CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cleveland Cavaliers’ outlook heading into the second half of the season.
Takeaways:
1. Team Practices During All-Star Break Are Up In The Air, Despite New Players
The Cavaliers are not likely to hold team practices over the All-Star break to acclimate new players, including James Harden. According to Chris Fedor, any attempt by a coach to hold a practice during the designated break would likely lead to a “mutiny” from the players and is believed to be prohibited by the league’s collective bargaining agreement. While acknowledging that the new acquisitions need time to get in sync with the team — noting that Harden was still working on his conditioning — the time off is considered essential for rest. The team may have an opportunity for one practice session on the Wednesday following the break before they travel for their back-to-back games against the Brooklyn Nets and Charlotte Hornets.
2. Koby Altman’s Complicated Case for Executive of the Year
Koby Altman’s candidacy for Executive of the Year is viewed as complex, with his performance marked by both significant successes and failures. Voted on by fellow general managers, the award would weigh his widely praised trade deadline moves — acquiring James Harden, Dennis Schröder, and Keon Ellis — against what was described as a “disaster” of an offseason. Moves like the acquisition of Lonzo Ball and the signing of Larry Nance Jr. were cited as missteps that did not work out as planned. Altman’s chances are seen as dependent on the team’s final regular-season standing; securing a top-two seed in the Eastern Conference could help GMs overlook the earlier struggles.
3. Max Strus Faces an Uncertain and Reduced Role Upon Return
There is considerable uncertainty surrounding Max Strus’s role when he returns from his foot injury. The panelists noted that the team is exercising extreme caution after he previously re-injured the foot by pushing his recovery too hard. In his absence, other players like Sam Merrill, Jaylon Tyson, and Dean Wade have stepped up and earned significant trust and minutes, meaning the starting role Strus previously held is no longer available to him. While Strus has “built-in currency” with coach Kenny Atkinson, he will likely be eased back into a reduced role. The team’s decision not to trade his contract to get under the second tax apron indicates they see a valuable place for him, but what version of Strus they get back remains a major question.
4. Roster Changes Signal a Shift in Offensive Hierarchy
The acquisition of James Harden signals a significant philosophical shift for the Cavaliers, effectively admitting that the team’s championship window is on “Donovan Mitchell’s timeline,” not Evan Mobley’s. The early-season strategy of force-feeding Mobley to accelerate his offensive development is likely over. Instead, Mobley is expected to transition into a role more akin to a finisher and defensive anchor, similar to how bigs like Clint Capella thrived alongside Harden in the past. In the new hierarchy, Mitchell is Batman, Harden is Robin, and Mobley serves as a crucial but supporting piece. A key challenge for the coaching staff will be reintegrating Mobley without disrupting the offensive rhythm and higher usage rate that has made Jarrett Allen so effective recently.
5. Cavs Have a Clear Path to a Top Seed and 50+ Wins
With the third-easiest remaining schedule in the league, the Cavaliers are in a strong position to surpass 50 wins and compete for the top seed in the Eastern Conference. The panelists agree that expectations have been reset following the trade deadline moves. While the team will prioritize long-term health over chasing a specific seed, securing home-court advantage is a significant goal, as home teams historically have a major advantage in Game 7 scenarios. The potent offense, led by Donovan Mitchell and James Harden, is expected to overwhelm many of the upcoming opponents, including several “tanking teams.” The hosts project the team could win 20 of their final 27 games, putting them in the range of 54 to 56 wins.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter. He is back. I know y’ all might have got tired of me and Jimmy just doing it and a little duo tandem joint the last couple of days, but Jimmy is still here with us as well as we knock off another hey Chris episode of the podcast where we answer questions directly from our Subtext subscribers. You can have your questions answered on this weekly episode by subscribing to Subtext 14 days free 3.99amonth. And and we’re just going to dive right on in. Of course we know the Cavs had their last game ahead of the All Star break. Now Donovan Mitchell and Jaylon Tyson are headed out to California to enjoy some sun, but also to hoop. So our first question of today’s podcast comes from Chris in Lakewood. He says, are the Cavs going to get some practices in over the All Star bank to help the new guys get more acclimated or does the team just have off to rest? And I don’t think this is a crazy question because this is similar timing to what happened last year with DeAndre Hunter. We were hearing he had one practice before the playoffs. All these other things that are happening at the same time, obviously not just one player this year, but three players need to be acclimated and one of them is future hall of Famer James Harden. Chris, I know there is likely a plan, at least for Kenny Atkinson and his crazy self, to go over film with these guys, especially when I asked him after the game in particular just how excited he is as a point guard coach to kind of break down all the other options. He has to go one through three and play some small ball lineups as well. What do you think about the chances of them getting some practice time in with before coming back next week?
Chris Fedor: No, I, I think if any coach at this point of the season during All Star break tries to hold a practice, there would be a mutiny. Um, not to mention I do believe that it is illegal based on the schedule. And I think there’s one opportunity for them to practice, which would be Wednesday before they leave for Charlotte. So there is a possibility that before leaving for Charlotte and that road trip that’s going to be Charlotte, Oklahoma City, that they get one practice in that is on the heels of, of the All Star break. But All Star break means just that. It means a break. It means a break from basketball, it means a break from on court activities, it means a break from practice, film sessions, all that kind of stuff. And if, if we found out that Kenny Atkinson tried to hold a practice, I think he’d be fired the day before the Cavs came back because the players would all turn on him at that point. They do need practice time, there’s no doubt about that. I mean James Harden, when we were in Denver, he was running the stairs in the arena in the altitude because he was still trying to get his wind back from the week and a half that that he had off because of everything that was going on with the trade speculation and the Clippers decision to, to sit him down and his decision to be away from the Clippers and all that kind of stuff. So he needs practice, his team needs practice. But it’s not going to happen during the All Star break.
