CLEVELAND, Ohio — As former Cleveland ace Shane Bieber prepares to take the mound for the Toronto Blue Jays in a critical playoff game against the New York Yankees, cleveland.com beat reporters Joe Noga and Paul Hoynes engaged in a spirited debate on the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast about whether the Guardians should regret trading their former Cy Young winner.

The question came pointedly from Hoynes: “Do you think the Guardians have any regret about trading him?”

It’s a question that naturally emerges as Bieber — once the cornerstone of Cleveland’s rotation — now finds himself pitching crucial October innings for another franchise while his former team sits at home after a first-round playoff exit.

Noga, however, pushed back on the notion that keeping Bieber would have fundamentally altered Cleveland’s 2025 season trajectory.

“I don’t know if it would. Would you have thrown Bieber in what, game three, instead of Slade Cecconi?” Noga questioned. “Because I don’t think he would have changed the rotation all that much. And who knows what the chemistry would have been like in that starting rotation. You might not have been talking about a 15 1/2 game comeback.”

That 15 1.2-game comeback stands as the most remarkable in MLB history — a feat that occurred with the existing rotation personnel and chemistry. Noga suggested that disrupting that chemistry by keeping Bieber might have altered the season’s narrative entirely.

The debate touches on a central question all baseball front offices face: When do you cash in a valuable but departing asset? For Cleveland, the calculus was straightforward.

“The question became, could you get something in return in a trade? A return that’s more valuable than whatever draft pick compensation you were going to get for Bieber when he left as a free agent,” Noga explained. “Apparently the Guardians valued Khal Stephen more than anybody they could potentially get with a draft pick.”

Hoynes agreed with the fundamental logic behind the trade, acknowledging the business reality that faced Cleveland’s front office.

“I think it makes sense,” Hoynes said. “They knew if he did what he did with Toronto, which is have 5-6 decent starts, he wouldn’t have come back here.”

The timing of the debate is particularly poignant as Bieber prepares to face the Yankees in the postseason — an opponent that hasn’t always brought out his best. As Hoynes pointed out, “When he had to face the Yankees in the wild card, he got knocked around a little bit,” referring to Bieber’s struggles against New York in the 2020 and 2022 playoffs.

While the debate will likely continue as Bieber’s postseason performance unfolds, both reporters seemed to reach a similar conclusion: the trade made sense given Cleveland’s circumstances, and the team’s remarkable success without him largely validates the decision.

“Starting pitching wasn’t their problem,” Hoynes concluded simply, underlining perhaps the strongest argument that Cleveland made the right call in moving on from their former ace.

Podcast transcript

Joe Noga: Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I’m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. The National League Division Series took center stage on Monday night. Two games for the NL series. Los Angeles goes up 2 nothing on the Phillies with a 43 win there. And the brewers take a 2 nothing series lead in, in their series against the Cubs. After a 73 win, the Phillies just can’t seem to get things going on offense. The Dodgers are pushing all the right buttons right now. What’d you see in that game?

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, the Dodgers scored all their runs in the one inning, Joe. I mean the sixth or seventh inning, the Phillies tried to come back. They had a man on second in the ninth thing couldn’t get him home. Yeah, just everything seems to be breaking the Dodgers way and you know, a very good Philadelphia team is, is on the verge of elimination.

Joe Noga: Yeah, a lot of, you know, those big innings, what, what we’ve seen, Philly sort of have not a lot of explosiveness really out of their, their offense so far in these first two games. Bryce Harper and Kyle Schwarber kind of being held in check. And yeah. One the, the series is going to shift back to LA now for, for two games. This could be over pretty quick.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, yeah. Ohtani. What. He had a, he really, what? He had an RBI single. Right. So he, you know, he would, he didn’t, at least he didn’t hit any 500 foot home runs. Yeah, the Dodgers and they just seem to roll out those pitch one after another. That bullpen is getting better. Yeah, they’re in a great, great position to wrap this thing up at home.

