CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ 138-113 victory over the Washington Wizards. The central theme is the dawn of a new era for the Cavs, establishing a “championship or bust” mentality.

Takeaways:

New Era, New Urgency

The acquisition of James Harden, Dennis Schröder, and Keon Ellis has accelerated the Cavaliers’ timeline, shifting the mentality to “championship or bust.” This sentiment is directly articulated by players, with Donovan Mitchell stating, “the time is now,” and Harden acknowledging he is there to pursue a championship. Harden’s home debut, marked by 13 points and 11 assists, demonstrated his value as a primary playmaker rather than just a scorer. The hosts interpret the trade as a clear signal from the front office that “it’s go time,” a move likely spurred by the desire to solidify Donovan Mitchell’s long-term commitment and maximize the team’s current window.

Jarrett Allen’s Dominant Resurgence

Center Jarrett Allen has experienced a significant surge in performance since Evan Mobley’s injury, averaging 22 points and 11 rebounds on nearly 71% effective field goal percentage. The hosts attribute his dominance to several factors, including increased offensive opportunities, better floor spacing, and an immediate, potent pick-and-roll chemistry with James Harden, who has a history of elevating big men. This breakout has forced a re-evaluation of Allen’s role, with Kenny Atkinson admitting the team had only run one specific play for Allen all season, suggesting he may have been previously underutilized and taken for granted within the offense.

The Challenge of Reintegrating Evan Mobley

Jarrett Allen’s success creates a complex strategic challenge for the team upon Evan Mobley’s return from injury. The hosts deliberate on how the coaching staff will balance minutes and offensive touches between the two big men, as Allen’s performance highlights the benefits of playing with four shooters and improved spacing. The team must figure out how to maintain Allen’s new-found offensive rhythm while also developing chemistry between James Harden and Evan Mobley. This “good problem” leaves Atkinson with significant homework to do over the All-Star break to optimize the frontcourt rotation for the playoffs.

Sam Merrill as a Critical Offensive Weapon

Sharpshooter Sam Merrill’s career-high 32-point game, in which he made nine 3-pointers, cemented his status as a vital offensive weapon for the Cavaliers. The hosts emphasized the “gravity” he commands on the court, stating he is a player who genuinely alters defensive schemes and creates a “nightmare” for opponents. When paired with elite creators like James Harden and Donovan Mitchell, Merrill’s dangerous shooting gives the offense a significantly higher ceiling. This trio creates a potent combination that the coaching staff will likely need to utilize in high-leverage situations, especially in the playoffs.

A Culture Shift and Questions About Darius Garland

The podcast suggests the recent trades signal a deliberate culture shift toward a more mature, win-now mindset, beyond just an upgrade in talent. The hosts connect this directly to the departure of Darius Garland, referencing reports of the organization’s frustration with his recovery habits and his “nonchalant” self-description. In contrast, the new players are highlighted for their “dog mentality” and singular focus on winning. This implies the trade was not only about on-court fit but also about instilling a greater sense of urgency and professional maturity that management felt was necessary to reach championship contention.

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Transcript

NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.

Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and we’re coming to you guys after the Cavs fifth straight win. 138, 113. A trouncing of the Washington Wizards as it should have been. But this game was more than just a trap game. As we discussed on yesterday’s podcast, it was the home debut for James Harden, Keon Ellis, Dennis Schröder and all of those guys came in and had positive minutes. Did James Harden go off for 20 points tonight? No, he did not. He had 13 points, was 1 of 4 from the field and was 10 of 12 from the free throw line. But the biggest portion of that, he added 11 assists to his ledger. Dennis Schröder had seven points, was 1 of 5 from the field, 4 of 4 from the free throw line, three rebounds, two assists and was being a pest defensively. Keon Ellis was a plus 17, the best play, plus minus off the bench. He had six points, 2 of 4 from the field, 1 of 3 from deep, four rebounds, three assists, one steal and one blocked. Jimmy, let’s start there. What was your impression of seeing these guys in Rocket Arena? The excitement, the mini bigs being handed out before the game, the for the land outside, the banner no longer being there across the street from Rocket Arena. All these things coming in and enveloping what tonight was.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, man, it’s, it’s a new era. James Harden and Donovan Mitchell’s Cavs. We’ll see about Evan Mobley. This is a two headed, two headed monster right now. And the thing that sticks out to me about this integration process, the line that sticks out to me from the last week is Donovan telling Chris the time is now. The timeline has been accelerated. James Harden said in his post game, like we all, we all know why I’m here. It’s championship. Chris has been saying finals bust. I think it’s championship or bust. This team’s not going to be. Obviously Finals would be a huge step for this team. But Donovan has been talking openly about how this could be James’s last chance. This, I think he means more this stop than this season. But this is, you know, the one thing that James hasn’t really accomplished in his career. Top 10 all time scorer, top 75 NBA players, a surefire hall of Famer. He’s one MVP, this, that and third. There are people maybe raised my hand here a little bit, don’t think he’s a winner because he hasn’t gotten to the Finals as the engine or co engine of the team as it hasn’t been since he was super young and OKC and he was awesome for that team, don’t get me wrong. But this is the last thing that he needs to check off on his career achievement list. And you can, I mean, it’s the Wizards. So it’s hard to feel urgency against the Wizards and it’s hard to frankly make any real take any real evaluations from a dominant win against the Wizards. Other than the Cavs did a good job like fighting their senior Skip day vibes. Like you said, this was a char up game potentially for them and they had some moments of lackadaisical play and their energy, their energy kind of waxed and winged, but in the end they took care of business. So again, I don’t know if I’m going to, if I’m going to say, oh, I see the urgency already from Donovan Mitchell and James. Like tonight’s, it’s, it’s a game against the Wizards, a game you got to get through. But you hear it in what they’re saying. You can see Cavs told us with the James Harden move that it’s go time. That they’re worried about Donovan Mitchell. Donovan Mitchell’s long term commitment, felt like they need to press on the accelerator and they’ve done it to the max. Hearing James Harden and Donovan Mitchell say watching them play together is kind of the living embodiment of that message.

Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think to the other two players, obviously Keon Ellis and Dennis Schröder, both of them in their introductory press conference in Cleveland were like, I’m a winner. I want to win. We didn’t get to do that in Sacramento. Dennis Schröder talked about how it was a rough first two months when he was in Sacred because of the expectations that he has for himself. Holding himself and his teammates accountable has been something that has been attached to him his entire career and that simply wasn’t the case now. It felt like the moves that the Cavs were making were to get experience from the playoffs to get dog mentality. And both Keon and Dennis Schröder have that. James Harden has that, Donovan Mitchell has that. And maybe that rubs off a little bit more on some of the other guys that the Cavs might want to get. I believe Kobe Altman talked about this a little bit as well during his press conference post trade deadline like Jarrett Allen, and we saw that a little bit tonight. Jarrett Allen was 8 of 8 from the field. And in that second half, in the third quarter in particular, there was a moment where Jarrett Allen got tangled up with a Washington wizard defender. And it was like he kind of got hooked and he got called for an offensive foul, and Jarrett Allen was not pleased. And he used more expletives than I think I’ve ever seen Jarrett Allen use in the couple of years that I’ve been on this beat. And then he kind of changed his mindset. The first half was all hunky dory. The Cavs were up by 19 at multiple points during the first half. He was smiling, getting to his spots, all these things. And then in that third quarter, it was like, okay, I don’t really care about the smiling anymore. I’m just going to win. I’m going to compete. I’m going to put my shoulder into every defender I see, and you’re going to have to stop me from getting to the rim. And that helped him. That helped the Cavs. And Kenny Atkinson talked about it after the game about how this is a different version of Jarrett Allen than he’s ever seen, that he wants to know when the switch flipped for him, when it clicked. Maybe it was Evan Mobley being out for an elongated period once again and Jarrett Allen knowing that with Darius Garland out that they would need him to step up. All these other things. We’ve talked about it on this podcast before, but Jimmy, to me, I think it was when Jarrett Allen was forced to step away from the game, when he had a strain in one finger on one hand and a fracture in one finger on the other. He. He legitimately had to take a step back and realize that he had to be more engaged overall for the team to get where they wanted to go. And he talked about that openly about being a mental person needing to have that intact rather than being more physical. All these things. But having the obligation put on you to step up while also having the mental awareness of what was lacking at the beginning of the season, but also where you can be, I think has allowed Jarrett Allen to be an intricate piece of what the Cavs are doing, particularly without Evan Mobley, because of the screens that he’s able to set, the down screens that are being set around him in the movement and the spacing. Even if the Cavs are playing more of a half court offense with James Harden.

