against. Whatever it is, he’s got to earn that. Figure it out. Yeah. And I don’t mean to just uh dump on Mukuman on this episode. So, I also want to ask about and we’re going to get to Cleanberg and Lety, but uh what have you thought about uh when you watch Dickinson and Iorio too in a limited time? Any thoughts on either of those guys? I think those guys are definitely I again it’s this is not a just dump on Muk Madulan episode. Dickinson and Iorio are have been really no in my mind really not much better than Mukuman. They are talented all of all of them all three of them but they are also very citable too. Absolutely. Yeah. and and they all have size, right? So, they all bring size. Um, so the payoff there is, you know, if you’re gonna, you know, you I’d like to see a little bit more physicality out of them. Um, but you’re right. I mean, what is the payoff of having those guys in the lineup versus not? And that’s where I don’t think any of them have necessarily and you know one of them is 19 years old of course but right I don’t think any of those guys are are grabbing their spot and and you know telling the coaches you’re not taking me out of the lineup here. So um it’s been uh yeah it’s been it’s been up and down for everybody I think as a whole the bar is high for the Sharks. Pavenda to score two goals sent down. Well, yeah, he got he he Yeah. Yeah. I saw the goal he scored last night. Did he even touch it? I mean, I don’t know. I mean, he just it was like his first goal. I don’t even know if he know he scored it. But to Pavo’s credit, though, he goes to the net. He went to the net. He goes to the net. He did that last year with the Barracuda. He actually is, at least in the AHL, he’s actually a very good net front player. NHL maybe just got a little lucky there. Yeah. Either way, though, he was in the right place. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But anyway, um I think the the runway here for Mukuma Madulan though is if Dickinson goes to Royal Juniors and if uh you know DR is on IR right now and and Vinnie has kind of had kind of established himself as close to that that in maybe the Lugren category where maybe they’re not everyday Sharks defenseman but they’re a little bit higher in sort of uh the pecking order than maybe the young guys because they do enough U Vinnie obviously on the PK there and so that could be a runway for Mukuman to get a good stretch of games and really okay here’s your 10 games okay you did it last year when you got some games in a row do it do it again um we’ll see though yeah that’s that’s just sort of a thought on my part that I think that for Sharks fans impatient with the 89 defenseman and whatnot that it would make sense for Dickinson to go to road juniors and just again play 20 minutes a night be a star be are possibly Canada’s number one defenseman because Matthew Schaefer is not going um and so kind of like Michael Misan just get that confidence with the puck and put up some points and and play against your peers. Yeah. Uh I want to agree with you, but I I still think something’s got to click at the NHL level. Um I’ I’ve never been in the position to have to go back down necessarily, per se. The only the most comparative thing I You never you never got that. Well, the most the most comp the most comparable thing I can do is NHL to AHL. So, I I I started my fresh or my freshman my my first season uh played 40 games in Kentucky, got sent up and then got sent down and uh how can I say this? Like I could I could this is actually I don’t want to sound cocky right I I could do what I want in the like I I could you know what I mean something still had to you so you can send me back down to the or juniors and I can be the best defenseman down there but at some point it has to click at the NHL level. So for me, I still think uh I still think that yeah, I still think it has to be done at the NHL level, no matter no I you know what I mean? Like I guess there’s something to be said about going down, finding your confidence, finding whatever, feeling the puck again or whatever, but at some point it has to click at at the level that you’re at playing against the best players in the world. Oh, sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I I think that uh it just is a good opportunity for for Dickinson just to again just play along. Oh yeah. Yeah. World juniors to play for Canada to win a gold medal. I mean yeah that’s that’s that’s literally a life opportunity that you’re giving a kid to have a life experience that he’s going to be amazing and learn how to win and learn to compete and stuff and then he takes that back to his NHL team. And you know, I think no, there’s something for that that’s worth quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah. And I think again that that if that does alleviate maybe some of the roster pressure maybe. So we’ll we’ll see on that. But be the last kind of big topic I want I want to get on before we uh we we take it out here is I want to talk about uh the your mortality as a hockey player, right? And I don’t want