CLEVELAND, Ohio \u2014 A historic arbitration case is unfolding in Arizona that could fundamentally reshape how Major League Baseball compensates its young stars, as Detroit Tigers ace Tarik Skubal and agent Scott Boras are challenging the very foundations of baseball\u2019s salary structure.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n
In the latest episode of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast, host Joe Noga and cleveland.com Guardians beat reporter Paul Hoynes unpacked the unprecedented stakes of this landmark hearing.<\/p>\n
\u201cThis is a precedent setting arbitration hearing,\u201d Hoynes explained. \u201cThe $13 million gap is the biggest in arbitration history between the offers from the Tigers and the ask from Skubal and Boras.\u201d<\/p>\n
That gap is staggering: Skubal filed for $32 million while the Tigers countered with $19 million. The $13 million difference represents the largest disparity ever in baseball\u2019s arbitration history, and Skubal\u2019s request would shatter the previous record for a pitcher.<\/p>\n
What makes this case so significant isn\u2019t just the numbers but the strategy behind them. Boras and Skubal are essentially attempting to use the arbitration system to secure compensation more in line with free-agent market value rather than traditional arbitration standards.<\/p>\n
\u201cHe\u2019s saying, put me among those guys, among the top line starting pitchers right now,\u201d Noga explained on the podcast. \u201cEven though I\u2019m still in the arbitration process based on what I\u2019ve done the last two years, you should be paying me something close to what I could be getting on the open market. And this really just is an attempt to blow up the whole arbitration system.\u201d<\/p>\n
The comparisons Skubal\u2019s team is likely to make include free-agent aces who recently signed massive contracts, including Blake Snell at $36.4 million, Jacob deGrom at $37 million, Zack Wheeler at $42 million, and Justin Verlander at $43.3 million per season.<\/p>\n
This puts the Tigers in an extraordinarily difficult position. As a \u201cfile and trial\u201d team \u2013 meaning they typically proceed to a hearing once numbers are exchanged \u2013 they must now argue against their own ace\u2019s value before arbitrators.<\/p>\n
\u201cHow do you go in there and say anything negative about Tarik Skubal over the last two seasons?\u201d Hoynes questioned. \u201cHow do you convince the arbitrators that he is not worth what he\u2019s asking for? I mean, the ball club is really on the hot seat.\u201d<\/p>\n
The Tigers aren\u2019t just representing their own interests. Their position effectively defends MLB\u2019s entire arbitration structure, which traditionally compensates players at rates well below market value during their first six years of service time.<\/p>\n
\u201cThe Tigers are sort of acting on behalf of all of Major League Baseball and the owners and saying, \u2018No, the system says we only have to pay you this much,\u2019\u201d Noga noted.<\/p>\n
If Skubal prevails, it would create a new precedent that might be used during the upcoming collective bargaining process to create a path for other young stars to seek compensation closer to their true market value years before reaching free agency. <\/p>\n
The ripple effects could transform how teams approach roster construction and player development.<\/p>\n
\u201cIt\u2019s a test case, definitely,\u201d Hoynes concluded. \u201cIt\u2019s going to be interesting to see how this plays out.\u201d<\/p>\n
For baseball fans, this case represents a fascinating collision of player empowerment, market economics, and baseball\u2019s traditional compensation structures. The decision could either reinforce the status quo or dramatically accelerate the financial trajectory for young stars across the sport.<\/p>\n
Want more insights on this landmark case and its implications? Listen to the full discussion on the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast with Joe Noga and Paul Hoynes for expert analysis on this potential watershed moment in baseball economics.<\/p>\n
Read the automated transcript of today\u2019s podcast below. Because it\u2019s an AI-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.<\/p>\n
