CLEVELAND, Ohio — For a franchise that has built its identity on exceptional starting pitching, the Guardians find themselves in unfamiliar territory. Their starting rotation, expected to be the team’s backbone, is instead leading the American League in a category no pitcher wants to dominate – walks issued.
In a recent episode of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast, Paul Hoynes and Joe Noga examined this alarming trend that threatens to undermine the team’s early success.
“This is a team built on starting pitching, and you’ve got four guys that can’t throw strikes,” Hoynes remarked with evident frustration. “Logan Allen, 19 walks, Luis Ortiz, 19 walks. Gavin Williams, 19 walks. Tanner Bibee, 16 walks.”
The numbers paint a disturbing picture. Four of Cleveland’s primary starters rank among the American League leaders in bases on balls, creating a cascading effect that impacts every aspect of the team’s pitching strategy.
Most immediately, these walks are dramatically shortening outings. As Noga explained, “The problem is, in order to walk that many guys, you’ve got to throw that many more pitches during a start, and it shortens your start. These guys are only going to be out there for 100 pitches no matter what.”
This pitch inefficiency was on full display in Gavin Williams’ recent start against Toronto, where he threw a staggering 100 pitches in just four innings, including five walks. His previous outing against Minnesota wasn’t much better – 61 pitches to record just six outs.
The strain on Cleveland’s normally reliable bullpen has become increasingly evident. Relievers like Cade Smith, typically needing around 10 pitches to navigate an inning, are now frequently throwing 26 or more pitches per appearance. This unsustainable workload threatens to break down even the most resilient arms as the season progresses.
Beyond the statistical impact, Hoynes identified deeper concerns about what these walk totals indicate: “That’s just not throwing the ball in the strike zone. That’s not having confidence in your stuff. That’s not being aggressive in the strike zone and throwing quality strikes. It means you’re searching – something is off with your mechanics.”
The timing of this command crisis raises questions about potential underlying issues. While neither host suggested specific injury concerns, Noga did wonder whether health might be playing a role, noting that it’s “still early enough in the season where you might be able to shut down a guy who’s got some shoulder fatigue.”
For a Cleveland organization that has consistently developed and maintained excellent starting pitching, this collective control problem represents an unexpected challenge. The rotation’s inability to throw strikes not only taxes the bullpen but fundamentally alters the team’s competitive equation.
With a high-powered Philadelphia Phillies lineup coming to Progressive Field, the Guardians’ pitching staff faces an immediate opportunity to address their command issues – or risk watching their early-season success erode with each free pass issued.
To hear the complete breakdown of Cleveland’s pitching concerns and other Guardians insights, check out the full episode of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast with Paul Hoynes and Joe Noga.
Note: Artificial intelligence was used to help generate this story from the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast by cleveland.com. Visitors to cleveland.com have asked for more text stories based on website podcast discussions.
Podcast transcript
Joe Noga 0:04Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes, Hoynes. The Guardians set to open a three-game weekend series against the Philadelphia Phillies at Progressive Field. Beginning tonight, we’ll get to a preview of that series here in a in a few moments, I just wanted to mention, you know, this is.This is a historic sort of 24 hours in the, you know, on the off day, a new Pope’s been elected. The first American Pope, American born Pope, a Chicago born Pope. So I don’t know the Chicago White Sox and Cubs fans have to be celebrating.That.That election there in Rome, you’ve been covering baseball in Cleveland for four popes now. If you go back to Pope John Paul the 2nd hoinsey, this is a pretty pretty momentous occasion. The first American Pope and the first one who I think would have had a rooty interest in.I would have been praying for rain in game seven of the 2016 World Series and and, you know, we know we know what happened at at that point. So the Cubs coming out on top, you know, might have been influenced by the new Pope, Leo the 14th, the the guy from Chicago. How do you, how do you think this affects baseball?Right.