to say that Cleanberg and Ley like they they’re you know they may have some some good useful hockey left in the tank but I think it’s also fair to look at that they are not the players that they that they were it looks appears uh that they used to be great players both of them uh I want to yeah let’s not forget was a top six nor guy a couple times was a top four staple for playoff teams for a long long time here but that, you know, we saw Cleanberg last night in Washington. He was bad and he’s been uh, you know, I I don’t think he’s been as bad on the power play as people make it out to be. He still moves the puck really well. But though, some of the worst plays though in terms of just getting stuck high and getting eaten alive by the penalty killer, that’s that wasn’t just a last night thing. I mean, I think over the last like month or so, you can point to three, four other times where he’s just been taking advantage of high and he’s holding on to the puck too much, trying to do too much with the puck and then he’s getting swarmed and then it’s odd man rush out of the way and it just kind of unacceptable hockey if you’re trying to make it to the playoffs at least. So anyway, Dan, I just want to ask you though, um, just uh Oh, and I actually do want to add about Lety, too, that Lety hasn’t played as many games as Clingberg, but I think it’s very very telling that they’re not using Lety a lot. He’s been healthy for about a couple weeks here. And in his in his prime, not even his prime, even two years ago in St. Louis, he was he’s healthy. He’s in a lineup kind of guy, like no questions asked about him. But age catches up with with everybody. I talked with a couple scouts about him just to make sure just to verify kind of what verify the Sharks usage of him. How the Sharks are using him tell you that they don’t see him as everyday player anymore obviously because he’s only played a couple games over the last couple weeks and he’s been again he’s been healthy. Scouts say yeah they think that he has lost his step and Nick Ley is Nick Ley in his prime was considered the most beautiful skater, the best skater in the league. Not pure speed but just his his footwork, right? His edge work. So, so if he’s lost that, then he’s lost a lot of his game there, unfortunately. So, I just want to say that about him. Clingberg, what he’s lost, we can kind of see it’s a little more it’s in our face kind of with some of the turnovers. So, but Dan, I want just want to ask you and again, you know, we’re not saying that that these guys are are are done by any stretch, but for you though as a player, uh what happens on the ice for you that you know that moment that I’m just not the guy that I used to be? Yeah. Um, well, three things come jump to mind and and and in the NHL, like skating is is is so freaking important. And I think with those two in particular, you could tell, you know, I don’t know that Clingberg’s skating was always great, uh, per se. You know, obviously Lety Letty’s was probably the pure speed part of it for him at least. But that’s probably the first thing that goes where, you know, I noticed it the last two years, uh, where pushing off or like it’s like your body, you want your head wants your body to do something and and I don’t know how to explain it. It’s like you your you want to do something and your body’s not doing what you want it to do. So that’s that’s what we call losing a step. Uh, and so your brain wants to make those plays you were making at 27, 28, 31, 32, but your feet and your body is not allowing it. And that’s where, you know, some of the mistakes are made. And I’m seeing a little bit of that. Um, especially with Clingberg being more the type of player that I was on the blue line and stuff like that. Yeah. Where you have to adjust. Um, and the other thing is like with with with injuries and with rest and stuff, I I thought I came into New York, I had a great camp. I had a really good camp and I broke my thumb in the first game. And then the recovery the recovery were like back in the day was a non-issue. It just takes that much longer to like like to get back into it. And so I remember in New York I I thought I had a great camp, you know, I was playing really well and then boom, break my thumb and then it took like instead of taking like a month, it took like two and a half months to get, you know, back into it. So just takes a little longer, but I would say speed. Um, and then one thing I was terrible at, terrible, uh, was taking a lesser role. I think accepting accepting a lesser role is something that I was not very good at. So in New York, you know, asking me to play 14 minutes a night, you know, in and out, like I wasn’t good at that. A lot of guys can be, and I sucked at that. I get I get an F for that. I wasn’t very good. I wanted to be on the ice. I wanted to play every night. Uh but some guys do a better job of accepting the reduced roles and can be a really good presence in the locker room and embrace what they morph into. I I just wasn’t very good at that. And I don’t know these two