Podcast Transcript<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Welcome back to the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. I\u2019m Joe Noga, joined by Paul Hoynes. Hoynsie, I\u2019m curious, what\u2019s your favorite Van Halen song?<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Hot for Teacher.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Hot for Teacher. That\u2019s a pretty good one. I\u2019m thinking Logan Allen\u2019s favorite Van Halen song is Panama because that\u2019s what he\u2019s going to be singing. We found out Logan Allen, the left handed starting pitcher for the Guardians, is going to be pitching on the Panamanian roster for the World Baseball Classic. So he won\u2019t be, he\u2019ll be missing a couple of weeks of camp and he\u2019s in the rotation. The full roster reveals are coming up for, for these teams that are in the WBC. But how, how stunned were you to, to learn that Logan Allen will be a starting pitcher for Panama?<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: I am surprised, Joe. I did not know he had Panamanian ancestry. And good for, good for Logan. You know, I think what this opportunity that comes along every three years. So, you know, you should, you should take advantage of it if you can and it\u2019s going to be interesting to see how he does.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah. Right now, Logan Allen joining a rotation that includes Ariel Jurado, Humberto Mejia, Jaime Beria and a couple of guys in the bullpen, including James Gonzalez from the Oakland Athletics. So, yeah, the, the four rosters haven\u2019t been revealed, but those are coming out shortly. Does this help or hurt Logan Allen\u2019s chances of making the rotation for the Guardians just based on his avail?<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: You know, that\u2019s, that\u2019s a great question. You know, I don\u2019t think it would hurt him if, if he thought it would. You know, I think he\u2019d, he\u2019d stay in camp. You know, this is what, their third, his third year under Vogt. You know, Stephen Vogt knows him. He, you know, he pitched really well last season. You know, set career highs and starts, innings, pitch, strikeouts. The guy made 30 appearances, 29 starts. I think he, he really kind of posted for them. He showed up and posted. He got skipped a couple times at the end of the season when they were going down the stretch. I know he wasn\u2019t too happy about that, but I think that just kind of fueled him. We\u2019ll see. You know, I think if there was anything in his mind that he might, that this might hurt him or hurt his chances of making a rotation on opening day, I think he\u2019d stay in camp.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah. Right now, as we were talking through some of the roster, you know, machinations yesterday, it looks like there\u2019s three guys for two spots in the rotation right now, if you\u2019re assuming that Gavin Williams, Tanner Bibee, Slade Cecconi have the first three spots in the rotation spoken for, that leaves Joey Cantillo, Logan Allen and Parker Messick as, as the guys who are competing for those final two spots. So, so three arms for, for two spots and like you said, Logan Allen got to take advantage of every opportunity, but also, you know, don\u2019t want to be sort of off the radar of, of the coaching staff. Whereas if you\u2019re in camp that whole time, they\u2019re seeing what you\u2019re doing. But again, he\u2019s the guy that they\u2019re most familiar with, you know, Cantillo and Messick having, you know, a lot less a major league experience under their belts. So maybe he\u2019s already got the inside track on one of those two spots and this is an opportunity for him to go out and sort of make a name for himself on a bigger stage. That remains to be seen. Of the players that are so far, definitely 100% confirmed, and there could be names added to this list or taken at different times throughout the WBC, but from the guardians perspective of who\u2019s going and who\u2019s not, obviously Travis Bazzana for Australia, Bo Naylor for Canada. But you\u2019ve also got Diane Frias, who\u2019s confirmed to be on the Columbia roster and newly signed to a minor league contract. The guy with the, the magic pitch, the screwball pitcher from Italy, Ettore Giulianelli, he\u2019s confirmed out of the bullpen for Team Italy. And also Brad Goldberg, the assistant pitching coach. He will be with Team Israel during the tournament, so he\u2019ll be out of camp for a little bit as well. So that\u2019s, that\u2019s what we\u2019re looking at. Expect to see maybe a name or two added possibly in the bullpen to the Canadian roster. But the one that really stands out, the one that\u2019s sort of the big surprise is Jose Ramirez not on the confirmed list right now as far as a starter for the Dominican Republic team.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, the, you know, from word out of the, the Dominican Republic team that Jose was not going to play in the first, first round, but he could be available, he could be added to the roster if they advance. It\u2019s interesting when we talked to Jose at his press conference to announce his contract extension, you know, he, he really cut that question off, Joe. You asked it, and I don\u2019t know if he was upset or he just didn\u2019t want to talk about it, but, you know, it was really unlike Jose. He, he, you know, kind of just slammed the door on that question. So it appeared to me, you know, just from the outside looking in, he wasn\u2019t real happy about it.