Hall-of-Famer Chipper Jones rants on ‘very frustrating’ time working with current Braves players as a hitting consultant
August 27, 2024
Hall-of-Famer Chipper Jones rants on ‘very frustrating’ time working with current Braves players as a hitting consultant
25 comments
old man yells at clouds
“I’m old school man, and it’s not going away. Working with the Braves for the last couple of years has been very frustrating,” Jones said recently on the “Casa de Klub” podcast. “Can’t stand giving away outs. I can’t stand strikeouts. Can’t deal with a guy on third, less than two outs, and hitting a ground ball to shortstop or second base.
“I can’t stand every once in a while not laying down a bunt for your best hitters. A hundred RBIs? So what. This is truly a ‘chicks dig the long ball’ kind of era.”
So is this an analytics vs old school or is this players wanting stats issue?
I’m convinced that the division in our society going forward between old and young is those that understand math and those that don’t.
we just had a season with arguably the best or second best offense of all time with mostly the same players before injuries. And he sounded pretty happy about it all last year.
Ton of guys get hurt, offense sucks butts, hitting consultant looks bad, hitting consultant gets mad. Loved chipper as a player but he’s not exactly a brains of the operation type guy…
The title makes it seem like Chipper has an issue with just the Braves, but reading the article makes it sound like he’s talking about a more league-wide issue.
I completely get it. It seems like baseball in general is trending more towards emphasizing the big moments like home runs and strike outs over generally smart baseball. Even the recent Maddux documentary seemed to show a lot of Maddux’s strikeouts when he was more of a groundball pitcher. They even showed one of Maddux’s games after the doc and it was one where he pitched a career high 14 Ks. Honestly, there are several games more impressive than that, especially his 78-pitch complete game.
Home runs and Ks make headlines though. Headlines translate to jersey and ticket sales. Maybe this is just me wearing my tinfoil hat a little too much, but it sure seems like the guys making the spreadsheets are building the playbook too.
He’s completely right
The headline is misleading.
He’s pointing out he has difference in philosophies and he would rather they drive the run in from 3rd with no outs vs trying to hit a 2 run jack every time up.
We call this out in the game threads all the time: Braves runner on 3rd less than 2 outs and we can’t score him. It’s a failure on the team.
He’s not hating on analytics as much as he’s pointing out it’s frustrating watching the Braves give outs and not take easy runs.
[deleted]
Last year I would have read this as old man grumpiness. But this year I think he’s onto something. I feel like Arcia is swinging for the fences every at bat and he’s not seeing the ball well enough to do that. Soler looks the same on some swings. I do think the guys in Chipper’s day were better at getting through a slump.
He’s correct. It’s not playing “small ball” as they have been calling it and always trying for the flashy runs.
Here’s my thing, I’m all for progression if it’s actually working. But guys have horrible averages and aren’t even hitting home runs. Hitting is way down. Are guys throwing harder than ever? Yes but they’re also worse at actual pitching. It’s irritating for fans of baseball as a whole who don’t go from 6 to midnight just cause a dude batting .175 hit a home run and struck out with runners in scoring position his other 3 at bats
It fucking kills me when brian doesn’t force guys to play small bat. Especially in the playoffs
Small ball is a lot more fun to watch. But the math favors this style unfortunately. And every team is trying to win more than play an entertaining style.
I get what he’s saying, and with hitters like Chipper they can have the best of the both worlds.
The issue is that a lot of guys just can’t adjust in the fly like that. Their approach is their approach and they’ve been taught that the metrics say they’ll have better long-term success with a particular style of hitting, and it’s not wrong.
Chipper is trying to teach changing the AB as the station dictates, and truthfully, he’s one of the best to ever do that. The philosophy on how to “manufacture” runs had flaws, too, such as giving away outs and sacrificing your best homerun odds to move a runner, but it’s just a difference in philosophies. Neither are totally wrong, and the last few years have shown that the team knows what they are doing on offense.