Jimmy Watkins: Exactly. It’s. It’s a combination of things. But I got it. I got to tell you, since Evan Mobile has been out, Jarrett Allen is 22 and 11 on 70.9% effective field goal percentage on 13.2 shots a game. That’s important. I think Kenny was tiptoeing around it in the post game presser. He sort of floated it as, yeah, maybe it has something to do with Evan. I wouldn’t. It’s almost exactly when Evan went out is when Jarrett started playing at a completely different level. And of course the last three. It’s hard to divorce that from the idea that they have added James Harden here, who is one of the greatest maximizers of player archetypes that fit Jarrett Allen of all time. From Clint Capella to Joe LMB to Avic Zubac, this guy’s been doing it his whole career. He’s been getting the most out of big man’s whole career. He’s a pick and roll savant. He is. So I think there’s some of that in there too. But it’s just like it makes a lot of sense that when Evan goes out, Jarrett plays better, there are more opportunities, there’s more space for him if you have four shooters around Jarrett El, as opposed to Evan Mobley hanging out in the dunker spot. Or maybe Evan Mobley playing on the perimeter and defenses this year deciding they don’t have to stay as close to him as they thought they might have last year. Like, it’s so funny the way we talked about the first couple years of the core four. Like is. Is Jarrett Allen’s presence hurting Evan Mobley’s development when in reality I think it’s a two way street. I think I want to say this up top. They are an incredible defensive pairing. They are the foundation upon which this Cavs team was has we talked about when they traded Darius Garland. Without Darius Garland, there is no James Harden trade. There is no. They wouldn’t have been in a position to make a James Harden type trade. They wouldn’t have been a position to make a Donovan Mitchell type trade. I think you could say the same thing about the Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley pairing. Evan Mobley, they started winning when Evan Mobley showed up, but the pairing, those two together set the defensive culture. That’s when they started winning games that first year. By the way, when Jarrett Allen got hurt during that season, the Cavs weren’t. I mean they were on like a 50 win pace for a while and then they fell down into the, the play. And once Jarrett Allen got hurt during that, that first year where they made the play in. So he’s always been an underrated part of this team and frankly, I think Taken for granted. I think Kenny is like Kenny said today, that today is the first time that the Cavs have run an ATO for Jarrett Allen all season. And I get it. You got Donovan Mitchell, who demands a lot of your attention. You got shooters that you Frank, who frankly, you kind of need to get them the ball for them to get shots, right? Those are the kind of guys you want to design plays for you. You had Darius Garland that points of this team. Evan Mobley put a lot of time into developing him, but I do think the Cavs are coming to this realization that maybe we’ve overlooked this guy a little bit and we have not tended to him with the kind of care that maybe we should have. I think the Cavs are feeling like they might have started taking Jarrett for granted at times this season. And Kenny has been open the last couple of weeks about saying, like, even when we’re all whole and healthy, like, I need to start, I need to be more creative in finding ways to get this guy the ball because he’s so frickin skilled. The way he has developed his touch around the basket is so impressive. Um, and he can legitimately be in some of the dark days of this season when the Cavs, we were looking at the Cavs like, who the heck else is going to score? Jarrett Allen can be that answer. If you can figure out ways to get him the ball. He’s not, I mean, like, he’s never going to create for himself. Like he will tell us, but he can fill up some necessary buckets over the course of the game if you put him in positions to succeed. And I’m going to be really interested to see how they approach this when Evan Mobley comes back. Kenny said today right after the Austin rig. I don’t know if it means the first game, but it’s sounds like Evan’s on track to return soon from that catch train. How do you approach this? What’s the balance of touches when they’re.

Ethan Sands: Both on the floor?

Jimmy Watkins: Do you spend more time? Is it a harder stagger between the two of them so you can get more spacing around both of them, which could benefit both of them? I mean, what does that do to each of their minutes totals? It’s a challenge. It’s going to be a challenge. Here’s another thing. James Harden and Jarrett Allen have immediately built an awesome pick and roll chemistry. So you’d like to pick, keep those guys paired up. And they already like keeping Donovan and Evan keeping their minutes aligned as much as they possibly can. But you’d also really like for James Harden to build that kind of chemistry with Evan Mobley as well in the playoffs. Because we still. I mean, I still don’t know that in every matchup that Jarrett Allen’s going to be closing four quarters when at the beginning of the season, he was not closing a lot of fourth quarter. So you’re going to need James Harden. We talked about it last night. Like, James Harden can put Evan Mobley in so many positions that Evan Mobley can’t get himself to. He can set the table for Evan Mobley. There’s a lot to juggle here. It’s a good problem to have. I think Kenny’s. Kenny’s got a lot of homework to do over the course of the All Star break to figure all this stuff out.