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah, I got the vibe. I got the feeling that, you know, sort of the, if I\u2019m not starting, I\u2019m not departing sort of a feeling it was that they had, they had chosen Manny Machado to be the starter in the first round of. Of play. And that sort of decision didn\u2019t sit well with Jose. So that\u2019s, that\u2019s sort of the vibe I got from his response, but obviously can\u2019t confirm that because he didn\u2019t, he didn\u2019t elaborate. He didn\u2019t go into detail on it. We, we will take it for what it was on its face there. So, yeah, the, the WBC, obviously that\u2019s going to start ramping up right from the beginning of camp and some players are reporting early because of it. And that changes things. That changes the look and the feel of camp because really, in general, the guardians have most of their position players and coaches and everybody. They usually show up a little bit before they\u2019re supposed to. I mean, most of the guys, you know are there already working out or live in the area or are around. So the report date becomes less of a big event. Like, you know, it\u2019s not like the opening scene of Major league where, you know, it\u2019s the first time you\u2019re seeing these guys as they\u2019re all rolling in off their motorcycles and stuff.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: That.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: That\u2019s just not the case.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: It\u2019s for bats. No. Yeah, yeah, definitely, Joe. I mean, they\u2019ve got dates set up that the guys that are participating in the WBC have to come in a couple days earlier than, you know, the reg guys. I think pitchers and catchers that aren\u2019t participating are. February 10th, next week. They, they. That\u2019s a report date. And the position players and pitchers for the WBC come in a couple days earlier. But you\u2019re, you\u2019re right, they\u2019re. Most of them are all out there already thing. It\u2019s interesting, Joe. I\u2019ve seen, I\u2019ve seen the WBC kind of unfold in spring training a couple times when Eric Wedge was manager. I think one of the first ones. First WBCs. I thought it was a distraction to that ball club. They never got that whole team together until it seemed like to the end of camp. And it really hurt them under Terry Francona. I don\u2019t think they handled it a little better. You know, they. They seemed to roll right through that. It wasn\u2019t a distraction. So I\u2019ve seen it Work, you know, pro and con. But the overriding fear is that you, as a GM or a manager or even as the owner of the team, you\u2019re lending your players to another entity during a time of the, of the preseason when these guys are vulnerable, they\u2019re not in shape or they\u2019re not in game shape, I should say, they\u2019re not really ready. And you\u2019re putting them in a competitive environment where, you know, they, they get jacked up, they want to, you know, win for their country or, you know, and do well and they, they maybe overstress their body. So it\u2019s, I always thought it put the U.S. i mean the big league teams at a really, really severe disadvantage in the tournament, so to speak. So we\u2019ll see how, we\u2019ll see how it unfolds.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah, and you talked about, you know, the, the owners and the, the league sort of, sort of loaning their players out, I guess is a way of putting it. One of the things that we\u2019ve seen pop up here just recently and it\u2019s, you know, sort of a, maybe even bleeding into a political sort of thing is teams from Puerto Rico and Venezuela are running into problems getting insurance for their players to play in the tournament. Guys like Francisco Lindor and Edwin Diaz and you know, Carlos Correa, Jose Barrios, they\u2019re, they\u2019re being denied coverage in some cases either because they\u2019ve had off season surgeries or they have past injury histories. Obviously Diaz, very, very famous, celebrating a win for Puerto Rico. He tore his ACL and it, you know, it, you know, wound up costing him an entire season. Uh, Jose Altuve, uh, for Venezuela, was, uh, injured when he was hit by a pitch in 2023. You know, there are these, these little things that pop up and, you know, wondering why just the team from Puerto Rico and just the team from Venezuela are running into these difficulties getting insured. It doesn\u2019t seem that\u2019s, that\u2019s the case for the team USA or team Japan as, as things are shaking out, you\u2019re not seeing any of those players being denied the opportunity.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s, you know, the, the baseball federations that back the different countries. Maybe, maybe it\u2019s a matter of money. Maybe it\u2019s a matter of the ML MLB teams not willing to put up the, the insurance. I\u2019m not sure how works, but yeah, that\u2019s, that\u2019s a concern for sure. Hopefully they get it worked out because Venezuela and, and Puerto Rico, those are two great teams and they had really good showings in the last WBC.