I don’t take this as old school vs new school but him talking about players having an extremely narrow view of the game and not executing situational baseball.
I personally enjoy baseball less watching all teams try to hit homers then every year in the playoffs they switch to base hits. The team that adapts to base hits seems to always win. Not sure why the teams are managed to hit the long balls to begin with. Or even on the other side with strike outs. Not sure who is making those decisions. If the goal is to win. I don’t think the managers would be concerned with clicks and jersey sales. But what do I know? Seems to me the best way to play would be putting the ball in play on defense and base hits on offense. But that’s why I am here and they are there. It is super boring tho. Watching little league really reminded what a great game it is.
I hate giving away outs too, which is why I don’t like sacrifice bunts
When I was younger I used to have an irrational fear of the Marlins when they had Juan Pierre and Luis Castillo at the top of their lineup.
Title is quite misleading. This conversation wasn’t about his work with the current Braves players, the podcaster asked him specifically if he enjoyed watching “this brand of baseball” or if he preferred the way it was played when he was in the league, and Chipper answered directly to that line of questioning.
Top 5 teams by SLG – BAL, NYY, BOS, LAD, AZ Top 5 teams by xSLG – NYY, BAL, ATL, KC, LAD Top 5 teams by EV – NYY, ATL, BAL, KC, LAD Top 5 teams by Hard Hit% – BAL, ATL, NYY, BOS, NYM Top 5 teams by Barrel/PA% – NYY, ATL, BAL, LAD, NYM
Top 5 teams by record – NYY, LAD, PHI, BAL, AZ
ATL has 70+ wins, KC has 70+ wins, BOS has 67 and NYM have 68.
Hitting the ball consistently hard equals success.
Imo, the thing that people confuse is that hitting the ball hard = trying to hit a HR. That’s just not true. We’ve seen 100+MPH ground balls the other way. Approach means trying to ensure the ball goes a certain direction but you can still hit the ball hard and give yourself and your team a better chance at getting hits/scoring runs.
For these same teams, here’s the batted ball profile
The Braves have the 12th highest FB% in MLB. You can argue the Braves pull the ball too much (44% pull rate is the highest in MLB but not by much. KC has 43, CLE 42, AZ 42) but I haven’t seen anything that suggests having a more even spread equals more success. Of the top 10 teams in pull% 3 are not in the playoffs as of today (CIN, SFG, TOR).
If anyone is curious, SDP, OAK, MIL, STL, BAL, and COL are the best teams going up the middle and CHW, NYY, TOR, CHI, PHI are the best are going oppo. A mixed bag of good and bad teams.
Analytics always tells you the optimal way to play the game to maximize/minimize scoring overall, not necessarily in every situation. So you might like a hitter who has a swing/approach to hit the ball to the right side of the infield to get a runner on third home – and then old-schoolers talk about how great that is. BUT you basically never hear that same batter criticized hitting a single on a mistake pitch instead of a double or HR with a runner on first because his swing wasn’t designed for power. You have to look at the entire picture.
Wow, also in this interview he dispels what I had thought was fact: He didn’t name his son Shea because he owned the Mets/loved playing at Shea stadium—he played against Shea Hillebrand and just thought it was a cool name. 😮
Well signing up as a hitting consultant on a team built to hit dingers probably made it worse lol
I like how everyone that goes on these rants says they’re old school, that way I don’t need to listen to or read the rest.
It’s all situational. Is their pitcher unhittable? Does he throw 102? Who is on deck and in the hole? How fast is the runner at 3rd? Are they expecting a bunt or not at all? I think the answers to those questions can create scenarios that make sense to bunt. Is the guy on 3rd Willie Mays Hayes? Are your struggling 8 & 9 hitters up next? Is Chapman throwing gas at the top of his game? There are times when bunting, if your guys practice it and honed the ability, it’s the correct call. I think Chipper was irritated because it’s not even in their lexicon. They don’t practice it, so it’s never an option, even when it’s the right move.