players. I don’t know if they’re having a hard time, you know, playing less, uh, being in and out of the lineup. U, but for me, it was very, very difficult up here to accept that. And I think that’s something that those guys probably need to accept. Uh, I just didn’t do very well. And then the third thing, and I and I I will cannot speak for them. I don’t know them, but it’s it’s your it’s your your your the pilot light, I call it, the passion for the game. Uh you could tell my last two years it was starting to like almost like looking at a fireplace where the pilot light was like going out and it’s just your passion for the game waking up wanting to go to the rink um you know 21 22 32 35 you’re excited you know but as you as you get to 38 at least for me 39 like [ __ ] you know it was like you kind of you lose you lose you combine it with playing less you combine it lose your passion for these guys. is is most guys it’s it’s when their body gives up on them. But for some of us that are able to make it in our late 30s and some guys in their their 40s, you just at some point you just lose your I’ve got, you know, you know, Ovetchkin, you know, he’s got his 900th goal now. He’s got the most goal. You know what what’s I I don’t know. Does he play another year? Maybe, maybe he doesn’t. I don’t know. But sometimes what are you playing for at some point? You know, I I had won a gold medal. I had won a Stanley Cup. you know, I was seeing my ice time being reduced. I was in that lineup. I just for me, I just lost the passion. So, um, with those two guys in particular, what I’m seeing is just having to adjust to their bodies maybe changing a little bit. Um, right. uh you know, you you you’re trying to make plays that you can make with your eyes closed two, three years ago and then I don’t know, you just like you want to push off where you would normally cut a guy off. All of a sudden, you push off and you’re you don’t get the push you want and all of a sudden you’re [ __ ] 3 feet behind the guy’s going down on a breakaway where it’s like two years ago you would have pushed off no problem. Cut that guy off right away. Right. Little things like that, you start to notice and go, “What? Why the [ __ ] isn’t why why and but that’s just the the clock. That’s the the body saying I’m I’m I’ve had enough here.” Yeah. I didn’t want to mention with Lety that he was coming off the injury this year. So maybe there that is a part of that. Maybe we’ll get a better Nick Lety in a couple weeks or a month. So I don’t want I I think Yeah. I think I think with him just based on again everything’s based on just an opinion what I’ve gone through. I’m sharing with you guys what I’ve gone through where he’s his recovery in the past could have been quicker and instant. I feel as you get older, you know, um it takes longer. So maybe a month or two from now all of a sudden we see the guy that they went and got. Yeah. Yeah. Uh you know, you you touch on the mental grind part of it, too, and I I didn’t I didn’t know that about your your time in New York. Um, you know, you’re always considered like a a positive locker room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was positive with the guys. I’m sure I’m sure you weren’t negative, but like what how did that kind of um you know, when you’re down on yourself really like like you just feel like you maybe speak up a little less, maybe you give out a little less advice. Not that again you’re not a negative presence, but just you’re a little more in your own world maybe. Yeah. Yeah. you set certainly again we had a good team in New York and we had a lot of leadership and uh you know you don’t want to be the guy with you know you know the the the bitter beer face walking around moping around all that you don’t want to do that but certainly you know you try to put on a face and you try to be there for your teammates but when you get in that car after practice or after a game on your way home I wasn’t happy you know I was [ __ ] pissed off you know and it’s like and we had a good team but I just, you know, I could tell like I wanted more, I wanted more or you know, thing, you know, whatever it is. You you you you put on a face when you can. You try to be as good of a teammate as you can. Just some guys are way better at adjusting than I was. I just uh yeah, I didn’t I did not like a reduced role. I I I I did not do very well with it. Do you think just for yourself that you could have extended your career if you just accepted, you know, just being a third pairing guy? Probably. I mean, you see guys do it, right? like teams is doing it now. Players do do that, right? Yeah. I retired. I was 39 going on 40. Um I I I I had teams that wanted to sign me. I just I had two kids. I didn’t want to put them through that. And for me, it was my my pilot light went out. I was just like, “No, I could have kept playing because I was a decent skater.” Um I think that that allowed me to play a little longer than, you know, most defenseman. Not too many defensemen will get to play in their 40s. Um, but yeah, it would