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah, and, and, and, and as far as the, the tournament goes, they want to see these, these top players who, who want to represent their countries. And you know, if, if insurance is the only thing that\u2019s, you know, standing as a roadblock to seeing guys like Lindor or Diaz or Correa in the, in the tournament. You, you know, you wonder why that, why that is. It\u2019s, it\u2019s kind of a disappointment if these guys aren\u2019t going to be able to participate, but I don\u2019t think that might be the case. So anyways, the WBC starting to ramp up. Not the only thing that\u2019s starting to ramp up. Also, arbitration trials are underway and are sort of taking the center stage right now as we\u2019re getting ready to get to spring training. The big one, sort of the granddaddy of the all time. The, the biggest arbitration hearing I think in terms of attention is going to be the Tarek Skubal trial or you know, hearing that\u2019s scheduled for today in Arizona. Skubal and The Tigers are $13 million apart on the number that they filed for. Skubal going for 32 million for his arbitration salary. The tigers offering 19. And if it goes to a decision, he\u2019s either going to get one or the other. There\u2019s no in between. Skubal, obviously a Scott Boris client and Boris, you know, trying to, you know, put it out there that maybe there\u2019s some wiggle room but it doesn\u2019t really get the, you don\u2019t get really get the sense that that\u2019s the case.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, this is a precedent setting arbitration hearing, Joe. It\u2019s scheduled for today. As you said, the $13 million gap is the biggest in arbitration history between the, you know, offers from the Tigers and the ask from Skubal and Boros and the Tigers are, have become a file and trial team. Meaning if you don\u2019t get a deal done when you, when the numbers are filed, we\u2019re going to a hearing. But Boros has kind of left the door open to maybe negotiate before they walk through the doors to the, to the three man arbitration hearing. But I think if, if they really wanted to hear if they really wanted a settlement, they probably could have come in with a little lower price tag than 32 million. Which, you know, that which is I think is the highest ask in the history of arbitration. What Soto got 31 million last year. Skubal\u2019s asking for 32 after winning two straight Cy Youngs, you know, and that\u2019s the highest by far. Ask for a pitcher, the highest, you know, Award, arbitration award for a pitcher was like 19.72 million.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: David Price.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, for David Price, you know, this is really kind of an. This is going to be an interesting thing right now. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re going to find out if they do go to arbitration. You know, we\u2019re not going to find out maybe for a couple days, but I don\u2019t know. This would be a great one to be a fly on the wall, Joe.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah, I mean, what Skubal was saying by asking for that 32 million was, you know, pay me close to what I would be making if I were free agent right now and for, for one year. Because, you know, there are guys out there, there are free agents out there, agent pitchers out there who are making more than $40 million for a year. Blake Snell at 36.4. Jacob deGrom, 37. Zach Wheeler, 42, Justin Verlander 43.3. You know, were contracts that were all signed recently. So, you know, he\u2019s saying, put me among those guys, among the top line starting pitchers right now. Even though I\u2019m, I\u2019m still in the arbitration process based on what I\u2019ve done the last two years, you should be paying me, you know, something close to what I could be getting on the open market. And this really just is an attempt to blow up the whole arbitration system.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Well, Joe, Tim, this is Scuba\u2019s fifth year. You know, he is allowed to, you know, make comparisons to himself and pitchers that are already, you know, out on the free agent market that have, you know, become free agents. Oh, yeah, that\u2019s exactly what he\u2019s doing, what you said, comparing himself to pitchers that are, that are making, you know, 30 million or over 30 million.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: And so Tigers, Tigers are trying to keep the status quo. They\u2019re trying to keep it in line with, you know, what the. They\u2019re still trying to make him a top, you know, arbitration pitcher with the $19 million offer, even though it was lower than the David Price Award. That was like more than a decade ago. So the Tigers are sort of acting on behalf of all of Major League Baseball and the owners and saying, you know, no, this. The system says we only have to pay you this much.