Ethan Sands: When we talk about the pairings, obviously, before Darius Garland and Jarrett Allen created this beautiful pairing that was so difficult for the Cavs to part with, Donovan and J. A had a partnership on the floor together a whole lot. And then last season, Kenny Atkinson was like, hey, you know how the best way to empower Evan Mobley, get him on the floor with Donovan Mitchell, allow him to facilitate that, Allow the best player on the team to tell you without having to say anything that, I trust you. And then this season, Kobe Altman said in his press conference after the trade deadline, hey, James Harden is going to help unlock our big guys, Evan Mobley in particular, and we’re going to need that. And I think it’s important because Kenny Atkinson has talked about, oh, it’s reward the big stay. Oh, we’re supposed to be rewarding the big. We’ve had multiple conversations with. Keep feeding them. And then you yourself say that you have only run one ATO for Jarrett Allen. I think that’s counterintuitive. And you cannot tell your players to do one thing and then not set out to do that yourself. As a coach, as someone who has trusted Jarrett Allen probably more than anybody in his entire career. And that also goes to the conversation of Dennis Schröder and what the relationship is. Obviously, it’s great to have a relationship with a coach coming in, but things change when you have a different roster around you. This isn’t the Atlanta Hawks from 2013. It’s not. This is a team that has championship aspirations, that has a team around it that James Harden said after the game, he doesn’t know how many teams he has said this about in his career, but he feels like this team, with the pieces that they have, can win a championship. And I was skeptical of that when we first heard about this Cavs trade for Darius Garland for James Harden and whether or not this is only going to help them get past Eastern Conference and if they could struggle against teams in the Western Conference when it comes to the NBA Finals. I do still think it’s going to be difficult when it comes to that kind of sense. But we’re focusing more on getting out of the east, getting out of the All Star break and where this team is going to be.

Jimmy Watkins: Can I just say one thing real quick? The idea that James Harden doesn’t know how many times he’s said this about a team that he’s been on, but he thinks this team can win a championship. I did one count on one Google search on how many times James Harden has said that about one of his teams. He said about the Clippers in September, okay, Clippers have gone sideways for a bunch of different reasons. He also, he’s also said it about the Brooklyn Nets when he first got there. And by the way, I don’t think he was wrong in his assessments looking at the talents on the end of the team. James Horton’s been on some fricking talented teams. But I bet you if I look, if I dig the Internet a little longer and I’ll let you guys in on a little secret. I think he said it about the Philadelphia 76ers, too. And I think he said it about the Houston Rockets when he first got there, too. This is the playbook. This is the hardened playbook. And I think we need to be a little bit. They look awesome. They look awesome. Right now. The fit between Harden and Donovan is better than expected. I think Dennis and Keon are still learning how to pick their spots, but their tenacity is already appreciated by the staff and hopefully can rub off on some of the other guys. But we need to be careful with the honeymoon. When we all acknowledge that this, this thing is. The success or failure of this thing is going to be determined in the last two rounds of the playoffs, the conference finals and the finals, right? So nobody has done anything yet and I don’t want to. I know everyone, people are hitting me up on and offline about my eight for the Harden Garten trade. I’m excited to see where this thing goes and I’m not trying to poo poo it, but it’s been three games and there’s a lot still to be learned about this team.