Joe Noga: Yeah, likewise the, the brewers really playing sort of the same style of ball that got them here, got them to the best record in baseball at this point. And you said you were impressed with the pitching last night.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah. Jacob Misarowski, Milwaukee’s reliever, that’s the first time I’ve really, you know, kind of zeroed in on him. And what an act that is. Like, he looks like he’s like 6:10. He’s throwing 144 miles an hour. He’s got arms that are like pipe cleaner skinny and he, he’s just, he’s just bringing it. It was like, you know, it looks like he’s got a little trouble, you know, throwing strikes. When he’s d, he’s kind of all over the place. But when he’s in the zone, I mean, there’s no chance, the hitters have no chance against this guy.

Joe Noga: Yeah. And in the, what was it, the third inning, Carson Kelly grounds out, and Jacob Misarowski fields the ball to the left of the mound and then just takes it himself, runs it all the way to the. To first base, steps on the bag and sort of dances off the field. Just athletic, interesting play. Just, you know, normally you would see a pitcher flip to the first baseman, and that’s at that instance, but his momentum was just carrying him towards the bag. He said that. He said afterwards that he was afraid that if he flipped the ball to Andrew Vaughn, he was going to eat it right over his head. So he took it himself. Not something you normally see, but again, just an athletic, sort of freakishly weird play. And, you know, moments like that you see all the time in the. In. In the postseason.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And, you know, they used, you know, the. Milwaukee used some power to put, you know, the. Beat the. To beat the Cubs. What Vaughn, I think hit a two, hit a home run, and then who’s the kid that brother plays for? Grand slam. I mean, the Dead Central, too. I mean, they look good, Joe. I mean, they’re up to nothing. And the Cubs don’t look like they’ve got an answer for these guys.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s two series that could be over quick and heading to the nlcs. So just a recap of the postseason action. Again, we look forward to tonight with. Especially the game in New York with the Toronto Blue Jays up to nothing. They send Shane Bieber to the mound, and that’s one that we’re keeping an eye on just because we’ve seen Shane Bieber be very good in the postseason. And, you know, he’s just got to do it against New York now and against Carlos Rodin, who’s, you know, a guy who we. We’ve also seen come up with big moments for the Yankees.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah. And, you know, Bieber, you know, when you look. Go back to 2020, Joe, when he had to face them, when he won the year he won the Cy Young, when he had to face the Yankees in the wild card, he got knocked around a little bit. And I think there was another playoff game at Yankee Stadium where he didn’t pitch that well, so we’ll have to see how he handles this situation. And Joe, do you think. Do you think the Guardians have any regret about trading him?

Joe Noga: You know, I. I don’t really think so based on, you know, the return that they got and, you know, what that’s going to mean for the future in terms of. Of Cal, Stefan, Steven. But, you know, I. I don’t know if it would. Would you have thrown Bieber in what, game three, instead of Slade Saccony. Because I don’t think he would have changed the, the rotation all that much. And, and who knows what the chemistry would have been like in that, in that starting rotation. You might not have been talking about a 15 and a half game comeback. I know Bieber would give you a really good chance. But again, that 15 and a half game comeback happened because all of the people were in the right spots at the right time and you can’t really move around those parts. So, yeah, I don’t know if they regret trading Bieber or not.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I think Joe, you know, I think it makes, you know, the reason they traded him obviously makes sense. They knew if he did what he did with Toronto, which is have five decent starts, six decent starts since, since the trade, he wouldn’t have come back here. So I, I, you know, I can’t blame them for, for doing what they did. And like you said, Joe, starting pitching wasn’t their problem.