Paul Hoynes 1:24This is great, Joe. I’ve got. I went to school at Marquette with a bunch of guys from Chicago, and I’ve been getting e-mail. I’ve been getting texts, you know, showing them, you know, that he’s a Cubs fan, that he’s praying for the Bears, that he’s, you know him. And they’ve got him sitting next to Ditka. You know the coach.It’s been funny, it’s been great. And so, yeah, I don’t know. I guess he is a Cubs fan. That’s what. That’s what I’ve heard. But he was kind of born close to the South side, and that’s a White Sox territory too. So it’ll be interesting to see just, you know, how much.
Joe Noga 2:02Yeah.
Paul Hoynes 2:03The sway he has on the grand old game.
Joe Noga 2:05Yeah, the the fortunes of the White Sox finally shifting with a a new guy in the in on on the chair in in Rome, so to speak. Yeah, I’m the I’m. I’m friends with the the head coach of the Arizona Cardinals, John Gannon and his.First text to me was, you know, the the the American Americans get their first poke before the the Browns get to their first Super Bowl, which I thought was, you know, kind of a funny statement coming there. So just something to keep an eye on, I guess.
Paul Hoynes 2:36Yeah.
Joe Noga 2:45With the way things are changing in the game, how how many you know just we can’t have the wind tunnel be the explanation. I guess at Progressive Field anymore. If when a home run blows fair or foul for the other White Sox when they’re playing there, but we’ll move.On from that, we’ll move on to you know, an interesting point that you raised with your your post this morning on Cleveland Com just does Stephen Vogt have a a budding shortstop crisis on his hands based on playing time and based on, you know, just the facts of what we’re seeing with each.Starting lineup that comes out and with the, you know, a guy like Brian Rocchio who had a hitless road trip for the Guardians in Toronto and Washington. Meanwhile, on the other side, you’ve got Gabriel Arias, who seems to have had the light switch go off. He’s hitting the ball well.Well, you know, one of the the the team’s most consistent hitters at this point, he hits for power. He plays good defense, can play all over the diamond. But you know, he’s a natural shortstop. His, he’s got the arm for it. He’s got the instincts for it. You know what? How do you see this sort of playing out over the year after, you know, rokio?Spent most of last season and and the playoff run as the number one guy for the Guardians at the spot.
Paul Hoynes 4:10It’s it’s really interesting, Joe, because you know they could option rokio to to Columbus. He’s got an option left. Then you know insert areas as a full time shortstop, but that that hurts, you know, votes.Versatility. His his his ability to move areas all over the board because if you look at the roster, Daniel Schneeman could be the backup shortstop. He can play shortstop. We’ve seen him play there, but he hasn’t started a game there this year and but other than that, who do you? Who I mean Angel.Martinez, we haven’t seen him a whole lot at shortstop. He’s been playing mostly center field, you know, so there’s a there’s, you know, there’s there’s a kind of he, if he. If they do that, they kind of limit their choice and we know with Juan Britto.On the IL at at Columbus, that hurts their middle infield depth, so I don’t know if they really, you know, send roccio down. I think they stick with him. They try to get him out of this slump. And you know, they keep, they keep areas on the move, playing second play base.You know, filling in a third base, you know, we’re just moving around the diamond as they’ve had as they had, especially when they they they used them last year.
Joe Noga 5:34Yeah, they’ve also got Will Wilson on the roster right now. Who’s who’s versatile and he can play shortstop. He can play third base. We haven’t seen him that much at second base, but I’m sure he’d probably, you know, take a few reps there in, in, in my mind, you know, Daniel Schneeman at shortstop is.
Paul Hoynes 5:36Yeah.
