EP. 422 – ’24 Center Grades – Orlando Magic Podcast

EP. 422 – ’24 Center Grades – Orlando Magic Podcast

this is the sixthman show an Orlando Magic podcast with your hosts Luke Sylvia and Jonathan Osborne covering all things Magic Basketball by fans for fans go [Music] magic what’s going on Orlando Magic fans you guys are back with the six-man show today is May 27th 2024 Jonathan Osborne here join by Kevin Tucker Kevin how are we doing you know Jonathan doing great glad to be here glad to be hanging out with you and also getting to chat you know with our friends here listening or tuning on on on YouTube for the first time since the end of the season for us so I’m glad to get to hang out with you we’ll talk some centers of course give them some grades in this episode and talk about all kinds of other fun stuff but glad to be here and today we are remembering those who gave their lives for our country is uh you know we observe uh it feels weird to say celebrate so observe sounds more appropriate Memorial day but obviously we know there’s going to be you know people getting together and and cooking out and all that kind of stuff so hope you guys have a a great Memorial Day and and uh you know celebrate safely yeah we’re going to talk about centers a little bit we talked about guards on the last episode went through talked about the that whole group’s performance uh you know gave them some grades and and which we’ll do a little bit later in the show but we have a a big announcement and um this one not as sad as the last one so so I I think this one is uh is definitely more exciting although you know we’re we’re still sad about the the last announcement you know Luke leaving the show but uh Kevin and I we took a couple of weeks after you know the end of the season um obviously Luke gave us the the news you know about a month before the the season ended I think that he was most likely going to be stepping away from the show and Kevin and I both agreed like hey let’s just get through the rest of the season we have some big games coming up then we have a playoff run we can think about all that stuff sort of after the fact so we took we had a good conversation at the end of the season just like laying out what all of our options were moving forward we took a couple of weeks um and uh yeah we came to the conclusion I happy to announce that Kevin Tucker is going to be stepping in uh you know in a in a few weeks here as the full-time co-host of the six man show pretty crazy it’s kind of wild it’s obviously Bittersweet obviously we’re going to Luke wish wish Luke wasn’t you know leaving but obviously he has great reasons for doing so and I we both respect him a lot for for those and if you’re like what the heck are these guys talking about go back and watch that episode um but yeah so but the sweet part is I’m excited you know obviously been around the show here coming up on three it’s been over three years now we’re past three years so I’ve been hanging out with you and Luke for that whole time and it’s been awesome and looking forward to keeping the do it you know just in a different role now going forward it’s really exciting yeah I think for everybody body involved we just agreed that this was the most natural like you know Evolution I guess you would say and it it’s just really what made the most sense so um Kevin do you want to talk about a little bit about the postgame live I know we want to talk about the postgame live but do you want to just update people on what that might look like moving forward sure yeah we’re we don’t have a full clear picture of what exactly that’ll look like um obviously if you’re if you’re not familiar with that or maybe you’re new maybe just hung out with us in the playoffs you know we we started this last season the brand new live postgame show after each and every Magic game so we did four preseason 81 regular season seven playoffs that’s four plus 81 is 8 92 we did 92 postgame live shows on YouTube which is ridiculous U and so I was primarily the host of that you know last season I think you and Luke combined for you know eight or 10 or something like that and so outside of that you know I did over 80 of them which was amazing it was awesome I’m so glad I got to do that that’s not going away we’re still going to do it next year we’re excited about it that you know proved you know more popular than we ever could have imagined which I was going to talk about this later but I’ll talk about it now like when we sat down and talked about what a live postgame show could look like I was like it’ll be cool if we have like you know 50 people hanging out with us after the games and just blew that completely out of the water all season long you guys are crazy so thank you so much for being around and supporting that I’m just here to tell you it’s not going anywhere uh we’re going to do it again next year I might not no I definitely will not be doing 80 something of them next year you know with hosting this show and doing that it would just be a lot but still G to try to do the majority of them we’re you know maybe talking with some other people uh to maybe fill in some of the other shows and become kind of regular hosts of that show too and so lots of things we’ll fill you in on later as we you know kind of you know figure it out ourselves but yeah post game show is not going anywhere but also glad to be hanging out with you here on the six-man show going forward yeah just to clarify we are still going to be doing the postgame live after every game Kevin just saying he won’t be the one doing you know 70 80 plus of those he going to be doing still the the the big majority but you know supplementing with you know myself and and potentially some other folks as well so as we figure that out uh we’ll pass all of that you know along and and we’re super excited about that um but but yeah Kevin I I know obviously you know talking about the the postgame live and how great that was this season but we really haven’t gotten your thoughts um in a in a few weeks just since the season has ended and just uh there there’s a lot a great regular season you know was the 35th Anniversary super special team but then you go on you know the little bit of a playoff run that they had and big seven game series and sort of where are you at now with all of that yeah I mean first off I the the last postgame live show was kind of kind of crazy like we it was on Wall Street we just had the watch party the game seven watch party and everyone was leaving dejected and at the same time as I was going live on YouTube Wall Street was getting away for their Cinco Deo celebration so there was like this band setting up around me and it was loud and chaotic and so it was like a super short like 15 minute our shortest show all season 15minute show so I never felt like I really got to like put closure on the season not just for you know the postgame live viewers but for myself honestly you know being you know having a platform like this and so I think ultimately for me it was just it’s not going to be anything revolutionary anything that you guys haven’t said or people haven’t said on Twitter or whatever but everything but like wow like what a I mean what a cool ride we got to go on this year and especially now like we’re three weeks removed from the end of the season and it’s just like first off again amazing Ride second off I’m like I I can’t imagine being a fan of the teams that are still going like as exhausting as those two weeks were going seven games thinking about like okay that happened for you know the Pacers and Knicks for example then they turned around did a seven game series in the second round and now the Pacers are holding on for dear life against the Celtics it’s like the mental and emotional toll of that it’s just like I’m glad we’re easing into this you know we did the first round this year let’s do the second round maybe Eastern Conference Finals next year and then then we’ll figure that out but all in all just what a season I’m just so proud of obviously the team but I’m I’m so proud of this fan base honestly like you and I and and the other die hards out there like we have just been