Ethan Sands: Okay, I’m curious because I know, I know they come back around Wednesday and then they play the the Brooklyn Nets on Thursday before heading to Charlotte on Friday. So I’m curious to see how that looks especially coming back in the first series. You have is a back to back. I think it’s quite insane for the NBA to do that. But we’re not going to hold too much water over this conversation. We’re going to move on to our next subtext question. This one comes from Stefan in East I’m going to mispronounce this. East Haddam, Connecticut do you think Kobe Altman will be named Executive of the Year? He will get my vote. That’s what the subtexter said. Obviously we not only are looking at what has happened this season when it comes to Kobe Almond’s decisions and accepting failure of what happened with the DeAndre Hunter acquisition. Obviously moving away from Ty Jerome, trading Isaac Okoro for Alonzo Ball in the off season, but then also making moves to acquire Dennis Schroeder to acquire Keon Ellis, to acquire James Harden. And to be honest, I think there’s been so much speculation when it comes to Kobe Altman and his moves over the last couple of years. But I think he needs to get more credit than he has at least on social media because of drafting Evan Mobley, drafting Darius Garland, drafting Isaac Okoro, then making moves to acquire Ty Jerome when it happened, all these other things that might have came off as no brainers, but there have been more than one executive that has made fun of faulty moves like those where the decision seemed to be right in front of them and they still decided to go another way. Chris, Jimmy, do you think that Kobe Altman should be executive of the year for this season. And if not, who’s got your vote?
Chris Fedor: So here’s the thing, just for clarity purposes, so that people don’t seem to think that the media picks this one. It is other general managers across the NBA that vote on who gets executive of the year. So I have no say in this. Other writers around the country, they don’t have a say in this either. But I think you have to look at the body of work throughout the course of the season in totality. And there are certain things that are going to help Kobe Altman, obviously the trade deadline. The Cavs are looked at as one of the big winners of the trade deadline and the moves have have worked to this point. But there was also the off season, which was a disaster for this front office. There’s no other way to say it. Every move that they made either did not work or did not work the way that they expected, with the exception of Thomas Bryant and Sam Merrill. And if like that’s your claim to fame for what you have from the off season, that’s not really a strong case for executive of the year. Especially when you have the Denver Nuggets that went out, got Cam Johnson, went out, got Tim Hardaway Jr. Jonas Valentunas. They had a two way guy who was starting games for them. They had another two way guy who was playing a big role for them as well. So if you look at it in totality, Kobe had a lot of grunt to make up. Now it appears that he has made up good ground. Dennis Ruder looks like it’s a fit. James Harden might be the biggest move by any team all season. And this goes back to the off season because the Desmond Bain thing hasn’t worked as well as people thought in Orlando. And the only other splashy landscape, shifting moves, I guess the one that you can come up with is Houston going for Kevin Durant. That has worked really, really well given where they are in the standings. And then of course there’s the Phoenix Suns who hired a new coach who may be in the running for coach of the year. And then they have Dylan Brooks who has really helped change the culture of the Phoenix Suns. But James Harden and what he has done for the Cavs is right on that same level with what Dylan Brooks has done, with what Kevin Durant has done in Houston. And of course, you know, when you acquire a Hall of Fame player like James Harden and you win every game after that. It all depends, I think where the Cavs finish in the Eastern Conference if, if they make a run here in the second half, and I think there’s a pathway to it, if they make a run and they get to the number one seed in the east or if they get to the number two seed in the east and the moves that were made at the trade deadline are a big part of that, then I think it’s going to be easier for these other GMs around the league to overlook the Lonzo Ball debacle, to overlook the Larry Nance Jr. Signing that has just not worked. To overlook the fact that they moved on from Ty Jerome despite all of the issues that they had from a point guard perspective throughout the course of the regular season, at least the early portion of the regular season. So I do think this one is, is kind of up in the air, and I think there’s a pathway to Kobe, you know, claiming it because of what he was able to do at the trade deadline, but he certainly had ground to make up, just like the Cavs have ground to make up in the Eastern Conference.
Jimmy Watkins: Absolutely, there’s a path for him. In part. In part because this wasn’t the noisiest offseason. Right. Because there wasn’t a lot of teams with cap space. We’re in a new CBA environment where teams are afraid to flirt with the second apron. And to that point, I think Kobe should probably get like a degree of difficulty bump for making. Making all the moves that he made while the Cavs are still, as we speak, over the second apron. Right. Like they. Yes, it’s. It is true. It is a funny thing to say. This guy should win executive of the year when most of his moves this year have been admitting defeat on other moves that he made. Right. That’s a, that’s a weird concept, but he bowed out of them pretty well. Right. Like the DeAndre Hunter trade. Well, the Kings would say, well, you’re. Thank you for taking the Dennis Schroeder contract off of our hands and we’ll see how movable that is going forward if the Cavs ever explore that avenue. But he fits what the Cavs are trying to do. He is a win now type of player. And so they would say, okay, yeah, maybe we don’t love the contract, but for with situation we’re in right now, yeah, we’ll definitely take Dennis Schroeder and Keon Ellis off of your hands. And you take this, the salary that is not super attractive to everyone else right now. It’s such a classic King move.