Ethan Sands: Right? And that’s what I’m saying, Jimmy, what I’m saying, I’m not pushing it to. They’re going to win a championship. Do they have a chance? Do they? Yes, but it’s first you have to get out of the Eastern Conference semifinals and then we see where it goes. Right? There’s a baseline for this team. Aspirations are here. Baseline is here. You have to meet both for us to truly have this conversation. And sure, they are also doing all of this without having a practice with James Harden. Again, as I reiterated on a recent podcast, James Harden was in California at USC with the Cavs, but the trade did not go through yet, so he was not able to participate. So the most that he has done with the Cavs is film sessions. Keone Ellis and Dennis Schröder have participated in one practice already with the Cavs team at usc. So there’s different things that we’re looking at here. But again, I want to get back to this game in particular really quickly, at least because we’re missing a player who legitimately put the Washington Wizards through a flamethrower. Sam Merrill. In the first half, if you want to just stick. There was 9 of 9 from the field, 7 of 7 from deep for 26 points. And there was a point in the game, Jimmy, where Sam Merrow hit a three. And the crowd and the Cavs and the bench were going so crazy that the officials thought that somebody had called a timeout because it was getting out of hand. Nobody had called a timeout. Nobody knew what was going on. The celebration had just like we’ve seen fights happen breaking out in the NBA recently. This was a different level of excitement from the fan base and from the team. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen something like that where nobody in the arena, not even the referees know if somebody called a timeout or if it was a stoppage of play or whatever, and they had to kind of reconvene afterwards and bring people back to earth after that little stretch that Sam Merrow went on. He ended the game with 32 points, which is a career high. He’s also the first Cavalier in franchise history to have multiple games making nine or more threes. The 93 is third on the all time list. There’s Kyrie Irving, who has 11, three players who have tied for 10, and then of course, Sam Merrill, who has done nine twice. So, Jimmy, when it comes to the spacing, when it comes to the gravity, the geometry of the floor that Sam Merrill, James Harden and Donovan Mitchell create on the floor together, sure, they’re a small lineup, but I think that James Harden plays bigger than he actually is. And Sam Merrill is tougher than he looks. And so that defensively, coupled with what the offense looks like with them on the floor together, it could make for a combination and a trio that Kenny Atkinson has to stick with, especially when we’re talking about guys coming back, getting healthy, Sam Merrow likely coming off the bench and finding a way to still utilize this grouping, Especially when we talk about playoff scenarios where you’re going to need the ball handling, you’re going to need the spacing, you’re going to need the IQ to create, especially for whoever else is still on the floor.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, it’s a nightmare to defend the Cavs. I mean, frankly, the Cavs generally, for the past two. Two years, have been a nightmare to defend with Sam Merrill and. Or Max Juice on the floor. Right. Like, when Kenny was talking when Sam was out earlier this year, and forget what exactly somebody asked, but somebody asked him, like, how do you. How do you kind of piece together what you’re missing without Sam? And Kenny said, we just need to get Sam back. That doesn’t exist. That in the moment when the cat, when everything was spiraling, it felt a little bit like grasping for excuses and trying to play the woe me card a little bit. But Sam Rail is important to Jack to this team. Man, the offense just has a different kind of ceiling when he’s out there. And there are some of these guys, some of these shooter guys, that have all this gravity that sometimes I wonder, like, are they really worth all the stress that a defense is investing in them? What’s the worst thing that could happen if you. Do you really have to change your entire defensive principles around these guys, chase them, not give him an inch of space. Sam Merrill’s that dangerous. He is actually that dangerous. You showed you tonight making all those. I actually thought the Cavs could have gotten him more touches earlier in the second half coming out of the break. I know rhythm doesn’t necessarily carry over through halftime, but, man, that guy was on fire. And he had, like, one shot in the first, like, five or six minutes of the third quarter. There’s. There’s more room. There’s, um. I think that the Cavs actually, in the first half, they were going to Sam often enough to the point where it’s like Jarrett Allen’s on a heater right now as well over the last couple games, and the Wizards don’t have a center, and frankly, the Wizards are playing some zone to try to combat that. But it’s like, I thought they could have gone to Jarrett Allen more. But you can’t argue when Sam Reynolds shooting the way he is. Right. He is a legitimate offensive weapon that changes the trajectory of, of the court when he, when he’s out there. And now that you have two all NBA level creators on the court with him, you’re seeing Sam and James still figuring it out. Figuring out their pick and pop chemistry or their pick and short roll chemistry that’s going to only get smoother. I think he’s an incredible asset for whether, whether they’re both on the floor.

Ethan Sands: Whether one of them are on the.

Jimmy Watkins: Floor like that guy. And then when Max comes back, if they can have a situation where one of those two are always on the floor as well, this team is. Again, you’re reminded of why this was the best offense in the league last year.