Joe Noga: Right. Yeah. And the question became, could you get something in return in a trade? Return that’s more valuable than whatever draft pick compensation you were going to get for Bieber when he left as a free agent. And apparently the Guardians valued Cal Stephen more than anybody they could potentially get with a draft pick. And you know, that, that makes a lot of sense. It was almost like making Cal Stephen another draft pick. So, you know, it’s just one that you knew a little bit more about. Anyways, moving on from that, we do have some Guardians award news or potential award news to talk about. Jose Ramirez, yesterday, again, for the seventh time in his career, nominated or a finalist for the Hank Aaron Award in the American League. This is one of the most prestigious awards for an offensive player. You know, this is an award that Manny Ramirez was the first to win back in 1999 when they first instituted the award. You know, this year they, they sort of honored the memory of Hank Aaron’s 715th home run at the All Star Game with a spectacular drone show. This is an award that’s been won by just a, a laundry list of hall of Famers and just the, the guys. Every guy in my, you know, baseball card book has won this, won this award. You’re talking about Ken Griffey Jr. Barry Bonds, Mike Trout. This is a, you know, a prestigious award and it’s one that Jose Ramirez is, is likely never going to win just because of who Jose Ramirez is and what Jose Ramirez is. He, he qualifies for the award as one of the best offensive players in the league. But he’s always going to be behind guys like, like Aaron Judge. He always seems to be blocked by guys like Aaron Judge when it comes down to it. I think this year Judge and Raleigh are going to be the top two choices in the American League for this award. But Jose Ramirez, because of sort of the way he plays the game in three facets, not just, you know, slugging and batting average and hitting home runs and driving in runs, he does all that too. But it’s, I don’t think it’s ever going to be enough to impress the voters to make him the, the Hank Aaron award winner.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, Joe, I mean the one thing Jose doesn’t do, he doesn’t hit 50 home runs a year. You know, like, like Raleigh and, and Judge did this year while Raleigh hit 60. So you know, I think he doesn’t, he doesn’t put those eye popping stats out there. But you know, who knows Joe, One year if he, well he’s probably, you know, if he could have hit what if he did 40, 40 this year? You know, that would be hard to ignore even with Judge and Raleigh. But I still don’t think he would have won it. You know, it’s, his game is, you know, a combination like you said, speed, power and defense.

Joe Noga: Past winners of the award, Judge won it last year. Ohtani won the American League side of it in 2023 before winning it in, in 2024. A judge won it in 2022. Vlad Guerrero in 21. Jose Abreu the year that he edged out Jose Ramirez for the MVP award. Brayu won it in 2020. Mike Trout in 2019. You know, you talk about some of the past winners of the award. Albert pujols, Ken Griffey Jr. Chipper Jones. You know, there are so many guys who are going to be on that. David Ortiz, guys who are going to be Derek Jeter on that voting panel to, to consider you think about a guy like a carrying junior or a Derek Jeter, you know. Yeah, they’re, they’re known for, for their hitting. But those are also guys who, who played both sides of the ball and ran the base as well. You know, you would think that, that Jose would, would get a little consideration from guys like that. He’s up against finalists for the award. Byron Buxton, Riley Green, Vlaguerro junior Aaron Judge, Junior Caminero from the Tampa Bay Rays, Nick Kurtz, the rookie from the Athletics, Cal Raleigh, George Springer and Bobby Witt. These are all guys who are finalists on the American League side and, and really Considered to be nominated with that group of hitters really tells you what the MLB.com nominating panel really thinks of Jose Ramirez and where they put him among the game’s very best players.

