CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins unpack whether the traditional table-setting point guard has been replaced by scoring guards and positionless initiators? And if so, what does that mean for the next generation?

Takeaways:

1. Chris Paul’s Legacy as the “Last True Point Guard”

Chris Paul is framed as the “last true point guard,” a dying archetype in a league that now favors high-volume, score-first guards. Dubbed the “Point God,” Paul’s career was defined by his pass-first mentality, prioritizing setting up teammates and controlling the game’s tempo over his own scoring, even though he was a highly capable scorer who could take over when necessary. This unselfish approach is presented as the heart of his on-court identity. The hosts contrast his style with that of modern guards who are now expected to score 25-30 points per night, highlighting Paul as a “connector between eras” who represents a more traditional, position-defined style of play that has been largely phased out.

2. A “Perfectly Imperfect” End to His Career

The guys analyze the unceremonious conclusion to Chris Paul’s career, in which he was essentially pushed into retirement by the Los Angeles Clippers after disagreements over his veteran role. While acknowledged as sad, it is also argued that this ending is “kind of perfect” because it aligns with his career narrative. A key part of Paul’s legacy is his on-court personality as a “pest” and an “irritant” with intense competitiveness that sometimes bothered teammates, even contributing to the breakup of the “Lob City” Clippers. Ending his career by being dismissed for being too vocal is seen as a mirror of the very drive and passion that defined him as a player.

3. A First-Ballot Hall of Famer, Despite No Championship

Despite never winning an NBA championship, Chris Paul’s career is definitively described as first-ballot Hall of Fame worthy. His impressive resume includes ranking third all-time in both assists and steals, nine All-Defensive Team selections, eleven All-NBA selections, and twelve All-Star appearances. The speakers acknowledge the lack of a ring as the “glaring hole” on his resume but contend that he was a proven winner who consistently elevated his teams. He was the driving force behind the Phoenix Suns’ run to the NBA Finals and a key part of the Houston Rockets team that nearly defeated the dominant Kevin Durant-era Warriors, cementing his status as a pivotal player of his generation.

4. The Evolving NBA and the End of an Era

The discussion uses Chris Paul’s retirement to highlight a significant shift in the NBA’s positional landscape. The era of the pure, pass-first “floor general” is fading, replaced by a demand for high-scoring primary ball handlers who can create for themselves first. The league has evolved to a point where if a guard is capable of scoring 30 points, they are expected to do so, a stark contrast to Paul’s typical stat line of 18 points and 12 assists. This evolution signifies a broader move towards a “positionless” game where traditional roles are blurred, making specialized, orchestrating playmakers like Paul a nostalgic symbol of a past era.

5. Potential NBA Expansion and the Cavaliers’ Roster Decisions

The conversation shifts to the likelihood of NBA expansion, with Las Vegas and Seattle identified as front-running cities. An expansion would force existing teams to protect only eight players, creating a challenging strategic exercise for the Cleveland Cavaliers. The hosts identify a core group of “locks” for protection, including Donovan Mitchell, James Harden, Evan Mobley, and Jarrett Allen. The final spots create a dilemma, requiring the team to weigh current contributors against cost-controlled assets with future potential. Players like Sam Merrill, for his “indispensable” shooting, and Dean Wade, for his crucial wing defense, are debated for inclusion alongside developmental prospects who offer long-term upside.

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Transcript

NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.

Ethan Sands: What up Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist and yes, this is a Cavs centric podcast and, and we want to get you all the information you could ever desire when it comes to the Cleveland Cavaliers. But sometimes there’s conversations that need to be had that are just bigger than Cleveland and bigger than basketball. Chris Paul, a legend in the game, announced his retirement today. I wanted to go through memory lane a little bit with Jimmy Watkins because this is a player who, who not only impacted players around him, the younger generation. To me, he created an era of basketball that reinvigorated how fun it was to watch the game. Lob City Clippers, whether you loved them, whether you hated them, whether you were on the other end of their dunks, they were an ecstatic bunch. Jimmy, what do you think, what do you make of how Chris Paul’s career had to come to an end and the memories that he left along the way?