longing for a special this this fan base to show how special it is and I think you know in the buildup to the playoffs and then especially the playoffs it was it was just amazing like anyone that was was in that building NOS like that atmosphere was like it was addicting like I’m ready for more like I want it now you know it was so much fun and electric and yeah it just it just again solidifies what we all believe through the regular season like this is just the beginning like I genuinely believe that with all my heart as much as I’ve believed in just about anything like that this is just the beginning of something really really special and so to be here on the ground floor with the real magic Maniacs the die hards that have been here since day one we We’ll add a bunch of other magic fans over the years but this crew that we’ve got now it’s just really cool to to experience that with them so anyway really special season looking forward to some offseason stuff but I’m just excited to do it all again next year yeah we had our monthly Patron Zoom with some of our Hall of Fame and Elite tier patrons this past week and we just got to talk with them about hey what are your favorite moments from this past season and sure there was some talk about like oh remember this game remember that game but overwhelmingly like everybody shared that that exact same sentiment just about you know this was a super exciting season but I was really sad to see it end because of how likable these guys were and how close they were and just how special the season was so every magic fan that you talk to is echoing that sentiment of just how special a year it was and and I know everybody appreciates it a ton but good to hear your thoughts on that Kevin and uh we we talked about this a little bit with uh with Luke you know announcing the fact that he’s going to be leaving the show and how he’s going to be sticking around for you know the the next several weeks uh do you want to talk a little bit about that and sort of what our transition is going to look like sure yeah so some people have mentioned it’s a maybe a little odd that Luke you know mentioned that he’s leaving but he’s still here until we put a question mark on the end um basically um I asked Luke to do us a little bit of favor so when he told us in April he’s going to be leaving at the end of this the season uh you know I kind of I actually talked with you guys about this a long time ago but uh I found up in April I’m getting ready to have open heart surgery in June which is kind of crazy and so I was like Luke can you just hang out until I get through that surgery and get through some of the recovery time and then I’ll join you know full-time doing this show but yeah so uh I was born with basically a defective valve in my heart so I’ve known about this my whole life and I’ve been able to you know avoid this surgery for the last 32 years of my life but now it’s time um and so yeah I’ll be having that surgery sometime I don’t have a date yet but like mid June um so yeah they’ll do the whole thing uh if you know what open heart surgery looks like it’s uh I’ll spare you the details but uh it’s not for the faint of heart they’ll you know well I’ll give you some details you know that’s where they like they they saw your your your sternum and they they rip open your rib cage and work on your heart they stop your heart you put you on a machine and you know work on your heart and all that kind of stuff and so they’ll do all that yeah it’s it’s an intense recovery I mean I’ll be out of work for eight weeks um I can’t drive for four weeks like it’s it’s a thing it’s kind of crazy to think about but yeah so that’ll be in mid June and so hopefully a couple weeks after that I’ll be at least coherent enough to get on a laptop and talk with you guys about some Magic Basketball so that’s kind of the why behind this transition being the timing being what it is and so it’s a little odd a little bit uh different than what you typically see but again very grateful for Luke to stick around for through this but yeah once I get through that and I I’ll be back fulltime and and that’ll be that yeah Kevin told us about this I think over the course of the last you know year or so you know you’ve mentioned it a few times and we knew we were getting closer to this and you know we’re obviously super grateful that Luke is is willing to do this which like first of all Kevin’s health is way more important than talking about the magic or the podcast or whatever so if I had to do the Pod by myself for a few weeks like you know that’s nothing in comparison to what this dude is about to undergo I I just asked like our listeners over the course of the next few weeks just keep Kevin in your your thoughts and your prayers what he’s undergoing is my understanding it is fairly routine uh for the the surgeons at least but you know for a a person going into that it’s a it’s a it’s a big undertaking it’s a it’s a scary thing and I know the the recovery is is is pretty brutal from from what I understand so um yeah just you know Positive Vibes thoughts you know if if you are a prayer you know keep uh Kevin in your prayers and um you know on Kevin’s behalf he is is reluctant to to do some things himself um but I’ll be you know putting some stuff out there CU he’s going to be out of work you know for a few weeks and um if anybody out there you know can help uh you know financially um you know help his his family out during that time we would really appreciate that so I’ll share more information on that you know in the in the coming weeks and um obviously we don’t want anybody to feel compelled to you know help with that um obviously but um if you’re able to and willing I know uh him and his family would really really appreciate that and um as all of that unfolds you know we’ll be share to be sure to uh to share uh updates on Kevin just let everybody know that obviously after the fact he’s doing okay and all that kind of stuff he’ll be just fine he’s gonna have the surgery he’s gonna be laid up playing college football you know 2025 for a few weeks there so yeah I’m excited I think he’s he’s gonna be just fine yeah first thank you Jonathan first off for all that it’s very kind of you um but yeah it’s I’m I’m honestly looking forward to it like I said I’ve had this Cloud over my head my entire life that I was going to have to have this so I’m excited to have it I’ve also been like it’s it’s it’s phys I I feel what is happening in my heart now like for 32 years I I I was able to limit myself physically to where I knew where my threshold was before it would bother me but now it’s to the point like my my numbers and everything on you know when they do The Echoes and stuff it’s in the severe category and I feel it now like I’m I’m fatigued like I’ve never been fatigued um it can it’s also messing with my brain which is kind of weird like I’m having mental lapses and forgetting things that because there’s not enough oxygen getting to my brain now it’s kind of crazy so it’s almost to the point where it’s like almost like okay can we do this now because I don’t know how much words it’s going to get but I’m fine I’m not like dying or anything um I mean technically if if I didn’t have the surgery I would die but that we’re not going to do that it’s it’s going to be fine so but anyway that’s kind of the deal all that to say I’m actually looking forward to having this done because apparently within that recovery time I will already feel a a significant difference is what I’ve been told as far as how like my my stamina and like I like feeling in my heart it’s kind of hard to explain but anyway I’m actually looking forward to it as weird as that sounds and I’m also just looking forward to getting it over with you know so but anyway thank you for that Jonathan and yeah thanks everybody for um for your support yeah GNA be just fine back here no time yeah if you’re looking forward to I’m looking forward to it I honestly am it’s weird I know but I am I’m ready to ready to do this awesome well speaking of financial support this is a different kind of financial support but I want to give a quick shout out to our patrons