Ethan Sands: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: Like so many. I think I Think a smart front office goes okay, you clearly are off this player. What are you going to give me? What are you going to give me in order for me to take on that contract? The Kings are like, well, we have so many bad contracts already that what if we just gave you one of ours and you lighten our debt load a little bit? That’s just a funny Kings thing. But yes, the James Harden trade, if it, if it keeps going the way it looks like it’s going. And like I said, the Cavs are a regular season big time team again. Like as particularly given their schedule going forward, I think we could see them rip off a crazy run the second half of this season. Obviously there’s no more big moves to be made out there. So I could totally see it. I would also throw out and this is not going to be a sexy pick. I would throw out the Detroit Pistons just because they are going to be award season darlings because of the jump they made. And it’s not, you know, what did they really do? They traded for Kevin Herder at the deadline. They added Duncan Robinson in the off season. But those small things can go a long way for a team that really needed a lot of help on offense. They’re a top 10 offense now. This last year I think they were 14th. That those are, you know, that’s, that doesn’t seem like a huge move, but that’s for a team that’s trying to vault into contention. I think that can be. And also like I also have a question about. And this could this folds into the Kobe conversation as well. How much credit do we give front offices in this conversation for the internal development of players that they have already had? I think that’s a really interesting, particularly a case like this year where there’s not a ton of splashing moves out there. I think, you know, Jalen Duran becoming an all Star, is that a front office credit? Is that a coaching credit? In reality, everyone shares the credit. Is it with the Cavs. Like yes, okay, the Cavs had to get off of Lonzo Ball. They had to dump two second round picks. But they have Nae’Qwan Tomlin, but they have Frank Porter Jr. A lot of good stories on this team. Those moves along the margins, those aren’t going to determine the winner. But I just think that in the year where we don’t have a ton of, you know, big time moves to evaluate those things could play a role as well.
Chris Fedor: I think there’s something to be said, Jimmy, to, to what you’re talking about. There in terms of what is the roster that you built and how good is that roster that you built. And it doesn’t have to be splashy moves necessarily, but if you build a 41:40 win team, which the Detroit Pistons have at all star break, you know, you can’t just overlook that. You know what I’m saying? Like, you were the executive that was in charge of that roster being put together and being built. And the same thing goes for the Boston Celtics. To be able to withstand. And I don’t know what moves you even point to, but to be able to withstand losing a top five player and still being second in the Eastern Conference. And oh, by the way, the other moves that you made from a salary cap dumping perspective in the off season because of the apron restrictions that you had with Porzingis and whatnot. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know the signature move for the Celtics, but that roster, being able to construct a roster that’s able to withstand a Jason Tatum loss and win 35 games in the unofficial first half of the season, you can’t just overlook that completely. There’s no way that you can, because that is good work. No matter if you want to credit Joe Missoula more or if you want to credit Brad Stevens more, somebody put that together, right? And you do have to look at some of those kinds of things, I think independent from just like, hey, what moves have you made over the course of the last year? And were they good, were they bad? What kind of roster have you been able to build? And the Celtics have a case. The Pistons have a case. Certainly Oklahoma City has a case. San Antonio probably has a case, even though there’s not like that standout move that you would think would be a separator.
Ethan Sands: And that’s why I think this is a great question, right? Because obviously it’s after the trade deadline, people have made their almost final official moves. Obviously there’s still a buyout market and things that can be had at that point of the season. But while we’re still waiting to have conversations about all NBA teams, all defensive teams, all of these different things, because those are full season spectrums, this is a conversation that can be had now, but it also entails how your team ends up finishing the season. And speaking of finishing the season, that requires team health, Right? And we talked about it on yesterday’s podcast, me and Jimmy, about how Kenny Atkinson mentioned that Evan Mobley could be ready to make his return directly after the All Star break. So the next question gets into another player who the cavs hope to return after the All Star break. This question comes from Jeff in Friday Harbor Washington. He says, hey, dudes, I’m amped with how things are going. Are you hearing anything about Max Stroose? And if he comes back this season, how do you see him fitting into this incredibly deep rotation? And guys, I think the important thing about this conversation, we’ve talked about the depth of this roster, obviously coming into the year, but even more so now, probably the least likely player to see the floor in the playoffs is Larry Nance Jr. Who is a guy that the Cavs acquired this off season because of his veteran leadership and his experience in the playoffs. And yet the Cavs have seemingly not used him even in opportunities when he could have been useful. So I’m curious, because of the depth of this roster, because of the question asked by Jeff, what are you hearing, Chris, specifically about Max Strus, his process of recovery? And where do you see him fitting? Is he still a top eight player on this roster?
Chris Fedor: There is something that Max Struss has on his side, something that Larry Nynch Jr. Never did. It’s built in currency. Kenny Atkinson saw Max Struse be effective in his system. Kenny Atkinson saw Max Struse be effective around the old Core 4, around many components that are still on this roster. Kenny Atkinson loves the movement, the cutting, the tenacity that Max brings to the table, and he has built that over the course of his time with Cleveland in a way that Larry Nance Jr. Has not been able to. So that’s something that is going to benefit Max. The other thing that benefits him is that some of the guys that are in front of him on the depth chart, there are questions attached to them. At the very least, there are questions attached to them. Dean Wade, can he stay healthy? How reliable is he going to be? Can he stay confident? Nae’Qwan Tomlin, great story. Guy who has emerged from a two way into a standard contract. But there are legitimate questions about how reliable is he going to be, how viable is he going to be when the playoffs roll around? Can he stay out of foul trouble? Can he knock down some of those open threes? So Max has that on his side as well. Um, in terms of his. His injury, like, I think one thing we have to point out here is that he started the road trip, the recent road trip with the Cavs, on the road with them being around them, and then he went back to Cleveland. So he is conducting workouts again. We’ve been talking about that for the last couple of weeks, but a lot of the workouts that he’s doing are individual based and there is a progression here. And the last time that Max started to try and progress and he really started pushing it, the Cavs had to protect him from himself and he re injured his foot and they were like, hey, we’ve got to pull you back here. We’ve got to limit some of the on court activity, give this foot a little bit more time to heal and then see what it looks like. So how he progresses throughout this process as we get into the second half of the season and it’s the early going and he’s back on the court trying to go two on two, maybe three on three, take some contact eventually. How does he respond to that? How does his foot respond to that? What’s his conditioning like, all that kind of stuff. It does not feel like to me the same situation as Evan Mobley and Dean Wick where the expectation is when the Cavs come back from All Star break, those guys are going to be in the lineup and they’re going to be ready to go. With Max. There’s still this, this ramp up process and I think because of the scare that the Cavs got with Max about a month ago, I think that’s going to make them more cautious and I think that’s going to make them dot every single eye and cross every single tee when it comes to this recovery process from Max. And I also think because of the depth that they’ve added to this roster and the way that they believe they fortified this roster at the trade deadline with helpful pieces, eliminating their negatives and bringing in potentially helpful pieces, I think they are able to express a little bit more caution when it comes to Max and I think they’re able to take their time a little bit more even though he’s going to get really, really antsy.