Jimmy Watkins: Chris Paul is going to be one of those. You had to be there. Guys, let’s do the career retrospective real quick here. 36th all time in scoring, second all time in assists and steals. Very important. Chris Paul, 6 foot, was a 9 time all defense guy. 11 time all NBA, 6 time steel champ. Don’t really do steel Champlain scoring champs, but led the league in steel six times. Led the league and assists five times. All Star team 12 times. You can make an argument. I think it might be one of the Kobe MVPs that people say Chris Paul should have won. I think it was during one of his warrantes years I think. But the dude is a no doubt hall of hall of Famer. First ballot. Even if the basketball hall of Fame was as selective as other hall of Fames. Boy, I wish it was. Chris Paul would be an absolute lock for the hall of Fame. The glaring hole on his resume obviously is no championships, only one finals appearance with the Phoenix Suns. His Clippers team, as fun as they were to watch, were kind of like the face of not quite over the hump. It was during a loaded Western Conference era. Not quite the fairest way to evaluate Chris Paul’s career. He was doing battles with Giants a lot of times, literally and figuratively. Never got the ring. But I’m, I am going to be. As long as I am on this earth, Chris Paul will have one, at least one legacy protector because he is to, to me, the last face of a dying archetype. He’s the last true point guard, obviously we call him the point God. He is the guy who runs a team and has a pulse of all of his teammates, how they’re feeling, who needs to get in touch when all of these sort of dying practices of point guard play. Right now. It’s like, it’s not necessarily a bad thing that this thing is or a negative trend in the league that this, that this type of player is sort of being phased out. It’s more just like a result of how skilled everyone is. Now. If you’re a primary ball handler these days, you’re capable of getting 30 and you’re probably getting 22, 25 a night. And there’s just not as many players focused on setting the table the way Chris Paul would. I think Darius Garland is kind of like one of the, I don’t know, basketball descendants of Chris Paul. I feel like he had a little bit of this in him. Obviously not quite the defensive player that Chris Paul was, but there was a little bit of like, reluctance to Darius Garland scoring out. There was like, okay, fine, I’ll go on a personal 12, 0 run, you know what I mean? And Chris Paul, that’s. That to me was his defining characteristic. The way he would get his team through a game. And it’s like, okay, there’s six minutes left and I need to control, I need to decide every possession now. Okay, fine, fine, I’ll start mid ranging you to death from the elbow. I’ll start driving basket and score one of the best little guy finishers of all time. He’s not quite this, like, doesn’t have the style or flair that Kyrie Irving did, but boy, he got it done. He put that ball in the basket. There was only a handful of years where he averaged 20 points a game. But I promise you, I promise you he could have. Chris Paul was a guy who could get any shot he wanted, but prioritized setting up his teammates and get. And getting the team headed in the right direction. And I think that’s really cool. I think that’s like kind of the heart and spirit of basketball. That’s like, that’s the. If you’ve read the Bill Simmons book of Basketball book, that’s like the quote unquote secret that he learns right at the end of the book is like, it’s all about how unselfish you can be. That’s, that’s the name of the game in this sport. And I think Chris Paul is the perfect embodiment of that. I’ve seen people complaining about like, oh, The Clippers, the unceremonious ending is so much worse now. They basically bullied him into retirement. Two things on that one, it always ends poorly. We talked about this with LeBron. Not always. Most of the time it ends poorly no matter how good you are. Like, sometimes these guys are the last guys to realize they just don’t have it anymore. It’s really, really hard. I just wrote like a thousand words a couple of weeks ago about how hard it is for all time great players to stick their landing. It almost never happens. Chris Paul probably stayed a season too long. He probably was a little bit too vocal with the Clippers when he compared to his role. Right? Like he’s thinking, I’m Chris Paul. They’re thinking, you’re like our 10th man. Please shut up. And kind of spiritually, I again, you want to see Chris Paul get a retirement tour and like right off in the sunset with a championship or whatever. But it’s kind of perfect the way it ended for Chris Paul because another, another part of Chris Paul’s legacy is that this dude was a pest. He was an irritant. He had a Kobe Bryant like personality. So some teammates didn’t like him. Like the Lob City era, Clippers kind of broke up because Chris Paul wasn’t able. Like, that’s part of the reason why it happened. And so for this guy, the last thing that Chris Paul ever did in the NBA is getting kicked off a team because he was making suggestions about defensive rotations as like the 10th man on team. I’m sorry. That’s kind of perfect. That’s kind of perfect. That’s a defining part of, of who he was as a basketball player. He cared so much that it bothered people. He cared so much that it bothered people. And it’s not, it’s not the dismount you’re looking for on a career, but it does fit his nar. His career narrative in a certain way.