that help fin support the show uh each and every month uh a new Patron this week as a matter of fact that joined at our Hall of Fame tier shout out to mael canny again who joined at the hall of fame tier level and is already active in the Discord love that love seeing our patrons join the patreon but then like immediately get plugged into the Discord just an awesome Community with I think we have like almost 70 magic fans in that Discord chat who there’s not a ton of Magic Basketball to talk about right now but those conversations are happening on a daily basis and people are talking about the NBA Playoffs all that kind of good stuff so we give a special shout out to brand new patrons whenever we have them just like we just did to Mel canny and then we give a a special shout out to our Hall of Fame and Elite tier patrons each and every episode let’s go ahead and giv a special shout out to the court cousins Drew Gooden Armen Carson tulo Ellis Jonathan borgas normal magic player history Gabe gains Whiffle Michael Martin Jamal Miller Michael salop pong Donkey Punch Dave Pao and France’s warmth Pier a Dylan Mr Mikey danal Bobby Skinner goie 93 Teddy Sylvia Dak Lopez fuchsia Bill folon Edon lagone Jose esquin Kaya P cism time Miss TV ESPN really sucks gear 95 shred Junior Bruce half Rin shahan 177 BBY the dawn himo ban hro RM improv 221 rap arrana Magic Kid 714 mysterious Mosley Victor cologne Irish Magic Mike Austin lamp random hustle only France Maria Keith wall Fritz BR s Cas green Santi Leon K neckar the distract Amad simsa chantu Tom Gadson dead air Richard Tuttle Jeremiah Cano magic wire Debo 1980 magic Matt Michael Thompson Mama Richmond next Nappa what’s up playoffs 2024 Dylan Fay Sammy David Duffy Smith Sheiks Bueno times stano 1995 Suggs mugs Derek Smith Daniel Anderson Barry and mael canny again if you would like to join the patreon you can find us at patreon.com theix manow now Kevin last episode Luke and I went through the guards U seven of those guards and this week we’re going to talk or this episode rather we’re going to talk a little bit about the bigs talking about the centers we’re talking Mo Vagner goab bad Wendell Carter Jr if you missed the last episode you can go back listen to that if you want to hear our takes on all of the guards we’re going to give each one of these guys we’re going to talk about their performance and their numbers on the season individually and we’re going to give them a grade as well and this grade is sort of relative to what our expectations were of this player sort of heading into the season so obviously like you if a guy were to get an A+ it doesn’t mean he was an allstar MVP caliber type of guy just means that he severely exceeded our expectations heading into the season Kevin anything from like the guard grades that we talked about last week that maybe you thought we missed anything that you wanted to add or U do you just want to jump right into the bigs I mean when it comes to guards I I guess the only thing I would I would say was um I don’t know if okay I’ll go there when it comes to and this is such an insignificant thing because we have guards that are we’re much more important this season than him but one of the things that you and Luke and myself talked about before him was jet Howard and you guys mentioned you know him on the last episode but we were talking about in the group chat talking about you know should Jay Howard get great and I said absolutely you guys were like ah he didn’t really play and I was like but he was a first round draft pick and so that it was kind of interesting but the only thing I would say with that was I jet Howard for me is just such a he’s such a wild card right and I I just hope this year we get to see him Unleashed right and then maybe if he’s Unleashed we’ll see why he didn’t play you know maybe he wasn’t played for a reason because he wasn’t ready you is he ready this year I don’t know we’ll see uh this team needs some help as far as shot creation at the guard spot uh can jet Howard do that maybe maybe not I don’t know I know he’s a first- round pick for a reason so he’s obviously got the talent um but you know I don’t know he’s the only one that I think was kind of interesting you know we’ll see what happens there but with regards to cers I did want to say one thing before we talk about Wendell and Mo and and googa I just want to say thank you Jonathan thank you for being a wise Orlando Magic fan and not including Jonathan Isaac in the centers list list when I asked you today with centers it was it was kind of a test I was like is it is it Wendell Mo and googa and you’re like yeah and I was like good cuz here’s the thing we it’s funny cuz if you even if you asked me coming into the season and partway through the season I would have been like Jonathan Isaac and we’ll talk more about him with the forwards I get that but Jonathan Isaac was like yeah let’s throw him at Center let’s do it and I think against some teams it could work but against a Cleveland team very big you know Cleveland team it clearly did not work I I think it worked in stretches but for for an entire you know you know long stretch of a game or whatever maybe has more to do with his impact Off the Bench I think the center Jonathan I experiment might not go very far against certain teams maybe just obviously we’ll talk about him more specifically as a forward in the next episode but I don’t know if you want to share any thoughts you have about ji the center experiment all that kind of stuff before we talk about the true centers yeah I’m not out on ji as a center I just don’t I I don’t think of him right now as a center it was very much an experiment we saw it in spurts but we’re talking about like the last like two weeks of the Season yeah that that was a real thing I’m not going to take a a a month sample size of essentially you know two weeks of the regular season two weeks of the playoff series that we saw and really not even two weeks of of the playoffs like the first two games right we saw him really play significant minutes at the five so I like we’re going to get into this there are a lot of guys that just did not play anywhere near as well as they did in the regular season in the playoffs so I’m not going into this like oh this guy just couldn’t do this in the playoffs so he just absolutely can’t do it there’s a lot of guys that did things really well in the regular season that they couldn’t do it all in the post season so I’m not ready to sell all my ji Center stock just because at times we saw how effective a lineup could be with him playing at the five can he do it full-time I don’t know I I I think I still want to see a little bit more of it but that’s really my reasoning behind not thinking of him as a center in terms of like grading these guys for the year and let me just reiterate I think that was probably the worst possible matchup I think maybe in the entire NBA to have the Jonathan Isaac Center thing so again I’m not fully out on it but just glad he’s not going to be considered as a center for the sake of this conversation but anyway I guess we can kick off with with our centers now yeah let’s go ahead I think uh let’s start with Mo Vagner I want to leave the the probably the most interesting conversation for last so we’ll go Mo Goa Wendell heading into the season with Mo I I really was not sure what to expect with him obviously you know signing the two-year deal coming back was impactful you know at Ways last year um but was it going to be Goa you know as the the backup F like what was all that going to look like was it going to be ji as the backup five wasn’t really sure what to expect out of Mo Vagner for me I felt like he just took it to another another level this year um in really every way just like his his leadership which I know I’ve talked about a few times on the Pod and just sort of how grounded he is I just feel like he’s a a great locker room presence for this group and helps keep them levelheaded and brings a a level of perspective that the locker room might not have if he wasn’t a part of it um but just like you know offensively I felt like he was a little bit better defensively this year by no means