Ethan Sands: In part, it was because of what Darius Drago was able to do. Right. And we know that the Cavs understand the level of urgency that they have in front of them. Donovan Mitchell said it after tonight’s game. The time is now. And there’s an understanding that even though they want to move quickly and develop themselves and continue to progress, progress as a group, the Cavs are going to play a different level of pace than they have in the past. Because of James Harden being on the floor, because of Donovan Mitchell being on the floor and what they can do in the half court that is simply different. Having that without Lonville Ball, someone who couldn’t play in the half court. Right. Having multiple options and all of these things is completely important for this Cavalier team. One of the biggest things, Jimmy, is that everybody that’s talked to us, James Harden, Dennis Schröder, Keon Ellis, they’ve all said that the vibes are high. Donovan Mitchell has said it. The vibes are high. But it’s not just the vibes. It’s the camaraderie and the chemistry that have been built up over the years and how it’s been dispersed throughout the entire organization. Right. Like last year when DeAndre Hunter got traded four and George Niang and Caris Lavert got traded to Atlanta, it was more about, dang, we’re going to miss George and we’re going to miss Karras. Right? Like I could remember seeing Max Truze’s face and it being like, it’s going to be a minute before we’re fine. Darius Garland, tied for the longest tenured Cavalier, was gone. And the next day the Cavs looked like they were in true form. We didn’t get to go into the locker room for very long tonight, but it still felt like this group is already gelling because they all have a one track mind. They all know what is at stake, but it’s also they know that they can have fun together while still doing that. Like, they can still joke, they can still banter back and forth and all these things, but there’s an ultimate goal that they actually feel is attainable rather than just hoping for it. And I think that is extremely different from what happened last season because the Cavs and the Cavs organization, the front office went and got players that they feel like have the pedigree, have the precedent and have the mindset to not only help what was already here, but add to it. While DeAndre Hunter was great when he first got here last year, that kind of dip off, it feels like there’s not an acclimation period that the Cavs are going to necessarily need because it was perfectly timed, right? Long road trip. Dennis Shooter, Keon Ellis, get in. You get one practice with them. James Harden, film session savant, able to have a voice, talk about what he’s been seeing, pick out and point out two different things that the Cavs coaching staff didn’t even notice. That’s what Kenny Atkinson was talking about, about. Then you have this all Star break and before they can get back to their game against the Brooklyn Nets, which should also be a practice game, basically they have the off time for Kenny Atkinson to go into his film room and get into his little hut and figure out where he wants to go, what he wants to do, the lineups, accommodations and come back with a plan. And then during practice leading up to that Brooklyn Nets game, you get to apply those things. James Harden, what are you seeing? What are you doing? Teon Ellis, Dennis Shooter, where do you fit in? How can we best help you? And the other thing about this is, is that Keon and Dennis don’t really care as long as they’re winning. And that’s the mindset that I think is different from the DeAndre Hunter situation because there was expectations for DeAndre coming in, there was a desire for him to step up to the plate. There’s less of that with the Dennis Schröder and Keone Ellis guys. Obviously, James Harden has the role of what he’s going to do, but he also understands he’s playing next to Donovan Mitchell, who could arguably be in the MVP conversation because again, tonight, it didn’t even feel like he was doing that much, but he still had 30. It’s a group that we’re Seeing come together very quickly, and it feels like they’re going to keep moving seamlessly. And that’s why we want to continue to see it build. Because the Cavs could go for a top two seed in the Eastern Conference if this pace continues. But they have to maintain the process that has gotten them this far, but also the understanding that will help them along the way.

Jimmy Watkins: I want to pick out something you said about mindset there and about the. How quickly they moved on from Darius. So I just happened to be. So I was on the radio today, I happened to follow Chris, and I was in the car. We’re making a quick trip to the store. And Chris got asked about the Clippers comments about Darius’s toe. Which base? Which, if you didn’t hear them, basically they said the most recent toe injury that Darius has had is good now, the one that had kept him out most recently, but his recovery from the original surgery, they still want to be careful with that. Which lines up with what we heard, right? Like the day the. The game in which Darius got hurt. The broadcast was saying then, he’s only 70%. And they asked. It was Baskin and Phelps. And they asked Chris, what’s up with that? And Chris said, well, essentially what he said was the Clippers can afford to be a little bit more patient with Garland’s toe, the original toe, than. Than the Cavs could. The Clippers are not chasing championships right now. They’re kind of building for the future, so they can afford to be a little bit more patient. When I thought about that, I thought back to the reports that came out after Darius left, initially about how the Cavs had grown a little frustrated with his recovery habits. Maybe he wasn’t doing every. Everything he could possibly be doing to come back to the court. I asked Kobe Altman about it during the trade deadline zoom call. And he cut me off mid question and said, oh, that’s total bs. I’m glad you asked about that. Cause we want to refute that stuff. I don’t know, man. If I’m connecting the dots here, and I’m hearing Chris say that the Clippers can afford to be more patient with Darius’s toe than the Cavs could be. And we have reports. Reports don’t come from nowhere, folks, that the Cavs were frustrated with Darius’s return to play habits, I don’t know that that raises. That raised my antenna a little bit. And then you add in what Ethan’s saying there about these guys who are all about winning and how much more reinvigorated the locker room has been the last couple of days. I don’t know anything. I don’t have sources on this. I’m just listening. I’m just reading the tea leaves based on what’s being said out there by everyone else around us. And that smells a little funny to me. I’ll be interested to talk to Chris about that when we get back on the pod.