Joe Noga 5:54An option, but not probably the best one that you would want starting games and and and trying to spend a lot of time there. He’s a guy who might be able to jump over to shortstop if you’re late in the game and you’ve made a bunch of pinch hitting moves and you know guys are are jumping all over the place and and he can fill in it in.There, but I don’t think he’s consistently the level of defense that you want at that spot. He does a fine job at second base and and has held down the the spot so far. Your best defense is probably rocchio at short. Arius at 2nd right now, but I just I just get the feeling that.That Arias you know is more comfortable at short, and you can make things work with a guy like Schneemann at second base. And you know, this is all leading to down the road. You’ve got Travis bezana, your number one overall pick, and he’s.You’re you’re holding that spot. You’re grooming him for that second base spot. The question is going to be who’s going to be the shortstop when Bazana arrives? Either you know, late this year, at some point next year, is it going to be Brian Rocchio? Is it going to be Gabriel Arias? And if it’s going to be Gabriel Arias?You know, why not just give it to him now and let him get himself, you know, just sort of comfortable and and firm and and and ready in that spot for Travis Bezana to arrive.
Paul Hoynes 7:23Yeah. That makes sense, Joe. You know, I just. And you’re right, Arias is a natural shortstop. He’s having, you know, a really kind of a breakout year in his career, at least in the big league portion of his career. What? Hitting 289. He had a great road trip, so.So you know, and he and when you look at it, second base is probably the the the you know his the the position he’s played the least on the infield. So it makes sense. I just don’t know if they if they want to you know just kind of step away from Ropefield right now because.You know, he was, you know, Gold Glove finalist last year at shortstop. He did have a good postseason, but we just haven’t seen that guy this year, offensively or even defensively. Joe, he’s, you know, he’s not. He’s a switch hitter and he’s not hitting from either side of the plate. He hasn’t hit a home run since September.And like you said, he goes 0 for 16 on on the just completed the six game trip. This is a guy that you know needs to get his needs to kind of take a deep breath and and and just go out and play.
Joe Noga 8:36Yeah. And you wonder if the the issues are sort of between the ears sort of issues rather than any sort of mechanical or you know swing type things because we really haven’t seen that much of A drastic change in him since the postseason last year. So just.There.There’s, there’s got to be confidence issues right now. It’s natural when you see the other guy, you know performing well and you know you put that kind of pressure on yourself. I’m sure he feels a tremendous amount of pressure right now. Steven Vogt would never say that there’s sort of pressure on Brian rookie, but when he was asked directly, you know.During this trip to Washington, the vote said that his quote was, you know, he knows he needs to play better. So something like that is pretty significant. I think they’re pretty much aware of it and and we’ll see how that position shakes out moving forward, but expect to continue to see.
Paul Hoynes 9:23Yeah.
Joe Noga 9:36Gabriel Arias, who’s swinging a hot bat, stay in that shortstop spot as much as possible.
Paul Hoynes 9:43Yeah. And the thing that concerns you about Rocchio is defensively, last year it was plus 11 in defensive runs saved according to the Fielding Bible. Right now he’s a 3. Last year in Statcast, he finished the year with five runs. I mean, you know, with a grade of five.You know, outs above average for 10th. Now he’s, you know 16 with a 0 meaning you know he’s playing average defense. So they’re not getting the stellar defense out of him either.
Joe Noga 10:15Yeah, and and it’s the, it’s the routine plays that you occasionally now see him not making that are, you know, concerning surprising sort of unusual. We’re not used to seeing that out of Guardian shortstops for for quite some time now. So that’s definitely.Adding to the not not necessarily full blown controversy, but it’s it’s an area of concern right now at shortstop, talking about other areas of concern, the starting rotation and the the walk rate, the the free pass is being issued by starting pitchers.For the guardians, something that was an issue over the road trip and it has been for a while, three guys in the top 20 in in most runs or most walks allowed in the American League. Just what are we seeing out of Guardian starters and their command of the strikes?So.
Paul Hoynes 11:16Yeah, Joe, it’s, it’s, it’s really mysterious to me. I mean, this is a team built on starting pitching and you’ve got four guys that can’t throw. You know that keep walking people. Logan Allen, 19 walks, Luis Ortiz, 19 walks, Gavin Williams, 19 walks.Tanner Bybee, 16, walks and then you’ve got lively Ben Lively at 13 walks and Joey Quintillo out of the bullpen with the 10 walks, so you know it’s not just a rotational problem, it’s it’s a staff problem. But.You know, when you look at the Guardians starting rotation and how they rank in different categories in the American League, they they have walked the more spatters in the American League and you’re not going to win that way, Joe. And you’re not going to get length out of your starters that way. And you’re going to burn the bull.In that way.