Ethan Sands: It’s still sad, like to see it go out like this, that is still sad. Every time I think about, oh my God, he’s going to get a retirement tour. He tried to set it up before the season. This could be his last year. He’s going to retire as a Clipper. It felt like it was set up perfectly and then he takes it a little bit too far. He tries to do a little bit too much. And the Clippers then byproduct of this, not only dumping him, but then say, hey, James Harden, we don’t need you either. We’re trying to get younger. We don’t need 36 plus year old guys on this roster. Kawhi’s not getting any younger. Let’s start building around something more youthful. And that’s where Darius Garland comes into play in that conversation as well. And I do think it’s funny and interesting when it comes to the James Harden, the Darius Garland, the Chris Paul’s of the world. And you talk about a descendant of Chris Paul, like obviously James Harden is one of the best scoring point guards to walk this earth, but he also is one of the best passers. And I think that’s the duality that this league is starting to come to is you need to be able to facilitate another portion of this. LeBron James had a triple double at 41 years old last night because he is a pass first guy. Maybe that’s just an end of an era that we’re coming up on, right. The end of the pure passing, point forwards, point guards, whatever you want to call them. This is emotionally drawing because of how long we’ve gotten to watch Chris Paul, what he’s meant to the younger generation. And you mentioned it, Jimmy, like back when he was on the New Orleans Hornets, that was a time like that was when this guy was one of the best point guards in the league. There was arguments that he was the best point guard in the league, he.

Jimmy Watkins: Was the best point guard in the league, he was the best point guard in the league.

Ethan Sands: And there you have it. It’s just a long time coming. Never want to see a guy go out not on his own terms. But I do think there is some merit to what Jimmy’s saying, even though it might come off a little bit crazy.

Jimmy Watkins: I’m glad you brought up a point about again about the dying of the true point guard. Right. I want to take another stab at that because I don’t think I articulated it very well that last segment. What I’m saying is today, in today’s NBA, we have realized, correctly that if you can go get 25, go get 25. Damian Lillard, Darius Garland, Tyrese Maxey, these kinds of guards, those are guys who, you know 20 years ago when they came in the league, when Chris Paul came in the league, they would be asked to do different things. Now they’re so skilled, they’re so good, the game has advanced so far that it’s just like, oh, you can get 30, go do it then. Like we’d much rather have you get 30 and 5. We’re just as happy, I should say not, not really a preference. We’re just as Happy with you getting 30 and 5 than we would be you getting 18 and 12, which was more Chris Paul’s lane. Right. But I do. I do just think that there’s something artsy. And Chris Paul’s like a basketball renaissance era guy. He just takes you back to like a. When we had more defined positions, and it’s. It’s again, an advancement of the league that it is like the game has become more positionless and guys are more skilled and what’s a 2? What’s a 3 like? No, it’s guard, wing, big. Those are really the three positions at this point. But there’s just like. There’s like some security and like having more defined position, like football. Everyone knows what everyone’s job is, and I’m kind of fumbling at what it is here, but there’s something I’m trying to grasp onto that Chris Paul gives you. He’s like a connector between eras, and not just because he played so long. He. He’s just like a symbol of something that we don’t see as often anymore. And I think he was really cool.

Ethan Sands: Maybe that’s the allure to Chris Paul’s career. Right? Like, we don’t necessarily know what we want to grab onto, but there’s something there. Like, there was always a feeling that there was supposed to be more. He’s a part of the only trade that got vetoed by a commissioner because David Stern didn’t think Kobe Bryant and Chris Paul. Paul could play together because they would take over the league mentality wise. Right. Like, there are so many different avenues you can go with Chris Paul. And I think that is what the draw is for his career, how passionate people were to watch them play basketball, the musical element of it. I talk about this. I write about this all the time before he got traded. Like, Darius Garland looks like he’s a conductor of an orchestra when he’s playing, he plays. Musically, Chris Paul is a similar game play game style because, I mean, you see him do the little turnaround, fade away at 6 foot 1 over 6 foot 7 guys, and you’re like, how did you get to that spot? How did you get that off? And why did it look so pretty when you were doing it? Because it all just looks like it flows seamlessly. And I think when he stopped playing like that and it became more methodical, you could see that his career was starting to wane. And I think obviously he was getting older. But as Jimmy has mentioned on this podcast before, athletes are usually the last people to recognize when they have Lost a step when they have taken a step back. And I think we’re trying to start seeing players. Maybe James Harden is the new usher of this era. That loyalty is not given to anybody by the business of the NBA, by players, all these other things. And maybe you just need to go get your money when it’s on the table because you never know how long it’s going to be there.