is is he great I would still say he’s probably a net negative on that end but bringing the energy every single night being that agitator and in Wendell’s absence both he and goo baz the way that they stepped up uh when he was out so just just want to go through some of his numbers I mean the dude played in 80 games this year in the regular season that’s a massive deal in 17.7 minutes he averaged 10.9 points per game 4.3 rebounds 1.2 assists a half steal three blocks he shot 60% from the floor 33% from behind the arc 67% on twos and had a 63.6 effective field goal percentage shot 81% from the free throw line uh minutes were down this year but overall like his production was up he averaged 02 rebounds less than last year3 assists less than last year but overall I I just felt like we saw Mo vogner at his absolute best um I think the one thing that I would ask of him next year if he can just become a little bit better of a shooter from behind the arc and get to that sort of League average from deep I I love Mo vadner I’ve joked in the past that MO vogner is sort of like the fron vogner tax I apolog it was a joke at the time but I apologize for ever making the joke because it is so clearly not the case does it help keep Bron you know a little bit more comfortable and probably a bit happier probably it definitely doesn’t hurt but he is so much more than that and that is you know a little bit of an insult to even joke about because he just is so good and when you know there are certain games like the Boston game Black Friday the inseason tournament game I think he had like 25 points just dominated Boston quite frankly and he can have those types of games every once in a while and again just like the agitation and the energy that he brings each and every night he’s just super important to this team 100% agree it’s it’s no secret if you’ve listened to me on this show or postgame live I’m a huge Mo Vagner fan have been for really a while um I I just yeah super happy with him this season you talk about the fact that his minutes were down by a couple minutes you know per game this season if you if you take a look with that in mind kind of his per 36 numbers like statistically in a lot of categories this was his best season ever um the exceptions would be like rebounding you know he didn’t quite rebound as well as he has in the past and things like that but uh yeah I mean just across the board I I thought he was great and again you talked about not just statistically you can mention that but his presence on the floor this season um not just with the team right but he’s he’s like jaying in a and in in a sense where like he loves playing at home like the moments especially in the playoffs where he’s getting the crowd into it like that’s worth something that’s that’s not nothing you know um so you have that again you know his impact on the team I do think he is a glue guy you know not just on the floor playing basketball but in the locker room behind the scenes uh he’s a guy you really want to have in your corner right but then yeah on the court I mean you have to be super happy with him you talked about defense again I agree I thought it was his best defensive you know performance that we’ve seen in the two and a half years or so that we’ve got to see him play basketball um part of it was you know having Jonathan Isaac next to him for a lot of those possessions might have helped you know he helps make anyone look like a better Defender but it worked like that pairing worked when those guys were on the floor together it was good so yeah I I agree with you shooting could be better um but you know even that this was his second best shooting year you know percentage wise of his career let’s not forget Mo’s been around a while you know what is this uh SE seven and a half eight seasons now he’s been in League seven seasons whatever it is I mean that’s that’s a long time you know Mo’s getting old is Mo our old Mo’s our oldest Center he’s our oldest Center he’s the old guy in the center you know category so he’s been around a while so for him to be around this long and still putting up some of his best numbers it’s super impressive I’m super happy he’s here um yeah I’m a big mo mo Vagner fan and yeah I was I was really happy with what we saw this season I did just want to go through his his a postseason stats not great uh played in seven games 15 minutes per game 6.3 points 4.4 rebound bs3 assists 0.9 steals point4 blocks 44% from the floor 22% from behind the arc 51% almost 52% on twos and an effective field goal percentage of 47.2 shot 58% from the free throw line again a lot of guys you look at their playoff numbers compared to their regular season numbers don’t really look all that great and I am going to chalk that up to just Mo for most of these guys it was their first experience into the playoffs I think they’ll learn from this they’ll get better moving forward now next year we’re in the playoffs we have the same issue then we can start going like all right Pao playoff Riser this guy playoff Faller like we’ll have to sort of see what that looks like for me maybe this is too generous I gave Mo Vagner an a I just think he just so far exceeded my expectations of what he was going to look like this year and the way that he stepped up in Wendell’s absence he was just really really good yeah I had a B+ so we’re pretty close there yeah I thought he was great um yeah I really can’t speak highly enough about him and glad he’s going to be sticking around at least you know for another season at least but hopefully a long time with him and him and frons together I think why not why not why not have them together and I think I think we’ll talk about frons obviously later but you know next episode but I think Mo genuinely likes being here you know we could say that about a lot of guys but I feel like even just watching his Instagram story I don’t know if you got to see that um a couple days ago even just kind of his recap of the season I mean it was like 25 slides like it was so many pictures but the captions and stuff that he was writing was like so heartfelt like he loves getting to do this um you know it’s it’s really cool and he’s he’s a great guy too actually I do want to share uh a friend of mine is a Cleveland Fan and so obviously you know over the course of that series we were texting back and forth and and he was asking like he was like dude I can’t stand Mo VOR man I can’t stand and I was like oh he loves that you can’t stand him like that’s his goal like he mission accomplished and he was asking he was like is he is he just like this all the time like is he just a horrible person I was like I don’t know him personally I mean we’ve got to be around him like a media day and stuff and we know people that do know him personally was like by all it accounts he is a the kindest dude like the nicest guy the most like well spoken and everything but yeah when he gets on the court he wants to get under your skin that’s what he does and he loves it and so anyway I’m a Big Mo Vagner fan I love that my friend can’t stand him I think it’s great and so yeah it’s it’s pretty cool but B+ that’s that’s all I to say B+ for me my favorite element of that aspect of Mo’s game is that he doesn’t do it in like the Patrick Beverly like in your face kind of stuff like getting underneath your skin like doing it in a in like an arrogant Way by any means it’s all very subtle as if he’s trying to act like it’s not even happening even though everything that he’s doing is very intentional I think there’s a a a misconception that he’s somehow like a dirty player right he’s so far from that he’s just annoying y he’s purposefully annoying to the opponent but by no means is he like a dirty or even like an overly physical player right it’s just like he’s just always there you know every second that he’s on the floor uh so yeah I I love him and I know we’ve talked about this but you know maybe newer you know listeners of the show that maybe aren’t as familiar with Mo vogner but he just always when the team is playing really well or when the team is is is playing really poorly when the team just sort of average maybe this isn’t as