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: You know, so it\u2019s, it\u2019s really, it\u2019s a test case. Definitely. It\u2019s going to be interesting to see how this to. Interesting to see how this plays out. And I mean, if you\u2019re the Tigers, how do you go in there and say anything negative about Derek Skubal over the last two seasons? How do you convince the iron arbitrators that he is not worth what he\u2019s asking for. I mean, just the ball club is in a really, they\u2019re on the hot seat. I mean, in the arbitration process, the player never loses anyways because you can never, you can\u2019t cut the guy more than 20%. And that almost never happens. So it, it, it\u2019s really the, the ball is in the, the Tigers, I mean, in, in Scuba\u2019s court here, they, they have it kind of got a stack deck.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: How do you, how do you make Tarek Skubal look bad? I guess you just play that, play that replay of him NFL center snapping the ball between his legs and over the head of the first baseman late in the season. You play that on a loop over and over again and say, look at how, look at how terrible he is at fielding his position. I guess you, you go out and you, you tell him, you know, he makes everybody else on the team look bad by being the only guy who can go out there and shut everybody down every five days. So yeah, I, I, I What, what would be your best argument if you\u2019re the, if you\u2019re the Tigers, to, to argue against Tarek school getting 32?<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Yeah, I just have to say I\u2019d go back to the salary, Joe. I wouldn\u2019t. I try to stay, I\u2019d started. I try to stay away from anything to do with Scuba\u2019s, you know, performance. And I, you know, kind of zero in on the salaries, the comparative salaries to other arbitration pitchers that are in, that have the same service time as Skubal. And you know, so guys that are still in the arbitration class, that\u2019s probably the only thing you could do. I mean, in, in my mind, because what are you going to do? You\u2019re going to rip this guy for not striking out 250 guys instead of what, over 220 guys a season. There\u2019s just, it\u2019s a losing proposition to, to attack his performance.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah, I guess. You know, the argument that Detroit\u2019s relievers don\u2019t get enough work on days that school pitches, I guess is the only thing you can say because he goes so deep into games or, you know, Detroit\u2019 getting high enough, high enough draft picks because they, they win too much when school\u2019s on the mound. Seriously, there\u2019s, there\u2019s so many really bad arguments that you could make if you\u2019re the Tigers and it could only backfire against you in the long run. So yeah, we, we have to keep our eye on obviously the big, the big case of the day, the big Trial of the day. And that\u2019s Tarek school. And we\u2019ll see if he comes out of here. I\u2019ve got to believe that, you know, all things being equal, he\u2019s gonna get the 32 million. And that\u2019s just going to change arbitration forever.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Or, or the Tigers kind of, you know, you know, take a step back and try to negotiate as they\u2019re going through the door. Maybe, you know, okay, what about 25 million?<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: You know, let\u2019s, let\u2019s try to keep our hands around our arms around this thing. Yeah.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: And if you\u2019re Skubal. And if you\u2019re, you\u2019re doing it for the greater good of, say, the players association, then the pitchers who go after you, you\u2019re, you\u2019re, you\u2019re denying and turning down every sort of caveat there\u2019s. And you\u2019re going, you want that decision. Because in my mind, it\u2019s either going to be a $32 million award or the Tigers settling closer to the 32 million. There\u2019s no way the arbitrators decide in favor of $19 million for the Tigers. It\u2019s just not going to happen. All right. Another, you know, bit of news that we saw pop up last night. Our old friend Carlos Santana, the respected and venerable veteran spent a good portion of last season with the Guardians before being released, joining the Cubs for the stretch run. Carlos Santana, one of the all time greats to ever put on a Cleveland uniform as a switch hitter, as a first baseman, and, you know, an all star. He signs a $2 million deal to join the Arizona Diamondbacks this season, so he\u2019ll play first base for the D backs. What\u2019d you think when you heard that Carlos Santana staying in the game for another year?