it would have had to have been me accepting a reduced role and I I couldn’t I just I didn’t I couldn’t I couldn’t do it, man. And I and that’s I’m just being honest. And some guys are great at it. Uh some guys are really good at it, actually. Uh I just I was terrible. I didn’t like it. Yeah. I think you see that with Clingberg a little bit in the sense of he’s doing things that like what are you doing? But I’m sure that these are things that worked when he was in Dallas or when he was in his prime. And they asked when San Jose signed him, they asked him to come here and be the PP1 like he used to be in Dallas, not be that secondary role. How old is he? He’s 33 now. Okay. So, he’s had a lot of hip hip issues. Yeah. So, maybe it’s more of that cuz I I Yeah. I mean, I I at 33 I felt great. 34 felt great. 35 Yeah. Uh 36 was my concussion year. So, that was that was a big big part of it. But no, I I at 33 I I don’t think that’s but but he does have hip hip issues. Um so I I think he moves reasonably well. I think a lot of it is that he just the decision-m like again if he a little bit like Mukumi if you take out like the 10% of the the brain cramp kind of errors that you’re you’re you’re way happy or you’re like okay maybe this guy can play for us every night. Um whereas like a guy like Lety um Lety is still I mean look said he was such a great skater so he’s still a great skater but you know again maybe like yourself where it’s just not quite what it used to be and then you have to rely on other things to kind of get by right to you know to survive in NHL. Yeah. I remember a time when I was with San Jose in my I want to say it was my third year. I had a broken foot and and I played I remember cuz I did an interview with Jamie Bick and no one knew cuz back when I played social media wasn’t a big deal and uh you didn’t have to disclose all these injuries and uh so I played I want to say God it must have been four to six weeks uh where if you saw me walking home you’d be like what’s wrong with them? But I for whatever reason I could you know back then it wasn’t as well covered. Uh but I did an interview with Jamie Baker and they’re like well what you’re you know they were like he was like you’re you know you’re really coming together you’re playing well and I was and I just didn’t think about it. I I was like yeah you know you know it was hard with a broken foot. And he goes you had a broken foot and I’m like oh shoot I shouldn’t have said anything right. It just it was like a moment in time. But it reminds me of like I did play with a broken foot for four to six weeks. And although I was 33, I was still same thing. I was trying to make these plays that I was making uh a week before I broke my foot, which which I could make in my sleep. And I was trying to make these plays. So imagine instead of broke being a broken foot, it just being your body being older. I was trying to make these plays and I was slower. And I was everything was slower. everything was like I wasn’t and and I remember the the the the the mood at the time was that I was Dan Boy was getting kind of older and slower and the clock was, you know, but I was like, “No, I was just [ __ ] I’m in pain, you know.” So, um yeah, I think I think as as you know, Clingberg or whatever, maybe he’s trying to do stuff that his body just used to be able to do and now he’s not. Or maybe it’s something else. Who knows? What do we know? Right. Right. Right. And how hard is that acceptance though of needing to change your game though, which maybe you you you pieced out on? Well, I mean, again, if if it’s injury related, uh, and and you do have to adapt and adjust and yeah, um, even at at his age, you got to learn to to adapt, adapt and adjust and and and and put yourself in a different position and try something different. And uh obviously if if something’s not working, don’t you know, you got to you got to not do it. Eight out of 10. Eight out of 10 I’m good with. Yeah. Four, five out of 10, no bueno. Is that what you got to in New York or maybe it was like a little more five out of 10, six out of 10 for some? It was different in New York. It was It was uh We could spend a whole podcast on my time in New York. I I uh it was it was tough because Yeah, my time in New York was different. And I had a great team and and we had a president winning you know team but um you know I was asked to play a game that I just like I remember them you know a weekend saying I want you to put it off the glass and I was like well why am I here that’s not what I’m here for. So my time in New York is different. It was more of a battle of like what the way they wanted me to play versus the way that I’m and so for me it was a constant battle. Okay, they want me to do this whereas I want to do this and I got caught in between sometimes. Um versus the 12 years in Tampa and San Jose where it was just it was like boiler go play your game which confidence ties into that. Uh and I could just the weight was off my shoulders for 12 years. I could just play my game. uh as was part of the mental grind