Ethan Sands: Where I thought you were going to go with that. Is that the mentality of Darius Garland? The maturation process of Darius Garland also might not have gotten to the point where the Cavs wanted it to be so shoot. 5th the funniest part of that is doing a introductory press conference during halftime of a basketball game to me is still insane. But doing his introductory press conference, he was asked what are the Clippers going to get from you? And he said, I’m a pretty fun guy and I’m going to win while I’m doing it.

Jimmy Watkins: He used the word nonchalant as well.

Ethan Sands: That doesn’t necessarily translate to what the Cavs wanted maturity wise. Right? And we heard it from Kenny Atkinson last year. Darius Garland needed to grow up. Doesn’t necessarily seem like he did that. Dennis Schröder grown James Harden 10 years older than Darius Garland. Keon Ellis still early into the league, but has the mindset of wanting to win, which is also based on the pipeline that the Cavs have liked. We talked about it yesterday on yesterday’s podcast. The title that the Cavs have, Keon falls into that was a non superstar in college that had to work his way through and get and went undrafted, then got a spot with the Sacramento Kings. Now he’s traded and competing for a championship. Those are the different through lines that we’re seeing for this Cavs team and the players that they have. You know, because it’s not only the skill type that they have on the floor, which I think is also true, but it’s also the mentality that they’ve had and that they’ve been growing together but also they’ve been curing to be on this team. And I think it’s important to note that there are guys on this roster that understand the timeline, whether it’s a two year window, whether it’s just this year and it’s not only now Donovan Mitchell deciding in two years if he wants to stay here. It’s James Harden saying can this team actually win a championship? Should this team be the reason I pick up my player option? Or based on something that he said tonight about taking some pay cuts in the past to help his teammates out and financially wanting to take care of his family, may be wanting a larger, longer contract down the road, who knows? But based on the conversation we had with James Harden because of a question that was asked during his introductory press conference, this is the time Koby Altman has said it. They’re going for it. There have been multiple people inside the organization that have said that this is it, this is the year. This is what they want. Because they’ve been saying it and now they’ve made the moves to actually do it on the court and back it up. Whether or not they will, we’ll still get there and we’ll find out, but we’ll find out together.

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I could do a whole podcast about James Harden’s comments about sacrificing money tonight, but I’m not going to do that. You were talking there, Ethan. You know who I thought of? I was thinking of Evan Mobley. Evan Mobley, shy reserved, Cavs, coaxing him out of his shell for going on five seasons now. Boy, when he comes back, is he going to encounter a different sort of energy, this type of urgency? I mean, in. In some regard. The Cavs have been playing with urgency for two years now. Like at the beginning of last year, we had the. We had an idea that if you don’t achieve your playoff goals, this could be it for the core four you were playing. At the very least, this like the stability of your teammates. If you like this team, then you’re going to have to bring it. Well, now the Cavs have pressed a jack. They, they. You didn’t bring it. Darius Garland’s gone. So now how do you respond? Evan Mobley, Mr. Shy reserved, needs to be coaxed out of a shell guy. Now that the gas has been floored to this level. Early returns again. We’ll see what it looks like in the playoffs. Those best gun women have had questions on this guy. I feel like Jarrett Allen has met the moment. I feel like Jarrett Allen’s playing with Suburb again. I would tell you that it’s no coincidence that he’s playing with more verve. The second that the guy who is better at setting him up comes to town, right, and Evan Mobley’s out and he’s getting more opportunities, he has more consistent rhythm. All that stuff that I usually say about Jarrett Allen being a function of the Cavs, not the other way around, this is going to be a big test for Evan Mobley, too. One of the things we were talking about when they first traded for James Harden is, is Chris was saying that like, hey, the Evan Mobley leap didn’t happen. And he was saying that with like some finality. It almost feels to me that pairing Donovan Mitchell and James Harden is at the very least putting a pin in the idea that this can be Evan Mobley’s team one day and that you’re going to be the guy that we run this offense through now. It’s like, hey, we got two awesome guards who can set you up. So you work with that and show us that you’re ready for the stages that we think these guys can can take you to. I’m very interested to see how and the mobile adjusts to this energy when he first comes back. Honestly, across the board, what this team looks like when, if I don’t know, they have a pretty nice schedule going forward. They hit a skid over the course of the rest of the season, but obviously playoff time down 2 1. With everything that’s hanging over this franchise right now, it’ll happen at some point. How do you respond?