<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Joe? I can\u2019t say I was surprised, but Evan watched, you know, as watched Carlos last season as you, you and I did. You know, I thought it looked to me like he was at the end of the line. It looked like to me, I mean, he was still playing a great first base. There\u2019s no argument there. Gold Glove defender. But he had lost. It looked like he had lost some pop on his, on his swing. I mean, we saw a lot of balls diet the track that, that would have been off the fence or over the fence in years past. So I thought maybe, maybe he was kind of at the end of the line. But lo and behold, he\u2019s playing in the WBC and now he\u2019s. He signed another deal, Joe. And you know, the one way or the other, it sounds like Arizona has to Pay him. So hopefully, you know, he has a little bit of a revival. He\u2019s going to play at 40, you know, this coming season and, you know, I\u2019m glad, I\u2019m glad he\u2019s, he\u2019s doing what he wants to do and, you know, and he won\u2019t do anything but help the Diamondbacks. He\u2019s, he\u2019s turned himself into a clubhouse leader, a guy that, you know, that sets a great example. His work ethic is second to none. Just really, really I\u2019m happy for him and I wish him success. Joe, I thought, you know, Jose Ramirez said last week when someone asked him who did he learn how to, how to play the game from when he was first breaking into the big leagues. And he named Santana and Mike Napoli. And I thought that was kind of the ultimate compliment.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah. And, and really that\u2019s. You heard that not just from Carlos Santana or from Jose Ramirez this past season, but Angel Martinez, the younger guys, especially the, the younger Latin players in the clubhouse, even when John Kenzie Noel was around, particularly the Dominican players, they really look up to and idolize Carlos Santana. The, the Diamondbacks have young up and coming infielder Geraldo Perdomo, who is a good friend of Jose Ramirez. I see a lot on Instagram and on the social media channels Perdomo and Ramirez hanging out a lot in the Dominican Republic. I wonder if, if Jose Ramirez had any influence or had any conversations with Perdomo about, you know, hey, my buddy Carlos is looking for a team. There\u2019s looking for an opportunity. And even so, even, even when Santana signed, you know, I\u2019m sure Jose Ramirez, his phone was, was blowing up, Perdomo saying, do what this guy does and follow him and listen to him, because he\u2019s the example. He\u2019s a guy who\u2019s all over the guardians all time lists, especially as a switch hitter. I think he\u2019s what he might be third or fourth in home runs all time for the club and, you know, a member of that 2016 team. My question is, is, is Carlos Santana do his numbers, you know, you talk about the high walk rate, you talk about the, the power numbers that, that he put up throughout his career. He\u2019s at, in terms of home runs, he\u2019s at 335 home runs over a 16 year career. Is, is he a guy who at some point could get a Cooperstown consideration, you know, hall of Fame consideration when, when he\u2019s done with his playing career?<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: I think so, Joe. I think he, he would definitely make the ballot. I don\u2019t know if he\u2019s a Hall of Famer, but his case would certainly, you know, deserve a closer, a pretty good dive by the writers. But I think he makes a ballot. He\u2019s, you know, the ballot is open to anybody that\u2019s played 10 years. And you look at his numbers, Joe, I mean, you forget how many home runs this guy hit yet. You know, over 300 home runs he had.227 with Cleveland. You know, all the switch hitting records in franchise history, most of them belong to Jose Ramirez. But in second place, it seems like Santana is right there as well. So, you know, he\u2019s a kind of underrated player, played all over the diamond. He came up as a catcher, moved to third base. You know, he played some outfield in the post season. Then he, you know, finally found a home at first base and really turned himself into, you know, an excellent first baseman. And, and Joe, you know, the guy I think that really helped him was Francona. When Terry, when Terry Francona took over the ball 2013, Carlos was not, he\u2019s not the guy he was. He is now. He, he was kind of a, a guy that stayed to himself, that concentrated on his own game. But in talking to Francona and guys like Napoli really turned him into a clubhouse guy, a clubhouse leader. And I think that\u2019s helped him, you know, keep his career going.