Paul Hoynes: No doubt about it, this guy is on the path to Cooperstown, Joe. And he keeps churning out one season after another that are very similar in their, in a high degree of production in a lot of different categories. You know, just, he really, really a productive guy and I think he, he puts the team first too. I don’t think that probably filters into those that vote. But you’re right, like guys like Jeter should, should appreciate a guy like this. Maybe he’ll get, you know, who knows, one day he might win this award. Joe, I remember Manny Ramirez won the first award, right? The first Hank Aaron. I remember, I think they awarded it during the World Series at that point and we were in New York or something. I remember Manny, you know, getting nominated or he was a finalist and there was another guy that got the finalists and he gave this eloquent speech and you know, saying how honored he was. And it went on for about two or three or four minutes and then they turned it turned over to Manny and he goes, yeah, what he said. But Manny wanted, I mean, just a great hitter, but he’s, he’s the kind of hitter that, that wins this award, Joe, because he hits a lot of home runs, he drives in a lot of runs. So. But I, you know, I, I would hope Jose would win this one before his career is over.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s sort of one of those ones where you’re always going to be blocked sort of by a guy like judge in front of you or somebody even like the way hosie’s always chasing a gold glove, there’s always, you know, just somebody who’s maybe, you know, just a little bit better in terms of, you know, the, that one focus area of his game and if Jose focused on that one area that, you know, maybe he might win it. But you know, he has such an all around complete game that it’s, it’s probably, I don’t know if it’s ever going to happen this year.283 batting average, 30 home runs, 85 RBI, 103 runs scored, and an.863 OPS in 158 games. For Ramirez, you’re talking about a guy who was ranked among the top 15 in the American League in OPS +137 and just a leader in the top 10 in total bases and basically led Cleveland in every major Category of on offense. So we’ll keep an eye on the Hank Aaron Award and, and the finalists there and, and we’ll, we’ll come back. Paul, I’ve, I’ve got some, some interesting end of the regular season facts. We didn’t get to them before the playoff push, but once the regular season ended there were some, some interesting numbers that were put out there that we sort of gleaned from the Internet. And, and you know, some things I want to go over. Hosey’s on this list for one, just outstanding sort of mind blowing fact. But let’s go through these one by one and you give me your opinion on some of these guys and their accomplishments from the 2025 regular season. Starting with Rafael Devers, a guy who, you know, we all know the story about how he got out of Boston this year. He was traded mid season from the Red Sox to the, the Giants are sort of a big story because of his, his contract that he had signed in Boston. Rafael Devers actually played in 163 games this year. And if you’re wondering how that’s possible, he had played in all the games possible with the, with the Red Sox up until the point of his trade and then he played with all the games for the Giants after his trade on June 15th. And that added up to 163. Kind of a weird instance to play. 106. Normally you don’t see guys playing 163 games unless there’s a, a one game playoff which they don’t have anymore.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I’m still trying to wrap my head around that, Joe. 163 games without the postseason game, the playoff game. But you know, the Guardians were out there in San Francisco when Des was traded and he played his first games as a Giant against Cleveland. But really that’s a strange stat, man. I mean especially for a guy that didn’t want to play.

Joe Noga: Right, exactly.

Paul Hoynes: That’s ironic.

Joe Noga: My question is, do you get paid any differently for playing an extra game? Because you know, I know that in the, in the NFL for, for instance you get paid per game you play. You get checks like per game. I don’t know what the pay situation is, but if you played one extra game and it’s not a playoff game, do you get paid more or is there an adjustment to your contract or is that just, you know, hey, I’ll give you one.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I think, I don’t know. The, the, the major league season is based on what, 183 days and, and it’s, I Think that you paid based on 172 days. So I don’t, you know, I don’t know how that figures in there, but for a guy that, you know, refused to play third base when they moved him, what, they made him a ta? Maybe. Yeah, maybe that’s just, you know, the baseball gods tell. Tapping Devers on the shoulder.

Joe Noga: Yeah, probably. Lawrence Butler, the outstanding outfielder for the speedy outfielder for the Athletics. The only qualified player in the American League that was not hit by a pitch. He played in 152 games and he’s the only one who didn’t get hit by a pitch this season.

Paul Hoynes: So that means he’s fast in the box too, Joe. Yeah, I mean he’s, he is, he’s darting both, he’s, he can move, you know, so that, that’s safety first, I guess. And maybe nobody wanted to hit him anyways, but I, I don’t know. That’s, that’ quite an accomplishment.

Joe Noga: Well, I can think of one, I can think of one hitter who would like to transfer one of his hit by pitches to, to Lawrence Butler. And actually what it didn’t, didn’t count as a hit by pitch. And that would be David Fry. But Fry looks like he’s doing okay. And from what we saw at the, at the end of the year, he looked, you know, the bandages were off by the time we were done in the clubhouse at the end of the season. So, you know, good for David Fry there. Aaron Judge, more intentional walks. He had 36 intentional walks. Then Michael A. Harris had total walks for the season. 16. So Aaron, Aaron Judge, one of the, the most frequently walked hitters in the league, obviously. But, but for Michael Harris to only have drawn 16 walks, that’s, you know, statement there. That almost double for Aaron Judge.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I think Michael Harris has to work on his strike zone discipline a little bit. That’s a free swinger right there. If you, if you’ only walking 16 times. I don’t know how many at bats he had, but you know, that’s, that’s, you’ve got to be a little more productive than that.