Jimmy Watkins: The question I would have about that is the more time you wait to bring Max back, the further entrenched the current guys feel in their current roles. And I’m, you know, Nae’Qwan Tomlin is a good story, but I would imagine that almost regardless of circumstance, Max Drew will be above him in the rotation when he returns. I don’t feel that way about Sam Merrill and Jaylon Tyson and those are the guys that I’m looking at who are in the most direct competition with, with Max for minutes when it comes to playoff time. Because in the regular season, you know, you could spread the wealth around a little bit. Maybe we throw Kean Ellis in there too, but I would put Max ahead of Keon again because of the, the, the credibility that he has built with Kenny over the last year. Plus whether that’s, you know, last year playing well or even just, you know, Max being, you know, Kenny values Max’s presence being around the team this year just as much as. As he would have maxed out there. Although you’d obviously love to have both. So Sam, Sam Merrill and Jaylon Tyson right now, if you look at the Cavs like basketball reference, it’s a little messy because they’ve had a lot of players on the team this year due to the trades. But to this point in the season, Sam Merrill and Jalen Tyson are both playing about the load, the minute load that Max Scholars playing last year. Max was playing 25.5 minutes per game last year. Sam Rail is at 25.4. Jalen Tyson’s a touch over 27. He has exceeded that. So I would think at the very least that Max Dress’s role and this makes sense when you’re going to be working someone back anyways, it will start as a reduced role and then we’ll see. And then we’ll see. Just because those two dudes have done so much, they have earned so much trust. They’ve been huge parts of steadying this ship without all of the key pieces, including Max this season. I, I do think, I think it’s smart for the Caps to, with this particular injury to wait until. That everything is. Until there’s nothing left to. To question about Max’s readiness to return. But I also also think it’s tricky for a guy who is so used to being such a big part of this offense to reintegrate himself so late in the season when I would imagine, by the way, Chris talked, by the time that Max the cast, the Cavs have crossed every T and dotted every I like they’re going to have some. They’re going to have some real juice with this new James Harden, Donovan Mitchell led group. And again Max, Sam Merrill and Jaylon Tyson are only gaining steam every day, it feels like.
Chris Fedor: And I think the other thing to point out here is that Kenny wants to explore Keon Ellis as a closer, see if he can fit in the closing lineup next to James Harden, next to Donovan Mitchell and then whoever the other two are that you’re going to fight. But. But in that kind of iteration, Keon Ellis is the three. So I know we talk about positionless basketball and stuff like that, but you still have to put a lineup out there that you think makes sense and has positional versatility. Positional size. So the reality is for Max. Well, one reality is the Cavs just don’t know what version of Max they’re going to get. And they won’t know that until he’s in a meaningful NBA game. Getting up and down the floor, testing that foot, coming off of screens, chasing other dudes around screens, running a two man game with either Jarrett or Evan. That’s when the Cavs will get a better answer on what version of Max they may have for the playoffs. The other reality is that the role that Max left behind essentially when, when he fractured his foot, that is not the one that’s waiting for him. That one is not available to him anymore and it’s nothing that he did wrong. But other guys have stepped forward and they have shown that they were ready for an expanded role and other guys have taken advantage of the opportunity. And as you said, Jimmy, Sam Merrill is one of them for sure. Jaylon Tyson is another one for sure. But so is Dean Wade. Dean Wade is still the best D defensive player that they have when it comes to guarding opposing winks. He is their best option against Jalen Brunson, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Brown. Go up and down the list of guys that you may see either in round one two or in the conference finals. Dean Wade is the one who has done that for a majority of the year. Dean Wade is the one who has done that most success successfully for the majority of the year. And with him in the starting lineup, that’s when the Cavs have been at their best.
Ethan Sands: Going back to Jimmy’s point really quickly about just how confident these guys that are getting added minutes, getting added time in the role that Max Schrouss has left behind. That also goes hand in hand with the fact that there’s only 27 games left. So the ramp up period for Max Struse is going to be small. And you don’t necessarily want to ramp him up where he feels like he has to be rushing when he’s on the floor. Right? We’ve seen what happens when he pushes too hard. Sometimes you re injure yourself. Sometimes you do too much. Sometimes the Cavs have to pull you back. And if you’re doing that mid game and trying to earn a spot that you felt was yours, I think that’s going to be detrimental to the experience that we’ve seen from Max Truth. And he’s not going to have the same output that we’ve seen. But of course he’s going to play hard. That’s who he is to his core. But there has to be a level of balance from pushing yourself to play at the same standard that you set when you left and also realizing that your body is not the same as when you left it. And I think that’s what’s going to be difficult when it comes to the time period left because the Cavs have already played 55 games. Remember last year when this happened for Max Druse and he was out with the ankle injury. He only missed 27 games. So there was a longer Runway for the Cavs to figure out where he was going to be, how he was going to fit back in. Now you just have 27 games left to figure out if Max Sch is going to be a rotation player, if he’s capable. Because as Chris has said, and as Chris has said for weeks now, the Cavs do not know what version of Max Sch they are going to get. And that is the biggest question portion of this conversation because last year he was a starter, the year before he was a starter. Now you’re trying to figure out where you can best help. And I don’t know how Max Drew is going to react and respond to that reality because of how he has come into this organization and met so much to it thus far.