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Yeah, I, I, I mean, Francona\u2019s influence and the closeness that they have and the fondness that they had for each other, I mean, just look to the, the little tradition of, of, of kissing his bald head, you know, before games, just those kinds of things. You could really tell that there was a, a mutual sort of love and admiration after, like you said, Frank Kona sort of lit that fire under him and they, he, he sort of changed or turned around his career. Yeah, we\u2019ve, we\u2019ve talked about this before. We\u2019ve talked about Cooperstown, you know, being sort of a far off dream for him and really hanging on for as long as he has might do more damage to that case than, than good. Unless he has some sort of big bounce back season at age 40, which is less likely, I, I guess. But the walk rate is always still there. The, like you said, the, the power numbers might be dying down. But you know, this is a guy who, if, if the writers take into account how badly the shift really killed his ability to, to hit from the, the left side of the plate for so long, his, his numbers would be so much better if the current shift rules were in place earlier in his career because he would just blister balls to the right side and have nothing to show for it because guys could play basically in short right field and cut him off. He was one of the guys who really benefited from, I think in a short sample, the, the shift rules coming in and changing things around in that way. We talked about the hall of Fame for him, but one thing is for, for certain is that he\u2019s definitely a Cleveland hall of Famer. The Guardians hall of Fame is something that will be calling for him at some point in the future.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Y. No doubt about it. He\u2019s been a great Cleveland player. He\u2019s done everything I think his managers have asked him to do, change positions. He\u2019s played well in the postseason, but he\u2019s just, you know, 11 years. He\u2019s played 16 years in the big leagues, Joe, 11 in Cleveland. And you know, this is his home. He\u2019s been here what, three times? Who knows, Joe, he might, he might end up coming down the stretch this year. Maybe they, they bring him back, who knows? But I think when he\u2019s done playing, there\u2019s a chance if he still wants to stay in baseball, that, that he could find a place in the baseball development program here.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: Certainly even with the, you know, something in the Dominican and the academy there fostering the young players, he\u2019s got a talent for that. He\u2019s fifth all time in home runs in franchise history with what, 2, 227. I think he\u2019s 11th with 762 RBIs. But as far as walks go, Jim Thome is the all time leader in walks with for Cleveland low. Santana number two on the list with 933 walks. So that\u2019s, that\u2019s pretty significant as far as, you know, what he could do. You know, the other side to that is Jim Thome is also number one on the Cleveland list for strikeouts with 1,400. And Santana is number two on that list as well with 10, 49 strikeouts in his careers. Again, this is a guy who, when, when all is said and done, it\u2019s, it\u2019s Cleveland across his chest from when you think of his career in, in the big leagues.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Sure, Joey. I mean, when you think about it as, as we\u2019ve talked about here, you know, probably one of the, you know, I don\u2019t know, at least top 100 players in, in franchise history. I would think you\u2019d have to put. Find a spot for Carlos, you know, in that ranking.<\/p>\n
Joe Noga: King. Yeah, for sure. All right, Hoynes, that\u2019s going to wrap up today\u2019s edition of the Cleveland Baseball Talk Podcast. We\u2019ll check back in with you again tomorrow.<\/p>\n
Paul Hoynes: Good deal.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"CLEVELAND, Ohio \u2014 A historic arbitration case is unfolding in Arizona that could fundamentally reshape how Major League…\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":560615,"comment_status":"","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2380],"tags":[5,135,51,3188,2565,30234,538,4],"class_list":{"0":"post-560614","1":"post","2":"type-post","3":"status-publish","4":"format-standard","5":"has-post-thumbnail","7":"category-cleveland-guardians","8":"tag-baseball","9":"tag-cleveland","10":"tag-cleveland-guardians","11":"tag-cleveland-guardians-2025","12":"tag-clevelandguardians","13":"tag-detroit-tigers-2025","14":"tag-guardians","15":"tag-mlb"},"share_on_mastodon":{"url":"https:\/\/channels.im\/@mlb\/116032855823468301","error":""},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/560614","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=560614"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/560614\/revisions"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/560615"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=560614"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=560614"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.rawchili.com\/mlb\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=560614"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}