Joe Noga: Well, speaking of free swingers and guys who control the strike zone, Stephen Kwan almost 1500 pitches. He saw 1,481 pitches in the strike zone this year. Quan only swung and missed at those pitches 34 times. You tell that that’s elite strike zone discipline and back control. If you’re talking about 1500 pitches, he saw and only swung and missed 34 times at those pitches.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I mean, what great eye hand coordination, Joe We’ve seen that from Quan so many times. And Joe, I wonder if it’s going to get better with the abs coming in next year.

Joe Noga: Yeah, I think Stephen Kwan is going to be the poster child for abs. You know, for years he’s come in as, as the, the left handed batter in the American League. The, the top left handed batter in the American League who was victimized by calls that were made outside of that strike zone. So now I would think Stephen Vogt is going to send him to the plate with sort of carte blanche to, you know, tap the helmet anytime he wants to.

Paul Hoynes: Sure. For sure.

Joe Noga: Speaking of another guy with carte blanche in that regard, Lisa Rise. Sort of. When you talk about Stephen Kwan and his plate discipline, it always seems to go hand in hand with what Luis or he struck out just 21 times on the season. In 675 plate appearances. That’s the fewest strikeouts in a single season since Tony Gwynn struck out 18 times in 1998. That’s just remarkable.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, that’s, that’s like old school. That’s like the dead ball era. You know, I mean that is, that’s remarkable. You know, and I was looking at, at Quan’s strikeout to a walk ratio, Joe, and he, you know, he is at, he’s at 60 strikeouts, 55 walks. Oh, well, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s darn good too. So. But yeah, 21 strikeouts, that, that’s amazing.

Joe Noga: Yeah, I think, you know, a fully healthy season from Quan and you might see that number, you know, sort of flip flop and he would have more walks and strikeouts. Something he could have done maybe a little bit more was, was draw, draw walks this year. But you know, he can’t complain. Nick Castellanos, the only player with at least 120 games played in Major League baseball who did not commit an error on defense. I don’t know if that’s, you know, you know, kudos to, to Nick Castellanos or just, you know, he was a guy who didn’t have a, you know, particularly a high amount of range to, to get the balls. But you know, you don’t really necessarily think Castellanos as a, a top flight defender. No.

Paul Hoynes: When he played in Detroit, defense was a knock on him. I remember he was, he was a terrible outfielder. But you know, so that’s a two edged sword like you said, you know, that’s a, is it a lack of range or is he, has he gotten that much better? Because defense was never his forte when he was younger, you know, in the early part of his career.

Joe Noga: So here’s the number that, that really sort of blew my mind when I was coming across these. It’s Jose Ramirez and his situational hitting. With an.02 count, with a two strike count, Jose Ramirez had a.318 batting average and a 916 OPS this season. On, on 02 counts, the major league average with an.02 count was 1.55. Hosey had a.318 batting average and the major league average was.155. He was almost like, and we saw him do it a couple of times, baiting pitchers into throwing him the pitches that he wanted by swinging like a madman at some and sometimes putting himself in an O2 hole. There were, there are times when he’s gone up to the plate and you see him swing over the top of a pitch just so that he can get to the fastball or get to, you know, a slider, knowing that a pitcher is going to try and put him away with a certain pitch. But a.318 average in oh two counts is kind of just out of this world.

Paul Hoynes: That is amazing what a stat that is. I mean, dude, if you’re 02, you’re done. You know, most, with most hitters, even good hitters, you know, you’re, you’re cooked. And Jose hits.318 in that, in that.