Jimmy Watkins: Already there’s already like a log jam of Max Truce sized guys on the roster. This would be so much easier if masters was like 6 7, right? But between Keon Ellis 67 and Interesting. No, nice. There you go. But between like your Keon Ellis is your Jayla, your Jalen Tysons, your. Your Sam Merrills guys that the Cavs have, you know, defined plans for. And then you throw Dennis Shooter into the mix of just like Dennis Shooter. There’s a way where you could steal minutes for Max as like a backcourt guy if you’re, if like if Lonzo Ball was still around to defend a little bit bigger guys, right? And you could still, you like Max, you could cheat up a little bit. He can, he can bump chest with guys. But like Dennis Schroeder who again has a very is going to have a pretty defined role going forward here just by virtue of being, you know, his size. He’s going to push everyone up a position, everyone on the court and they’re going to want to pair him with Don one of Donovan or, or, or James a lot of the time. So it’s, it’s. I could see Max Streuss’s minutes getting.
Ethan Sands: Squeezed here and the last thing I’m going to say on the Max Druce point is don’t be surprised if you see Max Schrouss getting power forward minutes air quotes on the power forward minutes because as Chris said, it’s positional. It’s basketball and Kenny Atkinson’s offense, but they need a space for him. We don’t know how healthy Dean Wade’s going to be, Larry Nance Jr’s not reliable, Nae’Qwan Tomlin’s not necessarily already stamped as a playoff performer. All these things. So there are going to be times and I’m not going to be surprised if Kenny Atkinson’s like, hey, James Harden, Donovan Mitchell, Sam Merrow, Max Drews, Evan Mobley, get out there. I think that would be a lineup that I could see him throwing out and seeing how the spacing affects defenses.
Chris Fedor: The Cavs could have dumped him. If the Cavs didn’t want him and if they didn’t think anything of him or if they didn’t foresee some kind of playoff related role for him, they could have dumped him and gotten under the second apron and they chose not to. They decided that they have a place for Max. So if they’re going to pay him the $16 million and keep him on this roster and they’ve been committed to his recovery and they’ve been trying to do things right behind the scenes, they see a way that he can help them and elevate them when you get closer and closer to the playoffs. Now that’s all about how does Max’s foot recover? How does he feel when he’s out there? Can he be effective playing through while recovering from this injury? Because being healthy enough to play and being effective. We’ve talked about this so many times on the podcast. Two completely different things. But the Cavs have enough belief in Max that they decided not to duck underneath the second apron when they probably had an opportunity to do that at the trade deadline. Because they see a place for him on this roster, they see a place for him in this rotation.
Ethan Sands: As I mentioned, the player that kind of maybe changes how this gets looked at and how his performance and we’ve talked about this on the podcast, could grow after the All Star break is Evan Mobley. The viability of Evan Mobley, how he is transforming himself, getting back from injury as well, a calf injury that has not only hindered him once this season, but twice. And the Cavs are again going to be cautious with this. But Evan Mobley heals fast. All these other things. So the next question from our subtext comes from Bob Marsh in Florida who says, what do you make of the Cavs Offense looking so much better without Evan Mobley. I believe this is proof two non shooting bigs cannot survive in today’s NBA. Your thoughts? So Jimmy, this is a question that kind of goes back to the conversation we were having yesterday about maybe Jarrett Allen wasn’t necessarily holding back Evan Mobley, and Evan Mobley was maybe holding back Jarrett Allen from reaching what he had been doing. All these other things. I want to hear your perspective first and maybe set up Chris for what you were thinking from yesterday’s conversation that you wanted to make sure he was in on.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, first we should acknowledge that it’s been seven games, which is a small sample size. And in those seven games the Cavs have played six defenses that ranked 19th or worse in defensive rating. Context. Context. Cavs look awesome. The offense, it’s certainly having one big out there changes the spacing. Frees up Jarrett Allen. That’s all still very true. Also strange that I was looking this up earlier today because I saw this question before we started. CAVs are weirdly sixth in offensive rebound percentage since. But Evan Mobley went out. Not sure. Not sure what that is. Again, seven games can always just be random noise. This is too small of a sample size to read really anything into. And it also should be noted that last year the Cavs were for the long stretches of the season, the best offense in the league with lineups that featured a heavy dose of two bigs. So in the playoffs, I still have questions about it. I think the Cavs have clearly shown that, like the way they, they manage Jarrett Allen at the end of fourth quarter, sometimes they have their own questions, reservations about it. But it has certainly worked at a, at a high enough level where like I’m not, I’m not looking at this stretch and say, oh, you got to change everything. But like we said yesterday, I think two things can be true. I think when there’s. When Jarrett Allen’s on the floor, it can sometimes be harder for Evan Mobley to get loose and do all the things that he needs to do. And when Evan Mobley’s on the floor, it can be harder for Jarrett Allen to operate in space. Like that’s, that’s totally reasonable. When you have four shooters around a big man and you’re running pick and roll. Particularly again, the last three games, Jarrett Allen has been awesome before James Harden, but once you get James Harden, it makes Jarrett Allen look even better. Without Evan Mobley. Sure. Yeah, it’s. It’s a, it’s a spacing thing. Of course, of course Jarrett Allen is Going to look better with four shooters around him as opposed to Evan Mobley being around him. And of course, Evan Mobley would look better on offense without. Without Jarrett Allen playing next to him. But again, particularly now the. The conversation we just had about, oh, Max truce, might play some four. That’s an awesome offensive lineup. Potentially the bigs would feast there. Who’s Garden, who going the other way? Who’s going to. Going the other way? Like, now more than ever. I think the Cavs need both of these guys for. At least for right now. We don’t know what this roster is going to look like, you know, 12 months from now, but for the rest of the season, you definitely need both of these guys to protect a lot of the. The size mismatches that the Cavs are going to be dealing with on the perimeter. Quickness, quickness disadvantages that they’re going to have. Like, there’s a lot of offense first players on this team right now on the perimeter, and you’re going to need Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley to cover for those weaknesses. I don’t. I don’t think. This is not a proof of a. Of a. This is. No. Aha.
Ethan Sands: We found.
Jimmy Watkins: We finally found the last straw in the. The Evan mobile. Jarrett Allen, too. Big debate. It’s just an awkward reality that has always existed.