valuable as a trait but those two extremes his ability to bring these guys back to the middle like Hey we’re not as good as we are right now but we’re not as bad as we are right now either and the way that he’s always able to speak to that and just like really articulate the way that he’s thinking and the way that he’s communicating with his teammates has always been really impressive to me and yeah there’s guys like Gary and and Joe Eng and other veterans in the locker room but like he and and fron I I I would guess it’s probably due to their upbringing but those guys have such a a like grounded perspective you know really really down to earth very very levelheaded and I I know if he wants to be moer will absolutely be a head coach in the NBA someday just he’s obviously a smart basketball player but just like the way that he’s able to lead the the guys around him I could see as he ages uh you know a younger team like really buying into to the way that he does things kind of like a mosy in to a certain degree yeah I one more thing that I just have on on him that you you said this and made me think of this I feel like Mo vogner you talk about you know how he can balance the team out you know too high too low so many times this season like this team felt had moments where they felt you know down or they got off to a slow start whatever and mo Vagner would come into the game and lift it up and quite literally be a part of turning the game around now again part of that was he was part of a bench unit that did that so often throughout the season right so maybe not 100% of the credit goes to him but I think a big chunk of it went to him on a lot of occasions where maybe he didn’t have the best statistical night but the energy the the effort was there enough to help Elevate this team out of a slow start or whatever and then on the flip side like he had several games maybe more than the other two guys we’re going to talk about today where I felt like he almost single-handedly contributed to a win like even though it was short spurts you know 15 20 minutes a game at times there were so many times I can remember getting on the postgame live and and saying like Mo Vagner was the reason you were in this game at the end or got close to a win or won the game and it’s again it’s just a testament he makes the most out of what he’s given he’s still not he’s not going to be given 30 35 minutes a game probably ever in his career but he makes most of what he’s given he knows his role he accepts his role he Embraces it and that’s you know what just makes him a great teammate and a great member of this team and to your point about his impact in that second unit I think we a guy that we’re going to talk about in The Next Episode Joe Eng Les we probably look at Joe Engles a lot differently if it wasn’t for the connection that he had with Mo and the way that those guys played off each other so yeah obviously we’ll talk more about Joe Engles in the next episode as we talk about the forwards well let’s move on let’s talk about Goa betaz so 24 year old season here uh played in 62 games he started 33 games you know large chunk when Wendell Carter Jr was out of the lineup he averaged five points per game 4.6 rebounds 1.3 assists a half steal 1.2 blocks per game shot 60% from the floor 14% from Deep we want to see that uh get a little bit better there go I’d rather it be zero okay take zero zero attempts is more like it uh 63.6% on TW and had an effective field goal percentage of 60.8 shot 65% from the free throw line rebound numbers were down a little bit this year played about the same you know minutes per game but assist steals blocks field goal percentage effective field goal percentage all over uh compared to last year goo was another guy that I just didn’t know really where he was going to fit into the lineup whether he was going to be that second Center whether it was going to be mo Vagner uh and if everybody was healthy is this guy even going to be a guy that really sees the floor only played in 17 games last year was okay I guess in those minutes 17 games played 15 minutes per game uh but I just didn’t really know what to expect out of Goa and when Wendell went down a lot of us were like okay here we go again it’s G to be you know Marquel goes out at the same time but great this is going to be last season all over again where you struggle coming out of the gate due to injuries but the way that Mo and Goa stepped up um and I mean I know we talked about Anthony black in the last episode but Anthony black as well and really like just this team played arguably their best basketball of the season during that stretch where Mo and Goa baz were getting the majority of the minutes so for me uh it it did fall off like you saw as the year went on some of his shortcomings and he didn’t contribute on a consistent basis as much as Mo voger did uh but I I thought gogu was really good this year yeah me too I part of this is actually a shout out to Jamal Mosley for pulling that you know move when when Dell goes out I mean there a lot of question marks you know when that first happened again we had only seen Goa for 17 games last season and so when Mosley made that call and it was like I don’t know we got Mo Vagner right there what are we doing and obviously it worked out fine uh starting him for for all those games but yeah I mean Goa a bit of a mystery coming into the season again I know we saw him for 17 games last year but it towards the end of the season and we were didn’t really know what we had and so I think first off it’s still funny he’s 24 years old that is the oldest looking 24y old I’ve ever seen in my life are you kidding me that that dude’s beard and chest hair crawling out of his jersey every night I mean come on dude looks like he’s older than me uh so it’s surprising to hear that he’s 24 every time I read that it’s crazy but yeah I mean you you you can’t fault him for what he did right the thing with Goa is you know what Goa is like you know exactly what he is you know what he’s going to bring you you know what he’s not and he doesn’t try to be anything other than that which I I can always appreciate that is he what this team needs as a starting center that’s debatable right like he’s he’s not necessarily a rim Runner he’s not he’s going to stretch the floor but he does things certain things well good rim protector good rebounder you know maybe good as a stretch you know when he’s when he’s challenged with that he can rebound well um so yeah again he knows his strengths knows his weaknesses plays to that and so I can’t really fault him for that again some people were calling for him to play late in the season some people calling for him to play in the playoffs against Jared Allen and Evan Mobley is that a stretch if you ask me I I think maybe but at the same time I can’t really fault people for saying that when they saw him play as well as he did with the lineup That was out there you know while Wendell was out so yeah uh I I like Goa um is he more than a third string Center I don’t know is he a starter I don’t think so is he a second string Center You could argue that um but yeah that’s kind of where where I sit with Goa yeah I uh I gave Goa a B on the year I don’t know about you yeah I I I yes I’ll give it a b as well I was going to go B minus but I I’ll go with you as well on this I’ll say B I think it’s deserved um I don’t hate the B minus well yeah I mean it’s it’s hard because I think when he was asked to do like what else did you want Goa to do in that stretch you know he he played as well as he could we were winning games and so I think to give him less than that might not might be a little harsh um but the the reason why I was going to add the minus was when he was given opportunities in the second half of the year which again is not fair to him because they weren’t consistent you know and so I recognize that I recognize that but the second half of the Year there were some times where he came into games and was absolutely cooked right on both ends and so I don’t want to fault him for that again what he did in the first chunk of the year was way more significant for our season than at the end so