Joe Noga 12:13Yeah, the problem is is that in order to walk that many guys, you’ve got to throw that many more pitches, you know, during a start and it shortens your start. These guys are only going to be out there for 100 pitches no matter what. If they give up a few runs early. And we’ve seen that.Giving up, you know, big innings early and and sort of taking the team out of the game on occasion. Then we’ve seen Gavin Williams come back and, you know, lock it in and get them through 4. But then again, you’re only going 4 innings at that point. You’ve got to cover that much more with your bullpen late. And we’ve talked about how.This is putting stress on Cleveland’s relievers, and you know, we’ve seen sort of the the guys that have been reliable all year last year have have started to have have breakdowns at at points because you’ve got Cage Smith out there throwing 26 pitches in an outing when he normally would need 10 to get through.Through an inning, just unusual results when the starters walk as many guys as they have, and that’s starting to become a real concern.
Paul Hoynes 13:23No doubt about it, Joe. I mean in Williams’ last start against Toronto, he goes 4 innings and the reason he went four innings is he threw 100 pitches in four innings, including five walks the start. Before that, he goes two innings against the twins. He throws 61 pitches in two innings.Including to to walks. You know, that’s no matter how. It’s just, you know, that’s just not throwing the ball in the strike zone. That’s not having confidence in your stuff. That’s not being aggressive in the strike zone and and throwing quality strikes it. It means you’re searching something is off with your mechanics and.It’s just it’s a recipe for just like we were talking about a tired bullpen and a rotation that you’re going to have to start shuttling people in and out of that to see if you can get some length from somebody.
Joe Noga 14:18How much of of a concern is it that you know is is health an issue on this for for any of these starters, do we? Do we think these guys are are trying to pitch through some some health issues? It’s still early enough in the season where you know you might be able to shut down.A guy who’s got some shoulder fatigue or something like that and not worry about it. It’s not like it’s, you know, August or September where everybody’s hurting and everybody’s sore at that point and you’ve just got to push through this. They’re still at the point in the season where if somebody needs a break or a rest, you know they.And kind of do something about it.
Paul Hoynes 15:00Yeah. You never say never because you really don’t know. Only the manager and the coaching staff know. And the pitcher himself. I mean, if he’s pitching hurt like it seemed like Class A had was pitched with the sore shoulder for a while, kept it to himself and finally said something. And you know, they were able to shut him down and kind of.Handle him and rest him up without putting them on the il. But you know it’s different with the starter, so you know, I would hope. I would hope they’re all healthy. I would hope if and I would hope if they are hurting, they have the good sense to, you know, raise their hand and tell a trainer and you know take.You know, step to the side for a while.
Joe Noga 15:41I don’t know. At 49 years old, I sleep funny on my shoulder once and I’m I’m feeling it for a week. So these guys got to have a a better response coming back than I do. They’re professional athletes with the, you know, elite training options as, as as they they have them moving forward.
Paul Hoynes 15:49Mhm.
Joe Noga 16:00All right, hoinsey, let’s look at the the upcoming series against the Phillies. There’s there’s a potential for a lot of runs to be scored this weekend at Progressive Field. The Guardians are coming off a stretch where they scored eight runs in in a game for three consecutive games, the first time since 2020.The Phillies come in with Kyle Schwarber just pounding the the heck out of the ball and you know, a lineup that includes Bryce Harper and Nick Castellanos, and you know, an old friend from.The AL Central and Max Kepler just could there be a lot of fireworks at the ballpark this weekend?