Chris Fedor: I think this is a fascinating conversation, and I think it’s going to lead to wonkiness because bringing Evan Mobley back into the mix is reintroducing a pretty significant piece of what was their offense. But I think they made an omission at the trade deadline that Evan wasn’t ready, just like they made the admission that Darius wasn’t ready. So, so much of this season was about Evan. Evan taking the next step, the evolution of him on the offensive end of the floor. More touches, higher usage, different kind of way to unleash him within the offense, and all of that was to be better positioned for playoff success. Diversify the offensive tack. Have somebody else that you can run the offense through that’s not Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland. That was the thinking coming into this season. He was supposed to be the difference. Like his evolution was supposed to be the separator for the Cavs. The thing that was going to be drastically different from last year’s team and the thing that was going to be their parachute in case they had to pull the ejecto seato. But I think they recognize that Evan’s just not there, and that’s okay. Development is not always linear, and just because he was an all star last year and second team all NBA last year. Didn’t mean that he was guaranteed to take another step forward. It didn’t mean that he was guaranteed to become this offensive force and he just hasn’t been. So I think them trading for James Harden, a ready made playoff guy, 36 years old, future hall of Famer, has scored over 30 points in about 40 something playoff games and somebody who is on the Donovan Mitchell timeline as opposed to the Evan Mobley timeline. And by the way, I don’t think it was an accident. Donovan is very careful with his words, but I don’t think it was an accident that when he talked to me the other night following the game in Denver and we had a one on one conversation about a bunch of different things, I don’t think it was an accident that he used the term Runway and he kind of threw it back because that was something that Kobe Altman used over and over and over again. The Core 4 gives us a different Runway. The Core 4 gives us a level of sustainability. The Core 4 means that we don’t just have to go all in. This was more an all in thing where it was a recognition that a championship, if it’s going to happen, is not on Evan Mobley’s timeline, it’s on Donovan Mitchell’s timeline. So now you combine all of that and you say, all right, how are they going to use Evan? What’s the plan now for Evan? So much of it at the beginning of the season was essentially force feeding him and trying to pull something different out of him offensively. Is now there just an acceptance that that’s not going to happen and it’s not going to happen this year and he kind of goes a little bit more toward the background. It doesn’t mean that he’s going to disappear. It doesn’t mean that he’s not going to get touches. It doesn’t mean that the Cavs aren’t going to run pick and roll with James Harden and Evan Mobley. But I think the high usage Evan Mobley, the big volume Evan Mobley, I don’t think that’s there and I don’t think that’s going to be there and I don’t think that can be there because they have seen success in a different kind of way and I think they have to continue to try and tap into that more and more and more. So catch lobs, roll to the basket, see if James can find you, anchor the paint defensively, offensive rebounds, maybe some pops for threes every now and Then. But Evan Mobley, focal point of the offense, I just don’t think that’s in the cards. And I think there was an admission from the Cavs at the trade deadline that he was not ready for that. Not right now, anyway. So I do think there’s going to be some wonkiness here. And the other thing that can’t happen is Jarrett just can’t go away for the season. Jarrett has a usage rating of about 18 over the last seven games. His usage rating is right around 23. That’s a big jump. It’s a big jump. And look at how the Cavs offense has performed. Look at how engaged Jarrett has been when it comes to defense, when it comes to rebounding, when it comes to attacking the rim, when it comes to rolling to the basket. Evan and Jarrett can lead to some clunkiness on the offensive end. Jarrett kind of willingly takes a step back because they occupy similar space within the offensive structure. Still, Jarrett’s comfortable around the basket. Evan’s comfortable around the basket. So they have to be careful about not making Jarrett revert back to the first half of the season. Jarrett too much. They have to keep him engaged, they have to keep him involved because he has shown that he can be successful in that kind of role, especially alongside James Arden. So I don’t think this is going to be easy. I think this is Kenny Atkinson’s greatest challenge in the second half of this season. That and finding a five man closing lineup that, that he can trust, a lineup that he thinks is his best five man lineup. I think that’s still to be determined. But refitting a different version of Evan Mobley than the one from the first half of the season because of the way that this roster has changed. I just don’t think that’s that simple as saying, well, you’ve got James Harden, you’ve got Donovan Mitchell, they make their teammates better and they’re just going to find a way to fit high usage, high volume, high touch. Evan Mobley. I just don’t think it’s that easy.
Ethan Sands: I just think it’s so funny that you put it that way, Chris, because when we first met Kenny Atkinson, right, the introductory press conference, it was like, okay, here are the top three questions, and if not number one, but maybe number two, the question was, how do you make two non shooting bigs work? Can you do it? And he was like, oh, well, I have already in my career, right? Jonathan Kaminga, Draymond Green. I have done it before, I can do it again. And there have been instances where you’ve seen it, right? And obviously it started with separating them from the lineup and figuring out players around them that work. The other portion that I thought was funny that you said, Chris, was that they cannot. That Jarrett Allen cannot revert back to the player that he was at the beginning of the season. Evan Mobley can’t either. I think if he is focusing on one or two things, one thing offensively and everything defensively, that allows him to be balanced. Because sometimes we know if he’s such an intellectual person that if he has too many things on his mind, it can take away from where his focus is or where it needs to be, especially on the offensive end because there was so much on his plate. So much on his plate. And the other portion of this is you saying right now, he’s not ready right now. And Kobe Altman mentioned this and admitted this in his post trade deadline press conference. And he said, and I quote Evans, our future, he’ll always be a mainstay for us. He gives us an incredible Runway to extend far beyond this year and next year. Because they know that the window is this year and next year possibly right? And there is an understanding within the organization, there’s an understanding between us that this Cavs team cannot rely on Evan Mobley as who he is currently to be a 1A 1B type of player. That’s why they win James Harden. That’s why they think he can unlock Evan Mobley. And what that means is still to be seen. But in the instance that James Harden decides that loyalty doesn’t really matter, does it really exist in the NBA and decides to leave Cleveland because there’s another financial opportunity or a better place for him to win a championship. Don’t know if that’s true or not, but if that happens, the Cavs can still look, hey, effing Mobley, we’ve been getting you in the development pipeline this whole time. You’ve learned how to play next to two All Stars, future Hall of Famers. Are you ready now? You’re 26, 27. It’s your prime years. Are you ready? And I think that’s the idea of the roster construction for this team because of how many pieces they’ve put together. The idea of now, but also still building for the future. And even if Donovan Mitchell’s not here, Colby Altman pinned this second guy that the Cavs could be building around, and that person is Jalen Tyson. And I think it’s very funny that those two people are personality wise, extremely different, and yet they play together. Super, super well. And I think it’s a point that the Cavs are going to try and build off of because especially looking at this year and where they want to go and Jaylon Tyson getting playoff experience and all those things. It also ties into the future and how they could be ready to be their own 1a, 1b together if the Cavs have to are forced to dismantle the roster around them.