Joe Noga: Situation and a 916 OPS, which means he’s not only getting his pitch and hitting it, he’s usually in that situation driving it for extra bases.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, you know, you, you. I remember what A.J. hinch said, you know, during the ALDS, he goes, you know, it almost seems like whenever Ramirez comes up, he’s doing damage. There’s somebody on base. He’s like the automatic. What, what, what was the golden, the golden hitter rule. Remember that? It was by. It was almost like he was saying you get to insert Ramirez whenever there’s a big situation. And, you know, this is one of the reasons why, Joe, I mean, that is an incredible stat.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s not something you see a lot of. So, you know, we’ll have to dig down and, and dive a little deeper into that number with Jose around this offseason, Josh Naylor, and we saw this when he was in Cleveland, but Josh Naylor had 30 steals this year despite having the second slowest sprint speed in all of Major League Baseball. His foot speed was 24.4. Only Blue Jays catcher Alejandro Kirk was slower. And yet Josh Naylor has 30 bags. I think he was only thrown out six times total all year. And he’s doing this on a mechanical foot. You know, he’s got plates and screws in his ankle after the, the injury that, you know, wiped him out in, in what, 20, 21. Just remarkable that Josh Naylor. Is it, is it because pitchers just forget about him, or is it because, you know, he picks the right time to go?

Paul Hoynes: I think he’s just stubborn, Joe. I think he’s trying to prove a point. You know, I remember back in a couple when Terry Francona was still managing here, Naylor tried to steal in. In spring training. He called Naylor in the office and goes, you’re slow. You cannot steal bases. And he said Mike Sarbaugh was sitting in the room and behind Naylor and kind of laughing a little bit. He goes, you cannot steal bases. And, you know, but that never registered with, with Josh. I think he’s just trying to prove people wrong.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s. Stubborn would be a good way to describe him. And I think, yeah, it’s maybe a goal that he set for himself or at least one that sort of materialized during the season. Hey, I could get to 30 bags. And he did so just outstanding. Byron Buxton did not ground into a double play all year. He’s the only qualified player this season, a qualified hitter this season to do that, and only the ninth player in major league history with at least 500 plate appearances to avoid hitting into a double play for the entire year. Given Byron Buxton’s natural speed, I, I think it’s a. It’s kind of easier to see how that would happen. But still, to be able to go out there and navigate it for, you know, 500 at bats and not ground into a double play, that’s an accomplishment.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah. I’m just glad he got to stay on the field for a change, Joe, this season. I mean, it’s what I know he had to go on the IL a couple times, but at least he played a full season. And Buxton could always run. And it still looks like he can run. You know, kudos to him just for having, you know, being. Being able to stay on it on the seat, on the, on the field that long and, you know, still, you know, maintaining his speed. And I think he. He hit over 30 home runs, too, Joe, so he had a. He had a good year for the Twins.

Joe Noga: Yeah, it’s, you know, the, the game is better when its best players are healthy and on the field. And that, that certainly the case with Buxton. Finally, Cal Raleigh, we talked about him. Cal Raleigh and Dylan Dingler, the the fine young catcher from Detroit who is a Massillon Ohio N State alum. The only two catchers in the majors who did not allow a pass ball all season. So it should be interesting because Cal Raleigh’s won the Platinum Glove before. But we’ll see who wins the the Gold Glove in the American League. At catcher could be Cal Raleigh and Dylan Dingler, both very highly rated. We saw Dylan Dingler’s arm on full display in the in the wild card series. He threw out Jose Ramirez in. In game three. This is a kid who you can expect a lot of good things from in the future.

Paul Hoynes: Yeah, just think about that, Joe. Just think about the velocity pitchers throw now and the variety of pitches they throw and all the every, you know, pitch in the dirt. To not allow a pass ball all season is incredible, especially when catchers are now everybody, everybody sets up on one knee. They don’t move as well behind the plate as they used to. That’s saying something. It reminds me of. I think Roberto Perez had a streak like this when he won two Gold Gloves for Cleveland.

Joe Noga: Yeah, Perez actually in his. Was it maybe the 2018 season? 2018 or 2019 season, he went the entire year and did not allow a pass ball as well. That’s the definition of being a wall back there. All right. Holy see. Speaking of being a wall, we’ve run into ours. It’s going to do it. For today’s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk podcast, we’ve got the Guardians postmortem today with Chris Antonetti and Mike Chernoff and Stephen Vogt. So we’ll talk to them and we’ll tell everybody about what they had to say on tomorrow’s edition.

Paul Hoynes: All right, Joe.

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