too just and you know I think we as the media we’re not too tough on on on players here compared to the rest of the league. I was just thinking about this yesterday. I’m not encouraging you guys to boo Johnberg by the way but I was just thinking like the Sharks I I can’t think of an example of the Sharks kind of just booing their own constantly even if they’re unhappy with him. I think there was a little bit for Eric Carlson uh back in the day when he was, you know, not at his best and he had a big contract, but it wasn’t that that overwhelming. Uh and there are examples in some cities where they basically boole player out of town. Um and so I’m glad San Jose is not like that, by the way. But uh but how hard is that part of it where you know your your game is declining? There’s expectations of your career that you know what you’ve done. people expect the same of you of what you’ve done before and so people are asking about it. I’m going to give John especially a lot of credit. John is very upfront. He’ll always talk. He always tries to have a smile. Um but like you mentioned though driving home, he’s you must be thinking about it. And anyway, just how tough was that part? The additional side of of media and maybe fans too just you know you’re not who you were and are seeing it. Yeah, it’s hard. And again, there’s so many variables like there’s opportunity, there’s there’s confidence level, there’s what do they what are they telling the player in the locker room that you’re just, you know, there there’s just there’s just so many variables. Sometimes players are doing what they’re asked to do and the result is shitty and you blame the player, but the player’s doing exactly what he’s supposed to do. Um, so yeah, there’s there’s too many variables. I’m sure I don’t know him at all, but uh hearing booze I can’t imagine would be would be great unless you’re in the the posing arena. That’s the best. I loved hearing booze when I when I went to other you know in LA you get to boo all the time. Happen when you’re in San, right? No no you don’t want to do you don’t you don’t want to get booted. You don’t I mean we would get booed on the as a power play unit or something you know that’s fine. We take it as a team as a as a unit but no as a single player that’s got to be tough. And I don’t care what player you are and what face you put on and what you tell the media or you know you know when you get in your car that’s that’s a tough that’s a tough one. And I guess for me I’m I’m going to harp on the same thing again. Are the mistakes made uh out of laziness and out of nonchalant or are they just if the effort’s there I think there’s something that we could work with and so I think you know sounds like he’s a good good good guy. U he’s trying he’s trying you know. Um, so I think I think those are mistakes that we can work with and correct. Yeah, I John’s mistakes stay I think they look from a distance like maybe a little nonchalant, but I don’t think they are though. Um, I I don’t think that they would keep kind of playing him if if if that was the case. So just, you know, to say that. But I guess my my final question then we’ll we’ll we’ll we’ll leave here is I mean you watched you played against Sean Klingberg kind of in his prime. played against Nick Ley in his prime and so, you know, not to just uh spotlight those guys, but what are you seeing just uh in terms of just what what they can do now as opposed to what they used to be able Yeah. Well, let not fair. I just haven’t seen enough of his game. Uh I know back in the day he was a tremendous skater. Obviously, he’s got he’s won uh he was a part big part of his the teams that won in Chicago. He wasn’t just like a nobody. Uh, but you know, his skating was obviously his uh his bread and butter. Um, and then with Clingberg with Dallas, I mean, him and Niskinan kind of both very effective offensive defenseman. Niskin a little bit more of a skater, but uh, Clingberg was very smart. Um, better with the puck kind of a thing. So, um, effective player for sure, very effective players in Dallas. And uh again, I there’s just too many unknowns and it’s still fairly early in the season, you know. Um but yeah, I mean it’s it’s got to be tough on them. You know, we expect the power play in San Jose’s been pretty good for for many years and you know, we we we had me and we had, you know, I guess Eric Carlson and you’ve had your your staple, you know, quarterback back there with Burn Brent Burns. Sorry. Sorry about that. Burns in there. Um, so you know, it’s it’s a tough it’s a tough position. It’s a tough position. You got to deliver and uh he’s in a tough spot. And anyway, I guess the way that I would I would kind of sum it all up is that just going back to the beginning that I think there are only two defenseman in this lineup that deserve to be every night, which is uh really a kind of so if Warski has to go back to Clingberg, I understand because there I don’t think there’s any clerk choices. I do tend to agree that okay, Mugmulan, he’s kind of at a put up shut up time. So maybe just give him a stretch of games and see if he can put up and so we don’t have to talk anything more about his confidence and here’s 10 games figure it out. Um so I think that could be good but otherwise besides that Dickinson I understand kind of the yo-yoing with him he’s just 19 he can take it. Um, and besides that, who else should be in the lineup? Yeah, Lillig Lilligren has looked great some nights and some nights I’m heable, right? I question, you know, some of the stuff that’s going on, but again, I’m not into the locker room. I’m not under I don’t know what’s going on. Is he making mistakes based on his reads or is it like team reads? I just I don’t know. I just I just know he’s he’s looked great at times and sometimes, you know, not so much. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Ferraro, I think, you know, the effort is always there, but beyond the effort though that he’s actually when he’s on uh very good, I think, one-on-one defender. He’s got that quick twitch that’s always valuable uh defending. And Orof obviously is an allaround game and Orlof is uh you know, cool with the puck and um he’s physical too. He he he hits people. Sharks haven’t had a guy who who have that physical from the blue line in a long long time. So anyway, so those are kind of why I think they uh they deserve to be in the lineup every night, but anyway, I I don’t envy kind of Warsoski’s choices here. So yeah. Yeah. Well, again, I think if we can see a little bit more of that team uh that aggressive team uh like with the pinching that we saw like three weeks ago, like was doing that very well. Yeah. And so was Clingberg. And so and so was Klingberg. Uh was there too. That’s that’s when I I thought the Sharks were at their best. You know, I think when we we play defensive a little bit too much, then then I think that’s where some of your three, four, five, six, seventh defenseman get a little more exposed. Um, so hopefully we can get back to playing that offensive style, aggressive with forwards backing up the D, pinching, you know, but um, yeah, it’s a I mean, ability is there, you know, Dickinson and Mukuma move well, too. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, let’s go. How did we do today, Shank Pang? I got to go pick up my kids. I’ve only had I’ve only had two adults. How we did? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s a good thing to clear up. So yeah. Yeah, just two medellas. That’s all. That’s all right, people. I’m all right. All right, guys. Well, thanks again for having us. So, excuse me. Hopefully, we’ll get more of the team back next week. We’ll see. Uh but all right. So, good to good to see you, Dan, and we’ll see all of you soon. Good job, buddy. [Music]
It’s a dream (or nightmare?) lefty-righty combo: Sheng is paired with just Dan Boyle today!
Does Macklin Celebrini have a strong case for the Hart Trophy? Sheng thinks so.
How about Alex Wennberg for…Selke? It’s not as crazy as it sounds.
We also discuss the state of the San Jose Sharks’ blueline: Who deserves to play every night?
What’s going on with Shakir Mukhamadullin? What’s a path for the young San Jose Sharks defenseman to get more consistent playing time?
Dan is honest about what he’s seen from John Klingberg this season. Sheng asked some NHL scouts about Nick Leddy.
Finally, Dan recalls when he knew that it was time for him to retire. He shares the mental challenge of adjusting to a lesser role in his last two years with the New York Rangers.
Sponsored by Bring Hockey Back. Custom jerseys, hockey gear & tees for every fan. Use promo code: SANJOSEHOCKEYNOW for 15% off.
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Timestamps
(00:00:00) – Intro: Aging Players, Sharks D and Celebrini MVP
(00:07:02) – Why Zubair and Keegan Are Out This Week
(00:07:34) – Michael Misa’s AHL Conditioning Stint
(00:10:02) – What Shane Wright’s Path Means for Misa’s Development
(00:13:36) – San Jose Sharks’ Inconsistent Compete Level Over the Last Month
(00:15:23) – Surviving the NHL Season’s “Middle 40” Game Grind
(00:18:03) – Sharks’ Practice Response to the 7–1 Capitals Loss
(00:21:19) – Is Macklin Celebrini the MVP Right Now?
(00:24:51) – Where Celebrini Ranks Among Superstars
(00:29:35) – Making the Selke Case for Alex Wennberg
(00:36:18) – Will Smith’s Surge and the Sharks’ Future Core
(00:37:31) – Why Gaudette and Graf Are Quietly Fitting In
(00:42:05) – Only 2 True Every Night D-men on San Jose Sharks
(00:43:09) – Shakir Mukhamadullin’s Growing Pains and Usage
(00:52:33) – Sorting Out Dickinson, Iorio and the Young D Depth
(00:57:31) – World Juniors Decisions for Dickinson and Misa
(00:58:05) – When a Player Realizes He’s Not the Same Anymore
(01:00:03) – Losing a Step: Skating, Injuries and Recovery Time
(01:03:01) – Accepting Reduced Roles and the Pilot Light Test
(01:09:03) – How Systems and Roles Can Break or Elevate a D-Man
(01:13:00) – Boos, Media Pressure and the Veteran Mindset
(01:17:03) – What Sharks Really Have on Defense Right Now
(01:20:31) – Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up
1 comment
Nice!