Ethan Sands: We keep talking about it, right? The buy in from the organization to acquire James Harden and shift their mindset from what they thought coming into the year to accepting the failures that were and making moves to adjust to all of those things like James Harden talking about it doesn’t matter if I take four shots, all of which were three pointers. He literally didn’t take a two pointer that he didn’t get fouled on in tonight’s game. And then also saying, I have the confidence in myself because I’m a top 10 scorer in all time in the NBA and I’m also top 20 in assists all time in the NBA. But that also means that I can trust in the guys around me. And he’s saying that three games in. Obviously you can say that about Donovan Mitchell, he’s great all star. But saying that about Sam Merrill saying that about Jarrett Allen saying that about Jaylon Tyson saying that about Evan Mobley, who you haven’t played with. There’s an expectation of this group now and I don’t think it’s crazy to think that they’re on the right path to matching it. It’s just about what they’re willing to do, who they’re willing to become to get there. Because that is different than where they started this season. It was excuses and we’re not hearing those anymore, right? It’s not, oh, we gotta wait till Dean Wade’s back to be able to defend better. We got to wait till Evan Mobley’s back to be able to defend the painted area. Oh, we got to wait until Darius gets back for our offense to get going. We haven’t heard those one. Because they’ve been winning and figuring it out and winning ugly. Not necessarily pretty games, but ugly games. And that’s important because if the Cavs end up getting a top two seed and finishing the season above the Eastern Conference semifinals and getting to the NBA Finals and all these things, we then have to circle back to the adversity that started the season where everybody was questioning, is this team capable of doing this? Is this team even in the realm of being, like, a contender? Can they even get out of the East? That’s where we were at one point in this season not too long ago. And I think that is an identity that we’re going to have to come back to because there’s so many different things that happened early on into the season, and there’s a lot still left to be decided. And I think that’s the beauty of the NBA season. Although it may be too long, it allows processes to take place that not only us as journalists, reporters, media, but fans, even the team can create different thoughts about who they are. There are people around, around the Internet that were questioning whether or not Donovan Mitchell was going to request a trade. Now we’re here talking about championship or bust and a long way from where they were. But it’s the reality of what the Cavs are doing and what a organization is willing to do. Again, going back to that word, willing to do, willing to sacrifice to get to their ultimate goal.

Jimmy Watkins: The season’s long enough for the Cavs to decide before the first half is over that they need to blow up their court. How about that? How about that? I think we. I think you’re right. I think we do need to circle back on some of that stuff, because first of all, the Cavs were straightening the ship out a little bit before they got James Harden. They had started playing well, like they’re the best team in basketball since December 29th by record. And only three of those games have been played with James Harden. So kudos to the guys who have been a part of that turnaround. Right. Also, we also have to circle back to it because it’s going to be questioned again. Again, I will say, at some point during the playoffs, these dudes are going to be pushed to the brink, and it’s going to be, what do you got? And then we’re going to have the same conversations that we always have or same questions that we always have about Jarrett Allen and The rest of this, the rest of this team, like, are you built for it? Are you built for a Jarrett Allen? Are you ready to meet that moment? Evan Moby then that doesn’t necessarily mean 25, 12 and 7 necessarily. But it’s a, you know it when you see it. We’ve known that we haven’t been seeing it from the Cav. That’s why they made this trade. Let’s see you show Kobe Albin why he made this trade. He still, he still believes in this group enough to, to push the chips in, to age the backcourt 10 years. James Harden in many ways, while I still believe it’s, it’s a bet against Darius Garland, it’s still a bet on the rest of this team, maybe primarily Donovan Mitchell, but the rest of this team around him as well, that they think they have the pieces to win big. So let’s see.

Ethan Sands: All right, so we won’t be leaving you for the All Star break. We’ll still have five podcasts next week, but the Cavs will be leaving you guys for a little bit. So we’ll circle back to a lot of the different conversations that we had today, a lot of different conversations we’ve had on this podcast to begin the season. But until then, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a KAZ insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. We’re going to do our hey Chris episode tomorrow. Yes, if you got tired of just me and Jimmy, Chris will be back tomorrow, so send in your questions, but the only way you can do that is sign Signing up for Subtext. So sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com cav and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only, only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.