Jimmy Watkins: As Chris Paul, legacy protector, we talk about the hole in his resume being the playoff success, right? Chris Paul was a winner. I want that to be known. I want that to be known. He played in 149 career playoff games. I was frantically just trying to look up where that ranks all time. I got to Ray Allen’s 25th with like 170. Chris Paul’s up there. Okay. I’m guessing top 50 in playoff games played of all time. You don’t get there without winning a lot of games. He won 76, he lost 73. A lot of the times his team was just kind of flirting with conference sponsors. And of course there’s. There’s failures all time failures that go up with that. Like the defining moments of Chris Paul’s career are the clippers blowing that 31 lead to the Rockets, which he was a part of. And he actually played pretty well in those games. History doesn’t care about that, but he did play pretty well in those games. And the Oklahoma City, I’m trying to remember which game was against the Thunder that the series with the Clippers where he turned the ball over a couple times at the end of a game and cost them. So those, those are on your record. You can’t take them away. But it’s also true that the best Houston Rockets team since this side of Hakeem Olajuwon era, probably the second best group ever was the James Harden, Chris Paul duo. That’s the only team that ever really pushed the Kevin Durant, Steph Curry era Warriors to the brink, which, and that is, for my money, the greatest basketball team ever assembled. Like, literally, we changed the cap rules as a result of that team. It was not fair. And James Harden and Chris Paul should have beat those dudes again. You blew it. You missed a bunch of threes in game seven. This is part of your legacy for both of you guys. But you got to that point. That stuff matters too. There’s a James Harden corollary in there. Like, James Harden has been in position to have some of these ugly playoff moments. He’s gotten there and he has always been the engine that leads those teams there. So I want to be fair about that as well. Chris Paul is a winner. The Phoenix Suns team that made the Finals, Devin Booker was their leading scorer. Chris Paul was the main reason that that team changed its fortunes. Okay? Deandre Ayton has never looked anything like he looked in that playoff run since that playoff run. And that’s Chris Paul. Chris Paul, all time pick and roll partner. All time elevator of Biggs. We talked about yesterday. Chris was saying Clint Capella owes his career to James Harden. DeAndre Jordan owes his career to Chris Paul. He’s a better version of Clint Capella. But Chris Paul made that dude. He made Lob City. Him and Play Griffin work perfect together. Sad they didn’t get more deeper playoff runs. And it’s an indictment on Chris Paul again. But Chris Paul is a winner even though he didn’t win.

Ethan Sands: One of my favorite, like, little antidotes from that era of Lob City was Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan having to tell Chris Paul to throw the ball a little less accurately to the rim so they could put more umph on their Ducks. They were like, hey, you’re literally putting it for us to just put it in the basket. We want to do some stuff with it, so just throw that giant and we’ll figure it out from there. Okay? Jimmy, the last thing that I wanted to talk to you about very briefly, because we’re talking about the end of an era, and we talk about the end of an era. The change of an era in Cleveland. The NBA could also be changing eras as well as there could be an NBA expansion draft coming soon with two teams as the favorites, Las Vegas and Seattle. We talk about the history of teams, right? The Seattle SuperSonics could be coming back and the OKC Thunder could still exist. I think that is phenomenal. Obviously, Las Vegas is a powerhouse for a city that can take over an entire nation when it comes to basketball. Obviously the Las Vegas Aces are one of the best teams in the wnba. Jimmy, there’s a little caveat to this NBA expansion draft, though, and I want to get your thoughts on it. But I also want to know that each team can only protect eight players. If you had to protect eight players who were going to be here for the next two years for this team, who are you protecting and what do you think about this expansion and is it needed for the NBA?

Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, this is really. I found this to be a difficult exercise. I mean, you have the locks, right? I think your locks are Donovan, James Harden, Evan Mobley, Jared Allen, and Jalen Tyson. Right. I have five locks. After that, you have to factor in contract, contract length, the future for examp. So for example, I think a lot of people would just look at this exercise or some people, I should say, I don’t know how. Or just people, I don’t know how other people think. I think it’s. You can look at this exercise as, okay, who are the eight best players? I think you have to project a little bit more. So I ended up with guys like Naquan Tomlin because here and now. And he’s, he’s a, a cost effective, team controlled asset that. Who knows? As we discussed when he, when we were talking about him getting converted to a standard deal because he has so little basketball background on him because he’s still so new to this. Like, I’m just more open to him being able to improve some of the skills that, that he’s working on right now than I am other guys this point because the consensus thinking in basketball circles is like, all right, you kind of are who you are by 25. Like after that you can, you can improve, you can make tweaks here and there. But like very rarely do we see completely different players after that point. But with, with guys like Naquan who’ve not put as much time into this, I want, I’m more curious on what you can do when you put more time into it. So I got him. I have Tyrus Proctor question mark. Like, I don’t know. They spend it. They, they clearly really like him. They think that he can be like a future backup point guard in the league. Yeah. Sam Merrill has to be on this list. Team controlled, cost effective player has frankly made himself indispensable. And then I wrote down Dean Wade with two question marks just because right now I don’t know who guards Wings, I don’t know who guards Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum and Cade Cunningham and players of that ilk. If you don’t have Dean Wade on your team, I just don’t know.

Ethan Sands: I’m in agreement with you there. Like, I think that’s a pretty decent list, especially projecting forward. You also just have to recognize who loves the game more. Who the Cavs want to be here obviously is clear cut, but who do they believe are going to want to stick around and put the work in to get where they want to go? I think it’s also a big thing. So, Jimmy, just to circle back to this question and finish out today’s podcast. If you could pick two cities to be an expansion franchise, do Las Vegas and Seattle come to mind for you? And if not, where you going?

Jimmy Watkins: Oh, geez. I think Seattle has to be on there because, frankly, the Thunder stole their team and I hate it. And the supersonics were a proud franchise. That city loves basketball. They have cool uniforms. They have great history. Gary Payton, Sean Kemp, the teams from the 70s, Nate McMillan, like Rashard Lewis era. Sonics, like, cool. Just cool teams, cool uniform. It’s right there. Built in Vegas as a sports city, it’s kind of an ongoing experiment, man. Owners put teams there, leagues put teams there because they know there’s going to be money. They know there’s a lot of stuff to do. It’s like you want to be associated with Las Vegas. Although tourism is super down there. There’s. That’s also the. Another hidden element, like, of this now is like, Vegas is now a place where people, like, live and. And have, like, normal communities. My aunt lives in Vegas, have visited a thousand times. It’s amazing. You drive 10 minutes away from the Strip, how normal it is. It’s just Arizona with a bunch of strip clubs when you get away from the Strip. Right. So I think that these leagues are also betting on, like, those communities care about sports the same way other. Other communities care about sports. And Vegas is a lot of transplants. So I have questions about that strategy, because if you’re a transplant, you care about sports, then I would presume you have your ties to wherever you came from and their sports and their sports teams. But. But they’re trying. My aunt cares about the Raiders. I didn’t see that one coming. I didn’t see that one coming. That’s. I feel for her, too, because they’re terrible. They’re about to get Fernanda Mendoza. We’ll see. Beyond that, though. I. I don’t know, man. I. I think we. I honestly haven’t given it a ton of thought because it’s just so. Feels so predetermined that it’s Vegas and Seattle. So I have many more thoughts about those cities in particular than I do. I’m trying to think on the top of my head here of a different city. I don’t know. What are you thinking about that, Ethan? Let’s play a pitch. A city.

Ethan Sands: You have to think of market. You have to think of what’s around it. And I think that’s why Las Vegas and Seattle work so well, especially Seattle, because, you know, there’s already going to be some sort of connection from a fan base already. And then Las Vegas Aces fans are just going to matriculate to whatever Las Vegas team is there as well. So when we’re talking about a new team, I’m thinking Nashville maybe like that. That’s a city that I think could just easily connect with other teams. Obviously they have college sports there and all these other things. The other thing is, do you give Virginia a team because you have D.C. not everybody from D.C. wants to claim the Washington Wizards, obviously, because they’ve been historically bad. You can give Baltimore a team. Florida has three different teams. Obviously it’s a huge state, so you don’t have to necessarily go out of state to create a new organization or anything. Obviously Seattle and OKC are right next door. But yeah, so this is a conversation that we can expand on and circle back to. But I think for right now we can put a pin in this and see where the conversations go, especially when NBA Board of Governors conversations heat up. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wand and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com casual and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through some text. Y’ all be safe. We out.