I think the the B minus would be too harsh I’m gonna also give him a b okay last but not least Wendell Carter Jr uh I I want to go in and preface this like we’re going to look at some game stuff and also look at some per 36 just because I really want to like fairly assess and compare Wendell season to the year that he had last year and um even if you go back to two seasons ago like after you know the the 2021 2022 season I was like could this guy eventually maybe be like a fringe Allstar someday because he had just improved so much and had played so well that season uh but let’s talk about Wendell this year 24 year old age season uh appeared in 55 games started in 40 eight of them played 25.6 minutes per game averaged 11 points 6.9 rebounds 1.7 assists point6 steals a half block a game shot 52.5% from the floor 37.4% from behind the arc had uh effective field goal percentage of 60% shot 62.6% from two 69.4% from the free throw line Wendell obviously the rough start to the season just like we preface with Marquel when Dell broke the hand early in the year and then seemed to reinjure that at some point we didn’t really get clarity of if it was fully healed when he came back or if it was reag graved and and when that occurred we don’t really have all the details there but again the way that we talked about Marquel is if you’re able to play we’re just going to try to evaluate the games that you were deemed healthy enough to play and he does get credit 100% for playing through that injury and and playing through pain and and trying to you know still contribute to his team all of that being said I think for most people Wendell played below expectations this season Kevin how do you feel yeah I 100% agree it’s hard though knowing that he played with an injury pretty I mean literally the entire season right I mean this happened what was it the fifth game of the season that Utah game and so while yes 100% agreed definitely played below what was expected of him how much of that is due to injury there’s no way for us to know right there’s no way for us to know about that um but it makes it hard it makes it hard to judge you know Wendell in his season with that in mind but I mean you can’t really argue with with that you know I mean the trajectory that we saw him on you know if you follow that you think this season like you talked about I mean should should have been a step up and especially considering the guys around him all you know some of the guys around him taking a step up and you know making the playoffs and all those things um but yeah it’s it’s hard not to be disappointed again there’s a big old asterisk if you ask me because of the injury but yeah the first thought I definitely have about the season would be it it did not meet the expectations that I and so many other magic fans had for him yeah and it is difficult right because like even if you’re going to argue that oh maybe the injury didn’t reoccur until you know the season was almost over nobody knows that but what I do know is that even from the moment that he came back he didn’t look the same like first you know few games of the Season like I don’t I don’t think anybody had like major issues with the way that he played I remember you know he looked really good obviously opening night uh but you know breaks his hand you know four or five games into the season but then comes back and just we’re like okay this guy does not look the same wasn’t playing with the same energy wasn’t playing with the same physicality defensively and hey if you’re playing with a broken hand for the entire year it would make sense that you’re not going to play with a ton of physicality I think if I was accounting for the injury it’s hard to just it’s it’s honestly it’s hard to give him a grade right like I almost want to say like incomplete the injury is such a wild card and is such um like it has to factor into your thinking if he’s playing with a broken hand all year then he gets a higher grade but based off of Just strictly his performance his level of production and the numbers I gave W DS C he he just did not come anywhere close close to exceeding the expectations that I had for him this year and you know if somebody’s going to argue oh I would give him a C+ or even maybe lower than that I could see a path to that argument yeah for me I had a c minus and I’m going to stick with the minus this time um just because it’s it’s hard to look past it and and again this is no fault of Wendell like this is not me or Jonathan either like we’re not sitting here picking apart the person like obviously like him playing through that is a testament to his you know his character as far as you know who he wants to be on the basketball court and stuff but on the flip side of this Jonathan you know injuries I mean is he officially an injury-prone player you know I mean like he had a I think last season was pretty he was pretty healthy right7 games 54 started 54 he dealt with the planner fasciitis a lot last year oh I forgot that was yeah that was last year yeah so I mean again this is not faulting him but this is a consistent thing and so that I take that into into he never played more than 62 games and that was two years ago yeah yeah so I mean that’s yeah that I mean 44 his rookie year 43 the second year and some of these are are due to covid obviously the co shorten season uh 54 games 32 games uh or I’m sorry no 44 43 54 the 32 and and 22 are part of the year that he was traded so 44 43 54 uh 62 5755 mhm yeah so I factor all that in right and so this is not a oneoff season where an injury you know takes its toll on that the fact this is a consistent pattern it’s concerning and again that’s not that’s not a mark on him as a person that’s not even that part is not even a mark on him as a player I think that’s a separate conversation but I think that the injury-prone stuff draws a lot of question marks about him as the starting center of this team and and I think it’s interesting if you ask any magic fan that knows what they’re talking about you ask what were the two biggest weaknesses of this team this season in one order or another it’s a you know a lead guard presence and it’s the center position and so you know and I think for both positions honestly it’s not just starters I think it’s also trickles down past that you know while I think you know mo and Goa obviously you are probably maybe a little bit of a stronger backup situation than our lead guards but but I think those are the two weakest weakest spots on this team and I think you know most if not all magic fans would agree in some order it’s the lead guard in a center position and so Wendell being the starting center I think might be one of the leading question marks of this team in this offseason and Beyond and so again it’s not just about him as a person actually say it’s not at all about him as a person there are question marks about him as a player and certainly question marks about his durability because that can take a toll on a team over the course of you know several seasons in a row yeah I think it’s no surprise when people start talking even going back to January February approach ing the trade deadline who are guys that you would like to see the magic go after oh tus Jones and then you know maybe we’re looking ahead to the summer we’re looking at Nick Claxton and now you know there’s the talks of Malik Monk and Isaiah hartenstein we’re looking for better guard play we’re looking for a more solid you know perhaps Dependable starting center you know part of the the issue is yeah Wendell missed a lot of time last year and he missed even more time this year right you know you have to take all that into consideration moving on to the playoffs where he played 26.4 minutes per game didn’t start the first two games because ji was starting at the five but started the the final five games of the series 7.6 points per game points were down rebounds were down assists were down field goal percentage three-point percentage effective field goal percentage all were down again not going to beat up a ton on Wendell for you know the his playoff performance because a lot of guys struggled in the playoffs what I do