Chris Fedor: In the current hierarchy, Evan Mobley is Alfred Donovan’s Batman, James Harden’s Robin, and Evan Mobley’s Alfred. That’s the way it’s got to be moving forward. That’s the way it should be moving forward. That’s basically what they said it was going to be when they made the trade. You don’t bring James Harden here to be third wheel. You brought him here to be Donovan Mitchell’s co star because nobody else on this roster was ready to be Donovan Mitchell’s co star.
Jimmy Watkins: We have co Alfreds kind of with Evan and Jarrett. We got. We hired some extra help seasonally, I guess.
Chris Fedor: Can one be Commissioner Gordon?
Jimmy Watkins: Maybe. Maybe one could be Commissioner Gordon. Be. Get Batgirl involved. I don’t know. Get the whole universe in there. Let’s do a crossover episode. There’s a world where James Harden simplifies Evans offensive role in a way that. That makes Evan look like a better player on paper. Yeah, I could see Evan scoring more efficient. Yeah, more efficient. And. And more often, like, because he’s just. There’s just so much that j. Like we talked about after the trade initially, like, James takes so much off the table that the Cats were trying to put on Evan Mobley’s plate to start this season. It’s. It’s all. This is tricky timing with this injury because now James has this awesome chemistry with Jarrett Allen and you don’t want to break that up. And I don’t know, it’s. It’s really interesting. You know, going forward, it’s. It’s very nice to have Evan a little bit to lean on. But over the course of the next 18 months, I don’t know how much of the in game development he’s going to be able to do of the skills that you would want him to do once he is your future. Whenever we get past the James Harden, Donovan Mitchell era, because he’s going to be KO Alfred with. With Jarrett and that’s. That’s really doesn’t matter right now. Right now what matters is maximizing him in his current role so you can win a championship. But that’s just another wrinkle to it.
Chris Fedor: In saying that I think it’s a good spot for Evan where he doesn’t have to be the focal point on offense, where he doesn’t have to create for himself over and over and over again. Early on in his career he’s been at his best when other people have been creating for him and there’s a little bit of self creation that he’s been doing this year that he’s been that he’s been better at than in the past. But to have James Harden creating better looks for you, that is something that any player would sign up for. Look at what James Harden has done historically with other bigs. Clint Capella might owe his career to James Harden and he thrived in a specific role alongside James because James is such a great pick and roll player. He understands the game at such a high level. Look at Zubots and what he was doing this year for the Clippers and then you can keep going down Serge Ibaka, you can keep going down the list of just bigs that have thrived alongside James Harden. So if you’re Evan Mobley and the way that you were used at the beginning of the season and the first half of the season maybe wasn’t what made you the most comfortable and maybe wasn’t what your game was ready for at this point. Now you have somebody that allows you to kind of take a step back, not be as involved, not be as much the initiator, the creator and the finisher. You’ve got somebody who’s going to create better looks for you, get you easier shots, maybe give you more space within the offense so that you can go on these one on one situations. You’re probably going to be a playmaker in four on three situations because teams are going to send two at James Harden, teams are going to send two at Donovan Mitchell. So if you’re the one that’s setting that screen, you’re going to be the outlet. Then all of a sudden you become the decision maker. You can tap into some of that passing. So I do think there’s definitely a place for Evan within this offense and I think it’s a place that that suits his skill set right now better than how he was used at the beginning of the year. And I think he can thrive as a third option offensively.
Ethan Sands: I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. I think his passing acumen has grown tremendously, especially in the half roll and being able to create from the elbow or free throw line extended is definitely an area where I think Evan Mobley has become more comfortable. And if he’s not, that two man game between Donovan Mitchell and Jalen Tyson is still there on the back burner for the Cavs to use whenever they need it. But let’s get to the final question from tonight’s podcast and it comes from Anu from San Francisco. He says, do you guys think the Cavs can get to 50 wins? They have the most games against tanking teams for the rest of the season. Do you believe that 70 seeding matters when considering either first or second round matchups? So just to get my takeoff really quickly, I predicted the Cavs. Obviously we mentioned they have 27 games left. I think they win at least 20 of those games, which puts them at 54 wins this season. I think they could get up to 56 wins this season, but that also relies on the health of the team and all these things that we can not predict. But when it comes to seeding, obviously we learned last year it might not necessarily matter, but I do think that the Cavs would love to be at home as much as possible. So first or second seeding is definitely the goal for the Cavs, especially with how close and how tight the Eastern Conference is and the opportunities that they could have coming up to jump seeds as well. I think it’s important to note that this team is only looking to rise and be playing its best basketball. Obviously with 27 games left, there’s not a lot of room to figure out if you have a lull. So you have to continue to make strides going upwards. And that’s what we talked about earlier, about how Kenny Atkinson reviewing film during the All Star break, maybe having some film sessions here or there. I know he was sending text messages over the offseason at late hours into the evening. Maybe he’s doing that again during the break. But we’ll have to wait and see how the Cavs become more acclimated with one another and what they’re willing to do to get there. But yes, I do think that the Cavs can get the 50 wins and I expect them to exceed that margin as well.