Paul Hoynes 16:46Yeah, both teams are playing well, Joe, as you know. You know, Cleveland’s coming off a four and two road trip. They’re 14 and eight in their last 22. The the Phillies have the exact same record as Cleveland 22 and 15. They’re 1 2, Game 1, 1, 2 games out in the end.In the NL E They’ve won eight of their last 10. They’re on a three-game three-game winning streak and they have Kyle Schwarber, a guy that has really haunted Cleveland since the 2016 World Series.He’s hitting 263 with 12 home runs, 28 RBIs Bryce Harper, 6 homers, 20 RBIs Max, Kepler, who who loves to hit a Progressive Field, even with Trevor Bauer gone, and he’s hitting 246 with five homers and 12 RBIs.
Joe Noga 17:36Yeah.
Paul Hoynes 17:41And Nick Castellanos, an old friend from his days with the Tigers, is coming back to Cleveland as well. So you know, this is a lineup that that can bang the ball around and it it’s and you, like you said, Joe, they’re catching Cleveland at a hot time with their offense too.
Joe Noga 17:58What did uh, what did Schwarber hit against Cleveland last year? What 5545? Something like that.
Paul Hoynes 18:02Yeah, 545 with three home runs and six RBIs in a three-game series at in Phillies. So you know he he hasn’t forgotten. He still likes Cleveland pitching.
Joe Noga 18:16Yeah. And that was when he was batting lead off for them. Now he I I think they’ve moved him down in the order a little bit. And you know, this is a guy who I think in the last what, you know, 5, 6 years nobody in the only person in baseball with more home runs than than Kyle Schwarber.
Paul Hoynes 18:22Just.
Joe Noga 18:36You know, there’s a certain stretch is Aaron Judge. He’s he’s hitting, he’s hitting home, runs at a, you know, an alarming clip if you’re the the opposition. And he’s also taking his bases. He’s getting on base he he’ll his approach to at bats is really good and it just makes him.A tough out it makes him a guy who you need to circle in that lineup and he’s not the only one you’ve got Bryce Harper, who can hurt you at any time. So just this is going to be a series where the guardians, you know, staff is going to have to be on high alert, you know, for.The majority of the guys I’m in that lineup just another sort of long lineup, a lengthy lineup that you need to to be focused at because any mistake and and it could be an 8 run inning.
Paul Hoynes 19:28Yeah. So it’s really going to be interesting to see how this the Cleveland’s rotation handles this lineup. Gavin Williams is going tonight. Tanner Bybee is going Saturday, and then they still have to make up their mind who they’re going to start Ben Lively or Luis Ortiz on Sunday.Against Zack Wheeler because both of them pitched on the same day on the doubleheader against the against the Nationals at Nationals Park earlier this week.
Joe Noga 19:48Yeah.Yeah, Tuesday was the the double header. So when that spot in the rotation comes up again on Sunday, they’ve got to make a decision. Who would you go with? Well, you know, would you go with Ortiz, who you know had, like, you like we said, you know, struggled with some walks in his last outing, but was OK lively, only lively.Was really clean through like 5 innings, but you know he only threw 60 some pitches before he got pulled out of the game.
Paul Hoynes 20:26Yeah, I like lively. The way he’s pitched recently. He doesn’t walk that many people, but lively, you know, has has that a kind of a bad habit of giving up a home run at the wrong time? And this. And the Phillies are certainly a team that can hit the ball out of the park. But, but lively may.Kind of juiced up because the Phillies are one of his former teams. I’m sure he’d love to go out there and pitch well. Ortiz has the better stuff. Tough choice, but if it’s up to me, I’m going with lively Joe.
Joe Noga 21:00Yeah, something you just said sort of, you know, made the decision for me. I would pick Ortiz just because you’ve got a chance. If he catches fire, if he, if he finds it and and you know, sort of has it that day, he could almost be unhittable against a a lineup that.You kind of need to overpower if you want to get through them on a consistent basis. All right, Hoynes. That’s going to take care of today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. We will be back on Monday to wrap up the weekend and preview the series against the Milwaukee Brewers who are coming.Town, we will check in with you then.
Paul Hoynes 21:41Good deal, Joe.