25 comments
old man yells at clouds
“I’m old school man, and it’s not going away. Working with the Braves for the last couple of years has been very frustrating,” Jones said recently on the “Casa de Klub” podcast. “Can’t stand giving away outs. I can’t stand strikeouts. Can’t deal with a guy on third, less than two outs, and hitting a ground ball to shortstop or second base.
“I can’t stand every once in a while not laying down a bunt for your best hitters. A hundred RBIs? So what. This is truly a ‘chicks dig the long ball’ kind of era.”
So is this an analytics vs old school or is this players wanting stats issue?
I’m convinced that the division in our society going forward between old and young is those that understand math and those that don’t.
we just had a season with arguably the best or second best offense of all time with mostly the same players before injuries. And he sounded pretty happy about it all last year.
Ton of guys get hurt, offense sucks butts, hitting consultant looks bad, hitting consultant gets mad. Loved chipper as a player but he’s not exactly a brains of the operation type guy…
The title makes it seem like Chipper has an issue with just the Braves, but reading the article makes it sound like he’s talking about a more league-wide issue.
I completely get it. It seems like baseball in general is trending more towards emphasizing the big moments like home runs and strike outs over generally smart baseball. Even the recent Maddux documentary seemed to show a lot of Maddux’s strikeouts when he was more of a groundball pitcher. They even showed one of Maddux’s games after the doc and it was one where he pitched a career high 14 Ks. Honestly, there are several games more impressive than that, especially his 78-pitch complete game.
Home runs and Ks make headlines though. Headlines translate to jersey and ticket sales. Maybe this is just me wearing my tinfoil hat a little too much, but it sure seems like the guys making the spreadsheets are building the playbook too.
He’s completely right
The headline is misleading.
He’s pointing out he has difference in philosophies and he would rather they drive the run in from 3rd with no outs vs trying to hit a 2 run jack every time up.
We call this out in the game threads all the time: Braves runner on 3rd less than 2 outs and we can’t score him. It’s a failure on the team.
He’s not hating on analytics as much as he’s pointing out it’s frustrating watching the Braves give outs and not take easy runs.
[deleted]
Last year I would have read this as old man grumpiness. But this year I think he’s onto something. I feel like Arcia is swinging for the fences every at bat and he’s not seeing the ball well enough to do that. Soler looks the same on some swings. I do think the guys in Chipper’s day were better at getting through a slump.
He’s correct. It’s not playing “small ball” as they have been calling it and always trying for the flashy runs.
Here’s my thing, I’m all for progression if it’s actually working. But guys have horrible averages and aren’t even hitting home runs. Hitting is way down. Are guys throwing harder than ever? Yes but they’re also worse at actual pitching. It’s irritating for fans of baseball as a whole who don’t go from 6 to midnight just cause a dude batting .175 hit a home run and struck out with runners in scoring position his other 3 at bats
It fucking kills me when brian doesn’t force guys to play small bat. Especially in the playoffs
Small ball is a lot more fun to watch. But the math favors this style unfortunately. And every team is trying to win more than play an entertaining style.
I get what he’s saying, and with hitters like Chipper they can have the best of the both worlds.
The issue is that a lot of guys just can’t adjust in the fly like that. Their approach is their approach and they’ve been taught that the metrics say they’ll have better long-term success with a particular style of hitting, and it’s not wrong.
Chipper is trying to teach changing the AB as the station dictates, and truthfully, he’s one of the best to ever do that. The philosophy on how to “manufacture” runs had flaws, too, such as giving away outs and sacrificing your best homerun odds to move a runner, but it’s just a difference in philosophies. Neither are totally wrong, and the last few years have shown that the team knows what they are doing on offense.
I don’t take this as old school vs new school but him talking about players having an extremely narrow view of the game and not executing situational baseball.