Chris Fedor: If we were having this conversation about three weeks ago as the Cavs were toiling in mediocrity and they were just in the play in picture, we would have said that their goal and their stated goal was to get into the top four. Kenny Atkinson said that over and over and over again. While they’re there now, they’re already in the top four. Now it’s about okay, how much can we climb the ladder in the Eastern conference. And when you trade for somebody like James Harden and you make the deals that you do for Dennis Schroeder and Keon Ellis, you have to reset your expectations and you have to reset your goals. I don’t think the Cavs are saying to themselves, we need the number one seed or we can’t get to the NBA Finals. But I always think you want to dangle some kind of carrot in front of guys to motivate them and have them chase something. And I think number one’s attainable. I do. Detroit’s been great and they deserve a ton of credit and they play super hard and they’re not just going to collapse. But for the next three, three to six games, they’re going to be without two big time rotational pieces. They have a much more difficult schedule in the second half of the season, and the CAVs have the third easiest schedule of any team. And that’s before you even factor in. What are these teams going to look like? Who are they going to be playing at the end of the season when they play against Indiana? What version of the Pacers is that going to be when they go on the road to Salt Lake City? Who are the Jazz actually going to be playing that night? The Brooklyn Nets. What version of the Brooklyn Nets are you going to get? So they do have these potential tanking teams on the schedule, and that doesn’t even account for the fact that it’s already the third easiest schedule of any team in the NBA. And we’ve seen just how much they have played better in this stretch, especially with James Harden, how their offense has returned to the level where that we got accustomed to last year, where they were setting records for efficiency. So I think they’re in, you know, Evan Mobley is going to be back healthy and Dean Wade is going to be back in the lineup. And at some point you would think that Max Strus is also going to be back. Now there’s probably going to be some rest nights mixed in in the second half of the season for James Harden, for Donovan Mitchell, for Jalen Tyson, for some of their other key contributors, because they want to be in the best position mentally and physically going into the playoffs. And they’re not going to get into a situation where all of a sudden they start abandoning long term goals for short term. And they’re not going to get into a situation where they’re going to chase wins just because the one seed may be more within their reach. I think they’re still going to keep the big picture, but of course, if you have an opportunity to be the number one seed and get Game seven in Cleveland instead of Boston, you’re going to have an advantage there. If you have an opportunity to get Game 7 in Cleveland instead of New York, you’re going to have an advantage there. And I think people around the NBA have to understand that. Last year in the NBA Finals, part of the reason why Oklahoma City won is because Tyrese Halliburton ruptured his Achilles. But the other reason that they won is because Game 7 was there in OKC as opposed to in Indiana, and that gave OKC a level of comfort. Now, given the roster that the CAVs currently have versus the one that they previously had, game seven probably would have mattered more with a younger, more inexperienced team that needed all the help they could possibly get. Could I see Donovan Mitchell, James Harden and this group going on the road and winning a Game 7 against Boston, against New York, against Detroit? I can see that more than what I could have seen about three weeks ago. But I just don’t think they need to get into a situation where they’re chasing a seed and they’re abandoning some of their more important long term goals in order to do that. But I do think there’s a pathway to them getting there. And if it’s not one, they certainly have a chance at number two. Because I do think some of these other teams that have the tougher schedules are going to start coming back to them and they’re going to get closer.
Jimmy Watkins: NBA teams. This is from a story I wrote last year. So this is before last year’s playoffs. NBA teams and home game sevens are 112 and 39. Or at least they were before last year’s playoffs. Like that can’t be overstated. It also, it also can’t be overstated that there’s a pretty clear line of demarcation after Knicks, Celtics, Pistons, Caps. Like I know the Raptors have given Cavs some tricky matchups in the regular season at times, but like I promise you, if you get a chance to play that team instead of one of these other top three, that or whoever ends up being. That’s just the idea that you only have to play one of those top three would be very nice. I mean, now we’ve been fooled here before because again, last year the cat that was supposed to be one of the biggest selling points of the Cavs in the one seed last year cases ended up being juggernaut..
Jimmy Watkins: Oops Happens. But I do think getting the one seed matters. I do also think to Chris’s point about Detroit, not only are they going to be without their players, not only is could that, you know, mess with their mojo a little bit if they stumble out of the gates here. I also just think that one of Detroit’s biggest advantages over the rest of the league this year has been like, we play super hard. We play harder than you. We don’t care whether it’s the dog days or not. Like, we’re bringing, we’re bringing game seven intensity 247 all the time. And that gap closes a little bit when you’re playing serious teams. As we get later in the season, teams who are playing for, you know, who have regular season stakes. If you have teams like the Cavs, like Pistons are going to play the Cabs a couple times coming up here and the Cavs are going to be pretty serious about that because they’ve got some ground to make up. Right. And they’re not the only team that, that’s like that. Um, so, yeah, I mean, I think they’ll blow past 50 wins. I think 55 is on the table, particularly given all the tanking teams. They’re going to see their offense, their offense, we’re going to be like, it’s going to, they’re going to be moments where it feels like last year. Their offense is going to overwhelm a lot of teams I think on their schedule and it’s just going to be like there, there are going to be moments like we had LA last night at the Wizards gamers like, oh, this is over five minutes. A five minute stretch of, of threes and dunks just ended this game. It’s, it’s a wrap now. We’re, we’re, I think we’re back to that with this, with this Cavs offense and it’s going to be super fun. They’re going to be an awesome watch second half this year because they’re going to be on a mission and they have a lot of weapons.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And I think that is a good encapsulation of where the Cavs stand at this point in the season heading into the All Star break. So with all, all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Want to hear your questions or get a shout out on next week’s hey Chris episode? This is the only way to do so. So sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.