want to take a look at however are his per 36 numbers so I’m going to go back to last season per 36 average 18 a half points per game 10.6 rebounds 2.8 assists 0.6 steals point7 blocks this year per 36 points rebound assists all down 15.4 points 9.8 rebounds 2.4 assists so he just was per 36 minutes was less impactful this year how much is like this sort of like new role with Jaylen taking a step up offensively cuz last last year it sort of felt like Wendell was you know maybe that third or fourth option offensively behind Paulo behind fron Jaylen taking that step this year like took a little bit offensively away from Wendell um but apart from that like we need him to be the lead rebounder on this team which he was not we need him uh you know to help facilitate the ball which ball not being in his hands quite as much uh is definitely a detriment there but just by all counts was less impactful and did not have the same level of production as he is in in recent years and you do have to ask how much of that was the hand injury but moving forward it’s also like hey we can’t continue to account for this guy being injured for 20 to 25 games each season I I just feel like it would be irresponsible to do that yeah and honestly I didn’t even mention this part of it when we were talking about him a second ago but I think at least for me and maybe a lot of other magic fans I think one of the biggest frustrations we have with Wendell even when he’s healthy is he’s just not a rebounding presence you know that’s just not who he is you know it’s not part of his game for whatever reason who knows I think he’s a physical enough body to where he could be um and so I think that’s part of why like optically magic fans are like why aren’t you getting the rebounds you’re a big body and all those things um and so I think that’s that’s part of why I think a lot of magic fans maybe had a hard time especially within this season and I think that’s why when you look you know on the internet what who do player who do fans want they want you know like you mentioned hardstein like what a rebounding machine he is and so I think that that might be part of why I think some magic fans are really having a hard time with him because again optically like when you’re watching this team and there are rebounds to be had it’s like man I just wish Wendell was a better rebounder the other stuff you know whatever you know we don’t we don’t need like you mentioned we don’t the ball’s not going to be in the center’s hands like that’s not what our team is built around we need a rebounder and we need someone that can protect the rim and those are two of Wendell’s weaker spots of his game right he’s absolutely not a rim protector and he’s not a great rebounder and so again all those things combined with his health and his dependability definitely begs the question about if he’s the long-term solution at Center yeah even when you start looking at we talk about Mo Goa wend Mo was the only center of the three that has a positive differential when it when you start looking at like their onoff stats like Wendell the team was uh almost one point worse with Wendell per 100 possessions with Wendell on the floor so those are all things that I think the the magic have to take into account but um yeah I mean I love Wendell was super high on him a couple of years ago like when when you go back and and look at what he was doing 15 points 10.5 rebounds a game 52% from the floor sure you love the fact that the three-point percentages is coming along like 37% from behind the arc is incredible um I think he has a ton of value there if he can stay healthy and he doesn’t have to give you 15 points per game but I think at bare minimum needs to be at 9 10 rebounds per game if you could tell me when Del is going to play even 65 games a year and is going to give you almost a double double every night while shooting 37% from behind the ark I I’m all in like that’s that’s fantastic that’s what we need uh but I just have real questions on whether you can depend on that moving forward and it’s no secret you know a a year or two ago he was looked at as one of the best contracts in the league y do I think by any means it’s a bad contract at this point no but I don’t really feel like he is one of the best contracts in the league at this point even at you know the the pretty conservative number of you know what is 12 or or 13 million a year I think it might even be less than that I think they front loaded that that contract so he’s probably around like 11 or 10 million and although that’s still a a good value contract by no means do I feel like it’s this steal you know that that it once was in large part due to the fact that you know his production has been somewhat decreasing over the past couple of years coupled with the fact of he struggles to stay available which is one of the the most important things so I do think what the magic need to address this offseason is the starting center position long-term and a lead guard if if Wendell is still on this team next year and he’s your full-time backup five you’re doing really freaking well yeah that’s that’s exactly what I was about to ask you Jonathan like let’s say the magic go out and get a starting five name it whoever it is Nick Clon Isaiah hartstein whoever you want it to be fill in the blank you people listening at home is there World in which when Del Carter accepts that role like he he did it in the playoffs right in the first couple well the end of the regular season first couple games of the playoffs you know with Jonathan Isaac starting and he seemed okay with it then and that’s on the biggest stage like you worked 82 games you know he didn’t play 82 games but you work through the whole season to get that point mentally knowing you are the starting center all of a sudden to have that change when the the lights got the brightest and if it bothered him he didn’t show it right so I’ll give him that but I guess that’s the question is like would he accept that role um and then the question on the center position as a whole like Mo Vagner is coming back like it’s it’s a$8 million Club option like team option I don’t see a world in which you know mo Vagner he’s coming back okay Goa on the other hand is a unrestricted probably will not be back right Goa more than likely will not be back and and not just because and and not because I don’t think the magic want him necessarily but I think he’s going to get paid more somewhere else I think that’s very possible I think the the times that Goa was able to see the the floor the times where he started improved himself I think made him valuable to certain teams out there and so good for him I’m happy for him he deserves it I would be surprised if go comes back so that being said it looks like magic will be signing a center it’s just a question is that the first center or the third center right so are we running it back with Wendell as your your top Center Mo as the backup and you’re signing a different third string Center or does that get moved around like are we starting starting or signing a starting center when Dell becomes the backup and then is Mo the third string Center all of a sudden or the other question becomes are you signing a center M’s the backup and Windell is dealt I think the center has the center position has maybe the most question marks for this offseason it’s very interesting I have no idea what to expect from Jeff and Anthony Parker so it’s definitely definitely going to be I think something with a lot of twists and turns but I will say I think most magic fans would not be happy if we just stayed Pat right Wendell Mo even if it’s go or whatever third string Center I think most magic fans would be pretty disappointed in that yeah I think each one of those possibilities that you laid out are all really feasible I could see a path to any one of those happening um with Wendell would he accept a starting role or a backup role rather to me he seems like he’s really built like uh bought into the culture here in Orlando we know that he’s a super High character kind of of guy I look at a guy like Cole Anthony who last year lost his starting job if Cole