I personally enjoy baseball less watching all teams try to hit homers then every year in the playoffs they switch to base hits. The team that adapts to base hits seems to always win. Not sure why the teams are managed to hit the long balls to begin with. Or even on the other side with strike outs. Not sure who is making those decisions. If the goal is to win. I don’t think the managers would be concerned with clicks and jersey sales. But what do I know? Seems to me the best way to play would be putting the ball in play on defense and base hits on offense. But that’s why I am here and they are there. It is super boring tho. Watching little league really reminded what a great game it is.
I hate giving away outs too, which is why I don’t like sacrifice bunts
When I was younger I used to have an irrational fear of the Marlins when they had Juan Pierre and Luis Castillo at the top of their lineup.
Title is quite misleading. This conversation wasn’t about his work with the current Braves players, the podcaster asked him specifically if he enjoyed watching “this brand of baseball” or if he preferred the way it was played when he was in the league, and Chipper answered directly to that line of questioning.
Top 5 teams by SLG – BAL, NYY, BOS, LAD, AZ
Top 5 teams by xSLG – NYY, BAL, ATL, KC, LAD
Top 5 teams by EV – NYY, ATL, BAL, KC, LAD
Top 5 teams by Hard Hit% – BAL, ATL, NYY, BOS, NYM
Top 5 teams by Barrel/PA% – NYY, ATL, BAL, LAD, NYM
Top 5 teams by record – NYY, LAD, PHI, BAL, AZ
ATL has 70+ wins, KC has 70+ wins, BOS has 67 and NYM have 68.
Hitting the ball consistently hard equals success.
Imo, the thing that people confuse is that hitting the ball hard = trying to hit a HR. That’s just not true. We’ve seen 100+MPH ground balls the other way. Approach means trying to ensure the ball goes a certain direction but you can still hit the ball hard and give yourself and your team a better chance at getting hits/scoring runs.
For these same teams, here’s the batted ball profile
NYY – 19% line drive, 42% ground ball, 37% fly ball
LAD – 21% LD, 39% GB, 39% FB
PHI – 20% LD, 42% GB, 37% FB
BAL – 19% LD, 39% GB, 41% FB
AZ – 19% LD, 43% GB, 37% FB
ATL – 20% LD, 41% GB, 38% FB
The Braves have the 12th highest FB% in MLB. You can argue the Braves pull the ball too much (44% pull rate is the highest in MLB but not by much. KC has 43, CLE 42, AZ 42) but I haven’t seen anything that suggests having a more even spread equals more success. Of the top 10 teams in pull% 3 are not in the playoffs as of today (CIN, SFG, TOR).
If anyone is curious, SDP, OAK, MIL, STL, BAL, and COL are the best teams going up the middle and CHW, NYY, TOR, CHI, PHI are the best are going oppo. A mixed bag of good and bad teams.
Analytics always tells you the optimal way to play the game to maximize/minimize scoring overall, not necessarily in every situation. So you might like a hitter who has a swing/approach to hit the ball to the right side of the infield to get a runner on third home – and then old-schoolers talk about how great that is. BUT you basically never hear that same batter criticized hitting a single on a mistake pitch instead of a double or HR with a runner on first because his swing wasn’t designed for power. You have to look at the entire picture.
Wow, also in this interview he dispels what I had thought was fact: He didn’t name his son Shea because he owned the Mets/loved playing at Shea stadium—he played against Shea Hillebrand and just thought it was a cool name. 😮
Well signing up as a hitting consultant on a team built to hit dingers probably made it worse lol
I like how everyone that goes on these rants says they’re old school, that way I don’t need to listen to or read the rest.
It’s all situational. Is their pitcher unhittable? Does he throw 102? Who is on deck and in the hole? How fast is the runner at 3rd? Are they expecting a bunt or not at all? I think the answers to those questions can create scenarios that make sense to bunt. Is the guy on 3rd Willie Mays Hayes? Are your struggling 8 & 9 hitters up next? Is Chapman throwing gas at the top of his game? There are times when bunting, if your guys practice it and honed the ability, it’s the correct call. I think Chipper was irritated because it’s not even in their lexicon. They don’t practice it, so it’s never an option, even when it’s the right move.