Anthony didn’t you know huff and puff and pout about it I don’t think anybody has the right to do that that’s good point if you’re really bought into this team and you believe in in the the culture and and you’re echoing all of the the sentiments and the mantras if you’re asked to go to the bench for the the better of the team who are and I’m not saying Wendell is going to do this but who are you to say no I’m not going to accept the starting role like Cole Anthony did it no problem because he understood that hey if this is what’s best for the team and this is what everybody agrees is best for the team then whatever I I’m all in so I do think that there’s a a realistic possibility if the magic were to bring in somebody who they expect to be the starting center that Wendel might not be in love with the idea but if he is really buil like bought into the team the way that I believe he is and I I do think he wants to be here long term and sort of see this out cuz he’s been here years literally since the very beginning of this rebuild you know the the part of the the niik levich trade so he probably wants to see this thing out and I don’t think anybody would would blame him for that obviously again guys aren’t going to be in love with being sent to the bench but I think if he can be convinced and I I think this team could easily make the case that hey this is what’s best for the team and this is going to help us get to that next level I I I wouldn’t have a lot of difficulty seeing him buy into that yeah and the last thing I’ll mention about his status is Jeff welman over the course of you know these last couple years since since the rebuild has really solidified you know with drafting Powell and everything has not shaken things up right he has kept the score together um I think for a lot of reasons I think for you know camaraderie and like the team culture and morale and everything probably the the leading reason for that at some point whether it’s now or later he’s going to have to be a little bit ruthless and have to make some decisions that are you know when it comes to those things team culture and morale and all those things it’s going to be very very difficult to do right and and I think some magic fans aren’t going to enjoy it I think some of the players might not even really love it when when that day comes does it happen this offseason with Wendell I don’t know but you talk about his contract I mean that is an extremely tradable contract right it’s very trade I’m not saying they’re going to do it again I would be surprised if they did that honestly I’m not sure this the front office is ready to fully Rock the Boat yet um they haven’t shown that to be kind of how they operate and that certainly would if you trade Wendell that’s rocking the boat big time you know um but again that’s a very tradable contract he’s still got two years on it two full seasons before he’s unrestricted free agent in 26 so I’m not I’m not saying it’s going to happen I would probably predict it won’t happen but I’m saying it could happen you know so just to for worn magic fans those those that you know might be interested in that I think it’s possible especially looking at his contract it’s super tradeable yeah 11.9 million this coming year and then 10.8 the following year which would be the last of it of his uh contract and yeah going back to two years ago when he was you know making $14 million a year averaging 15 and 10 and then you’re looking at oh if this guy’s going to give you 15 and 10 for the next four years right if the guy was making 10.8 million averaging 15 and 10 then yeah that’s one of the best contracts in the league can he get back to that level of productivity I really have my doubts just given the way that it seems like the offense is going to be structured moving forward and just the fact that like hey he isn’t rebounding the ball the same way that he was a couple of seasons ago and he’s just got to be able to stay on the floor like that’s like ultimately what it comes down to with Wendell if he was going to give you the same level of of productivity healthy I think we all agree that he was probably hampered quite a bit by that injury this year so let’s just let’s say his his stats go up a little bit and he averages 12 and eight at 11.9 and 10.8 million if he was going to play 70 games a year then I like okay it’s it’s kind of hard to to move on from something like that but things have changed over the the course of the last couple of seasons and I do feel and I know you feel this and a lot of other magic fans feel that hey it is time to shake things up a little bit and take a big step forward this team proved that hey going into the last couple weeks of the Season we’re staring at the two seed and yes you look at injuries with Milwaukee and Miami and and Philadelphia but that happens to at least one or two teams every year right that was a big reason for me going into this season saying hey we’re at least going to make the play in or whatever because there’s always a team that isn’t quite as good as you thought they were going to be going into the season so uh yeah I agree with your sentiment it’s very interesting to see what’s going to happen with the the center position this year yeah uh but yeah that’s uh my grades for these guys I don’t really have anything else Kevin unless there’s something else that you want to touch on yeah only thing I was going to add was all this ties into what we’ve talked about on the show you know expectations are at a different level now right this team overachieved by a lot of measures this past season but that sets the bar to a different level and so does Jeff and that was that was bad English do Jeff and Anthony Parker believe that you keep this team together and they can make that next leap and and they can you know stay up with those expectations I would be surprised I would be surprised and so I I think this could be the summer they shake things up whether it’s the center position or not who knows but yeah definitely interesting all in all it’s tough you know we look at this whole Center position like there’s a lot of good this season you know but there’s also a lot a lot that was to be desired you know so it’s going to be interesting man I’m excited it’s crazy the the offseason is really like right around the corner I mean we’re like four weeks from the draft and then free agency right after that and so it’s going to be spicy I know that on some of the stuff we we might have an answer you like three weeks from now depending on how long the finals goes which which who knows it looks like it Boston Dallas looking like it it might be I don’t know exactly what’s going on with game three Dallas up six minutes to go in this game so all right well so we’ll have to see what happens there but yeah looking forward to all that looking forward to the offseason and looking forward to the next episode when we talk about our forwards we haven’t really had the chance to talk about Pao and frons and some of those guys yet so that’s going to be fun that’s going to be pretty interesting and chuma don’t forget chuma yeah how could I how could I forget chuma Kevin thank you for the reminder there in the the 17 chuma okk rookie cards that I uh have to try to do something with at some point but I think that’s going to do it for this one we’ll wrap this one up for Kevin Tucker this has been Jonathan Osborne you all have been listening to the six-man show and we will catch you guys next time see it thanks for listening to the Sixth Man Show be sure to subscribe on iTunes and Spotify to get new episodes downloaded directly to your phone if you enjoyed the show please take a minute to give us a five-star rating and a review it helps out the show a lot follow us on Twitter Instagram and Facebook @ 6man show we’ll catch you guys next time go magic let let’s go let’s go

Another big update on The Sixth Man Show’s future, plus we grade the performance for the Magic’s centers for this season.

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0:00 – Intro
1:24 – Show Update
14:20 – Patron Shoutout
16:27 – Center Grades

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